A Binational Israel-Palestine

[Equinox]

A Binational Israel-Palestine
October 10, 2003
By Helena Cobban

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In South Africa, once supporters of apartheid figured out that no amount of repressing or fencing off blacks and no amount of punishing military raids against the country's neighbors could bring them peace, they finally settled for that good old standby of democracies: a one-person-one-vote system within a unitary state.

That wasn't an easy decision for white - or black - South Africans. On both sides there were centuries of hostility and harm to overcome before they could accept the "other" kind of folk as fellow-citizens. But by 1990, the situation had become intolerable - for white as well as black South Africans. The country's transformation to democracy was difficult for some, and, as in all democracies, problems remain. But in general, it was overwhelmingly successful and deeply inspiring.

So why not in Israel/Palestine? If Israeli settlers want to stay in the West Bank - let them stay! But if they want to stay there and be part of a community built on long-term peace, then they cannot refuse to give equal rights within the whole of an expanded state of Israel/Palestine to all Palestinians who want to be a part of it.

The end of the dream of a monocultural "Jewish state"? Yes. But in the Holy Land, as in South Africa, it could be the start of a hopeful new chapter in human history. For Jewish Israelis, as for Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking South Africans, they could still be living in a multicultural state in which their language, their culture, and their religion would be fully embraced.

The idea of a binational (Arab/Hebrew) state in historic Palestine was first proposed in the 1930s by Jewish thinkers like Martin Buber and Judah Magness. Now, increasing numbers of intellectuals on both sides are discussing it anew.

At a time of so much despair in the Middle East, this idea - based on the deepest concepts of human equality and respect among peoples - might give us all fresh hope.

From: MIFTA.org

[Fight_n_back]

1. It takes a lot of sack

to lose a fifty year long war and then make surrender demands on the victors.

There already is a multicultural democracy in the Middle East, it is called Israel. If Jews were allowed to vote in any Arab countires then they may not need to be so stubborn about demanding self rule, whic is of course what Palestinains are demanding but somehow that is prgressive and Jews ruling themselves isn't. Interesting "logic".

[LevChernyi]

27. If Israel was really a multicultural democracy..

There would be nothing but excitement at the though of reunification. That people have a problem with the idea at all shows that it's not a democratic state but a demographic state.

[Muddleoftheroad]

29. Fantasyland continued

Arabs get to vote in Israel, but you knew that.

[LevChernyi]

30. only if there aren't enough of them apparently

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. You want Israel to invite in Arabs just to make you happy?

Israel is homeland to the Jewish people -- people who share the same religious, historical, cultural and, if you go back far enough, national heritage. Sorry if they don't have enough Arabs to suit you.

Neither does Japan. Should Japan changes its demographics and invite in more Arab Muslims to make you happy?

[LevChernyi]

34. The ones they ran off at gunpoint

yes, certainly.

[Fight_n_back]

36. Lets trade

the number of Jews forced out of the West Bank is roughly equal to the number of Arabs who fled southern Israel.

What Palestinains want now is return for anyone who ever had a telephone conversation with anyone who is related to anyone that might have known or read about anyone who ever pitched a tent in what is now Israel

[Darranar]

37. That's not true...

600,000 Jews were in Palestine when the Jewish state was created.

About an equal number of Arabs FLED the land and became refugees.

[Fight_n_back]

40. THATS not True!

It was about 150,000 in 1948. More fled in the early 50's. It is nowehere near the three million the Palestinians want to return.

You might be confusing that 600,000 number with how many Jews were forced out of the surrounding Arab countries at the time.

Ironic that the surrounding nations made Israel even MORE Jewish by expelling so many Jews.

[Darranar]

42. 150,000 seems awfully low to me...

I'm also including all of those who currently live in the WB and Gaza but did live in what is now Israel.

I still think your figures are wrong, but I have to check on that.

[Fight_n_back]

43. Be careful

there a lot of agendas involved in the counting. There are a lot of hanging chads.

[Darranar]

44. From us-israel.org:

Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947-49. The last census was taken by the British in 1945. It found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war. In 1947, a total of 809,100 Arabs lived in the same area.1 This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure — 472,000, and calculated that only about 360,000 Arab refugees required aid.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html

That website is a piece of right-wing junk, but their figures are still higher then yours.

[Darranar]

45. More from us-israel.org...

After ignoring Israeli warnings to stay out of the war, King Hussein launched an attack on Jerusalem, Israel’s capital. UNRWA estimated that during the fighting 175,000 of its registrants fled for a second time and approximately 350,000 fled for the first time. About 200,000 moved to Jordan, 115,000 to Syria and approximately 35,000 left Sinai for Egypt. Most of the Arabs who left came from the West Bank.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf14.html#r

This is for the Six Day War, but it still matters.

[Darranar]

46. From Electronic Intifadah:

Hansen told his audience at the American University: “In the past fifty years, the registered refugee population has grown over four fold from around 875,000 in 1953 to 4.08 million in 2003. Meanwhile, the primary emphasis of Agency services to the refugees shifted from relief to human development. Yet, due to the ongoing strife in the occupied Palestinian territory, the Agency is forced to provide emergency relief alongside its regular programmes.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article1966.shtml

Because of the difference of five years (from 1948 - 1953) this estimate might be off somewhat in ragrd to 1948.

[Darranar]

47. From Middle East Intelligence Bulletin...

Scattered throughout the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, the survivors and descendents of the roughly 700,000 Palestinians who fled their homes during Israel's War of Independence are believed to number up to 4.5 million. Previous polls have shown that the vast majority of them are deeply committed to the "right of return."<3> Since a mass influx of Palestinians would threaten the Jewish character of the state, the Israeli government and public have consistently opposed making this concession.

http://www.meib.org/articles/0308_pal1.htm

[Fight_n_back]

48. Quite frankly

I don't give a damn about any numnbers anyway. I can't go back to Russia and claim any land. The Lakota can't go back to Yellowstone. What the Palestinians want is unprecedented.

The dozen or so Armenians that weren't eliminated by Turks don't get to show up with an IKEA catalog and move into someones aprtment.

[Darranar]

49. Just compensation...

is neccesary, IMO, and would also aid the peace process.

Even if it hasn't always happened.

[LevChernyi]

54. no precedent?

There is a very obvious precedent staring right at you. The zionist movement. Apparently it was quite successful.

[Fight_n_back]

57. Not close to the same

and you know it. The Palestinians in the West Bank are welcome to start acting like a democracy, raise money from rich brethren and bring all the refugees back home to the West Bank and Gaza. Unfortunatley when they raise money it either gets diverted into Arafat's Swiss Bank Account or into a Hamas bomber.

The only thing close is the compensation Germany offered to survivors but the neveroffered to give back the business that were stolen or the homes that were seized.

It is not closed to the same.

[LevChernyi]

59. You haven't distinguished why

You have thrown invective around about corruption and terrorists (the same could have been done to zionist terrorists and accusations of corruption are certainly nothing new) but you haven't said why I "know" they are different things.

The only difference of note is that the Palestinians had absolutely nothing to do with creating the Jewish diaspora and the Israeli's are directly responsible for creating a brand new group of zionists.

[Fight_n_back]

60. I can't figure out

if you are being confusing on purpose or if there is just somethinf wrong with your keyboard.

And the "Palestinians" are exactly who is responsible for one of the many diasporas. 75% of the world isn't Muslim because of revival meetings.

[LevChernyi]

62. I'm confusing?

First off I'd love to know why they were responsible for being ran off into refugee camps, you might want to tell them but I'd suggest using a megaphone and running like hell after you did it.

Second, for some reason you are lapsing into some Islamaphobic, paranoid, rant about Muslims even though we aren't talking about religion. I think I get the general gist: Jews good, Muslims bad. That's great and I'm glad you feel that way, happy Clash of Civilations and all that but I really don't care about how you feel about Muslims or Jews for that matter.

Stay with me here: One group of people of middle eastern descent got kicked out by the Romans (did they deserve to get kicked out? Many of them were terrorists you know.) aeons ago, survived as a people without a country and eventually came back. You now have another group of people of middle eastern descent driven out by the first, doing their best to survive as a people without a country and eventually come back. There is little difference.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

64. In classical psychology

that is known as projection.

There was a vast Muslim empire...its in a lot of books.

Do you think you are anti Catholic for your feelings about how NAtives were treated by Jesuits?

There were still Jews after the Roman diaspora. There have been others sincce then.

If you think you know more about the history of Jews than I do then your welcome to that opinion but you will have to do something to prove it.

[LevChernyi]

65. right..

that makes so much sense because the Palestinians are all high warlords of Islam and are so old they were all leaders in the one of the holy wars or another.

[Fight_n_back]

68. I know that it is in

the best onterest of your narrow agenda to make it seem like this conflict has only been going on for fifty years but it goes back much further into history...

People only got bent out of shape when Jews began defending themsleves, finally.

[bluesoul]

70. hmm

So the Palestinians have been persecuting Jews and Israelis (oh wait there weren't any before the middle of 20th century) since centuries ago? Are Palestinians also responsible for Hitler's rise and what other Muslims that had nothing to do with them did? Just wondering...

[Fight_n_back]

71. Enough straw

to make a STRAWMAN.

Do you know what a Palestinian is?

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

96. What are your views

on "blacks" and "rhythm"?

[LevChernyi]

99. what are your views..

on word salad and it's relative value as a term to describe linguistic disorganization.

[bluesoul]

66. Empires

There was also a vast Roman Empire and it seems the Bushies and neocons would like to build a new empire...

[Fight_n_back]

67. So you are an Italiophobe?

Its Italians that are the problem because they once had an empire that spread their language throughout Europe? How dare you point out a historical fact.

[Equinox]

75. Yet, Yang...you call it unprecedented...

so then tell me why people of Jewish heritage get to claim the land after 2,000 years????

Your argument is quite absurd.

You don't care about the numbers after they were just force fed to you from multiple sources......sounds a bit like backpeddling to me.

[Fight_n_back]

77. Quite frankly

I don't care what it sounds like to you.

Jews moved back to where their kind still resided and did so legally. Suddenly you have a problem with immigration and repatriation? Lets go take out Liberia then! By your logic Arafat can't live in Ramallah.

Saying "Your argument is quite absurd" is not a debate but a drive by.

Its like critiquing a movie by saying it sucked, so what.

Come back when you are ready to talk like a grown up.

[Darranar]

79. Uh...

Arabs live in Israel. So why can't, according to your logic, Arabs immigrate to Israel?

[Fight_n_back]

80. Uh..

by your logic why can't Jews emigrate to any Arab country?

[Darranar]

81. Okay...

so now Israel is no better than saudi Arabia. Ins't DuctapeFatwa right, then?

[Fight_n_back]

82. Hmmm

A multicultural democracy with universal health care compared to a country OWNED by one family....

If you think they are comparable then what are you doning on a progressive message board?

[Darranar]

83. They AREN'T...

which is my point.

Stop justifying Israel's actions by saying that others do them.

[Name removed]

84. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

86. Make you a deal

when you stop ignoring the crimes of Israel because they ARE jews then maybe we can reach some kind of agreement.

[Fight_n_back]

98. Your charge is baseless

unsupportable but alas, not beneath you.

[Forkboy]

101. I dont think so

[Fight_n_back]

102. Yet another thing

we can disagree on.

How about this "dealmaker"...

You research and post something on Syrian support for terrorism or Arafat's history of terror or his malfeascecnce or the connection between Saudi Arabia and Islamic Fundamentalist terror groups and I will repost the things I have said that are critical of Israel.

[Fight_n_back]

103. Yet another thing

we can disagree on.

How about this "dealmaker"...

You research and post something on Syrian support for terrorism or Arafat's history of terror or his malfeascecnce or the connection between Saudi Arabia and Islamic Fundamentalist terror groups and I will repost the things I have said that are critical of Israel.

[Darranar]

104. How do I ignore them?

I hate the Iraq war. I hate the regimes in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, and Egypt. I hate the atrocities committed by anyone anywhere in the world.

Just because I don't talk about them here, because this is I/P and not GD, doesn't mean that I ignore them.

[Equinox]

114. It's more deflection on Yang's part...

He doesn't even try to hide it.....

:eyes:

[Forkboy]

90. If you didn't care about numbers

why did you bring it up? And why do you not care only after being shown how wrong you were?

[Fight_n_back]

97. For one thing

I said I didn't care BEFORE I was shown all the various conflicting numbers.

I brought it up because it occurred to me and I was pretty sure it wasn't part of your sides talking points.

[Fight_n_back]

100. Since I

Don't think that the billions of people who have fled wars can return to their apartments at will, the numbers don't matter to me other than as a hypothetical exercise as to a correct number.

It is like how I could show you several conflicting census reports on how many Jews lived in the Middle East for centuries but since you don't think Jews should be able to have self rule it would be moot to you.

[Equinox]

111. Jews can have self rule...

with their Arab counterparts in the same country....you know the Arabs that got in the way during the zionist invasion?

[Fight_n_back]

112. You mean

like it is in Israel now.

Thank you for finally recognizing that there already is a multi cultural democracy in Palestine. One where the Prime Minister can't get fired by the guy that runs the army. In the olden days what Arafat is doing was called a military coup. In your world it is called progressive.

[Equinox]

113. Umm...

Re-read my post..I'm talking with the Arabs that were run off....

Nice dodge...again..

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Equinox]

118. Why did you engage in debate with me then?

Oh wise one?


Too funny..I have yet to see you "wrong."

....but you are....:evilgrin:

[Gimel]

123. How generous!

Actually, the world is not constructed at your whim.

[Equinox]

127. Nor yours...

but since some of my tax dollars go to Israel, I can have a fucking opinion, thank you!

:hi:

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. LOL

The Arab world has been trying to destroy Israel for 55 years. This is their new gambit, destroy Israel from within.

It won't work.

[bluesoul]

3. Enemies within

Always seeing enemies within and without. Even when there will be none. What does that remind me of? Hmm...

[Fight_n_back]

4. I don't know...let me guess

yourself?

[Equinox]

7. You were right at "I don't know"....

n/t

[Resistance]

9. LOL - so true

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Hmm, reality perhaps?

Israel DOES have enemies on the outside. If they go with this dumb-ass plan, they'd be inviting them inside.

[no name no slogan]

5. I was going to say it's the "Edward Said Solution"

..but your very cool sig line covered that one. I just found out last week that he had died of leukemia, finally. How tragic, as he is one of my great inspirations in life, and peace and justice in particular. I often refer people to his book "The Question of Palestine" to get the "other side" of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

A one-state solution should be the goal of ANY permanent solution to the Palestine/Israel situation. It was ALSO the original goal of the first socialist Zionist movement in the 1800s, which so many radical right-wing anti-Palestine supporters seem to forget.

IMHO, a one-state, pluralistic, democratic solution is the best solution for ALL involved, with equal rights for each and every person regardless of religion or ethnicity. Unfortunately, there are zealots on both sides who seem to regard this as heresy.

And the killing and injustice go on and on... :(

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. Based on a fantasy

The Jewish people know what happens when they don't have a homeland. They went through 2,000 years of abuse to get here.

Let's give them another 2,000 to try and make this work before we criticize.

[Fight_n_back]

10. Since I can't speak for right wing anti palestin posters

as I am not one and don't know of any...

I will say that I happen to be realted to someone whos father WAS one of those socilaist zionist and the reason it never happened was because Palesitnian Arabs wanted their own homeland.

if you can go that far back in your knowledge of Zionism then you know that the reason there is no Palestrinain state is because Jordan conquered it in the 1948 war.

how different would the world be if that hadn't happened? Two strong democracies, side by each, in that part of the world? Why did the UN allow Britain to install a King over Jordan who wasn't even from that country? Why didn't the UN intervene when Jordan was slaughtering all those Palestinisns?

Oh well, hindsight is 20-20

[rini]

11. A liar

whose life was based on make believe is your hero? I am so sorry.

[Darranar]

12. Edward Said?

Actually, he acknowledged the intense intolerance and bias many had towards the Arab world in the US. He was a great person.

[rini]

15. BS

a liar and a supporter of terrorists, yes Edward Said Egyption citizen

[Equinox]

17. Rini,

Your post "ain't nuttin but shit."

[bluesoul]

18. "Terrorist supporters"

I guess Rini equates criticism of Israeli policy and people like Sharon with "supporting terrorism" just as thoe neocons and their supporters called those critisizing Bush and opposing the war on Iraq as "terrorist supporters" and "anti-Americans". Same vocabulary, same old BS. I really wonder why would a great man like Said deserve such etiquette. For standing against apartheid-like policy?

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Oh, it's EgyptiOn night?

Edward Said was an American citizen, a Palestinian, and if you'd actually read anything he wrote instead of relying on the racism of extreme right-wing sites, you'd know that he didn't support terrorists and wasn't a liar. Instead of trying to smear him, why don't you try reading what he wrote? That way yr criticism can be constructive....

Violet...

[Fight_n_back]

21. Interesting

He was an American citizen AND a Palestinian? I guess that means that, even though he was born in another nation and citizen of a third you would think he had a right to live in Palestine, right?

[bluesoul]

22. Said

Why wouldn't he have the right to live in Palestine? And I am glad you recognize that there is a Palestine, some don't even recognize that..

[Fight_n_back]

23. Just going by your logic

that if people aren't born in an area they aren't allowed to live there even if they have cultural, ethnic and familial ties to the region.

It is nice to see you finally come out in favor of Jewish self rule.

[LevChernyi]

24. He was born in Jerusalem

I don't know what Said did to "support terrorists" other than have the good sense to note that the term "terrorist" dates back to the French press of the early 1800's regarding their colonization of Algeria and it's only consistent meaning is people resisting Western powers.

[Muddleoftheroad]

25. What a white wash

Terror means deliberately targeting civilians to cause terror. That meaning is universal.

[LevChernyi]

26. Since the Palestinians don't have an army..

Your definition would make everything the IDF does terrorism.

[Muddleoftheroad]

28. That's funny

I suppose all those Palestinians with AK47s and bombs are just my imagination?

[LevChernyi]

32. now you want to play "who is a civilian"

There goes your sparkly clean black/white world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

33. The world is black and white

Nor is it sparkly clean. But who is a terrorist is pretty clear. That includes Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, et al.

[LevChernyi]

35. hezbollah?

Hezbollah has never done one thing the Israeli's haven't. I dare you to come up with something. If Hezbollah are "terrorists" so are the IDF and the Mossad.

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Bullcrap

Hezbollah targets Israeli citizens to this day. Sorry I am bursting your bubble.

[Darranar]

39. With a few random rocket attacks?

[Muddleoftheroad]

41. A few?

Never just a few.

[LevChernyi]

50. bullcrap

You made that up.

Sorry to bust your bubble.

[Muddleoftheroad]

52. No I didn't

Previously discussed how Hezbollah likes to shoot rockets and such that conveniently land on Israeli citizens in the north. Hezbollah, nice guys that they are, claim they are only shooting at planes, but somehow the rockets don't hit planes, just civilian targets.

[LevChernyi]

53. You don't know what you are talking about

I think you may be talking about anti-aircraft artilery (not rockets, it's flak) and while your pointing to firing defensive flak at incoming Israeli fighters which have killed 20,000 Lebanese in the last few decades as some sort of evil "terrorism" is funny in a grim way, it's illustrative of the sort of mental gymnastics it takes to be an Israeli true-believer.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Talk about propaganda

Of course, those rockets are NEVER targeted at Israel. LOL.

Yes, another poster and I went round and round about this already. Thanks for playing.

[Aidoneus]

89. while on the subject, I'm curious about something

A completely direct answer would be nice, but I know it's too much to ask for.

Do you deny the fact that Israeli jets quite regularly fly over Lebanese airspace? Do you approve of these implied threats?

[Muddleoftheroad]

92. Periodically

Not regularly. They did it a couple times recently after Israel attacked the terrorist training camp.

They do it in response to actions taken by Hezbollah or Syria, which are mostly one in the same.

[Aidoneus]

95. what propaganda, indeed

just from a few months, from just 2003.. need I go on? to be fair, May seems to have been quiet, except for the 14th by air and Israeli hackers on the 5th. haven't looked at April->onward yet, though it is probably more of the same. compiled a few things as research for a friend, that's starting to come in handy here.

they're not "mostly one in the same", you don't seem to know much at all about the history between them, so I wonder why you speak so stridently about a subject you quite obviously know little about aside from the typical sloganized platitudes (which are more often than not lies) backed up by blind conviction (more dangerous enemies of truth than lies even).

October 13th
Israel violates Lebanese air space despite existing regional tension - UN envoy
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=8535&Cr=lebanon&Cr1=

October 9th
Israeli planes break sound barrier over Beirut as condemnation continues
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0310/03100912DS.asp

October 1st
Israel Apologizes for Shooting at French Ship in S. Lebanon
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/2A2ED02CDFBF6A8942256DB2002AD34B?OpenDocument&PRINT

September 30th
Israel's Navy Chases French Ship off S. Lebanon's Territorial Waters
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/CD29B8B0F7463EB542256DB1003A9C2A?OpenDocument&PRINT

September 14th
Israeli jets fly over Lebanon; Hezbollah anti-aircraft shells
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/340082.html

September 3rd
Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200309031231000269493&dt=20030903123100&w=RTR&coview=

August 31st
Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200308310742000245631&dt=20030831074200&w=RTR&coview=

August 15th
Israeli Warplanes Fly Over Syrian Leader's House-TV
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200308151824000222657&dt=20030815182400&w=RTR&coview=

August 14th
Hizbullah fires again on Israeli jets over Lebanon
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0308/03081417DS.asp

August 13th
Hizbollah fires on Israeli jets over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200308130850000213935&dt=20030813085000&w=RTR&coview=
Israeli jets break sound barrier over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200308130455000208644&dt=20030813045500&w=RTR&coview=

August 11th
Israeli Jets Buzz Beirut as Sharon's Hawks Call for "Burning" it Altogether
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/61EFBA8F3AAA8D7F42256D7F0033DB2C?OpenDocument&PRINT

August 10th
Israel raids south Lebanon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3139243.stm

August 5th
Killing of Hizbullah official has far-reaching security implications
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0308/03080509DS.asp

July 22nd
Hizbollah fires at Israeli jets over Lebanon
http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters07-22-051450.asp?reg=MIDEAST

July 14th
Israel's Sonic War Against Lebanese Cities May be Over (yeah, or not..)
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/8AAA2A7181F7DE9642256D6300329AAA?OpenDocument&PRINT

June 19th
Hizbollah Says Fires on Israeli Jets Over Lebanon
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030619/wl_nm/mideast_lebanon_jets_dc_1

June 18th
Israel's Air Force Stages Mock Dive-Bombing Raids In Lebanon
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/Newsdesk.nsf/Story/B1E7C658253CB08E42256D49002E7B26?OpenDocument&PRINT

June 17th
Hizbollah fires on Israeli warplanes over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200306170741000253495&dt=20030617074100&w=RTR&coview=

June 13th
Overt muscle-flexing by Israeli air force continues
http://www.lebanonwire.com/0306/03061313DS.asp

June 12th
Israeli warplanes roar over Beirut, shake windows
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200306120615000251606&dt=20030612061500&w=RTR&coview=

June 8th
Hizbollah shoots at Israeli warplanes over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=20030608071600021942&dt=20030608071600&w=RTR&coview=

June 4th
Hizbollah fires at Israeli warplanes over Lebanon
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/news/story.jsp?id=200306041050000274819&dt=20030604105000&w=RTR&coview=

[Aidoneus]

117. but wait, there's more

after just a night, my post is already outdated..

Israel planes fly low over Lebanon
From correspondents in Baalbek
October 16, 2003

ISRAELI fighter bombers flew low over the Bekaa Valley of eastern
Lebanon late yesterday, including the town of Baalbek near the Syrian border, without drawing fire, an AFP correspondent in the region said.

It was the second consecutive night of Israeli overflights of Lebanon.

--snip--

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,7575049%255E1702,00.html

[Aidoneus]

126. another, for it does not cease

October 21st--

Israeli warplanes fly low over southern Lebanon

NAQOURA: Israeli fighter-bombers flew low Monday morning over the southern Lebanese town of Naqoura where the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) has its headquarters.

The jets flew across the border area as far as this Mediterranean town before heading back to Israel, without drawing fire, an AFP correspondent said. Israeli planes violated Lebanese airspace several times last week, including flights over the eastern Bekaa Valley, again without incident. The United Nations condemns Israeli flights over Lebanon. —AFP

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_21-10-2003_pg7_49

[Equinox]

119. Stop it!...truth is getting in the way of Muddleoftheroad's fantasy!

n/t

[LevChernyi]

121. no it won't

This won't make a dent. It may not even be seen like Robert Anton Wilson's Fnord's or it may be jetissoned Orwell style using some combination of Crimestop, Blackwhite, and Doublethink.

[LevChernyi]

91. what propaganda..

I can document litteraly hundreds of Israeli attacks on Lebanon since the cease fire. You won't be able to find one. Your rocket attack happened in your own imagination, not even in Israeli propaganda.

[Muddleoftheroad]

93. HAHAHA

OK, I went through argument once recently. Not twice.

Read the threads.

[LevChernyi]

94. I have no doubt you "won"

You apparently don't need any proof whatsoever to validate your own version of current events as seen above when you deny absolutely gratuitous overflights of Lebanon even thought everyone who lives in the Galilee (wouldn't want to make you have to trust a dirty Ay-Rab) knows better.

[Saudade]

51. LIar?

"a liar and a supporter of terrorists, yes Edward Said Egyption citizen"

Perhaps you could back up this idiotic slander by posting one or more quotes from Said's work to demonstrate that he was a "supporter of terrorists".

Otherwise, you just look foolish.

As for the allegation that Said was a "liar," perhaps you'd care to address Said's response to Justin Weiner's fabrications here:

http://www.counterpunch.org/said2.html


The first problem is that during his three years of assiduous research Weiner never once contacted or in any way spoke to me, an extraordinary omission by a man who pretends that he is both a scholar and a journalist but actually uses the methods of neither one nor the other. He says he spoke to my assistant once: that is a straight-out lie. Another problem is that he misappropriated and falsifies a galley of my memoir, Out of Place, completed in September 1998, and to appear from Knopf next month.

To make matters worse, Weiner's strenuous display of scholarly rigor is undercut by dozens of mistakes of fact.

....

He says that I didn't attend St George's School. This too is an outright lie.

...

All this from someone who claims that I have falsified the past to pretend that I am a victim.

...

He never gives actual sources, but uses innuendos and fraudulent calculations and unsubstantiated assertions. Every piece of stationery, every shop sign, directory, and yearbook connected with our Palestinian business states that Boulos and Wadie Said were co-owners (and, obviously co-losers in 1948).

...

What about our neighbors, other relatives, friends, members of the church community? They were never contacted. Several children of the pastor who baptised me are still alive also: they could have been contacted. Why does Weiner not discuss the house's ownership after 1948, when it was expropriated by Israel? No: what Commentary wants is not the truth but the defamation of my name and character.

I have always advocated the acknowledgement by each other of the Palestinian and Jewish peoples' past sufferings. Only in this way can they coexist peacefully together in the future. Weiner is more interested in using the past -- either an individual or collective past -- to prevent understanding and reconciliation. It is a pity that so much time, money, and venom as he has expended couldn't have been used for better purposes.

From Hitchens' article on Weiner's slander:

"The implication is that Said the mythomaniac discredits the entire Palestinian "narrative" of diaspora and dispossession. But it takes only about three minutes to demonstrate that Weiner's three years were a malicious waste of time. In order, then:...."

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=19990920&s=hitchens

[mike_c]

13. one major difference between Israel and South Africa...

...is that the world imposed sanctions on South Africa to make apartheid untenable in the long run-- that pressure contributed greatly to the situation becoming intolerable to white South Africans. Instead of sanctions, the U.S. sends billions annually to help prop up Israeli apartheid. Israel needs to feel the pressure without help from Uncle Sugar-daddy for a while....

[Fight_n_back]

14. one difference between Israel and South Africa

is geography.

There are other differences as well. Israel does not practice aprtheid. Israeli Arabs are full citizens whho vote and hold political office. In fact it is rare that an Isralei Arab cooperates with the Palestiians who spedn their time tryong to figure out ways to eliminate Jews.


The occupation is bad, that doesn't mean that it is the same as another thing that was bad. It could be that you are just trying to score points with hyperbole. It would be akin to someone making comparisons between para military groups that seek to kill Jews with other para military groups that want to kill Jews, what would the point be? It doesn't further the debate.

[Equinox]

16. Tell me Yang?

In Israel, Arabs have different ID cards than Jews. Why is this so?

If everyone was equal, there would be no need, correct?

:shrug:

[Fight_n_back]

20. It doesn't follow

that ID cards autiomatically mean inequality. I don't know why it is so. A lot of nations have ID cards and I don't know how it works in those couontries either.

Arabs are a minority in Israel and are treated like minorities are in the US except they get healthcare in Israel.

Minorities can be treated poorly and still not be apartheid.

[Equinox]

105. My question is if they are equal....

why the need for ID cards?

We don't have different ID cards for the different citizens here, do we?

nice dodge....

[Saudade]

56. Similarity

One difference between South Africa and Israel is that even at its worst, So. Africa never came close to inflicting the kind of lethal violence on the natives that Israel reaps on a daily basis.

[Fight_n_back]

58. That is absurd

Africa does worse everyday. Jordan did worse in one month thatn I
srael has done in its history.

Beside, Jews are the natives.

[Equinox]

106. By the way...

Your continuous deflection at what other countries do only weakens your arguement......

I don't support the death penalty...but since some countries in the world do it, I guess I should support the US doing it?

Ridiculous....

:eyes:

[Saudade]

55. Insight

The best measure of how the current Israeli government feels about a bi-national state is the fact that the Knesset recently passed a law denying visas to spouses of non-jews in Israel.

This blatently racist law (justified, as always, by the pitiful drone about "security") would be immediately denounced for what it is in any other "western" nation.

Anyone who claims that arabs in Israel have equal rights ought to be able to explain this neo-Nazi legislation.

[Fight_n_back]

61. "insight"

What do you think of the visa regulations for Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran?

Just curious

[Saudade]

69. I don't know

"What do you think of the visa regulations for Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria and Iran?"

I don't know.

Are they as racist as Israel's?

It wouldn't suprise me as all of these countries are basically theocracies.

[Fight_n_back]

72. If you don't know

then how can you put it in context? What else don't you know that you are happy to spout off about?

Are these visa regulations something you researched yourself or did someone say it to you at a campus rally?

[Saudade]

73. Context?

"then how can you put it in context? What else don't you know that you are happy to spout off about?"

I didn't try to put it in context. You did, remember?

It's blatent racism, regardless of context.

The purpose, obviously, is to prevent non-jews in Israel from reproducing and/or encouraging them to leave Israel.

The purpose is all the context I need.

"What else don't you know that you are happy to spout off about?"

Evidently, I know more about it than you do. You don't even seem interested in the subject, which makes me wonder why you waste keystrokes on this thread.

"Are these visa regulations something you researched yourself or did someone say it to you at a campus rally?"

I researched this Knesset law myself.

[Fight_n_back]

74. Hmmm

a nation has a racist law? You wouldn't happen to be Claude Rains in "Casablnca" would you?

[Saudade]

76. Go away

"a nation has a racist law? You wouldn't happen to be Claude Rains in "Casablnca" would you?"

It is abundently clear that you are incapable of intelligent discussion of this subject, which is why instead of addressing the issue -- Israel's racist legislation -- you make witless jokes and try to change the subject.

Your input is uninteresting.

[Fight_n_back]

78. Thank you for the constructive criticism

or whatever it was thatyou intended.

What exactly is your point about a nation having a racist law? Jews aren't even allowed to live in most of the countries you are bending over backwards to support so I don't understand your fake outrage.

[Saudade]

85. Please

"Jews aren't even allowed to live in most of the countries you are bending over backwards to support so I don't understand your fake outrage."

--If you understand the concept of rational debate, you will now support your assertion by citing any post of mine that "supports" (not to mention bends over backward supporting) any country where jews aren't allowed to live.

--You can do that, right?

PS: My outrage is very real.

[Equinox]

110. I don't remember Suadade supporting any other racist nation...

I mean..I did read the thread...maybe I missed something...

I'll bet it's more deflection on your part though...

:shrug:

[Fight_n_back]

116. Only because

the Lebanon restriction law hadn't appeared yet. It was only a mtter of time before the duplicity showed itself.

Do you still think Bush is a great leader and a man of peace?

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Equinox]

108. Suadade was being sarcastic Yang...

You know...when someone says something tongue in cheek....

[Equinox]

109. Suadade was being sarcastic Yang...

You know...when someone says something tongue in cheek....

[Equinox]

107. More deflection....

Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, and Iran don't call themselves democracies. They also don't receive $4 Billion in aid from the US to continue on with their evil ways.....

jeeeez.....who would have thought advocating human rights to a "liberal" would be sooooo tough....

:eyes:

[Saudade]

122. Nobody?

I haven't seen the elusive YANG addressing Israel's racist visa law.

I wonder why?

Maybe he/she would like to discuss Israel's classification of Palestinians who live between the apartheid wall and the Green Line.

I'll be YANG doesn't know any more about that than he/she does about the visa laws.

[Equinox]

125. I'm interested in knowing what is going to happen to...

..the Palestinians "inside" the wall. Will they become citizens by default?

hmmmm.......

:shrug:

[Gimel]

124. Not realistic

This is a philosophical idea, but in practice it will not work. Not in the present century.

[Equinox]

128. Does this sound familiar?

"Actually, the world is not constructed at your whim."

[sushi]

129. I don't think it's possible

Who would rule? If it's a democracy the Arabs would soon be the ruling elite. This is definitely not acceptable to the conservative Jews.

In South Africa a group of unhappy Afrikaners have started their own little community, I think it's called Orania, where only whites are welcome.