The collapse began today

[pelsar]

The values to which people cling most stubbornly under inappropriate conditions are those values that were previously the source of their greatest triumphs over adversity.

just an interesting article....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1002033.html

[azurnoir]

1. Never Again

On a thread here there was a debate as to the meaning of “never again”, which to me originally had meant “never again will we (Jews) go like sheep to the slaughter”. I bring this up because IMHO some Israeli’s and other Jews world wide of the Holocaust generation and those that came after seemed to have a sense of almost shame concerning the relative passivity with which European Jews submitted to genocide at least in the beginning, there were exceptions Sobibor and the Warsaw Ghetto to name a couple but by and large not many fought back.
This sense of shame or needing to “prove” something like we are not sheep or weaklings was one of the drives powering Israel’s fight for independence and subsequent battle for existence in its “infancy and childhood”. In 1967 however Israel proved its adulthood in a decisive victory over countries bent on its destruction..
In the ensuing 40 years Israel has done what was once considered impossible and signed peace treaties with both Egypt and Jordan, and is working towards that possibility with Syria. In short Israel at the moment has no neighboring enemies that could destroy it, Iran right now has no nuclear capabilities and despite threats and saber rattling IMHO is not anxious for war.
So were does all this leave things? Israel has enemies in Hezbollah and various Palestinian factions however none of these can do Israel it self much damage beyond “hit and run” style attacks., the settlements once needed as a bulwark against enemies now have become an impediment to peace with remaining enemies and the stubborn but what about 1948 or 1929 or any time in the past used to justify the present mind set must be let go, times change and to use what happened 6,10, 30,60 years ago only aids in keeping the a peaceful future in stasis.

on edit: when I first read the title of the OP my reaction was sh*t now what happened, the post was a pleasent surprise.

[Vegasaurus]

4. I think you are way underestimating the goals and determination

of Hamas and Hezbollah, and all the other myriad terrorist groups.

They are gathering ever more powerful weaponry,

Your efforts to paint them as merely "hit and run" or "not such bad" damage is absurd.

These terrorists are clear in their goals.

They are aided by huge financing from Iran and other Arab nations, and they are stockpiling weapons.

The intent is not "hit and run" damage, but efforts at major annihilation.

I do believe they will succeed, which is why Israel needs her nukes.

[azurnoir]

5. I believe you choose

to way over estimate the the ability of Hamas, or way under estimate the abilities of Israel. neither Hamas or at present Hezbollah has any planes, tanks, drones you know the things it would take to actually destroy another country.
There is also the matter of negotiations and peace talks with the Palestinians and those you completely ignore, it would seem you want to believe that Israel has reason to charge in to Gaza and end it once and for all, so to speak.

[fasttense]

2. Ok, but here is the flaw in the logic.

When does a new more appropriate behavior appear? If we are just clinging to older previously useful values and not adapting. Then when and why do new adaptive behaviors appear because they do eventually appear.

[pelsar]

3. new values appear....

only when its clear that the older ones no longer serve the interest of the holder. Several examples within the conflict:

Begin gave up his cherished values of greater israel for a peace treaty with Egypt, which involved returning the sinai

Many of the israeli left gave up their "accommodation values when the busses started blowing up and gaza failed.....

[notfullofit]

8. Pelsar,

can you give your opinion to this response?

Talkback #1

Title: Syrians and Palestinians talking to Israel despite settlements

Name: Sam

City: State: Canada


If the Palestinians and Syrians don`t talk to Israel because of the settlements, they will find more settlers there when they change their minds. The settlements are of security and religious value to many Israelis. Far leftists may be appalled by them but they hardly make up the majority of Jews.

[LeftishBrit]

6. Very interesting; thank you for posting.

I think this is applicable to so many situations; not just Israel. And makes fascinating points about the settlements.

[notfullofit]

7. Almost missed this, thank you. nt.