Israel launches fresh Gaza raid

[muriel_volestrangler]

"Israeli troops, backed by about 40 tanks and helicopter gunships, have raided the Rafah refugee camp in Gaza in the second large-scale incursion in less than a week.
Palestinian medical officials say at least three Palestinians have been injured in the operation, which the Israeli army says is aimed at destroying tunnels used to smuggle arms into the camp from neighbouring Egypt.

In a repeat of Friday's raid, which United Nations officials said left 1,200 people homeless, local residents say the Israeli forces have destroyed a number of homes.

The first operation, in which eight Palestinians, including two children, were killed was condemned by United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/middle_east/3189290.stm

Does this get reported in the US at all? Is there any editorialising , or does the media just stick to reporting the bare facts?

[drdon326]

1. The bare facts?

You mean the fact that Israel has already destroyed
33 tunnels ?

the fact that the PA has done NOTHING to shut them
down ?

the fact that these tunnels bring in explosives that
murder innocent people ?

yeah...the media never seems to mention these facts.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. NPR mentioned it

on All Things Considered last night. They also mentioned the tunnels. The NY Times today had an article about Israelis and Palestinians who are trying to get to a compromise about things so that they can live in peace. I hope there is more news about them. Those are the people I support, not the violent ones on either side. That being said, I don't see how killing of children and destroying property (by either side) is going to cause peace.

[La_Serpiente]

3. there is still some hope

There is still some hope...moderate forces of Palestinians and Jews have come together to make an ideal peace plan...although it was denounced by Sharon. I think Sharon is losing his grip on power. First, the defections, and now ex-government ministers working on an unofficial parallel path with the peace plan? I think Peace is gaining influence in the region and things will change within the next two years.

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. What you don't see

When Israeli soldiers go in to either go after terrorists or shut down these tunnels, many resist them. That means combat and in combat people get killed. Since it is an urban setting, that means innocents as well.

If the PA did something about this situation, the collateral damage would not occur.

[bluesoul]

12. "Collateral" damage

Kids get killed, collateral damage. IDF targets a civilian, collateral damage. Israeli bulldozer demolishes house, collateral damage. Bomb or rocket falls on a highly populated civilian area, collateral damage. One excuse after another excuse for (war) crimes. Nice try...

This must be the single most abused term in modern history. Collateral damage and fighting terrorism. Like in Iraq, yes?

[Muddleoftheroad]

14. Not war crimes

When a group of murdering terrorists deliberately hides out in a civilian area and the civilian leadership (the PA) won't do anything about it, then people die when Israel has no choice but to go after them.

[bluesoul]

15. Here we go again

More excuses for war crimes...

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. Yes, I know

But it seems you have to post something.

[bluesoul]

18. Posting

There is not much to say (after all said) to posters like you that have a clear bias and are not capable of being objective. I am neither Muslim nor Jewish so I am not burdened with the mythology or religion thing...

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. Nor am I (nice anti-religion dig though)

I have made a clear choice that Israel is the more moral side in this conflict.

[bluesoul]

23. Vice versa

And I have made the clear choice that it is not the more moral side.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

19. what do you think of this?

--snip--

At the opening stage of the operation,
8-year-old Ibrahim Krinawi was killed. Ibrahim,
whose house was in the first row facing the
border, was the youngest of five children. His
father Ahmed said the family was in the house
when the operation began. They were going to
leave but the bulldozer got there before they
were able to do so. He said the bulldozer began
tearing down a wall of the house, and he and
his children went outside to stop it. At this
point, a single shot hit Ibrahim in the right
side of his chest and he collapsed. His father
called an ambulance. As Ibrahim's brother Ayad
told it, "at the beginning, he was conscious
and yelling that it was hurting him terribly
and for us to save him. Then he began to bleed
and he begged us to take the bullet out but we
couldn't do anything." The father said a
Palestinian ambulance stopped a few hundred
meters from the house but could not come any
closer. Finally, family members carried Ibrahim
to the ambulance. An hour later, he died at a
makeshift clinic.

--snip--

No "terrorists" or "tunnels" or any of that bullshit here. Spin away, I'll probably enjoy the maccabre attempt to justify this.

[Aidoneus]

4. Israeli tanks return to torment Rafah

Israeli tanks return to torment Rafah
Tuesday 14 October 2003

At least three Palestinians are reported hurt, one of them seriously, in the latest invasion of Rafah refugee camp in the south of the Gaza Strip.

Israeli tanks and soldiers launched the new assault early Tuesday - hours after a damning human rights report condemned previous raids on the same refugee camp.

The invasion force consists of about 40 tanks, armoured personnel carriers and helicopter gunships.

Occupation forces had only just left Rafah on Monday after a three-day attack that killed eight Palestinians and left more than 1000 homeless last week.

But sunrise on Tuesday saw the return of an even larger attack force with the means to destroy many more homes and lives.

"Israeli helicopters opened fire on the area and soldiers took up rooftop positions on high buildings,” said Aljazeera's correspondent.

Dr Ali Musa, the head of Rafah hospital, told AFP that among
the injured was a 12-year-old boy who was in serious condition after being struck by shrapnel from a tank shell.

Residents said that water and electricity supplies were cut off and that three houses had been demolished.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B6E27ADF-9E5B-45CD-A4CD-403A3BCF3D39.htm

[Aidoneus]

5. Haaretz:--IDF: Latest Rafah incursion 'could last several days'

Last Update: 14/10/2003 11:59
IDF: Latest Rafah incursion 'could last several days'
By Arnon Regular, Haaretz Correspondent and Agencies

Dozens of armored Israel Defense Forces vehicles
reentered the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip
early Tuesday morning, in the latest operation to
uncover arms-smuggling tunnels.

Military sources confirmed that
an operation was underway,
saying it was a continuation of
the three-day mission that
began Friday. Six Palestinians
were injured in the first hours
of the operation, Palestinian
hospital sources said.

A senior IDF officer in the Gaza Strip
told Army Radio that this new stage of
the operation – officially referred to a
'Root Canal 2' – could last several days.
The officer added that there were 12 known
tunnels in operation.

--snip--

Eight Palestinians, including two children, were
killed during the 72-hour operation that began
early Friday morning. Some 100 houses were
destroyed, leaving about 2,000 people homeless,
according to assessments by International aid
organizations and UNRWA officials.

The commander of the Givati brigade in the
region, Colonel Eyal Eisenberg, denied Tuesday
charges that the IDF was being heavy-handed in
its efforts to uncover tunnels, and that a
disproportionate amount of damage was being
cause.

"I want people to ask how many houses we have
not demolished," he told Army Radio, "not how
many we have. I believe that the IDF's actions
have been entirely moral, and that our behavior
has been above and beyond that of any other
army in the world."

--snip--

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/349442.html

:eyes:

loved the 'moral' spin. That first paragraph reveals something that annoys me a bit about Haaretz.. for all of their worth as independent commentators, they still often toe the military's line about things.

[bluesoul]

6. "Morality"

"I want people to ask how many houses we have
not demolished," he told Army Radio, "not how
many we have. I believe that the IDF's actions
have been entirely moral, and that our behavior
has been above and beyond that of any other
army in the world."

I love this part. And the constant mentioning of the "morality" and the IDF being the most moral army on the planet. What a load of BS. Their record would be one of the worst at the time...

[Aidoneus]

7. more on that "morality" angle from another Haaretz piece

--snip--

At the opening stage of the operation,
8-year-old Ibrahim Krinawi was killed. Ibrahim,
whose house was in the first row facing the
border, was the youngest of five children. His
father Ahmed said the family was in the house
when the operation began. They were going to
leave but the bulldozer got there before they
were able to do so. He said the bulldozer began
tearing down a wall of the house, and he and
his children went outside to stop it. At this
point, a single shot hit Ibrahim in the right
side of his chest and he collapsed. His father
called an ambulance. As Ibrahim's brother Ayad
told it, "at the beginning, he was conscious
and yelling that it was hurting him terribly
and for us to save him. Then he began to bleed
and he begged us to take the bullet out but we
couldn't do anything." The father said a
Palestinian ambulance stopped a few hundred
meters from the house but could not come any
closer. Finally, family members carried Ibrahim
to the ambulance. An hour later, he died at a
makeshift clinic.

Twelve-year-old Sami Salah was also killed
during the operation in one of the alleys near
Jamal Yussuf's home. Sami's uncle said his
nephew was shot in the head by an IDF
sharpshooter about an hour after the operation
began. He died immediately.

--snip--

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/349478.html

[bluesoul]

8. The most moral army on Earth

Ariel Sharon, "Man of Peace" as Bush would like to say...

[rini]

21. Glad you have finally seen the truth!

n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

33. It was sarcasm...

And the sarcasm was dripping off it so much it would have been impossible for anyone to miss it...

All this 'most moral army on earth' crap is sickening. I'm sure the fanatical supporters of other military forces in the past have labelled their boys the 'most moral army on earth' as well. I'd say yr probably in very good company with some of them :)

Violet...

[rini]

17. poor innocent smugglers

Since January 2003, large amounts of diverse weapons have been smuggled into the Gaza Strip, including:

Dozens of RPG rockets and lauchers
Hundreds of kilograms of explosives
Hundreds of rifles (mainly AK-47 Kalashnikovs)
Tens of thousands of bullets and other ammunition
Thousands of cartridges
<2>
Note: Efforts are being made to smuggle in more advanced kinds of weapons. Such weapons include anti-aircraft missiles capable of shooting down civilian and military aircraft, and surface to surface missiles capable of reaching Israeli population centers. Consequently, these tunnels, and the buildings that house their entrances, are military objects, as they allow terrorist organizations to achieve a military advantage.

http://haganah.org.il/israel/

[Aidoneus]

20. an 8yr old smuggler?

In that case, it's good that they shot him young:--who knows what incredible mischief this enterprising young lad could've made of himself if allowed to grow up to 10-11yrs old.. :eyes: :puke:

Your views make a lot more sense now if that's one of the pages you rely on.

[rini]

24. of course they use children

sorry he was shot but what the hell were the parents thinking to allow their child to be put in danger???????

[bluesoul]

25. Put in danger?

You mean to say why did they provide him a shelter and house to live in? So all those 2000 people shouldn't be living there in the first place and should have gone elsewhere? The only crime of those children was that they lived there as it was there home. All the rest are excuses for killing civilians.

[Aidoneus]

26. you can read, right?

this is getting repititious of me, but it's a fairly detailed account, and seeing as how it is what you're supposedly responding to..

At the opening stage of the operation,
8-year-old Ibrahim Krinawi was killed. Ibrahim,
whose house was in the first row facing the
border, was the youngest of five children. His
father Ahmed said the family was in the house
when the operation began. They were going to
leave but the bulldozer got there before they
were able to do so. He said the bulldozer began
tearing down a wall of the house, and he and
his children went outside to stop it. At this
point, a single shot hit Ibrahim in the right
side of his chest and he collapsed. His father
called an ambulance. As Ibrahim's brother Ayad
told it, "at the beginning, he was conscious
and yelling that it was hurting him terribly
and for us to save him. Then he began to bleed
and he begged us to take the bullet out but we
couldn't do anything." The father said a
Palestinian ambulance stopped a few hundred
meters from the house but could not come any
closer. Finally, family members carried Ibrahim
to the ambulance. An hour later, he died at a
makeshift clinic.

You blame him for getting shot, and not a single word but deflection for the "moral" murderer that fired on the kid. That's nice..

[bluesoul]

27. Without words

Aidoneus, I must admit that I am out of words for people that defend such kind of actions and policy. Some people never cease to amaze me...

[Forkboy]

28. what amazes me even more

is that these people are tolerated on what is SUPPOSED to be a "progressive" site.

[bluesoul]

29. Let them be

They claim to be progressives and liberals as far as I can remember. But personally I would tolerate any views now matter how much I disagree with them or find them troubling. I am not afraid of their views because I know what is right and what is wrong. And killing 8 and 12 year old children surely isn't among the "right". Nor can there be any excuses for killing them.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

32. Hmm

Well the way I see it, they may be liberal and progressive on social and domestic issues, but when it comes to foreign policy and especially Israel they are very much close to the neo-con views. I may be wrong though ;-)

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[rini]

10. Bare facts

I have seen the same bare facts as DRDON reported. I imagine though that you have not as the BBC is...well let's be charitable and not call a spade a spade.

[Forkboy]

11. I know

the BBC isn't Little Green Footballs so it can't be trusted.

[bluesoul]

13. evil BBC

It's Fox News, LGF and Fox And Corkum that are reliable, remember?

[Gimel]

35. Reports in Israel

A radio interview with a IDF officer indicates that the number of homes claimed to be demolished is greatly exaggerated. Many which were demolished were being used as military stations, some were already abandoned, etc. Here is a transcript of a radio report:

Troops re-enter Rafiah
Reports from Gaza say troops backed by armoured vehicles re-entered the Rafiah refugee camp Tuesday morning. Palestinian witnesses quoted by Reuters news agency said at least 40 tanks and armoured personnel carriers are involved in the latest operation. The troops came under fire. An IDF spokesman denied Palestinian and United Nations Relief and Welfare Agency (UNRWA) statements that more than 100 homes were destroyed during the three day incursion, starting over the weekend, into Rafiah. Soldiers located and destroyed in the raid, three tunnels used by Palestinians to smuggle weapons and explosives from Egypt. Most forces were withdrawn on Sunday only to re-enter again on Tuesday. The UNRWA commissioner in Gaza, Peter Hansen, says 120 homes were destroyed in the operation, leaving 1,240 people homeless. But an IDF spokesman, Captain Yaakov Dallal, says the claim is exaggerated and that many of the buildings were already damaged or destroyed in previous fighting. The destroyed homes were located on the main thoroughfare of Rafiah. The IDF search for the tunnels led underneath some of the houses. In the West Bank, near the settlement of Negohot south of Hebron, soldiers killed a Palestinian on Tuesday morning. The soldiers opened fire at the man who appeared suspicious, but was later found to be unarmed.
14.10.2003 14:39
http://bet.iba.org.il/index.asp?classto=betLanguage&lang=23

[bluesoul]

36. IDF as source

And the IDF responsible for the mess is a credible fource, no doubt about it...:eyes:

[Gimel]

37. And who was there?

I suppose the BBC has a better view? At least this has to be taken into account. No exact number was given, but the report comes from a reliable source. A source that is more reliable than Arafat or ElectricIntifada IME.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LevChernyi]

39. my own eyes work fairly well

I saw easily hundreds of people moving on with donkey carts and a few possessions which makes Israel's little story about how they didn't destroy many homes a blatent lie on the face of it.

[Gimel]

40. How many homeless

Do you estimate with your own eyes? Where were you located and how did you know they were people from the Rafeah area? Could it have been a rerun of old video that you saw on TV? If you were there, did you speak to the people for information?

[LevChernyi]

41. maybe it was all made at Pixar

Probably not, but as long as we are getting surreal :shrug:

[Gimel]

48. Your own eyes

You have not yet given an answer, so I assume that your reply is that you have no idea what you saw.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. It's not a good idea to make assumptions...

If someone grills someone else on what they saw with the intent of not believing anything they say, it's often much wiser to not bother playing anymore and let the griller stew in their juices...

Violet...

[Gimel]

53. How true

For once I agree with you.

[Violet_Crumble]

54. I know...

I think what I pointed out was the more likely reason there was no response :)

For once? That's strange. I thought I saw you agreeing with me in another thread not all that long ago....

Violet...

[Violet_Crumble]

42. That's not how it works...

People who say their homes have been destroyed are liars.
People who see people's homes destroyed are liars.
People who see people displaced after their homes are destroyed are liars.
IDF officials tell the truth. We must NEVER doubt them as a credible source, unlike those leftist sources like the BBC and co. who just totally ignore the multiple photo-ops of those sweet IDF boys putting time in building new homes for those ungrateful Palestinians and handing out lollies to those evil Palestinian stone-throwing children ;)

Violet...

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[LevChernyi]

44. I don't know what the relevance is

but I do know that for some reason these people apparently had homes before the IDF came and they quite obviously didn't after they left.

[bemildred]

46. I think you are supposed to be impressed with the

venal motives of the tunnel operators. Maybe the fecklessness
of the Egyptians who allow it, too.

My own take is that it shows what a futile waste of money
these incursions are if they are supposed to stop smuggling
and close the tunnels down.

I do have to wonder where the RPGs etc. smuggled in are, I
would expect them to cause some damage in use.

[LevChernyi]

49. my guess would be..

that given total closure of the Gaza Strip the inhabitants of the prison are more interested in trying to bring in food and medicine than small arms.

[bemildred]

50. Yeah.

The other question is where do they get the right to interdict
that border, anyway? If they have sovereignty over that place,
why are these people not full citizens of Israel? And if they are
not, they need to defend their own border, not someone else's.

The usual explanation I see is that they are at war with the
Palestinians. But their is no Palestinian state, so who exactly
are they are war with? Is it a civil war? Are the Palestinian
militants just criminals in Israel? Or what? And that still doesn't
answer the question of where does Israeli sovereignty end, and
why they aren't defending their own border. They don't go into
Egypt after this "contraband", yet it's supposed to be coming from
there.

I find it telling that unambiguous answers to these questions are
not forthcoming. They like having it both ways. The fact is they
assume the rights pertaining to sovereignty, but they refuse to also
accept the corresponding responsibilities they would then have
towards these residents as citizens: due process, equal treatment,
and so on.

[bluesoul]

51. Good point

Those are all questions Bemildred, that will never be answered, for very good reason...

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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