Gaza families eat grass as Israel locks border

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"AS a convoy of blue-and-white United Nations trucks loaded with food waited last night for Israeli permission to enter Gaza, Jindiya Abu Amra and her 12-year-old daughter went scrounging for the wild grass their family now lives on.

“We had one meal today - khobbeizeh,” said Abu Amra, 43, showing the leaves of a plant that grows along the streets of Gaza. “Every day, I wake up and start looking for wood and plastic to burn for fuel and I beg. When I find nothing, we eat this grass.”

Abu Amra and her unemployed husband have seven daughters and a son. Their tiny breeze-block house has had no furniture since they burnt the last cupboard for heat.

"I can’t remember seeing a fruit," said Rabab, 12, who goes with her mother most mornings to scavenge. She is dressed in a tracksuit top and holed jeans, and her feet are bare.

Conditions for most of the 1.5m Gazans have deteriorated dramatically in the past month, since a truce between Israel and Hamas, the ruling Islamist party, broke down.

Israel says it will open the borders again when Hamas stops launching rockets at southern Israel. Hamas says it will crack down on the rocket launchers when Israel opens the borders.

The fragile truce technically ends this Thursday, and there have been few signs it will be renewed. Nobody knows how to resolve the stalemate. Secret talks are under way through Egyptian intermediaries, although both sides deny any contact."

more

[sabbat hunter]

1. Couple of questions

1) why is Hamas spending money on rockets instead of food for its people
2) Why doesn't Egypt allow food in thru the border it controls ?
3) why is Israel seen as the sole "bad guy" by so many?

[sellitman]

4. Great questions.

Number three will never be addresses by anyone on this sight. All I've gotten back is more rhretoric and propaganda.

[shaayecanaan]

30. Couple of answers...

1) why is Hamas spending money on rockets instead of food for its people

You could say the same for Israel. There are quite a few impoverished Israeli Jews that eat hubeza (a small weed with edible leaves that taste like rocket, which incidentally also grows wild in Israel). In English it is called malva. Unfortunately the Israeli political system runs mainly on graft and corruption, there is very little concern for the poor.

2) Why doesn't Egypt allow food in thru the border it controls ?

The agreement between Egypt, Israel and the EU requires the EUBAM monitors to be in place as well as security to be provided by Fatah's Force 17. Neither the EU nor Israel want Hamas to provide security for the crossing, apparently Israel does not want Egypt to provide security either.

3) why is Israel seen as the sole "bad guy" by so many?

I certainly don't see Israel as the sole bad guy. I can't think of anyone on this site who does. On the other hand, you clearly think of Israel as "the good guy", which is not a very sustainable position either.

While countries can be better or worse, its silly to think of countries as either inherently good or bad. Countries are motivated by their own self-interest, whatever their political stripe.

[pelsar]

34. some corrections.....

The agreement between Egypt, Israel and the EU requires the EUBAM monitors to be in place as well as security to be provided by Fatah's Force 17. Neither the EU nor Israel want Hamas to provide security for the crossing, apparently Israel does not want Egypt to provide security either.

egypt has already opened the border at various times despite israeli protests: letting saudi trucks in with supplies, letting out gazans for medical and religious reasons.....obviously the egyptian border is owned by the egyptians and they open it when they want to.....the agreement has been null and void practically since hamas took over gaza.

as far as israeli poor eating wild weeds to stay alive as you seem to be suggesting.....never heard of it, sounds as wild as gazans eating grass......

[shaayecanaan]

37. You need to get out more...

as far as israeli poor eating wild weeds to stay alive as you seem to be suggesting.....never heard of it, sounds as wild as gazans eating grass....

Both Jews and Arabs have been eating it for 3000 years. Generally it is stewed in oil to try and remove some of the bitterness, although the young leaves can be used in salads.

The fruit of the plant can be eaten. In Israel it is foraged by children who refer to it as lehem aravi.

I read a story once about Filipino guest workers stewing hebeza in coconut milk, the same way they do with wild leaves at home.

I understand some of the trendier eateries have also been using hebeza (in much the same way that European restaurants now use rocket, once regarded as poor man's fare).

[Behind the Aegis]

46. And yet, you had no answers.

"1) why is Hamas spending money on rockets instead of food for its people"

You didn't answer, you "deflected." You spoke about Israel and didn't answer the question.

"2) Why doesn't Egypt allow food in thru the border it controls ?"

Didn't really answer that one either. You provided information, but given cargo has passed through Rafah without the conditions you prescribed, it shows your conclusions are flawed. Of course, in that flawed conclusion, you absolve Egypt, but not Israel.

"3) why is Israel seen as the sole "bad guy" by so many?"

The question wasn't about you or even those at this site. Therefore, you didn't answer this question either...or did you*? Then you add the strawman of "...you clearly think of Israel as "the good guy"...." It is not a "very sustainable position" as it was never made, except by your strawman.

*You deflect the first question and make it about Israel, bypassing the real question. In the second question, you "blame" Israel (along with the EU). You, in question three, go on to say you don't see Israel as the "sole" 'bad guy,' but you offer nothing to explain why others might and instead, throw out a "personal attack (though not really an attack, just can't think of a good word)" against the other poster. Basically, you are correct in your assertion you don't see Israel as the "sole bad guy," but you do see Israel as the primary "bad guy."

[shaayecanaan]

59. Rhetorical answers for rhetorical questions...

"1) why is Hamas spending money on rockets instead of food for its people"

You didn't answer, you "deflected." You spoke about Israel and didn't answer the question.

Hamas spends about 90% of its budget on social services, which compares well with Israel. The simple fact of that was so blatantly obvious I felt obliged to point it out. I suppose Israel feels the need to spend heavily on defense spending, but is it really necessary to have 200-300 nuclear weapons, when 100 would be more than sufficient to kill everyone in every major population centre in the middle East? Surely there is some money there that could be used to alleviate poverty in Israel.

OTOH, rockets made out of sugar, sheet metal and potassium nitrate may have many drawbacks but being expensive isnt one of them. It is a little rich for Americans or Israelis to criticise Hamas for profligate military spending, on a per capita basis they probably both rank amongst the biggest military spenders on Earth.

"2) Why doesn't Egypt allow food in thru the border it controls ?"

I provided an answer. Egypt occasionally disregards the agreement and opens the border crossing anyway. It is probably appropriate that they should. I wish they did it more. Many people, including the Iranians that have recently picketed the Egyptian embassy in Iran, wish they would open the gates and break the blockade.

What you are essentially saying is that Egypt should be blamed for not disregarding the agreement with Israel entirely. There may well be merit in that but it is a strange position for a supporter of Israel to take, given that the blockade depends as much on Israel blocking access by sea as it does Egypt blocking access by land.

"3) why is Israel seen as the sole "bad guy" by so many?"....Basically, you are correct in your assertion you don't see Israel as the "sole bad guy," but you do see Israel as the primary "bad guy."

I don't really see Israel as the primary bad guy, either. I consider that all things being equal, Israel has acted neither better nor worse that most other post-colonial countries (US, Canada, NZ, Australia, South Africa, etc).

I suspect that the answer to your question is the same as the answer to the following questions:-

1) Why did the world care so much for the dead South Africans in Sharpeville but did not care nearly as much about the dead Africans killed by other Africans in Angola, the Congo, Rwanda or Darfur? Further, why did so much criticism of South Africa emanate from countries such as the United States and Australia, which had obliterated and dispossessed their indigenous people to a far greater extent than South Africa?

2) Why did the world care so much about the dead Vietnamese killed in My Lai massacre but did not care nearly as much about the much more numerous massacres conducted by North Vietnamese forces?

3) Why do Americans grieve so copiously for the 3500 people killed in 9/11 but do not make the same effort to commemorate the Oklahoma bombing that was perpetrated by white Americans, or the 20 000 victims of homicide in the US that take place each year? Why do Americans regard foreign terrorism as existentially more threatening than domestic terrorism? Further, why is more attention not given to the fact that white Americans are much more likely than blacks or Hispanics to become spree killers, serial killers or domestic terrorists?

4) Why do Irish people keep the memory of the great potato famine (which affected them specifically), yet do not commemorate the bubonic plague (which killed across all of Europe), when the plague killed just as many Irish per capita as the potato blight did?

I can try and hazard a guess for you, but you may want to think about it yourself.

[shira]

60. to answer some of your questions in part 3

There's general apathy around the world when there is black on black, white on white, arab on arab, arab on black crime/murder, etc. It's when there is white on black, arab on white, jew on arab, etc...that provokes a reaction. It's not the victims people generally care about, it's the oppressor.

The world is generally apathetic to Palestinian suffering, and one only has to look at how Palestinians are treated in refugee camps outside of Israel's range to see this. Virtually no one cares. And hardly anyone cares when there is Palesinian on Palestinian (Hamas on PA) violence, murder, or civil rights abuse. However, when the Jews are perceived as oppressing Palestinians, interest focuses not so much on Palestinians (because the same people who were apathetic about their plight in other circumstances certainly don't care more now that they suffer under Israelis) but on how "bad" Israel treats them.

Google Mia Farrow's recent reaction to problems she saw in the Congo. If that horrid shit happened to the population at the hands of whites or jews, only THEN would it become news worthy of the front page of every newspaper. If it happens at the hands of blacks, arabs, asians, there is general apathy - a shrug, "too bad", let's move on. It's just "those" people over there. The victims in the Congo aren't strapping bombs to themselves while steeped in intolerance and hate for other people not like them. They're far more deserving of sympathy. And they get hardly any.

[shaayecanaan]

65. Yes...

I'd agree with all of that, particularly the Congo.

Its perfectly true that nobody much cares when Arabs kill Arabs. Nobody cared when the Palestinians were expelled from Kuwait. No-one cared when the Syrians killed 50000 Lebanese during the civil war.

On the other hand, if 1000 people were to die in Israel tomorrow from bird flu or heart disease I doubt you'd care much either.

By and large, I consider that Israel is criticised for many of the reasons that South Africa was. Many of the countries in Africa were glad to have a white bogeyman they could rail on to hide the fact that they were corrupt and incompetent. White people liked to rag on South Africa to show what good judicious liberals they were. Apartheid has been demolished and yet the standard of living for most Africans there is as miserable as it ever was, but I doubt many of the white liberals care any more.

[pelsar]

67. more interesting is zimbabwa....

a wealthy food exporting country with apartheid has now been turned in a ....last i read inflation was at 1 million percent, no food, nothing.....along with such incredible ineptness in government is the violence, but its black on black, with black leaders..so it really doesnt count as much

[shaayecanaan]

72. Good example...

I remember when Mugabe first started getting criticism back in 2001 or thereabouts - there was far more attention given to the one or two white farmers that were killed in the violence, as compared with the many more black people that died.

Another example would be the Bernard Madoff scandal that has recently erupted. Madoff was basically running a $50 billion ponzi scheme, simply fabricating returns and paying out investors from the money that was coming in. He is Jewish, but the victims of his scheme were also predominantly wealthy Jews. Had his victims been struggling working class slobs, I dare say coverage of the event would be different.

[Vegasaurus]

68. It's always easier to blame "colonialism", "imperialism", "apartheid"

or any other terminology, rather than for these oppressive countries, which have hideous human rights abuses, to accept that they are responsible for their own predicaments.

No one does care about black on black or Arab on Arab violence.

In fact, across the middle east and Africa, such violence is give a pass.

That's more than regretable, considering that there is at least one ongoing genocide, and myriad other deeply troubling issues happening right now in those regions.

This isn't a "look over there" moment either, since Israel has its share of problems.

But when one is comparing levels of violence, levels of human rights abuses, civil rights infractions, oppression of people, there are different barometers used.

It shouldn't be that way, but apparently, developing counties can't be expected to treat their people decently? That it is always someone else's fault that they can't treat their people with dignity and respect?

Is that what we should draw as a conclusion?

[Behind the Aegis]

61. What interesting spin.

"1) why is Hamas spending money on rockets instead of food for its people"

You didn't answer, you "deflected." You spoke about Israel and didn't answer the question.

Hamas spends about 90% of its budget on social services, which compares well with Israel. The simple fact of that was so blatantly obvious I felt obliged to point it out. I suppose Israel feels the need to spend heavily on defense spending, but is it really necessary to have 200-300 nuclear weapons, when 100 would be more than sufficient to kill everyone in every major population centre in the middle East? Surely there is some money there that could be used to alleviate poverty in Israel.

OTOH, rockets made out of sugar, sheet metal and potassium nitrate may have many drawbacks but being expensive isn't one of them. It is a little rich for Americans or Israelis to criticise Hamas for profligate military spending, on a per capita basis they probably both rank amongst the biggest military spenders on Earth.

You have proof that either Hamas or Israel spends about 90% of its budget on social services? You, again, deflect and address issues in Israel. You have proof Israel has 200-300 nuclear weapons? I doubt it, as no one seems to have that information. The rest of your comment is laughable in its ignorance as if to imply all the defense budget is spent on nuclear weapons. Surely there is money in the Hamas budget to alleviate the supposed "humanitarian crisis" in Gaza. Oh, but you address that by pretending the weapons of Hamas are "simple" and not all that expensive and then deflect again.

""2) Why doesn't Egypt allow food in thru the border it controls ?"

I provided an answer. Egypt occasionally disregards the agreement and opens the border crossing anyway. It is probably appropriate that they should. I wish they did it more. Many people, including the Iranians that have recently picketed the Egyptian embassy in Iran, wish they would open the gates and break the blockade.

What you are essentially saying is that Egypt should be blamed for not disregarding the agreement with Israel entirely. There may well be merit in that but it is a strange position for a supporter of Israel to take, given that the blockade depends as much on Israel blocking access by sea as it does Egypt blocking access by land.

Are you fucking serious?! Let me remind you, your answer was:

The agreement between Egypt, Israel and the EU requires the EUBAM monitors to be in place as well as security to be provided by Fatah's Force 17. Neither the EU nor Israel want Hamas to provide security for the crossing, apparently Israel does not want Egypt to provide security either.

You "blamed" Israel (and the EU) as a reason for food not passing through Rafah, then you turn around and say "Egypt occasionally disregards the agreement and opens the border crossing anyway." You make Egypt out to be a reluctant "hero." What you are essentially saying is when Egypt allows an open border they are being "brave and valiant," but when they don't it is because "they are at the mercy of Israel (and the EU)." I would say that is an odd position to take, but your those like you, it is not. It paints Israel as the "bad guy" and the "others" as their victims.

"3) why is Israel seen as the sole "bad guy" by so many?"....Basically, you are correct in your assertion you don't see Israel as the "sole bad guy," but you do see Israel as the primary "bad guy."

I don't really see Israel as the primary bad guy, either. I consider that all things being equal, Israel has acted neither better nor worse that most other post-colonial countries (US, Canada, NZ, Australia, South Africa, etc).

And yet, you don't see the Palestinian governments as a "bad guy." No, you, and those like you, see Israel as the primary "bad guy" in this situation. You pretend you don't see Israel as the bad guy by comparison, but you leave out the actual events happening in the here and now. This has to be the best deceptive answer presented here! Kudos!

I suspect that the answer to your question is the same as the answer to the following questions:-

1) Why does the world care so much for the dead Palestinians in Gaza but do not care nearly as much about the dead Palestinians killed by other Palestinians and Arabs in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan or Lebanon? Further, why does so much criticism of Israel emanate from countries such as the Iran and Saudi Arabia, which have obliterated and dispossessed their indigenous people to a far greater extent than Israel?

2) Why did the world care so much about the dead Palestinians killed at Sabra and Shatila but did not care nearly as much about the much more numerous massacres conducted by the Jordanians during "Black September"?

Your pathetic strawman -- "3) Why do Americans grieve so copiously for the 3500 people killed in 9/11 but do not make the same effort to commemorate the Oklahoma bombing that was perpetrated by white Americans, or the 20 000 victims of homicide in the US that take place each year? Why do Americans regard foreign terrorism as existentially more threatening than domestic terrorism? Further, why is more attention not given to the fact that white Americans are much more likely than blacks or Hispanics to become spree killers, serial killers or domestic terrorists?

Fun, another pathetic strawman -- 4) Why do Irish people keep the memory of the great potato famine (which affected them specifically), yet do not commemorate the bubonic plague (which killed across all of Europe), when the plague killed just as many Irish per capita as the potato blight did?

Perhaps, you should think about why you feel Israeli are to blame but the Palestinians are just "hapless victims."

[oberliner]

63. Possible source of the 90 percent claim

Is Hamas only a terrorist group?

No. In addition to its military wing, the so-called Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigade, Hamas devotes much of its estimated $70-million annual budget to an extensive social services network. It funds schools, orphanages, mosques, healthcare clinics, soup kitchens, and sports leagues. "Approximately 90 percent of its work is in social, welfare, cultural, and educational activities," writes the Israeli scholar Reuven Paz. The Palestinian Authority often fails to provide such services; Hamas's efforts in this area—as well as a reputation for honesty, in contrast to the many Fatah officials accused of corruption—help to explain the broad popularity it summoned to defeat Fatah in the PA's recent elections.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968/

[Behind the Aegis]

64. So, basically, spin.

[shaayecanaan]

66. So the Council on Foreign Relations is just a propaganda organ for Hamas?

I never knew...

[Behind the Aegis]

69. Not them....

[Violet_Crumble]

89. Reuven Paz? n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

2. I agree with Israel on this. No opening of anything while Palestinians are waging war on Israel nt

[Maat]

5. To starve people .... for any reason ...

is morally reprehensible.

The Israelis responsible for this blockade are monsters, pure and simple.

The Egyptians failing to open the borders to allow food in are monsters, pure and simple.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

21. Wait a minute. People move in next door to me, and they're shooting at me when I walk out of my

house... but I have to support them nonetheless?

I DONT' THINK SO.

[Violet_Crumble]

90. The civilians of Gaza aren't shooting at anyone....

That's the first flaw in that incredibly inept analogy. The second is that the people of Gaza didn't move in next to anyone.

These sorts of analogies that attempt to justify the punishment of civilians for the actions of either their govt or militant groups are really unacceptable regardless of what civilian group it's aimed at...

[oberliner]

94. How would you classify the Gazans who are shooting rockets at Israel?

Would you call them militants?

[Violet_Crumble]

100. Are you defending the use of that analogy, Oberliner?

I can't see any other reason for such a strange question. Maybe you could explain?

[oberliner]

102. What is the difference between a civilian and a militant?

Is there a consistent way of differentiating between the two? What would you call the Palestinians who launch rockets at Israel? a Palestinian who tries to stab a soldier at a checkpoint? an Israeli settler who attacks a Palestinian in Hebron?

I just wonder if there are any mutually agreed-upon definitions of these terms. There are websites that identify the numbers of Palestinians and Israelis killed in the conflict, on the Israeli side it is easy to categorize soldiers from civilians, but it seems harder on the Palestinian side since they do not have an army.

The exchange between you and the other poster made me think about this issue; it is not directly in response to the exchange itself.

[Violet_Crumble]

122. The same difference as there is between Israeli civilians and extremist settlers/Kahanists...

I'm wondering how you'd react if someone were to reply the way you just did to a post objecting to someone using such an analogy to justify the collective punishment of all Israelis by making no distinction between them and those who are combatants. Y'know, pop in with a question designed to raise the question: 'well, gosh. It's like really hard for me to tell the difference, and if I can't tell the difference easily then isn't it quite reasonable that the entire population does get treated as though they're all combatants?' Well, crap on that. It's exactly the same sort of justification that Palestinian groups have used in the past for attacks on Israeli civilians, and it's as unacceptable when it comes to Palestinians as it is to Israelis.

[oberliner]

123. Did not mean to offend

My argument is that those who launch rockets at Israel are not civilians but militants and their deaths should not be viewed as civilian casualties in my view. There is no justification for any attacks on civilians by anyone, and I'm not expressing agreement with any analogies.

[shira]

124. you wrote "the civilians of gaza" are not shooting at anyone"

so who's shooting? Were some Irish or Mexicans imported?

I hear those people in Iceland are itching to get into the fight.

[aquart]

3. Simple solution: The Egyptians stop blockading.

Oh, I'm sorry. Were we pretending that there is only ONE border and only ONE way out?

Why aren't their fellow Arabs the Egyptians opening their borders to these wonderful, needy people?

[Hardrada]

6. Egyptians are bloostained too.

One need not taunt suffering people however. The veneer of civilization wears very thin here.

[azurnoir]

7. No there is always the port of Gaza too

which is the strips largest border; odd how that never gets mentioned why are some so anxious to condemn Egypt?

[pelsar]

12. missiles on askelon...a city of over 100,000

large boats bringing in supplies will probably bring in the larger missiles so that hamas can shoot at the larger cities and terrorize the occupants there as well....(the kassams are now reaching the outskirts)

i guess thats not really a problem from your point of view.....in fact its probably irrelevant

[azurnoir]

8. Geez is there hunger in Gaza

why one of our most esteemed posters here just posted pictures showing that all the children of Gaza are happy and cherubic playing on amusement park rides, why these stories of hunger are a fabrication by people out to "get" Israel doncha' know :sarcasm:

[shira]

9. thanks for the heads up

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x227161#227367

the pics are in posts #16-17.

not quite the pictures some here are determined to portray.

[azurnoir]

23. So glad you are not above self promotion

yes it was my mistake about publish date of the photo's in #16 did you not notice or hope we would not the headline with those pictures

"Palestine today," involved children of Gaza, the holiday cheer despite the embargo

and actually the kids do not look that cheerful

now on to #17
Dear apparently you did not know that slitting the throat of animals the "mutilation" you mention ,is both the Halal and Kosher method of slaughter as it considered more humane and the blood can be more easily drained that way

[Vegasaurus]

26. At least in Kosher slaughter

(which is very similar, if not almost identical to Halal, except for the prayers), the animals are HUNG, so that their blood will drain easily (gravity and all).

It isn't killed on the ground, and certainly not as shown in those photos.

Kicking the animal, stepping on it (as is shown in those pictures) is decidedly AGAINST any Kosher (or Halal) method that I have ever heard of.

[pelsar]

10. gotta love the PR of hamas...

since israel left gaza it has proven time and time again that when hamas stops trying to kill israelis the borders are open...when they try to kill israelis they are closed...


so what does hamas do?..they shoot rockets (i.e. try to murder and terrorize israelis) and then say:
Hamas says it will crack down on the rocket launchers when Israel opens the borders.

that means we will stop trying to kill israelis if israel opens the border.....its either blackmail or nothing more than PR to get the news orgainizations to write about gaza: All hamas has to do is stop the shooting and the supplies enter via israel

so how many suckers fall for the hamas PR?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. WHO BROKE THE CEASEFIRE?

Did you forget that little factoid?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. self-delete

[shira]

16. Hamas broke the ceasefire

with all the daily Kassams reigning down PRIOR to their tunnel-digging adventure and Israel's response, I'd say Hamas broke the ceasefire almost to the day after they signed it. Or do daily kassams not count as ceasefire violations?

[pelsar]

18. nope.....

do you count mortars and kasams as breaking the cease fire since a few did come on down before israel entered and destroyed the tunnel that was facing israel......

israel ignored them....tunnels dont get to be ignored......
_______


but you gotta admit hamas is very very very good.....their actually negotiating a "cease fire" and in the meantime people dont seem to get it: the cease fire consists of hamas not shooting mortars, and kassams at israel and all they have to do is stop shooting and supplies flows in......and they can do that at any time...in the meantime gazans are "starving" in their ghetto while hamas plays politics with the known outcome. (and few if any blame them-teflon coated)

damn they're good

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. Nonsense. It is widely acknowledged that Israel broke the ceasefire during the elections in the USA

while the rest of the world wasn't looking.

Pretty sly. Not.

[pelsar]

22. oops

they 're not much in the news since its pretty acceptable for hamas to try to murder israelis....but here is a short list during the "cease fire"

kassams landing in israel: a partial list
sept 17 -

sept 22

October 8, 2004

October 30th, 7:47am,

nov 4 israel invades gaza and destroys tunnel

November 18, 2008 10 kassams

____

like i wrote: hamas has got the PR stuff down pretty good, they try to kill israelis and when israel responds...israel is breaking the cease fire .....they're better than israel thats for sure.

[azurnoir]

24. Lets see

Israel claimed it found tunnels and bombed them and then sent armed drones to attack a refugee camp, then unilaterally declared it had not broken the cease fire. Never mind that up until then Hamas had been arresting those firing rockets, if Israels intent had been anything save provocation it would have chosen a cooperative method.

[Vegasaurus]

25. The rockets continued without any response from Israel

That is not a ceasefire anywhere in the world, except in the I/P conflict, where there are different rules for Arabs.

[pelsar]

27. love the humor.....

if Israels intent had been anything save provocation it would have chosen a cooperative method.

the tunnels are hamas, hamas shoots rockets at israelis during the ceasefire, hamas makes tunnel to kidnap israelis.........israel decides to destroy tunnel...and so israel is the bad guy?

but as you explained, you don't judge by a single standard...i guess you have one for israel and one the Palestinians correct?

[azurnoir]

28. So now it is Hamas again?

for a long while it was not Hamas but militants ok it them when we say its them it others when we say its others, is that it?
And yes as I pointed out I would not expect a developing country to judged by the same standards as America,the UK, Canada, or the EU for that matter.
Is Israel the bad guy? sometimes yes, sometimes no

The closest to Hamas I have heard on this was an NPR story a couple of hours agowwhere in Hamas annouced that they did not think the "cease fire" would be continued, for me it was like gee ya think news flash it ended 6 weeks ago.

[pelsar]

33. i have one standard....makes it easier to be consistent

perhaps thats the problem, when your trying to find contradictions with what i write.....its hard......hamas owns gaza...just as the israeli govt 'owns israel. Each is responsible for the happenings on its own territory in my "one standard rule." It doesnt make a difference who actually shoots the rockets coming from gaza....hamas is the responsable party....such is the price of governing.

this double standard of yours...so how does it work?...i'm trying to figure out which civil rights arent as important in developing countries, for which actions isnt the govt responsable for.....perhaps you can list them?

is trying to kill your neighbor excusable, is not feeding your population ok for the "developing countries".....

[azurnoir]

35. So xplain how your one standard applies to Egypt

you rant on and on about Egypt not opening its borders for aid shipments but yet it is ok for Israel hows that work? Also there is the matter of the port of Gaza how is ok for Israel yet provocation for war when Egypt did it?
Oh I already know the stock answer "security" the "if they did it or said it once we can punish forever", unless of course they can do real damage that is part is unspoken. Israel signed a peace deal with Egypt and it still works. However on that principle perhaps the same could be applied to Israel.

[pelsar]

36. its a simple standard....

the safer one is the one to go with.....

i realize you dont like the stock answer that trying to kill israelis and even attacking the supply ports is reason to close the borders.yet for those who actually have to be there, risking ones life does have some weight (and the state recognizes its responsibility)...especially since there is a safer route: egypt
----

since obviously going through egypt is the safer route (hamas isnt sending kassams over there, just at israel)..just curious why you think so little of israeli lives...why should they risk their lives when there is a safer route?....or do you believe the israelis arent risking their lives when they open up the border?


the port?....israel doesnt need missiles on ashkelon....and closing it is not a provocation for war, the war is already on, been going on since israel left.

a simple question, of whos answer i shall write down: do you believe hamas will try to send missiles into the larger city of ashkelon if they have the chance...and if they have a port will then import them? (i wont ask if israel should do anything about it, because you wont answer anyway)
______

I already know the stock answer "security" the "if they did it or said it once we can punish forever", just curious....you do know that missiles and mortars land almost daily right?...so what is the "punish forever"..why do you ignore those almost daily kassams (or do they not count?)


as far as i understand, and try to be very very honest here; from your point of view, as i understand, israel should always keep the supplies coming in (and this would include when the border supply depots are attacked) and as far as kassams go..practically israel should do nothing to stop them (note the word practically).

try not to be vague in answering, if you decide to.

[azurnoir]

38. If i decide to?

first off you continuously disingenuously interpret my answers but I have come to expect that.

i realize you dont like the stock answer that trying to kill israelis and even attacking the supply ports is reason to close the borders.yet for those who actually have to be there, risking ones life does have some weight (and the state recognizes its responsibility)...especially since there is a safer route: egypt

Lets see Palestinians you claim are trying to kill Israeli's they are not trying all to hard are they not at least from the numbers, whereas Israel does kill Palestinians and in impressive numbers but in your mind 100 Palestinian lives are still not as valuable as 1 Israeli have I got that right?

a simple question, of whos answer i shall write down: do you believe hamas will try to send missiles into the larger city of ashkelon if they have the chance...and if they have a port will then import them? (i wont ask if israel should do anything about it, because you wont answer anyway)

I believe I read here that Hamas or militants has already sent missiles into Ashkelon has it not? So apparently having the post open will really have no bearing on that.
As to the question about what Israel should do Israel was doing it for a few months during the cease fire at least until internal politics made it expedient to do other wise

the port?....israel doesnt need missiles on ashkelon....and closing it is not a provocation for war, the war is already on, been going on since israel left.

So it is official the Israeli government has declared war on Gaza I must have missed the announcement.

[pelsar]

39. are kassams dangerous in your mind?

do you consider them a form or terrorism.....because from your posts..it appear not at all. i guess we should at least straighten that out

Lets see Palestinians you claim are trying to kill Israeli's....

____

first off you continuously disingenuously interpret my answers but I have come to expect that.
its not intentional...i just try to understand them better since you rarely write specifics and when you do you quickly write that your were misunderstood...even when the language is very very clear.


for instance:
As to the question about what Israel should do Israel was doing it for a few months during the cease fire

this is a good example: kassams and mortars fell during the "cease fire"....israel did not return fire and you seem to agree to that: my conclusion? you feel that hamas and friends should be able to shoot kassams and mortars (some us think they kill and terrorize people) and the israel govt, IDF should do nothing and let them shoot without disturbance? if that is not what your saying then please be specific:



and before the "cease fire"....when hamas was shooting 10-20 kassams a day....should israel have returned fire or not? (i believe this is a yes or no question)

and yes you missed it when gaza was declared a hostile entity months ago

[azurnoir]

40. First off being declared

an "enemy entity", is not a formal declaration of war, it falls into a grey area in the the world of international law and you know that albeit you have also said that international law does not apply to Israel.

this is a good example: kassams and mortars fell during the "cease fire"....israel did not return fire and you seem to agree to that: my conclusion? you feel that hamas and friends should be able to shoot kassams and mortars (some us think they kill and terrorize people) and the israel govt, IDF should do nothing and let them shoot without disturbance? if that is not what your saying then please be specific:

yes kassams are a form of terrorism although a relatively minor one when compared to other forms as we have seen recently in Mumbai.
Now a question for you until the November 4 Israeli incursion into Gaza it seemed to be accepted that Hamas was making an effort to control the rockets then suddenly it is all Hamas again and to read your posts was along, why is that it seems you follow government talking points quite closely.

What you seem to not be able to accept is that there is no black and white here, no ultimate good guy or ultimate bag guy, whish is why you are never satisfied with mine nor any leftists answers to questions.

[pelsar]

42. your right i dont accept gray answers.....

for they belong only to those who dont have to make any real decisions....

those who can only give gray answers and not definitive ones, who have a flexible double standard (obviously that second standard is not something that can be put into a list).....simply enjoy the luxury of never having to actually make a stand

....some of us live in a very different world where the wrong decision and the right decision can cost lives.......

you have a nice combination there: flexible standards and the refusal to take a stand....makes it pretty easy to complain about israel and be pro Palestinian, since they dont have to be responsible for their actions whereas israel does......
_________

Israel accepting Hamas rockets does have a breaking point.....israel can only accept so much terrorism before striking back, that plus the tunnel going the 'wrong way" was obviously enough....no surprises, hamas knows how to play the game and knows how which strings to pull and when...knowing the suckers will buy it every time.

[azurnoir]

45. There are only grey answers

peace will never be won in an black and white us or them world, right now the Israeli government right wing or at least the right wing of its supporters seem to feel that way when it comes to Palestinians because they have the clear upper hand, there is much howling on this forum about Hamas threatening to destroy Israel, but you know as well as I that Hamas does not have that ability nor will it have that ability in the foreseeable future no matter how much support it gets or from who, they have no airforce, no heavy artillery, no guided missiles, non of the advanced weaponry of Israel so they can shake their fists and rant but that is all, yes there have been deaths from kassams on the Israeli side 15 or 16 I believe but the death toll on the Palestinian side in Gaza is at least 15 times that if not more. It is indeed Israel that has the power to wipe Gaza from the face of the earth,now you say I can dismiss Israeli death which is not true as I dismiss neither, but sir it is you who dismisses Palestinian death you have stated as much, for you is there a limit to how many Palestinians lives are worth one Israeli in your black and white mind or is there a number is it 100 10000 1000000? In my grey world there is fault on both sides but you are clearly unwilling to accept that, instead reverting to the us good them bad mind set that guarantees to keep the status quo

[pelsar]

49. your confusing tactical with strategic...

strategic is peace or war....its a very gray area like the cease fires...tactical is the immediate response or non response to a given action. Whereas the strategic is very confusing involving politics, long term hope and planning....the tactical is far more immediate and has a given set of options....this is not gray, this is infact very black or white: one either responds to a given action with one of the means at ones disposal or one doesnt....either way there will be an immediate reaction (or non reaction) from the other side:

there is no room here for gray...gray means no action....and that too will have a response:

kassams landing in israel ......your gray area which frankly says israel should not respond....makes israelis terrorist victims and life miserable for those within range and encourages attacks on ashkelon...as we have already witnessed.

the helicopter pilot..either shoots a missile or doesnt..if he doesnt he endangers israeli children with the kassam he didn't eliminate...and maybe saves the lives of a few terrorists. Your "gray area" of indecision has consequences, life and death ones.
__________

you ask me the worth of a Palestinian life vs israeli....its easy when you have on standard: both in fact have equal worth, there is no doubt in my mind about that. It is hamas, the govt of gaza that has decided that palestinians lives are worth less than israelis...otherwise why are they trying to terrorize and kill israelis, knowing full well israel will retaliate and kill more Palestinians?

Its human nature to protect ones own over "the other".....and i, like you, follow that pecking order: my family over my neighbor, my neighbor over the stranger, etc etc etc....and the israeli over the Palestinian for i am an israeli. for the Palestinian it will be the opposite for that is human nature.
_____

you miss a major point...israel as a country does an incredible amount of stupid things, dumb policies etc....but when it comes to survival its "less stupid". There are some basic facts that cannot be ignored and in that light its clear what is right and what is wrong:

israel left gaza: period: The was right:

gazans have been trying to kill and terrorize israelis from that day almost without let up......that is wrong

when you have a single standard the right and wrong are clear, its when you have a double standard, when they're shouldnt be one, life gets confusing and contradictory: for those with a double standard, the Palestinians (i'm just guessing here, because i dont understand double standards) are too dumb to understand that killing and terrorizing civilians is unacceptable, but since israel does, the israeli govt should let them try to kill and terrorize as many israelis as they can without interfering (this is the result of your "gray" double standards)

..... or perhaps Palestinians dont understand the definition of a ceasefire, because they have low foreheads, so when they "break it' its doesnt really count.......(again this is from your own posts)

btw just for the record..n my grey world there is fault on both sides i have yet to see you blame the Palestinians for anything...but then i wouldnt expect you too since you have that double standard which translates in my mind to: they cant help themselves, because__________________ (would you fill that in, because i have no idea what to put in there)

the ironic part is, that i obviously think better of the Palestinians that you do....having a lower standard for them, means you think less of them, that they arent as good as a westerner....i disagree, they are on par with any westerner including israelis and consequently should be held to the same standard.

[azurnoir]

54. My what a condraditory post

first you start off with tactical vs strategic ia double standard right there and of course a carefully worded and contrived example such as:

"the helicopter pilot..either shoots a missile or doesnt..if he doesnt he endangers israeli children with the kassam he didn't eliminate...and maybe saves the lives of a few terrorists. Your "gray area" of indecision has consequences, life and death ones.

when its Israelis it is of course children and when its Palestinians it is of course terrorists n obvious double standard right there, but perhaps we're to assume that any Palestinian kill by an Israeli missile is a terrorist, no matter what age.

your answer here is a cop out pure and simple. IDF has recently attacked a refugee camp using a drone but that is the fault of Hamas? Of course you will say it is, but that IDF would to choose to attack a civilian camp with an unmaned drone is questionable at best, I guess those refugees pose a real threat.

you ask me the worth of a Palestinian life vs israeli....its easy when you have on standard: both in fact have equal worth, there is no doubt in my mind about that. It is hamas, the govt of gaza that has decided that palestinians lives are worth less than israelis...otherwise why are they trying to terrorize and kill israelis, knowing full well israel will retaliate and kill more Palestinians?

you have said contrary in the past, and pointed out that this is not a "numbers game"


"when you have a single standard the right and wrong are clear, its when you have a double standard, when they're shouldn't be one, life gets confusing and contradictory: for those with a double standard, the Palestinians (i'm just guessing here, because i dont understand double standards) are too dumb to understand that killing and terrorizing civilians is unacceptable, but since israel does, the israeli govt should let them try to kill and terrorize as many israelis as they can without interfering (this is the result of your "gray" double standards)

your first as I pointed out shows an obvious double standard on your part

and then this gem

.... or perhaps Palestinians dont understand the definition of a ceasefire, because they have low foreheads, so when they "break it' its doesnt really count.......(again this is from your own posts)

that is from one of my posts? gosh I do not remember saying anyone had "low foreheads" or breaking the cease did not count, but I will be sure to use advanced search I must have been in a fugue state when I wrote that

"btw just for the record..n my grey world there is fault on both sides i have yet to see you blame the Palestinians for anything...but then i wouldn't expect you too since you have that double standard which translates in my mind to: they cant help themselves, because__________________ (would you fill that in, because i have no idea what to put in there)

but you do outline the problem quite well here how you chose to translate things oh and perhaps yu should read more comments I do it gives a much more detailed picture of the person one is debating, oh and on the subject of double standards why is that the anti occupation side is constantly expected to qualify comments with it that obvious fact that there is fault on both sides, whilst the pro occupation can self righteously proclaim, that any happening is all he fault of Hamas or the boogey man of the week who ever that is as long as IDF or the Israeli government is totally innocent of anywrong doing, with total impunity, which is exactly why I do not often state that.

[pelsar]

55. your confusing the double standard....

the double standard is using one scale of values to judge one people and a different set to judge another....to have different expectations....it has nothing to do with what kassams/helicopter pilots are shooting at.(i define terrorists as people who target civilians in order to terrorize....the kassam shooters fit that description to me)

its been shown over and over again....when hamas keeps the kassams and mortars away, the IDF doesnt attack (exceptions do exist on hamas planned attacks)......its not ancient history...its history of no more than days, and month.

and you confused numbers with value: lives have similar intrinsic values, that has nothing to do with the IDF being better at killing than the Hamas....and i prefer it that way.

and you've excused the Palestinians firing kassams during the cease fire...as if they are not breaking the cease fire-that was what i was commenting on....why you think firing kassams is not breaking the cease fire is beyond me.....i assume its that different standard your using

____

the "anti occupation side".....rarely if ever is willing to discuss what happens if and when israel leaves the westbank....the few that have actually ventured there (i dont believe you ever did) agreed that there would probably be kassams on jerusalem and TA.....after that admission, the discussion ends......(there was a single exception where the poster said that it israel must accept the kassams and do nothing until they stop....)

if you would be willing to discuss ALL aspects, give straight "operational answers" i.e. what the response of each side would be to the others actions, it might be interesting. I have no problem disagreeing with israeli policies....but at the sametime when i discuss those same policies with people we also discuss real solutions...and we use a single set of values for both israelis and palestineans....no double standards exist for real peace.

[azurnoir]

56. Pure BS on two points

first one:and you've excused the Palestinians firing kassams during the cease fire...as if they are not breaking the cease fire-that was what i was commenting on....why you think firing kassams is not breaking the cease fire is beyond me.....i assume its that different standard your using

I have never excused Palestinians {not bothering with distinctions anymore?) what I have said is that Hamas is/was arresting those firing kassam's

and this:

the "anti occupation side".....rarely if ever is willing to discuss what happens if and when israel leaves the westbank....the few that have actually ventured there (i dont believe you ever did) agreed that there would probably be kassams on jerusalem and TA.....after that admission, the discussion ends......(there was a single exception where the poster said that it israel must accept the kassams and do nothing until they stop....)

I have never seen that stated here on either count. you have been on DU long than I so maybe it was prior to that? There is only one person I could think of that might have stated something like that and he is no longer with us.

if you would be willing to discuss ALL aspects, give straight "operational answers" i.e. what the response of each side would be to the others actions, it might be interesting. I have no problem disagreeing with israeli policies....but at the sametime when i discuss those same policies with people we also discuss real solutions...and we use a single set of values for both israelis and palestineans....no double standards exist for real peace.

what you try to make out as a false "double standard" is in reality taking circumstance and ability in to account, but then such self righteous stances are taken usually by those that have an economic, strategic, and technological upper hand, they can afford to as long as nothing changes which is their aim maintaining the status quo.

Was the closest thing to real peace that being Camp David accomplished by either side seeing only black and white> I doubt it, but the sides were more evenly matched.

[pelsar]

62. first...

the kassams on jerusalem and TA after a pullout...PM admitted that they probably would....(shes as honest as they come here....writes from experience and from the heart)...a few others did as well....

the kassams during the "cease fire* (see below)"....perhaps i miswrote...though i dont believe you defined them as breaking the cease fire.....i see that as an excusing them. If hamas enters a cease fire and cant/wont enforce it, then they have two choices: either dont enter the cease fire or admit that israel may have to enforce what they cant...otherwise they're doing the old Arafat trick:
declare a ceasefire and let others do the killing and terrorizing (deniability)......

---
so this is how you use the double standard?
what you try to make out as a false "double standard" is in reality taking circumstance and ability in to account,

i differentiate between intent and action.. the intent has a single standard and all must be held to it..(of which i declare the western values as the set of values to use). If group B (palestinians) cannot achieve those values, they are not excused...they may be aided and helped to achieve them, but the standard remains the same. Civil rights belong to all citizens....if a govt cant "give them, then they are not excused, they are "scolded" and helped in getting there, but by no means are they excused.

perhaps hamas doesnt have full control over every jihadnik group in gaza as israel does not have control over every extremist.....it doesnt mean they are not both responsible for their actions. If hamas cant control the kassams, assuming they want to, then they shouldnt enter agreements that they cant uphold.....

I assume you disagree with that (just guessing)..the consequence?....kassams terrorize israel, hamas shrugs their shoulders, and israelis are terrorized,.....because they dont have the ability to do any better...if i got that wrong, explain how.

you may now wonder i think the "cease fire" was good...in fact in hebrew it wasnt called a cease fire, nor in arabic, it was called a 'relaxing period"..though that is a poor translation. No ceasefire, just a reduction in the violence, which is a better description of the events, of which i am for....i am against calling it a ceasefire since it never was, an hamas as far as i understand did participate in some of the kassam launchings.

[azurnoir]

70. Wow who'd of "thunk" it?

the kassams on jerusalem and TA after a pullout...PM admitted that they probably would....(shes as honest as they come here....writes from experience and from the heart)...a few others did as well....

So you claim that PM made a post confirming one of the main reasons the Israeli government justifies its "forever" occupation of the West Bank? Hmmmm that is a surprise however did she say probably or possibly there is a difference I mean Shaul Mofaz, Avi Dichter, Ishmail Haniyeh, and Abu Mazen could possibly form a circle and dance the hora at midnight on New Years but probably that won't happen.Anything is possible but not everything is probable. I say all that because I have seen others and have said myself that such an occurrence is possible but it is you who has said kassams reining down Jerusalem and Tel Aviv are probable or more often a certainty.

what you try to make out as a false "double standard" is in reality taking circumstance and ability in to account,

i differentiate between intent and action.. the intent has a single standard and all must be held to it..(of which i declare the western values as the set of values to use). If group B (palestinians) cannot achieve those values, they are not excused...they may be aided and helped to achieve them, but the standard remains the same. Civil rights belong to all citizens....if a govt cant "give them, then they are not excused, they are "scolded" and helped in getting there, but by no means are they excused.

What about tyhe civil rights of the Palestinian population of the West Bank? Ah I've got it they are not citizens of Israel who is the occupying power have I gor that right? There is a double standard then one for Israeli's and one for Israel's what POW's or occupied peoples? What is their legal status or is that purposely kept murky so as that certain standards do not apply, how clever.The one main purpose of your varying single standard is that Israel always wins the legal debate and in fact that has become the hallmark of the politics concerning Israeli occupation and siege of Gaza at times actually using the letter of the law to entirely crush the spirit of the law such would be the case with nuclear weapons in Israel and the claim never definitively proven though that Iran is developing nukes even though Iran has stated otherwise more than once.
As for differentiating between intent and action we're all too familiar with that one it gets called into play every time a group of kids playing soccer is strafed by a drone or some other similar incident occurs.

assume you disagree with that (just guessing)..the consequence?....kassams terrorize israel, hamas shrugs their shoulders, and israelis are terrorized,.....because they dont have the ability to do any better...if i got that wrong, explain how.

Now that is a shining example of what I wrote above the kassams terrorize Israelis and we hear about that all the time what we never hear about is how the people of Gaza are terrorized by Israel the trauma in having your neighborhood bombed by state of the art jets, not knowing when an unmanned drone will fly over head shoot you, not knowing when a nervous teenager with big big gun and an IDF uniform will decide your walking a few feet to close to a fence and kill you, but terrorizing Palestinians is not the intent of these actions right it is only to protect Israelis, how convenient.On that same thought while you carry on about terrorized Israelis is that the intent of the kassams, I could swear you have said it was only to kill Israelis. Shifting standards at best.

[pelsar]

71. the core... differentiating between intent and the action

i understand why you dont like the differentiation....its a moral/value distinction that is recognized in every western court in the world...its the part of the core for the western value and justice system....and if one applies it to the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians with their targeting of civilians come out on the "losing end". This is where your double standard comes in...the only way to defend the Palestinian shooters is to give them a different standard....that their intention, to terrorize and kill as many israelis as possible doesnt really count.

and the shining example is also a prime example of our double standard....i give you credit, you admit that there is one, though you dont explain why the Palestinians need a lower standard.....will you?

we hear more about the kassams since they are launched almost daily with the sole reason to terrorize and kill (sorry i dont write with precision all the time, it will be easy to catch in me those details, but not in moral principles), something the western world finds unacceptable...the IDF attacks have specific targets and as time has shown arent active when the kassams are not being launched, at attitude that is more acceptable to the western world...but that acceptance is based on a single standard.

so now is your chance....why do the Palestinians get a lower standard, that killing and targeting civilians is to be excused or at least on par with those who attempt not to kill civilians....you never did explain
____

a footnote..unlike you with your play on "speculations and possibles, maybes and all those words used not to make a clear statement...PM writes clear.....the discussion was on what will happen after an israeli pullout and kassams being launched was the realistic scenario....

and a note on civil rights....everyone deserves them... preserving life takes precedent..and the very short history of the westbank shows that only after did the suicide bombers appear did the Palestinians start losing civil rights-i know you dont like to read about it, but the simple fact is, that pre wall and checkpoints, israeli busses were being blown up and people killed, with the wall and checkpoints human lives are now saved....those simple facts have to be ignored if one wants to complain about the checkpoints...so why do you ignore the history? because you dont like it?

[azurnoir]

73. What would the courts find?

understand why you dont like the differentiation....its a moral/value distinction that is recognized in every western court in the world...its the part of the core for the western value and justice system....and if one applies it to the Palestinians and Israelis, the Palestinians with their targeting of civilians come out on the "losing end". This is where your double standard comes in...the only way to defend the Palestinian shooters is to give them a different standard....that their intention, to terrorize and kill as many israelis as possible doesnt really count.

the courts would find that both parties are guilty, Pelsar as I said in a comment you have yet to answer "both ya'll is effed up" that is the problem you want innocence for Israel and guilt for the Palestinians but it is not that easy whether or not you wish to accept that.

As usual you twist every statemnet to fit your needs it makes honest debate impossible, you do not ask questions you make accusations and put a question mark at the end. For my possibilities and probability I am sorry if you did not get my meaning, so once again anything is possible but only somethings are probable its a math problem of sorts Pelsar.

and a note on civil rights....everyone deserves them... preserving life takes precedent..and the very short history of the westbank shows that only after did the suicide bombers appear did the Palestinians start losing civil rights-i know you dont like to read about it, but the simple fact is, that pre wall and checkpoints, israeli busses were being blown up and people killed, with the wall and checkpoints human lives are now saved....those simple facts have to be ignored if one wants to complain about the checkpoints...so why do you ignore the history? because you dont like it?

you see Israel has set it self up as judge jury and executioner the Palestinians do not get a voice, no right to self defense in the trial or in real life, that is commonly called a "kangaroo court" ans for the Palestinians the sentence is indeterminate

As for your proclamations about PM's honesty you were challenging that a few comments down thread, so for you it is a rhetorical point and only when it can be skewed to fit your needs.

[pelsar]

74. so in your world intent has no meaning?

i think your playing with words again ...i.e. not being very honest..or being honest as you see it, but skipping the details...so lets go for the details:

he courts would find that both parties are guilty, Pelsar as I said in a comment you have yet to answer

would the courts find both parties equally guilty?

________________

which comment did i skip? repeat and i shall answer....

and i shall give you two to answer:
did the checkpoints and walls stop the suicide bombers?

hamas just launched 20+ kassams on israel, landing in the middle of sederot downtown
should the IDF respond given the limitations of military hardware and if so how?


and a word about PM..i will disagree with her (as an understatement) and i will point out where i think she is wrong.....but she believes in what she is writing as i see it with all her heart through her world view/experiences..its a different culture than mine and i have learned to understand that my "black and white" are not the same as those of hers, different culture and world view...

[azurnoir]

75. Yes intent has meaning

but in my world outcomes have just as much if not more.

hamas just launched 20+ kassams on israel, landing in the middle of sederot downtown
should the IDF respond given the limitations of military hardware and if so how?

read the report on ynet 3 injured hopefully not badly, what should IDF do? What do you think, another "hot winter"? However it seems IDF has already done something and if the report is accurate they did it right

Israeli aircraft launch air strikes in Gaza

Nighttime strikes target weapons cache in Jabaliya, metal workshop used to manufacture rockets and mortars in Khan Younis; no injuries reported, but targets damaged extensively. Four rockets fired from Strip hit western Negev region, but cause no injuries or damage

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3640507,00.html

The courts would find that both parties are guilty, Pelsar as I said in a comment you have yet to answer
would the courts find both parties equally guilty?

I honestly don't know but the trial would be interesting to say the least

Now as far as understanding black and white or really IMO mirror image, you do that well I guess but refuse to understand grey? For myself it reflects life experience and family, no not my daughters now recently former boyfriend, but my own extended family cousins ect. So without meaning to bore I have mentioned that my father is Jewish although secular what I have not mentioned is that on my mothers side her only sibling is married to a Syrian women so my cousins are half Arab so grey is kind of natural and as I was growing up I heard more than one comment about "lets see what happens when the little Heebs and the little A-rabs get together" from other members of that side of the family.

edited to add I almost forgot the comment you asked about the final question is not quite as obnoxious as it seems as I have wondered

in the black and white world
it seems that both sides are self righteously inflexibly sure of themselves how simple me right you wrong
Sometimes taking a stand means saying that "both ya'll is effed up"

edited to ask: is Pelsar Hebrew for persistent?

[pelsar]

76. thats at least clearer....

but in my world outcomes have just as much if not more. which explains a lot of your comments and why only outcomes can be counted on to be measured...but thats a really limited view with no room for long term goals:

what if the US took that view in WWII..and stopped after normanday which didnt go very well for the first month....lots and lots of american dead...so too with the island hopping...guadacanal..... or for that matter the American independence....lots of american dead in the beginning... principles matter and morals, values and intent are what keep civilizations intact..counting the dead and wounded as a score card for right and wrong has little long term meaning....

should russia have quit in WWII after losing so many millions and let the nazis take over?...by your standards that appears to be exactly what you would have proposed.....your view reminds me chamberlins.....anything for short term peace


___
The IDF attacks and knocks off some manufacturing plants....had there been a Palestinian there, would you declare that it was still the proper response or not? and more rockets were now fired....
_____

whereas im inflexible on my moral values and what is right or wrong, it doesnt mean that compromises in the field cant be made. The treaty with Egypt and Jordan are good examples. Both govts support anti jew and israeli rhetoric via govt funded and supported agencies etc....yet in the interest of peace, even if limited, one must be willing to "look the other way" on some rather disgusting aspects of those govts inreguard to what they teach, the problem with that, is that it prepares the ground for a new war..so ignoring moral values has long term price to pay.

[azurnoir]

78. with all due respect

this is a ridiculous analogy and I'll give you a better one

what if the US took that view in WWII..and stopped after normanday which didnt go very well for the first month....lots and lots of american dead...so too with the island hopping...guadacanal..... or for that matter the American independence....lots of american dead in the beginning... principles matter and morals, values and intent are what keep civilizations intact..counting the dead and wounded as a score card for right and wrong has little long term meaning....

should russia have quit in WWII after losing so many millions and let the nazis take over?...by your standards that appears to be exactly what you would have proposed.....your view reminds me chamberlins.....anything for short term peace

That does not fit because in the case of Normandy the D-Day invasion was not the lone act to win the war it was part of a coordinated effort- there were allied forces also coming up the Italian peninsula and ostensibly allied forces the Soviets coming from the east, oh and the favorite right wing analogy Chamberlin ya with that I read a great number of those Chamberlin comments on RW blogs prior to and in the early days of our oh so successful and necessary war with Iraq, both of which that war is not, are you trying to merely be insulting or is it an attempt to equate Hamas or Palestinians in general with the Wehrmacht? Oh and Russia well that analogy is truly puzzling because the Germans invaded and occupied Russia just as Israel invaded and still occupies the West Bank albeit the similarity ends there Israel has not killed millions of Palestinians intentionally wiping out entire towns as the Germans did Russia, are you sure you want to pursue that? So no the Russians resisted the Germans and in the end won and the cost to Germany hundreds of thousands of German soldiers simply disappeared obviously it was not worth it for Germany.

Oh and the better analogy at the end of the war Patton seeing the danger the Soviets posed pushed for the Allied forces or at least America to "keep going" as it were and push the Soviets back to Russia Truman refused, we know the rest Chamberlinesqe or not?

The IDF attacks and knocks off some manufacturing plants....had there been a Palestinian there, would you declare that it was still the proper response or not? and more rockets were now fired....

You give a hypothetical situation at least s far as I know right now but that depends on what your talking about the militants who make the missiles or an innocent family or had the misfortune of living a few thousand meters from the factory, albeit I have seen the latter dismissed as mere collateral, frankly I do not dismiss death on either side as collateral neither is right and if I had my way Hamas or IJ would limit their attacks to IDF.

As I write this I sense a possible trap also as my comment could construed or spun as equating Israel with the Nazi's that was not my intent nor I did not bring this subject into the discussion, you did but the German invasion of Russia is so obvious that I must question the intent as to why you chose this particular analogy considering how many other invasions there have been both before and after that did not involve Nazi's or was that your purpose to make a comment I dare not answer? If that is the case spin away or hit alert either way it is planned hyperbole something I would have thought you would not do.

[pelsar]

80. the analogy is not about nazis etc...

its about counting deaths and making policy based on numbers killed rather than the moral basis for the fighting.

By equating Palestinians killed by the IDF vs the numbers killed by the various jihadnikim your willfulling ignoring the environment and saying only the numbers count not the circumstances your ignoring the reasons......and what it does to those involved:

my son will soon be in the IDF...i would be shocked if he comes home one day and proudly state that he successfully killed a Palestenian family with his rocket launcher...i will see myself as a failed parent and a society that is failing as well.

we know from multiple news reports that successful attacks on israeli civilians is a reason for pride on the side of the official Palestinian govt and families
___

that difference between the two societies is also the difference between right and wrong...using my western democratic compass....and its that which should guide policy and the understanding of right and wrong......not numbers of deaths (the ends does not justify the means.....the "means" is crucial for a moral society)

they're may be a lot of gray in the means used, but there is no "gray" in the targeting of civilians vs the targeting of only fighters..one is wrong and the other isnt.

_______

an update and the question stands:
The IDF attacks and knocks off some manufacturing plants....had there been a Palestinian there, would you declare that it was still the proper response or not? and more rockets were now fired....

You give a hypothetical situation at least s far as I know right now but that depends on what your talking about the militants who make the missiles or an innocent family or had the misfortune of living a few thousand meters from the factory,

a Palestinian died near the factory when the balcony above him crashed down on him as a result of the missile strike.....dont know if was part of the factory or not i get the impression that officially he was not....was the IDF's response proper now that a Palestinian was killed in it?

[azurnoir]

82. Thank you for the

comment about Nazi's admittedly I was covering arse or trying to circumvent any problem anyone reading the comment might have perhaps I should have put "disclaimer" in big red letters before that part.

my son will soon be in the IDF...i would be shocked if he comes home one day and proudly state that he successfully killed a Palestinian family with his rocket launcher...i will see myself as a failed parent and a society that is failing as well.

I wish your son luck especially with the "cease fire" ending today, and no I would not think he would boast of killing a family in Gaza, I would attribute that kind of stuff more to American forces in Iraq were that has actually happened, but then Israel is not pandering convicted felons for service in IDF

a Palestinian died near the factory when the balcony above him crashed down on him as a result of the missile strike.....dont know if was part of the factory or not i get the impression that officially he was not....was the IDF's response proper now that a Palestinian was killed in it?

Honestly I o not know, can't say he was targeted but I can not dismiss any death as collateral either.

[pelsar]

83. a footnote..

since you watch the dates and the "time lines" of my posts...my son has informed that he is pushing off his army service for a year and will be volunteering for national service, with his youth group for a year before he starts his service (it doesnt shorten his army service which is 3 years)...hes the kind of kid that makes his parent proud, you kind of figure you did something right...and yes he argues with me, for some reason he also doesnt understand that i am always right....

[azurnoir]

86. I thought nationl service could replace military service

and well {i].hes the kind of kid that makes his parent proud, you kind of figure you did something right...and yes he argues with me, for some reason he also doesnt understand that i am always right....

I know the feeling about being proug, and there is something wrong if a kid does not disagree or even talk back once in a while it's part od growing up, means you taught him to think for himself.

[Dick Dastardly]

84. Irregardless of how we feel about the Iraq war, This is a disgusting comment that is an insult to US...

Service men and women

I wish your son luck especially with the "cease fire" ending today, and no I would not think he would boast of killing a family in Gaza, I would attribute that kind of stuff more to American forces in Iraq were that has actually happened, but then Israel is not pandering convicted felons for service in IDF

I know quite a few people who are and have been in the military and served in Iraq. They are all highly competent, conscientious and professional soldiers who in no way rejoice when they kill someone let alone an innocent. Nor are any felons or potential felons who were given a choice. My one friend lost a leg in an IED attack but bears absolutely no ill will to the Iraqi people and speaks affectionately of many he met and helped. While I don't agree with the Iraq war that doesn't mean I am going to make insulting generalizations about the 99.9% of our soldiers who are highly competent, conscientious and professional do to the actions of a very few miscreants. All militaries have miscreants in them but ours is better at weeding them out and keeping a level of professionalism better than just about any other military

[azurnoir]

85. I have relatives that have served in Iraq

including one that is about to be "stop-lossed", I did not say all soldiers serving in Iraq but it has been known for some time that the government is taking convicted felons for service in Iraq and multiple atrocities have taken place.

[Dick Dastardly]

87. The amount is a minuscule fraction of total recruits and many were juveniles when it occurred

Its not like they just let any criminal in. They do a in depth review and look at the circumstances.

As far as the atrocities that have allegedly occurred and factually occurred they are still very few in number compared to what would and has occurred with most militaries, especially of our size and scale. There is also no correlation to felons and atrocities allegedly or factually committed as you seem to insinuate. I have at least not read anything about atrocities due to felons, maybe you have and can post it.





Data released by a congressional committee shows the number of soldiers admitted to the Army with felony records jumped from 249 in 2006 to 511 in 2007. And the number of Marines with felonies rose from 208 to 350.


Those numbers represent a fraction of the more than 180,000 recruits brought in by the active duty Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines during the fiscal year ending Sept. 30, 2007. But they highlight a trend that has raised concerns both within the military and on Capitol Hill.

The bulk of the crimes involved were burglaries, other thefts, and drug offenses, but nine involved sex crimes and six involved manslaughter or vehicular homicide convictions. Several dozen Army and Marine recruits had aggravated assault or robbery convictions, including incidents involving weapons.


clip

The services use a waiver process to let in recruits with felony convictions, and many of the crimes were committed when the service members were juveniles.

For example, in several of the Marine sex crime cases, the offender was a teenager involved in consensual sex with another underage teen. In one Army case, a 13-year-old who threw a match into his school locker was charged with arson and had to receive a felony waiver six years later.

"Waivers are used judiciously and granted only after a thorough review," said Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Worthington.


clip
Waivers must be approved by an officer who is ranked as a brigadier general or above, and recruits must have written recommendations and endorsements from community leaders showing they would be a good bet for the military.




http://news.aol.com/story/_a/more-convicted-felons-allowed-to-enlist/20080421173209990001

[azurnoir]

88. I did not say any criminal

and the numbers you state are sufficient for problems, my comment in the first place was a comparison between the IDF and American military and well not to be nasty but in IDF the average "grunt" if will (yes I know Marine Corps term) comes from a broader socio-economic spectrum than their American counterparts with the exception of ROTC and Military School grads who start out as officers and are relatively few in number.

[pelsar]

77. you asked... persistent, sometimes when i'm starting to understand

but i have a much clearer understanding of you view point now...i disagree with it on so many points...and given time you will "see the light" and realize just how wrong you've been all these years and become a "pelsarite" .......one of my many many followers for i'm starting a cult, I think it pays better.... (actually i dont have any followers yet, for reasons that are not clear to me, but i'm working on it...)

[azurnoir]

79. In my case that would be reconvert

really I was a Pelsarite most of my adult life, although conversion is not proper term metamorphosis, conversion denotes something immeadiate the other is a slower process that actually is still taking place.
To a degree my views have not changed that much just which sides eyes I see them through.

On the Pelsarites robes or prayer shawl's the latter being cheaper and easier to maintain and what color?

[LeftishBrit]

11. This is awful

And who is to blame? Everyone.

Israel, because as long as they have jurisdiction over Gaza they also have responsibility. The argument that they need to blockade Gaza to protect themselves would work if there were indeed two separate states. Then, either or both states can be as isolationist as they choose, and build a wall that would make the Berlin Wall look like a garden fence, if they want to. Or preferaby they could decide to live peacefully together - but it's up to them. But until then, Israel has jurisdiction and therefore responsibility.

Egypt, because they could help and do nothing most of the time, which makes them hypocrites when they spout off about Israel.

And the Palestinian leadership, because they are just crap as leaders and are mostly more interested in fighting Israel and fighting each other than in actually looking after their people.

At any rate, it's a human disaster, and I hope very much that there are soon serious negotiations for the peaceful two-state solution that might end this.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Let's build another monument to tolerance to mark this achievement! nt

[shira]

17. tolerance beats the hell out of hate

[ProgressiveMuslim]

41. Israeli tolerance looks a lot like hate in the OTs.

You're funny, Shira!

[Vegasaurus]

19. No one is starving or eating grassn in GAZA

Contrary to the conditions elsewhere in the world where this really is happening.

In the "ghetto of Gaza", chubby children ride on camels and ferris wheels, and the aid comes pouring in, from all over the world.

So many people of the world would love to live in Gaza's "ghetto", which looks like paradise compared to Darfur or Rwanda or Chad or many other places where they really are starving (and no one seems to care, because it really is all about villainizing Jews).

[Alamuti Lotus]

29. is Mohammed Saeed as-Sahhaf writing the script here?

I recognize that "look for the bright side of anything, even if it stands reality on its head" style of writing anywhere! That guy almost made the aggression into Iraq worthwhile, it's fantastic that he's found work somewhere else......even if it is for such a disreputable cause.

[shaayecanaan]

31. No...

its just a poster who likes to stay "on message", as politicians are wont to say.

Im pretty sure she's got a hotkey set up so she doesnt have to keep typing the same two sentences.

[Alamuti Lotus]

32. I have begun to suspect a reply-generator script being employed

some kind of auto-reply bot set to release the current talking points at set time periods...

[Violet_Crumble]

93. I think it's been created by the people who brought us this one...

http://www.fridgemagnet.org.uk/toys/bushconference/

Try it. It's fun!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. Chubby children ride on ferris wheels? Are you insane?

Utterly without human compassion? A propaganda machine?

God help you.

[Vegasaurus]

48. Do these children look starving?

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&langpair=ar|en&u=http://www.paltoday.com/arabic/News-30132.html&tbb=1

on edit I am not sure the link works, but Shira posted it on the other thread.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

52. God forbid your children or grandchildren should ever have to subsist

in the conditions in which Gazans are living.

I wouldn't wish that even on the likes of you.

[Vegasaurus]

53. My relatives survived pogroms and concentration camps

(the ones that weren't murdered).

They were truly starved, and they looked (the ones who survived) a lot different from those happy children on ferris wheels.

Like human skeletons; you've seen the pictures.

The situation in Gaza isn't a pleasant one, but it can't be compared to what many people have had to endure, or are currently enduring in many parts of the world.

Also, the Gazans voted for terrorists, and continue to support them, so they have to wonder why their lives are so miserable.

Jews never had these choices; they were made unilaterally by the Nazis and every other anti-semitic group.

Similarly those in sub Saharan Africa and elsewhere, currently living in exponentially more misery than the Gazans, did not bring that misery on themselves, as it was imposed from the outside.

I do hope that the Gazans' lives will improve, but I am doubtful, with Hamas in charge.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

57. Fatcat Americans know shit about the misery index.

Regardless of what happened to your predecessors.

So easy to write it in a neat sentence, but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

What the Israelis have subjected Gazans to is farther on the continuum of human suffering than it ought to be. Shame on you and all who defend it, especially in light of what your family suffered.

Humanity hasn't come too far, has it?

[Vegasaurus]

58. There is a difference

which is that pogrom and concentration camp Jews did nothing whatsoever to bring on their human suffering, and subsequent near obliteration.

They did not strap bombs on their children, or reward terrorists with candy and money and public recognition.

They did not vote for a government sworn to the annihilation of another nation.

They did not smuggle in weapons, use aid money to buy bomb building materials, or try to blow up the individuals proving their own aid and fuel.

Until the Palestinians realize that their misery is in good part their own fault, because of 100 years of ongoing terrorism and violence against Jews, they will never improve their lives, or have any sort of peace.

Israel has "subjected" Gazans to misery, because Gazans refuse to give up terrorism.

You know that, because you know that every time they stop their violence, life for them improves.

Unfortunately, they always screw it up again by breaking cease fires, starting Intifadas, bombing crossings.

Time for you to really look at why your people are suffering, and why they need to accept some responsibility for their own actions and resulting misery.

We expect that much from children.

We surely can expect it from a nation of intelligent people.

[Violet_Crumble]

91. Next time anyone tries to claim no pro-Israelis label Gazans as terrorists....

Here's Veggie's post to prove them wrong:

"Israel has "subjected" Gazans to misery, because Gazans refuse to give up terrorism."

In an incredibly ugly and ignorant post, that comment stood out. There's nothing the slightest bit left-wing or progressive about saying crap like that about any civilian population. It's what I disliked so much about conservatives when they spewed their crap about Iraqi civilians. How is this any different?

Oh, yeah, Veggie. Yr the only one who tried to draw comparisons to the Holocaust, so quit pretending anyone else is doing it. It's a particularly stupid argument as it leads anyone reading it to the conclusion that unless people have suffered as much as victims of the Holocaust did, then their suffering's not important or worth considering. Why isn't it possible for you to make an attempt to be emphatic towards Palestinian civilians instead of making such ugly comments about them on what is a regular basis?

[excess_3]

44. impossible to know what is real

food shortages
electrical blackouts.

staged, or not?

who knows

[ProgressiveMuslim]

47. Israel's ban of international press doesn't exactly help accurate reporting, does it?

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/1126/p06s01-wogn.html

There have been trusted international resources reporting the situation in Gaza, including the BBC.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7766509.stm

If you can truly look at this situation and say that you don't know what's real, then the Israeli propaganda machine has truly done its job.

[pelsar]

50. come on...a little truth wouldnt hurt...

didnt hamas kick out the israeli reporter who entered via boat last week (amira....nice report in haaretz about gaza).

obviously its not hard to get in....just have to take a boat ride....or enter via the tunnels.....seems those reporters arent really trying that hard to get in, either that or they just dont make journalists like they used to......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

51. I'm all in favor of a big dose of truth. Too bad your gov't has a different view. nt

[Vegasaurus]

81. There is no starvation, and no grass eating

It's all anti-Israel propoganda.


There are many more cars on the road than there were a few months ago, thanks to the diesel smuggled in through the tunnels from Egypt.

The market in Palestine Square appears as crowded as ever. Stalls display beguiling heaps of home-grown oranges, strawberries and guava.

Starving people do not have heaps of lovely fresh fruit or new cars on the road.


news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7790255.stm

[Violet_Crumble]

92. Sure, just like there's no rockets fired at Israel and no PTSD sufferers...

And there's no families going hungry in countries like my own coz like things are good for those of us who are employed and next time the Salvos rattle a collection can at me I'll tell them I'm using the Veggie-index and because I can see happy and well-fed families around me, that means there's no hunger and no poverty and it's all anti-Australian propaganda (of course I'll spell the word propaganda right in my head as I chide the old and by now rather bemused Salvos guy). And then I'll run off and join the local branch of the Young Liberals where the Veggie-index will receive a warm welcome and be used to prove it's very anti-Australian propaganda to point out that workers suffered under WorkChoices as government workers and politicians kept on getting payrises and better conditions, So There!!!

Ah, for the blissfulness of not having to think that having such strong powers of denial must bring!

[azurnoir]

95. Wonder if she thinks the same of her own country?

Which is my country too, or if there are homeless and hungry here it's because tey're lazy shiftless you know the rest who should just go out and get a job..........

Whats worse is the situation can be explained in reasonable terms on one thread and the commenter simply moves to another and expels the same gas, so to speak I have to wonder if there is an "intellectual diet" of White Castle burgers going on here.

[shira]

96. so food is getting into Gaza

and the gov't is not responsible for feeding its hungry?

Or do the refugees not count as citizens of Gaza? Everywhere else in the world, as you have noted, where there are hungry people - the gov't is responsible when it is fully capable of feeding its people. Except for Gaza, right?

[azurnoir]

97. I said there were homeless and hungry in the US

I said nothing of the the US government, but going by your script then doing something about the famine in Darfur is the responsibility is the sole responsibility of the Sudanese government and those other aid agencies should just butt the heck out?

[shira]

98. it's the responsibility of govt's who are capable of feeding them

those govts incapable are another story. Since Hamas is capable of feeding its people just as Israel or the US, why should they escape that responsibility?

[azurnoir]

99. Now your claim is that Hamas is just as capable as the US

and Israel in feeding it's hungry have I got that right? Where Israel is concerned they're not doing to good a job at that

JERUSALEM, Oct. 22 (Xinhua) -- Israel has the highest poverty level in the western world, with one in four Israelis below the poverty line, local daily The Jerusalem Post reported Wednesday on its website, citing an Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) report.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-10/22/content_10...

Jerusalem----October 12......As Israel enters into Yom Kippur one fact remains unchanged. One Israel child out of three is poor, a poverty report reveals. Every third child in Israel lives below the poverty line, according to an annual National Insurance Institute (NII) poverty report released recently.

Over 400,000 families in Israel suffer from "nutritional insecurity," a euphemistic term for "hunger." 28% of Israeli citizens, or 1,600,000 people are living in poverty. Among them are more than 600,000 hungry children. Those experiencing "nutritional insecurity" eat smaller portions, skip meals and, in extreme cases, don't eat for a whole day. Diets may be high in carbohydrates and lacking or almost devoid of meat, dairy products, vegetables and fruit. In Israel, 22% of families are deemed moderately insecure and 8% suffer from severe insecurity.

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/israelpovertychildrenyo.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=224700#

The Us is really no better having worked for years to remove or privatize any safety nets

BTW which country or area has the higher per capita income or GDP Israel or Gaza?

[Violet_Crumble]

101. Economic crisis? What economic crisis? I've seen pics of Americans with jobs!!

So using the Veggie-index and a hastily gathered photo of a US friend who isn't suffering yet from the economic crisis, that translates as it all being lies that Americans are losing their jobs and homes!

Goddam, that sort of 'logic' is so much a staple of right-wing political 'thought'...

[Vegasaurus]

103. We aren't talking about your country (or mine)

We are talking about the propaganda mill in Gaza.

There may very well be starving kids.

But you can blame Hamas, the government of Gaza, for caring not at all about their starving kids, because it is more important to break the ceasefire and shoot rockets, promote terrorism and mayhem, than to ever try to improve lives for their citizens.

Recognition of Israel and renouncing terrorism would make an immediate improvement in the life of their citizens.

But instead they ramp up terrorism, which makes the life of their citizens more miserable, every time.

It's a stupid tactic, and it hasn't worked for them.

But they continue to try it again and again.

What's that they say about the definition of insanity?

[azurnoir]

104. What has been pointed out to you is that neither America

or Israel feeds it's children either so why is it that you have a higher standard for Gaza?

Your analysis of Gaza seems almost like telling a rape victim she might as well stop fighting, lie down. and and close her eyes cause that way she's less likely to get hurt and well its going to happen anyway.

[shira]

105. wrong again

Israel and the USA don't tend to feed their most starving, impoverished people and that's a blight on both societies.

It's also a blight on the govt of Gaza (Hamas) when they are using their resources, just like other societies, to buy things that cannot be eaten.

Hamas is responsible for UN food not getting through Israel's border. They stop attacking, aid gets through. It's amazing that I've never seen you once blame Hamas for the current situation. Do they at least share equal blame with Israel in your opinion? Let me also ask you, do you REALLY think Hamas cares for its citizens, or do you agree with me that they are evil bastards who mainly see their citizens as useful pawns, and who love the PR they get when their intransigence results in Israel being demonized?

Hamas is responsible, just like any other govt in the world, to use its resources to solve its own poverty issues. And their actions have real effects on their own civilians, just like any other govt.

[azurnoir]

106. LOL "wrong again"? IOW you got caught?

whenever you start with an insulting title line it means you really have not much to say or your about to change the goal posts. So it is a blight on the government of Gaza that they buy things that can not be eaten? Like fuel for electricity? The only double standard here is your own and it is obvious from both posts.

[shira]

107. lol....yes, Hamas cannot be held accountable for anything they do

I asked you whether you believe at the very least that Hamas bears equal blame with Israel for the UN aid not getting through. I've never seen you condemn Hamas for their actions that result in border closure. So what is your answer?

I asked because there are 2 ways to look at this as win-win for Hamas.

Either the current situation remains, things get worse for Palestinians, Israel suffers in the PR dept, and Hamas wins by not giving a damn and getting to fire their rockets indiscriminately............or, Israel just allows UN aid through, gets hit by rockets (wins some PR points) but Hamas ALSO wins by learning they can get away with anything and that there shouldn't be any consequences for their actions.

[azurnoir]

108. you asked no such thing

you tried your usual tired distraction. Why is Hamas as capable as Israel of caring for it's hungry. A win-win for Hamas well if you say so, people having sympathy for civilians in Gaza is a win for Hamas?
Besides were you not the running around posting pictures of kids in Gaza claiming them as proof positive that there was no hunger there, so you admit you were wrong apparently.

[Behind the Aegis]

109. Yes she did ask you.

"Hamas is responsible for UN food not getting through Israel's border. They stop attacking, aid gets through. It's amazing that I've never seen you once blame Hamas for the current situation. Do they at least share equal blame with Israel in your opinion? #105

[azurnoir]

111. IMO no Hamas does not share equal blame with Israel

Hamas does not have nearly the funding from both private and non-private sources that Israel does, why is no one questioning how Israel spends it's money?

So do you agree with such ludicrous assertions as this one-

Who cares if Hamas is AS capable as Israel or the USA? That they ARE capable of using their resources for food instead of weapons and widescreen TVs is the point.

btw she forgot motorcycles and viagra. Not to mention her recent claims of there being no hunger in Gaza.

And see she answers her own question and asserts then some ridiculous points as I said earlier Hamas also uses funds for other purposes besides the items enumerated like infrastructure, but that does not count as long as Hamas is the only villian here well except for when its Egypt that is.

[shira]

112. here we go again

1. You haven't assigned ANY blame to Hamas, forget equal blame. Your argument about me making Hamas/Egypt the "only" villains is a strawman.

2. Forget Hamas being capable, what of their responsibility to not shoot rockets so that the people get aid? Hamas bears zero responsibility for the rockets and the following response to stop aid? Is that right?

3. As to capability in feeding their own people, Israel and America should be ashamed they are not doing more to feed the hungry. Shouldn't the same apply to Hamas? It's not like they have no way of doing it themselves.

I'll make a prediction. You'll answer nothing directly.

[azurnoir]

113. I can not directly answer false assertions

and just because they end in a question mark does not make them questions

this is a question

What responsibility does Israel havein the current aid crisis in Gaza's refugee camps?

[shira]

114. you first

i've asked many direct questions....you answer me first, i'll answer you. fair enough?

Is Hamas to blame in ANY way for this situation? If so, be specific. Why blame them at all?

[azurnoir]

115. Just as I thought you can not answer

but yes Hamas is in part responsible for the situation, they refused to continue the cease fire and have not been positively responsive to either Israel or Egypt.

[shira]

116. you answered!

To answer you first, yes, Israel is always responsible for its actions/inactions. Palestinian suffering is directly attributable in many ways - including now - to Israel.

Of course I believe Israel's responsibility differs according to the situation. Suppose Israel stopped aid if Hamas/PA were not fighting at all, or were really trying to stop hostilities aimed at Israel. In THAT case Israel becomes THE villain and therefore 100% responsible. But that's not the case and we both know it. Their actions, like any other country under similar circumstances, are at least understandable - even if we disagree.

Put simply, what you see as "evil" or intentionally hostile Israel policy towards Palestinians is in my opinion, the best Israel can do under the circumstances - and I'll put their record under warlike conditions up against any other country in the world and challenge you to prove Israel acts worse than any other country.

That doesn't mean their best is good enough; it can be better - and Israel has shown by example that they are willing to listen to and react to criticism by changing tactics and responding as morally and ethically as possible.

I give Israel the benefit of the doubt for doing what it thinks are the only responsible options available to them - as in, "they mean well and what else can they do". To this question, what else can they do - you and yours have no practical solutions, ever. It's just hostile condemnation and hate you call "criticism". You assign ridiculous, ulterior motives to their actions - as if there's NO reason whatsoever for their actions/inactions and that they can't wait to make life more miserable for Palestinians, ie, it's just a matter of time before they call for a 'Final Solution'.

=============================

As to your answer, Hamas refusing to continue the ceasefire - that's just something within the past 2 days and has nothing to do with the current "starvation" crisis. Going back one week ago today, what was Hamas' responsiblity and portion of blame for the "starvation"? Any at all? Please answer specifically.

[shira]

110. please answer the question from post #105

Why is Hamas as capable as Israel of caring for it's hungry. A win-win for Hamas well if you say so, people having sympathy for civilians in Gaza is a win for Hamas?

Who cares if Hamas is AS capable as Israel or the USA? That they ARE capable of using their resources for food instead of weapons and widescreen TVs is the point.

As to win-win, YES, it is a win if Israel were to allow Hamas to keep the rockets going with absolutely no repurcussions whatsoever. Hamas then knows (if they don't already) that they can do anything they want. Israel will send aid whether or not the rockets fly. Sure, Israel gains a few PR points for showing restraint and sympathy - but at what cost?

Can you admit - and please answer - that Hamas shows by its actions that they really and truly do not care for their own civilians, and that they use them merely as pawns in an ongoing war with Israel - and that the reason Egypt is hostile at Israel for the way they treat Palestinians is the same reason? To use Palestinians as pawns? Egypt supposedly cares but doesn't lift a finger to allow UN trucks through and solve the alleged problem?

Besides were you not the running around posting pictures of kids in Gaza claiming them as proof positive that there was no hunger there, so you admit you were wrong apparently.

No, I'm debating only against your tired argument that Hamas isn't responsible for anything, neither is Egypt, etc. You believe there is a starvation problem. Therefore, YOU should believe it is imperative for Hamas and Egypt to act responsibly. Otherwise, you must be expecting Israel to be MORE responsible and care more for Gaza civilians than Hamas or Egypt. Is that what you expect from Israel? Since Hamas cannot be expected to act responsibly (maybe because they're too dumb or you have zero expectations of them and therefore they're off the hook), Israel must wipe their asses for them, do the job Hamas and Egypt should be doing, and feed Gazans?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

117. Don't forget to add...

the comparison to times when it was better when the victim endured the rape passively, then when she had her face punched in repeatedly.

Good analogy.

[Vegasaurus]

118. How ridiculous

Hamas is asking for it.

How easy it would be for the violence to stop.

However, they will have to decide that terrorism isn't their most important business.

Do I think the militants get what they deserve?

Hell yes.

I think Israel should respond even more strongly.

[Shaktimaan]

119. Are you actually comparing Hamas' situation

to that of a helpless woman being raped?

I honestly don't see the analogy. I mean, Hamas has repeatedly said that they refuse to consider a peace treaty with Israel, and they refuse to stop attacking Israeli civilians in any possible function. Their sole offer thus far has been to essentially issue terms of surrender that they'd accept from Israel, offering only a temporary halt to the fighting in return.

It seems like Hamas is kind of raping the Palestinians, but I don't think that's what you mean.

[Vegasaurus]

120. I would agree completely

that Hamas, as the agressor, is the rapist, in the above analogy, and the victims are the innocent Palestinians, who do not support terrorism and violence (a minority, but they still exist).

[azurnoir]

121. Who said the women was helpless?

the women is being told to act helpless would you suggest nonviolent protest? I would.