The Saudi plan: 100 years of dhimmitude?

[Mosby]

The republished Saudi peace plan - or ultimatum - offers 100 years of dhimmitude, the term for the protected but inferior and vulnerable status of non-Moslem religious and ethnic groupings in Islamic society. It purports to offer normal diplomatic and political relations between Israel and the entire Islamic world if Israel goes back to its 1948 borders and accepts the principle of repatriation of the Palestinian refugees. If Israel does not accept these terms, the subtext is quite clear: The Islamic world retains the option of remaining hostile to our existence.

This subtext rejects a self-evident principle: that Israel's existence and security are, as Barack Obama has declared, sacrosanct. That principle derives from the UN resolutions of 1948 and 1967, and not any decision by our neighbors. Israel is the national home of a first nation returning to its native land. Its existence and security are not negotiable.

To its credit, the Saudi plan implicitly recognizes that the conflict is not between Israel and the Palestinians, but the entire Islamic world. It appears to have come a long way since the three noes of the Arab League's Khartoum summit in 1968: No recognition, no negotiation, no peace. Thirty-four years went by between Khartoum and 2002, when the document was first prepared, and another six to the presentation of the plan in full to the Israeli public. During this time, much blood has been shed in seven wars.

ISRAELIS HAVE good reason to be skeptical about peace plans. While there is a cold peace with Egypt and Jordan, more Israelis have died in the 15 years following the Oslo Accords than in the two previous decades of undeclared wars. Therefore the burden of proof is on those who deny that the Saudi plan offers something between dhimmitude at best and a staged dismantling of Israel as the Jewish national home.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728145886&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Mosby]

1. another viewpoint

The Palestinian Authority recently took the unprecedented step of advertising the Arab Peace Initiative in Hebrew, in the Israeli press. Adverts also appeared throughout the international media, including this newspaper. Many Israelis welcomed it as a step in the right direction.

Yet before the world shouts "eureka", it is important to realise that the Arab initiative cannot be seen as a "take it or leave it" offer. It cannot serve as a diktat, or replace the need for bilateral negotiations, on both the Palestinian and Syrian tracks. The plan is an interesting starting point for negotiations, but the international community should be under no illusions. Elements of the text are a cause for grave concern as regards the survivability of the state of Israel.

The demand that Palestinians should be able to relocate to areas inside the borders of the state of Israel jeopardises Israel's very existence. Most Israelis understand and support the creation of a future Palestinian state. It is difficult, however, to understand why Palestinians, having created a state of their own, would subsequently insist on sending their own people to the Jewish state. Instead of demographically undermining the state of Israel, surely Palestinians would be better able to help build their own nation within their own state.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/09/peace-initiative-israel-palestine

[shira]

2. the rest of the article...

Here are the reasons for this conclusion.

The plan contains no commitment to ending incitement and hate language. The flag of Iran, now more powerful than any of the Arab countries, is one of 29 framing the PA announcement. But Iran's promotion of genocidal motifs straight out of Mein Kampf, along with its terror directed at world Jewry and Israel, goes back to 1979. Even though there is no love lost between the Saudis and the Iranians, the Saudi plan ignores the existential dangers posed by Iran's moving toward nuclear capacity, its support of terror organizations committed to Israel's destruction and its ever increasing bullying of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia itself.

Yet Iranian incitement and hate language is merely one of several epicenters for state sanctioned, sponsored and supported anti-Semitism and anti-Zionism throughout the Arab and Islamic world. Since 2002, when the plan was first published, the Arab regimes, notably Saudi Arabia and Egypt, seem neither able nor willing to curb this toxic incitement in their media, mosques, school texts and Internet - a precondition for preparing their publics for a new era of mutual respect, live and let live, and dignity. Because such incitement and hate language ensures the intergenerational transmission of hate, it means that diplomatic and political agreements the regimes will sign on will not be sustainable.

SINCE 2002, the Arab League's and League of Islamic Countries' message to Israel refers to "normal relations between states," but the messages to its own populations are still permeated by hate and incitement. None of the Arab states have banned distribution of Mein Kampf and they continue to propagate propaganda based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. They also continue to use UN diplomatic forums for delegitmizing Israel. Arab diplomats still engage in crude public attempts at delegitimization, such as at the Annapolis "peace summit," where they refused to enter through the same door with Israeli diplomats.

Such gestures, if anything, delegitimize their practitioners. State sanctioned incitement has been repackaged as anti-Zionism. Even the newly "moderate" West Bank PA still engages in varieties of soft incitement, such as omitting Israel from its maps and referring to toleration in terms of the Islamic-Christian tradition, thus implicitly rendering Israel Judenrein.

The plan says nothing about non-state actors, notably Hizbullah - for all practical purposes, an agent of Iran - and Hamas in control of the Gaza Strip, and what they will do, no matter what the leaders of Arab countries decide to sign on.

The plan refers to rights to repatriation of the descendants of approximately 600,000 Palestinian refugees from 1949, but ignores the rights of some 870,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands and their descendants. Nor is there any reference to the effect of Arab pressures on the British Mandate in bringing about the White Paper, which was, for all practical purposes, a death sentence for millions of Jews caught in Hitler's Europe. The harsh truth is that neither Palestinian nor Jewish survivors or descendants can return to the homes of their parents.

THE APPALLING treatment of religious minorities by many Arab regimes is another reason for skepticism concerning the Saudi plan. Coptic and Assyrian Christians, Baha'is, Armenians, Yazdis and other minority religious group have experienced persecution, expulsions and genocidal mass atrocities in many of the 29 countries, notably Egypt, Iraq, Sudan and Iran. In the PA itself, since the Oslo Accords, the Christian population is rapidly diminishing. Here would be the elements of an Israeli answer to the billion or so people in the Arab and Islamic world.

The first requirement of any peace plan has to be respect for life and human dignity of all minorities in the region. This means respecting the sacrosanct status of Israel's existence and security, and in parallel, stopping the persecution, overt and covert, of religious minorities and eliminating incitement and hate language in school texts, mosques and media. It means fostering more open and direct contacts on based on respect for life, live and let live, and promoting such contacts in matters which promote and protect life, not death: water technology, agriculture, renewable energy, public health and medicine.

Israelis expect respect for human life and dignity, not dhimmitude.

The writer has been involved in regional projects in cooperation in public health for the past 25 years, and is now investigating the effects of incitement in promoting genocide.

[shira]

4. antisemitic incitement in PA

http://www.adl.org/issue_israel/anti-semitism_pa.asp
http://www.adl.org/issue_israel/anti-semitism_pa_quotes.asp

more recently:

on Hamas TV
http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_apr2008.html#b300408

PA hate incitement
http://www.pmw.org.il/Bulletins_Nov2008.html#b061108

PA promotion of racism and antisemtism
http://www.pmw.org.il/Racism%20&%20antisemitism.htm

==============================

From the article in the OP:

Since 2002, when the plan was first published, the Arab regimes, notably Saudi Arabia and Egypt, seem neither able nor willing to curb this toxic incitement in their media, mosques, school texts and Internet - a precondition for preparing their publics for a new era of mutual respect, live and let live, and dignity. Because such incitement and hate language ensures the intergenerational transmission of hate, it means that diplomatic and political agreements the regimes will sign on will not be sustainable.

==============================

[cali]

7. yeah, and there's no anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian rhetoric in Israel

Oops. Yes there certainly is.

[shira]

9. state sponsored?

oops...no.

All societies have their whackadoodle kooks. It's HOW those societies deal with them that is the key. To compare Israel's media to the arab world is simply outrageous.

[cali]

11. Livni. Feiglin. Lieberman. Yeah, I'd say that counts.

I agree that the media in Arab countries and Iran shouldn't be compared to Israel's media. And of course, I did no such thing- though I think Arutz is a pretty vile rag.

[Vegasaurus]

13. We've been over this in another thread

There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between the state-sponsored anti-semitic bigotry and racism that is rampant is every avenue of the Palestinian life, from children's TV to cartoons.

[cali]

3. this just reads like incendiary right wing garbage.

Like all peace plans, the Saudi one is a starting place. Characterizing it as 100 years of dhimmitude is just cheap rhetoric.

[shira]

5. the ADL and PMW are incendiary RW garbage?

better get that memo to incoming Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton asap, before she goes all RW on the planet.....oh yeah, and all progressives in the US Congress who also buy into this "garbage".

[cali]

6. I didn't say that. I said it reads like RW garbage. And it does.

And who the hell are you to proclaim that progressives in the Congress buy into this kind of rhetoric?

[shira]

8. all I'm saying...

is that the ADL and PMW are not RW garbage. They are used as primary resources by progressives and RW'ers in Congress. PMW, in particular, is used by none other than our incoming Sec. of State, HRC. The author of the article is not bringing us anything new that PMW or the ADL hasn't covered extensively already.

The Saudi Plan is not a starting point. Ending incitement based on racism and hatred is the starting point - and has always been a primary progressive value. Glossing over that (ending incitement) to the point of minimizing it (and I'm not claiming your are doing so) will guarantee that the Saudi Plan, or any other plan, will fail.

[cali]

10. you're just wrong. Our incoming Prssident sees it as a starting point

and tough for you that he's the one who gets to make policy- not you. Hate on both sides can't be ended by policy. It's naive to think it can be.

[Mosby]

12. Obama's team spoke about his "support" for the initiative

A senior adviser to Barack Obama on Sunday denied reports that the U.S. president-elect plans to throw his weight behind the 2002 Arab peace plan, which calls for Israel to withdraw from all territories captured during the 1967 Six-Day War in exchange for normalized ties with the Arab world.

The British Sunday Times said Obama expressed this sentiment during his visit to Israel and the Palestinian territories last July.

Dennis Ross, Obama's adviser on Middle East policy, issued a statement Sunday, saying "I was in the meeting in Ramallah. Then-senator Obama did not say this, the story is false." The Times cited a senior adviser who quoted Obama as telling Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas: "The Israelis would be crazy not to accept this initiative. It would give them peace with the Muslim world from Indonesia to
Morocco."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1037578.html

Does it really matter where they start? The issues have not really changed other than some security concerns.

[shira]

15. Anyone who thinks there will be peace based on the Saudi plan...

without the Arab and Muslim govts of the region turning OFF the hate factories in their media, is simply delusional.

How can Israel be at peace regionally if all surrounding Arab govts continue to preach only hate and intolerance of Israelis and Jews, and HURT/KILL those within their societies who would dare disagree and try to have TRULY normal relations with Israel?

An agreed upon Saudi Peace Plan that does nothing to stop or slow down the hate factories is bound to fall apart. My bet is on Obama being WAY to smart to go for a doomed plan like that.

[azurnoir]

16. So Israel plans on keeping the occupation going

because of what the media in other Arab countries is saying, ya that's sure to solve some problems. bur is an actual peace plan the goal here?

[shira]

18. well....

how do you make peace with a govt firmly committed to keeping its citizens hateful and intolerant of the "other"? to the point of prosecuting those within their society who try to build bridges? you think that will result in a lasting peace?

it's pretty hard to end the occupation and trust the opposing govt to cease all hostilities when that opposing govt is still telling its own citizens to be extremely hostile, hateful, and intolerant of Israel.

that's hardly a relationship that the Saudis should tote as "normal". if that is "normalizing" relations, what makes it so much better than what Israel has regionally now with the rest of the Arab world?

In Egypt, they won't even allow life-saving medication from Israel to save their own civilians.
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3600326,00.html

yes, it's better than war, but "normalization" of relations? and for how long can this last without stopping the propaganda hate-machine that brainwashes generations of children to hate Israelis and Jews? why shouldn't we expect their govt's to act more responsibly?

if terror continues after this "normalization" of relations, for what REASON would it continue, if not antisemitism? politically, the situation would be solved once and for all. all that would remain is antisemitism, right?

[azurnoir]

19. ':scuse me what has this got to do with

with negotiations that are officially at the moment over the West Bank, so Egypt doesn't allow medications from Israel. besides Israel is not the only source of the drug you mention Creon 1000 and the company that invented and manufactures the drug Solvay is not Israeli either it is South African

http://www.solvay.com/

[pelsar]

20. you miss the point....

educating ones youth to hate your neighbor... forbidding professionals to interact with colleagues in the neighboring state does not lead to long term peace.....it leads to continued hate and war.....its bad enough when done privately...but from the government?

which is why after WWII germany, france, UK etc went through their school books and removed all the hateful propaganda that poisoned their youth...

i take it you wouldnt have a problem with teaching white folks that them black ones aint to smart because of their lowered forehead?.....or is just against israeli jews you dont see a problem?

[azurnoir]

21. telling me what I think again

or is it just a theory or political point

[pelsar]

22. just trying to clarify things..

you seem to believe that govts that have institutional hate and demonization towards neighboring countries somehow isnt really an obstacle towards peace.....and at best should be ignored or assumed to not be of significance....

at least your posts sure give that impression....

[azurnoir]

23. Well the peace with Egypt has lasted 30 years now

unless your predicting that its ending soon, as far as your point about "Black folks" as you put it your speaking of citizens of the same country which would put it in the same category as the Israeli Palestinian/Israeli Jews not neighboring ones such as Egypt, Jordan or Saudi Arabia which is not really neighboring at all.

edited to add: come to think of it aren't you really doing the reverse here when it comes to Arab countries? No you don't say that Israel hates them you just pointing out how superior Israel is because there is no publicly proclaimed hatred and how bad those other countries are actually a much more effective form hate in a way because it is masked as something else.

[pelsar]

25. yes the israeli govt is superior

there is no question in my mind that a democratic country whos govt organs do not produce or support films, education etc that demonize other people and countries is a superior form of society than those that do.

i have no idea what you trying to hint at: actually a much more effective form hate in a way because it is masked as something else.

what is being masked and what is something else and how is it more effective?...try, instead of hinting that israel is somehow really really evil, just writing it out in simple clear english what your trying to say (of course that means you'll have to make a definitive statement-something you seem to avoid at all costs)

and dont forget the examples of how the govt is doing whatever your claming its doing......and how its more effective....

[azurnoir]

27. Paraphrasing yet again?

and this time with a very clear intent of changing the meaning, the entire quote

"come to think of it aren't you really doing the reverse here when it comes to Arab countries? No you don't say that Israel hates them you just pointing out how superior Israel is because there is no publicly proclaimed hatred and how bad those other countries are actually a much more effective form hate in a way because it is masked as something else."

I was not speaking of the Israeli government as you attempt to purport, but of those here who here who use this technique and really here it not more effective except in an echo chamber sort of way at least on this forum, I can not say on the net as a whole.

[pelsar]

28. not paraphrasing...just the core of it...

your quote is long and has several points and i was attempting to concentrate on the part that was the "jist" of it, the part that was vague and unclear:

what is this "technique" the that is so effective....what is it "masked as" you seem to be saying that some people use a far more effective way of teaching "hatred and demonization" of a neighboring society than those govts that do it

so explain in really simple english just what this "thing is".....i have no idea what your talking about (is it the internet-forums? blogs?)

[azurnoir]

29. I already did Pelsar n/t

[pelsar]

33. now i got it....

comparing a democracy to a dictatorship and claiming the democracy is superior is racist....and hateful


so does that go for every comparison?....claiming barak is better than mccain ....is that also racism and creates hate

comparing norway to zimbabwa is that racism?
____

does comparing socieities and rating them create racism?....the UN does it constantly, so are they too racists?

i guess the idea is utterly so absurd i simply didnt get it the first time....so is this just an israel/arab thing? or is comparing all societies racist (the answer should be rather entertaining...should the professions of anthropology, sociology be termed racists?)

[azurnoir]

35. Well you certainly have something

go with it if you think you can, But really I would love to hear more about your High School experience in Tel Aviv in the '70's was it?

[pelsar]

39. i wasnt in israel in the 70's

high school was in the States as was college...i came after (dont know where you got that from...)

[shira]

30. what?

"edited to add: come to think of it aren't you really doing the reverse here when it comes to Arab countries? No you don't say that Israel hates them you just pointing out how superior Israel is because there is no publicly proclaimed hatred and how bad those other countries are actually a much more effective form hate in a way because it is masked as something else."

comparing hate societies to tolerant societies is a form of hate in itself? do you think it's racist? you don't see it as comparing the leadership of each society?

when HRW, AI, and other human rights orgs say they expect more from Israel and that's why they focus more on Israel, is that also a similar form of hate or racism?

[azurnoir]

32. Not really they do not compare Israel to

third world countries as measure of who's superior also they do not exclusively condemn Israel as has been claimed by someone here. Israel's supporters want Israel to be considered a first world nation but also want to use third world countries as a yard stick by which to measure its actions.

[pelsar]

34. your wrong...

we're comparing the neighborhood and the cultures that exist within that neighborhood...given that the cultures have a major impact on the war and peace of the area a study and comparison are essential.

pretending that the differences have no impact on the people and their actions is absurd at best....but more appropriate, idiotic.

besides, i think only a single standard should be used for looking at societies....i guess you have different ones

btw....isnt syria and egypt far older societies than europe, i doubt they look upon themselves as "third world", nor would lebanon or saudi arabia......in fact what countries are your referring to when you write "third world"?

[azurnoir]

36. The age of a society has nothin to do with

First, second, or third world designation; it is a solely economic classification and yes i do have different standards I do not think that Chad should compared to America for instance.

[shira]

37. sucks to be in Chad, huh?

I'm certain the leaders love getting away with anything in Chad. Too bad the civilians there are regarded as LESS than others due solely to WHO is the source of oppression.

this is racism, plain and simple.

you're pretty much saying Chad's people rate less than others, like Palestinians, so the UN and other human rights orgs shouldn't focus much, if at all, on them and their issues. better to look for 1st world countries who do LESS damage to others, in comparison, and focus almost solely on that....which suits dictators worldwide as they get to point the finger elsewhere, and you're allowing for that.

not very progressive.

maybe Chad people should start "resisting" and calling for the overthrow of the govt. maybe that would evoke more sympathy for their human rights. :sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

41. Oh the Humanity

you're pretty much saying Chad's people rate less than others, like Palestinians, so the UN and other human rights orgs shouldn't focus much, if at all, on them and their issues. better to look for 1st world countries who do LESS damage to others, in comparison, and focus almost solely on that....which suits dictators worldwide as they get to point the finger elsewhere, and you're allowing for that.

oh so noble so superior so disingenuous and then that ultimate charge of RACISM ah ya right so you would have Chad judged by the same standards of as the US perhaps what you are really saying is that them there Africans should just boot strap themselves up out of poverty instead of lying around taking aid from the rest that seems to be the jist of your statement when one reads between the lines oh yes you use such lofyt terms as "civil right" and then top it off with your usual and several times proven false accusation that human rights organizations just do not pay any attention to Africa.

[pelsar]

38. different standards......good to hear..

so which people dont deserve the full civil rights package?

is it by nationality, skin color, religion

[shira]

40. some people's civil rights

are more important than others, apparently....no shocker there.

Of course, human rights violations against Palestinians is more important than human rights violations against other people due solely to the oppressor.

If the Hamas/PA abuse Palestinian people and their civil rights 100 times worse than Israel, Palestinian human rights rate as low as the people of Chad. There's no outrage over Hamas/PA human rights violations against Palestinians. An obvious racist double-standard, since the oppresor is tolerated more if they're from the same gene pool, or not of the caucasian christian/jewish persuasion. Example being, let the blacks kill the blacks, arabs kill arabs, arabs kill blacks, etc.. it's just "those" people, no outrage there. Racist to the core.

[azurnoir]

42. Apparently to the israeli government Palestinians n/t

[Vegasaurus]

14. We're never going to get anywhere until there is recognition of Israel

that is the starting point.

One can't negotiate with a political entity that does not believe you have legitimacy, and wants you dead.

If Obama does anything, it will be to see if there can be recognition of Israel's place in the middle east.

It isn't going anywhere, and until the Arabs realize that, there will never, ever be peace.

[azurnoir]

17. Nice the Palestinians are being punished for what

other Arab countries do, but any excuse will do. I guess Egypt and Jordan do not count huh?

[Vegasaurus]

24. The Palestinians are punishing themselves

by supporting and endorsing and participating in ongoing violent resistance which only makes their lives miserable.

The Arab countries have been complicit in punishing the Palestninans and using them as political pawns.

[cali]

26. oh, for pity's sake.

you really have no credibility with statements like that. What Israel is doing in Gaza is collective punishment. It's illegal. It's wrong. And I say that as someone who is decidedly not anti-Israel.

[azurnoir]

31. Memo for you

Hillary strumpeted PMW while she held an elected office; an office she had to voted into and was representing her constituency SoS is not an elected office she appointed there is a major difference and what her duties as SoS are and what she did as Senator can be two very different things. Also she has a new NSA or National Security Adviser to deal with James L. Jones Jr. a man with on the ground experience in the West Bank and one who does not lockstep go along with everything Israel does, and who's last report on situation in the West Bank was so scathing of Israel that the current WH refused to publish it, it could be said Obama appointed opposing camps a far more balanced approach.