Israel expels UN rights envoy who compared Israelis to Nazis

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Professor Richard Falk, a United Nations envoy who once sparked controversy by comparing Israelis to Nazis, has been barred entry to Israel and was put on a plane bound out of the country early on Monday.

In March, the Geneva-based UN Human Rights Council appointed Falk, a Jewish American and professor emeritus at Princeton University, to a six-year term monitoring the human rights situation as UN Special Rapporteur in the Palestinian territories.

Israel's Foreign Ministry said in September that it would not allow Falk to enter the country, after the BBC quoted Falk as defending statements he made last year equating Israel's treatment of Palestinians with Nazi treatment of Jews during the Holocaust. Falk told BBC that Israel had been unfairly shielded from international criticism.

Israel has also complained that Falk's mandate as an investigator was confined to human rights violations by Israel toward Palestinians and did not encompass violations by Palestinians toward Israelis.

Falk had been scheduled to hold meetings in Ramallah in the coming days with representatives of many human rights organizations.

The Adalah rights organization Monday sent an urgent letter to Interior Minister Meir Shitreet and Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, demanding that they lift the ban on Falk, which it called "a severe blow to the rights of the Palestinian civilian population living under Israeli occupation, a population which must be afforded protection by the occupier under international humanitarian law.

The letter said it was "Israel's obligation as a member of the UN and a signatory to various international human rights conventions to respect the work of UN representatives, to enable their human rights missions and to assist them in fulfilling their responsibilities without fear of repercussions."

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[Kurska]

1. His voice will be missed from the peaceful and rational dialog such a figure would inspire

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kurska]

6. Israel isn't a repressive government, certainly not anymore so then either the PA or Hama's fiefdom

In the realm of GLBT Rights, Free speech, political freedoms and women's rights, israel is probably the most progressive nation in the entire middle east.

[sui generis]

7. yes and wrong

the military doesn't discard people for being gay, but Jerusalem's mayor shut down the gay pride parade this year.

color me cynical.

[Kurska]

11. Israel recognizes gay marriage performed abroad and affords full equal rights to gays

It's not just the military, jerusalem is more of a mixed bag then say tel aviv and let me tell you tel aviv is the most open and accepting city you'll find in the entire middle east.

[sui generis]

27. sabra?

actually I agree with you - just like Ft. Worth and Dallas are a mixed bag. Dallas is dark blue, but that doesn't speak for Texas, which is dark red, and Dallas is the most blue city in the whole southwest. :P

Anyway, without pissing more people off - everyone needs to be a little less knee-jerk.

I am cynical - I'll own that. Nobody wails and beats their breasts more than someone who has an agenda for directing one's outrage, especially if this is the weekly "we're more persecuted than you" Israel story.

If someone told me as a gay man that I was more like a homophobe, I'd want to know why they had that impression and work to correct it, right or wrong. But no, we must assume the crash position on matters of the middle east. That's what I mean by cynical. Maybe tired of it is a better description.

[azurnoir]

3. Generally such a move is reserved only for an enemy entity

Has Israel or its government decided that the UN is the enemy? First Israel blocks aid from the UN, boycotts the UN racism conference with Bush approval of course for, then it blocks a UN envoy what should be next? All we hear on this forum is how bigoted the UN is against Israel, if this is indeed true then wouldn't Israel "boycott" the UN itself if the UN is so bigoted why does Israel remain a member? By remaining a member Israel or its governmenbt gives the appearance of simply making unfounded complaints.

[aranthus]

36. It's more complicated than that

I have made this argument before, but here goes again. The UN exists for purposes other than spewing propaganda. It is a forum for governments. It is a place for ambassadors to meet. There are many reasons for Israel to remain part of the UN.

None of that changes the fact that the Human Rights Council and many of the UN's political structures are dominated, if not outright controlled, by governments hostile to Israel. It's inaccurate to say that the UN is biased or bigoted against Israel because the UN isn't about fairness, deliberation, truth or morality in the first place. It's about politics. Are the majority of the members of the Human Rights Council hostile to Israel? Of course. They're hostile to human rights as well, which is why the Council should be abolished (don't worry, it won't be).

[Vegasaurus]

39. Agree completely

The Council should be disbanded.

If they really cared about human rights at all, there would be action towards the countries perpetrating horrific abuse.

Instead those countries are given a pass and the hostility is directed at Israel.

[azurnoir]

42. But it is not just the UNHRC that has conemned Israel

the general assembly has on a number of occasions also, I am told too that Israel is the only country in the UN not allowed to serve on the UNSC, so why does Israel bother?

[aranthus]

73. Being a member of the UN is a badge of sovereignty

Israel may not be liked by other members of the club, but they can still say that they are a member. There's much more to the UN than its empty moral pronouncements. I'm not sure if there is more to your question than you are saying. Are you trying to suggest that Israel's continuing membership validates UN criticism of Israel? It doesn't.

To be clear, I'm not one of those who believe that Israel is above criticism. I just think that the UN doesn't add anything to a discussion of international right and wrong.

[Dhalgren]

4. The Professor made an analogy. That's all.

And there can be many valid analogies made between Nazi Germany and Israel. As long as the Israelis get a free pass from the rest of the world for their apartheid against the Palestinians, there will never be peace. The Zionists want the Palestinians to cease to exist as an independent people - sounds kind of like Amadenijad...

[Kurska]

5. No there isn't any valid analogies between a conflict that has cost thousands of lives on both sides

And the wiping out of 66% of european Jewry. You can't equate a sectarian conflict where both sides do terrible things to the attempted rounding up and execution of a entire peoples.

The analogy is crap and while I'm sure this pillar of mediator neutrality would have been the absolute breakthrough needed in the I/P Conflict, israel doesn't have to let him into their country.

[sui generis]

8. you're confused

The Nazi government didn't start out as full fledged murdering killers. It was a nationalist movement that leveraged hunger, and xenophobia by guiding people to a common "enemy", the Jews.

Also, politically speaking only Jews were allowed to lend money all through the early 20th century, making everyone who held the note to your property or business Jewish, which was just more fuel for that bonfire.

Israel needs to fucking grow up; make that, everyone needs to grow up. The knee jerk outrage makes them look every bit as idiotic as someone claiming that the STATE of Israel is like the political party of the Nazis.

[Kurska]

10. What are you talking about?

"Also, politically speaking only Jews were allowed to lend money all through the early 20th century, making everyone who held the note to your property or business Jewish, which was just more fuel for that bonfire."

What the hell are you talking about? The domination of jews in all parts of banking sectors ended with the merchants of venice.

You are the one who sounds confused, why don't you grow up and education yourself on the situation before slinging insults.

[sui generis]

24. not slinging insults

why are you insulted?

god people, wake up. I grew up in Germany in a half jewish family, grandfather in Dachau, twice, and 14 year old uncle who died there. Educate yourself.

I am not your enemy, but if you need one, let's all please understand your facts and REALITY. My family could do a PBS documentary, but those aren't details for consumption in the bloviasphere.

[Vegasaurus]

13. Time to read a little history

Making things up doesn't advance an argument.

[sui generis]

22. dur.

Where did you grow up? Not where I did.

[Kurska]

32. I grew up In orlando, a community with a sizeable jewish population

Your statement that jews were the only ones in the WORLD responsible for banking all the way to the 1900's is the single stupidest thing I have ever read on this forum.

[sui generis]

41. now you're putting words in my mouth

generally held that - I didn't say that was my personal belief. Jesus Christ(!), we don't agree. I hope you agree with that.

[sui generis]

46. and another thing young'un

stick around several thousand more posts. Reading IS fundamental. Now run along dearie.

[azurnoir]

14. I will be nice about this

"The Nazi government didn't start out as full fledged murdering killers. It was a nationalist movement that leveraged hunger, and xenophobia by guiding people to a common "enemy", the Jews.

It is a contradictory statement the Nazis gained power on the principle that "nothing unites faster than a common enemy" they started out with a state sanctioned enemy it is part Mein Kampf, just by what methodology to once and for all "deal with the problem", the details if you will the how to of the "final solution" did not appear till later, but murder was the intent all along.

Also, politically speaking only Jews were allowed to lend money all through the early 20th century, making everyone who held the note to your property or business Jewish, which was just more fuel for that bonfire.

This was true only of the dealings Jews had with Gentiles which was limited to money lending which could take a number of forms including gold and diamonds not banking as one thinks of it today, within the Jewish community Jews could hold any position not to mention that Jews could not own land so Jews held no ones note so to speak it was Gentiles who owned the notes on Jewish property and as pointed out this ended in Western Europe in the 17th century I believe, Eastern Europe is another story and I believe that these practices continued through the very late 19th century there

[Dhalgren]

16. Maybe you do not understand what an analogy is.

Also, you either did not read my post well or you are intensionally misconstruing my statement. I said that many valid analogies can be made between Nazi Germany and Israel. These are two states. They are (and were) ruled by an ethnic majority of legal citizens. They each oppress(ed) a group within their own country for various reasons. Both countries took over tracts of land that belonged to other countries and will (would) not discuss any valid return of said land. As I said, there are many valid analogies between the two countries.
You may certainly argue that the "Holocaust" was a much worse phenomenon than the current Israeli apartheid against the Palestinians, but I don't like atrocity oneupmanship.

Let us agree that the murder, the imprisonment, the oppression, and the ghettoizing of any people is a horrendous crime. Surely we can agree on that.

[Vegasaurus]

28. Even using NAZI and ISRAEL in the same sentence

is a disgrace, and degrades whatever argument you may have been trying to make.

Only someone completely devoid of knowledge could make such an idiotic statement.

[sui generis]

29. says who?

just cause?

Why?

see, it's arguments like that that are counter-intelligent and brook no discussion, which is exactly why this shit continues.

Learn to talk about it. Deal. Make real assertions about right and wrong, not just some made up rule of thumb.

[oberliner]

12. The Zionists want the opposite of what you say they do

They want the Palestinians to exist as an independent people.

In fact, Livni just made a statement to that effect the other day.

[Dhalgren]

15. Talk is cheap.

Actions speak louder.

[Mosby]

18. Like this?

Israel frees 224 Palestinians to bolster moderates
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x227574

[Dhalgren]

19. PR moves to "appear" more moderate?

Look to Gaza. Look to the West Bank walls. Look to the expansion of the "settlements".
Lipstick on a pig, someone once said...

[Mosby]

25. Could you be less obvious with the "look over there" tactic?

You stated that actions speak louder than words. I provided a link that clearly demonstrates that the GOI, through their ACTIONS, are actively seeking a resolution to the IP conflict.

[Dhalgren]

26. Good for them!

Now if they can just get the Israeli boot off the Palestinian neck...

[Jim Sagle]

9. Falk ain't nuthin' but shit and neither is anyone who agrees with him.

And what does it say for the UN that it would employ someone who utters such vicious, inplicitly exterminationist blood libel?

[Dhalgren]

17. Falk is an American Jew.

He made analogies between Israel and Nazi Germany. Israel is no "special" country. It can be criticized, it can be upbraided for wrong doing, it can be accused of crimes by anyone who feels it has committed any. This idea of Israeli "exceptionalism" is abhorrent and sickening. Since when is the criticism of a country termed "inplicitly (sic) exterminationist blood libel?"

You think that an American Jew wants to exterminate Israel? Talk about being "nothin' but shit!" :eyes:


:puke:

[Jim Sagle]

20. Excuse you? Falk's comparison was demented, plain and simple.

Your defense is lame, and your disgust at me is palpably phony.

Otherwise, a good comment.

[Dhalgren]

23. OK, I'll bite.

How was Falk's statement "demented"? Maybe I just haven't looked at it from you particular point of view. I have been making a defense based upon the validity of analogies - even if you don't like the analogy, it doesn't make it invalid. But, honestly, let me hear your reasoning, I am ready to eat crow.

[Jim Sagle]

48. Let's compare the two nations and their human rights records ourselves.

First, from Israeli Extra-Judicial Executions, an article in The Populist Party site, which quotes a report from the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights:

Total Palestinian deaths and injuries from September 29, 2000 through late January 2008 are as follows, according to PCHR:

-- 4419 Palestinians killed, including 794 children, 152 women, 25 medical personnel and 10 journalists;

-- 11,700 Palestinians injured in Gaza; and

-- 13,550 Palestinians wounded in the West Bank;

Contrast that with the an excerpt entitled Total Deaths from Nazi Genocidal Policies, from The Holocaust Chronicle site:

European Jews - 5,600,000 to 6,250,000
Soviet prisoners of war - 3,000,000
Polish Catholics - 3,000,000
Serbians - 700,000 (Croat Ustasa persecution)
Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri - 222,000 to 250,000
Germans (political, religious, and Resistance) - 80,000
Germans (handicapped) - 70,000
Homosexuals - 12,000
Jehovah’s Witnesses - 2500

There’s really no comparison. Surely, there’s no equivalence. Falk could have made a legitimate point about how Israel’s human rights record was nowhere near as good as its own idealistic image would suggest. Instead he stated an absolutely grotesque and shameful inversion of the truth.

[Dhalgren]

53. As I said before, I don't like abuse oneupmanship,

but I will grant that to you, the analogy was distasteful, it might not be distasteful or "over-the-top" to a Palestinian. There is no way to say that the atrocity perpetrated upon one people is more lamentable than the atrocity perpetrated upon another - they will never be the same, but can be analogous. The nations doing the criminal acts may also not be the same, but can be analogous. That would be if I said the Holocaust could not be compared to the genocide of Native Americans because a far, far larger percentage of NA were exterminated than were Jews by the Nazis. It would be a pointless argument, because the events are analogous, even if they are not the same.

Some analogies are valid and some are not. An analogy does not say that two things are equal or the same - an analogy says that two things are comparable, are analogous, can be discussed regarding their similarities and dissimilarities. To say that the Israelis are behaving in a way analogous to the way the Nazis behave is a valid statement. It doesn't mean that the Israelis are Nazis, it doesn't mean that the Israelis are equal to the Nazi Germans, it just means what it means. The same way that Nazis can be compared to the US government in its relation to Native Americans - not the same, not equal, but definitely analogous...

[Jim Sagle]

58. OK, they're comparable. One is invisible compared to the other.

Those who pretend otherwise are engaging in blood libel.

[Dhalgren]

59. "Blood libel" is a nonsense phrase used when the

subject is too ridiculous for logical meaning. If you become upset over an analogy because it insults one of the elements of the analogy, then that is ridiculous. You should go ahead and just say outright that Jewish lives are more important than Palestinian lives. You seem to view Palestinians as less than...well..Israelis, at any rate.

Here's an analogy for you: the Palestinian deaths and hardships under the Israelis are as lamentable as were the Jewish deaths and hardships under Nazi Germany. That is an analogy that I will stand by. And I don't care if you use that silly "blood libel" bilge.

So long...

[Jim Sagle]

60. It is a blood libel, as it is intended to tar the world's only Jewish state with the mark of an

infamous genocidal regime.

[Behind the Aegis]

65. "You seem to view Palestinians as less than..."

And you seem to view...well, Israelis as less than.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. "You think that an American Jew wants to exterminate Israel?"

He wouldn't be alone.

Neturei Karta

[sui generis]

30. do you believe that or ar you just saying something clever?

I mean, about this particular man.

We need less hot air and more rationality, a little more humanity. Can we consider that he chose a poor analogy, that others were more apt? Or do we just have to assassinate this guy because we didn't like his choice of words?

I'd be dead several thousand times over here on DU.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. I don't know what he believes.

My remark was to the ignorant posting above mine implying because he is an American Jew he would not be against the destruction of Israel. I pointed out, clearly that is not reality. So, if he believes Israel should be dismantled or destroyed, then he would not be alone.

Yes, he chose a poor analogy, but it is one the anti-Israeli propagandists and anti-Semites just love to use. I don't recall anyone seeking his assassination. But, why shouldn't he not be criticized or should he be shielded from criticism like he claims Israel is? Besides, he is representing one of the most bigoted/biased UN groups there is when it comes to Israel, the "Human Rights :eyes: Council."

[aranthus]

38. The problem is that he chose his words carefully and for effect

It isn't that he accidentally or mistakenly chose a poor analogy. He intentionally chose a hateful analogy. Falk wasn't hired to be fair, or honest. He was hired to put a plausible face on hostility to Israel, by an organization dominated by governments hostile to Israel's existence.

[Puregonzo1188]

33. Neturei Karta does not want to "exterminate" anyone. They don't believe the

state of Israel should exist, which one can debate whether or not is a valid point of view, but it is dishonest to say they seek to "exterminate" anyone.

[Behind the Aegis]

34. They would see the state of Israel exterminated.

I said nothing of them wanting people exterminated. So, before putting words in people's posts, actually read what is written.

How did you arrive at your sceen name?

[Puregonzo1188]

44. Fine, but given its connotations I really don't exterminate is the best possible word

to describe NK's position.

And my screen name is a Hunter S. Thompson reference.

[Behind the Aegis]

45. Then you can choose...

abolish, extinguish, extirpate, eradicate, obliterate, destroy, remove, banish, liquidate, or "wipe from the pages of history"

Better yet, here is their position:

We are, obviously, opposed to its very existence. In practice, we shun any participation in the state and refuse to accept its benefits, financial or other, in any form. In practice we frequently protest against the state's actions and, more importantly, its very existence. We have often joined Palestinians in protests and demonstrations. Our speakers are available to address any organizations on the subject of Zionism. We have often spoken to and visited Arab groups in America and in the Holy Land.

And thier demand:

We demand, without compromise, the peaceful dismantling of the Israeli state. As to whether or how many Jews may remain there once this process is completed, that decision is totally up to the Palestinian leaders and people.

"And my screen name is a Hunter S. Thompson reference." I get the "pure gonzo," but what about the rest?

[sui generis]

50. I suppose I could say I agree intellectually

On principle of not giving a shit WHO the chosen people are or giving a shit about yaweh, god, allah, or the pink unicorn as a justification for WHO the land belongs to.

But realistically, they ARE there, just like we ARE here in America and native Americans are STILL mostly relegated to poverty and reservations.

At some point, I am for the systematic dismantling of ALL advantages any religion justifies to oppress anyone.

But I'm also a product of America, and not for dismantling the IDEA of America, or undoing IDEA of Israel for exactly the same reason. What I WANT is for America to spend more money on social and welfare programs for native Americans, to erase the disadvantages we continue to overlook. What I WANT is for the public policy of the IDEA of Israel to be open, play nice with others, and educate.

The fact is America is warlike. Israel is warlike. Voices for peace are drowned out as easily as DU droids here are drowned out by the "fear terrorists everywhere" crowd that is currently running the country and destroying the lives of anyone who gives to a middle east charity that isn't affiliated with AIPAC.

We DON'T have to blindly support Israel. That doesn't make us the enemies of the state of Israel, no matter WHAT a few dweebs on DU claim.

[Behind the Aegis]

55. Then you are as bad as they are, you just have different reasons.

The NK are not for "the systematic dismantling of ALL advantages any religion justifies to oppress anyone." How you even arrived at such a bizarre conclusion is beyond me. If you can simply say "Israel is warlike," then you know little of the situation in that area or its history. Then again, I am not surprised especially when I see this bullshit, "the "fear terrorists everywhere" crowd that is currently running the country and destroying the lives of anyone who gives to a middle east charity that isn't affiliated with AIPAC" and your justification with the idiotic straw man at the end of your post.

[sui generis]

56. no, YOU are as bad as they are

but whatever - current humanity is worth more than historical context. And that's my final answer.

[Behind the Aegis]

57. I don't advocate the destruction of current state, like you and NK.

[sui generis]

62. read much?

I didn't advocate the destruction of the state, if your reading comprehension has come back on after short circuiting, but by gollee if you want to accuse me of being for the destruction of Israel while still claiming that Israel as a rule of thumb should never be associated with some of the segregationist and absolutist policies of the early WWII german nationalist party, then you're talking out of both sides of your ass.

When Aegis farts in your face, it's best to light a match. :nuke:

[Name removed]

63. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Puregonzo1188]

61. The rest are just random numbers. And as far as NK goes I feel like

"peaceful dismantling" carries a different connotation than exterminate and the two would generate different reactions from most people.

[Behind the Aegis]

64. Interesting "random numbers"

""peaceful dismantling" carries a different connotation than exterminate and the two would generate different reactions from most people."

That is true. One is more palatable, than the other, but the results are still the same...NO MORE ISRAEL. Is that your desire too?

[sui generis]

66. YES YES YES EVERYONE HATES ISRAEL

do you know how fucking stupid you sound? Stop putting words in everyone else's mouth and concentrate on the stream of pure horseshit coming out of yours.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

70. Self-delte

If I expect the rules to be followed, then I must follow them as well.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

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[Scurrilous]

35. UN Assembly president in spat with Israel says he got death threats

<snip>

"The president of the UN General Assembly, who is locked in a bitter spat with Israel, said Monday he had received death threats which are being investigated by UN security officials.

Miguel d'Escoto Brockmann, a Roman Catholic priest and former Nicaraguan foreign minister, also slammed as "malicious" and slanderous reports that he allegedly tried to bar Israel's UN ambassador Gabriela Shalev from speaking at a plenary session of the assembly.

A statement released by his spokesman, Enrique Yeves, stated that "very serious threats have appeared on the Internet against the life of the president of the General Assembly.

"This matter is being looked into by pertinent authorities," it added.

The statement also reacted to Israeli press reports that D'Escoto tried to prevent Shalev from speaking last week at a plenary session to mark the 60th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

"This is a malicious and absolute lie that could best be characterized as 'slander'," D'Escoto said through his spokesman. "Information from the media attributes senior diplomatic officials in the Permanent Mission of Israel to the United Nations as the source for this irresponsible accusation."

D'Escoto also slammed Israel's "arbitrary detention" and denial of entry to Richard Falk, the UN's special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories."

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[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. Don't kid yourselves.

Just because those comparisons can't be made here doesn't mean plenty of people watching the news aren't making them.

Having said that, I know that it cuts both ways for sure. I'm sure people often think things about Arabs and Muslims that they can't write here as well. People feel pretty comfortable speaking those thoughts out loud for the most part, though.

The world is much harsher than our little PC cocoon here in I/P-land!

[oberliner]

40. I agree with you on both counts

People have some pretty disgusting things to say about Israelis and Palestinians and Jews and Arabs and Muslims out in the real world.

I'm glad that there are some forums which have rules in place that prohibit that kind of thing and allow for a polite exchange of ideas and perspectives.

[LeftishBrit]

43. You are right

There are plenty of people prepared to compare either Israelis or Arabs to Nazis. Some because they use the word 'Nazi' imprecisely, and cheapen it to mean 'Anyone of whom I disapprove' or 'Anyone who appears too bossy' (cf 'health Nazi'. 'feminazi', and similar terms). And some because they truly hate Israelis, Arabs, Jews or Muslims - and in some cases all of these.

Unfortunately, once the 'Nazi' word is used, reasonable debate and discussion generally ends - especially if it's used around people who do have a strong awareness of the evils of Nazism.

[sui generis]

49. that only makes sense IF

people understand anything more than the outcome of Nazism.

The fact is, we want Nazis to be uniformly evil, just like it's nice to think republicans are uniformly evil. There are some republicans who given half a chance would round up gays and jews and put them in concentration camps, again, and that's not hyperbole.

Before and during WWII if you lived anywhere not on a farm and you had males of military age, your family did not receive allotted food stamps unless they served. Food stamps got you butter, milk, sugar, eggs, and rarely, flour, and according to my gentile Oma at the end, not enough to feed the kids. My jewish Opa was in Dachau. My youngest uncle was undernourished and died of pneumonia. My older uncle, my grandfather's nephew, was interred at Dachau for admitting he was gay. He was 14. He did not survive. Serving in the military under the Nazi party does not make the servicemen Nazis, or at least not as Americans want to believe. My jewish grandfather was a civil engineer by trade (beginning of WWII), and a Franconian diplomat by civic duty (before WWII), so he "served" as a "Nazi" designing bridges, not burning jews. The first time he went to Dachau was because he supported the socialist movement (as an aristocrat himself). Ironically, the second time he was sent to Dachau was not for the social crime of being jewish, but for the political crime of refusing to whip his Italian workers on a construction project, and worse, for photographing the work site and conditions. I have those photos and negatives.

That's one nuance the knucklebrains here seem to miss. The second one is: the Nazi party was the "Nationalist" party (Nazionalist), which had as it's agenda considerably more than ethnic cleansing. Finally, in a perfect storm, there is nothing in the German psyche that is remarkably different than the American psyche: starve enough people, tell them they're evil, backward teutons starting with WWI, make every man, woman and child responsible for reparations and brutally enforce it and guess what: you have WWII and whipping boys all over again.

Don't believe it? Scroll back through some of the rhetoric right here on DU about illegal immigrants RIGHT HERE IN AMERICA.

No, most of the people who can't differentiate here, in this forum, ARE ignorant, and ARE hypocrites, and ARE uneducated except for one or two agenda-specific PBS specials. They WANT to believe that an entire culture is or was evil, ironically, while wailing that another that did that ended up engaging in genocide.

You don't have humanity by demanding it. You have it by showing it.

[LeftishBrit]

52. Plenty of good points here, but when people compare Israelis/Arabs/whoever to Nazis...

they are generally not thinking of conscript soldiers, or what might be called 'economic conscripts', or people who were employed in some way that ultimately depended on the Nazi Party. In a totalitarian state, almose everyone is connected in some way, directly or indirectly, to the ruling party: that's part of what totalitarianism is all about.

What is meant by the 'Nazi' comparison is something different. It generally refers to people who actively subscribe to and co-operate in enforcing ideologies of hate. Enthusiastic supporters of Hitler. Concentration camp guards. People who approve of genocide against certain groups of people, just because of their ethnicity or group membership.

In most conflicts, though they may lead to intense intergroup hatred, there is something other than this hatred at stake: most often, conflict over territory. This is certainly true of the Israelis and Arabs. What is particularly horrific about Nazi ideology is that a lot of it involved a desire to destroy Jews - and gays and Gypsies and disabled people - just for the sake of destroying them.


'Finally, in a perfect storm, there is nothing in the German psyche that is remarkably different than the American psyche: starve enough people, tell them they're evil, backward teutons starting with WWI, make every man, woman and child responsible for reparations and brutally enforce it and guess what: you have WWII and whipping boys all over again.'


I agree - there is nothing fundamentally different in Germans, except a combination of the circumstances that you describe *and* an evil leader coming to exploit the situation at just the right (or rather, wrong) time. It can happen anywhere. And *has* happened to various degrees in other places: e.g. Rwanda; Darfur.

'most of the people who can't differentiate here, in this forum...WANT to believe that an entire culture is or was evil..'


Certainly there are some people in this forum and everywhere who want to believe that the entire Israeli/Arab culture is evil. But not, I think, so many. I very definitely don't believe that Israeli, or Arab, or German, or any culture is simply 'evil'. Quite the opposite. I think that our basic enemies are war itself; hatred itself; violence itself - not any specific culture or nation. There are few people, cultures, or nations that have never at times given in to, or been overrun by these enemies/

[LeftishBrit]

54. I agree about anti-immigrant bigotry as a real problem

I am very sorry to hear about the experiences of your family members.

My family were very lucky among Jews to lose no one in the Holocaust. They were less lucky with regard to East Europaean pogroms.

You may be aware that anti-immigrant bigotry (including bigotry against obvious descendants of immigrants) is a BIG problem in Europe. There are a number of revolting groups, e.g. the BNP here, LePen's National Front, etc., that focus on hatred of immigrants. Campaigning for stricter immigration laws quickly morphs into whipping up hatred against existing immigrants and their descendants. There is a tie to the Nazis, as explicitly Neo-Nazi groups use immigrants, along with Jews, Muslims, and all minorities, as scapegoats.

[azurnoir]

47. Perhaps Mr Falk should enter via

Jordan and the Allenby bridge, an Israeli declaration about "our soil" would be interesting to say the least.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shira]

74. Falk is a dipshit

He's into 911 conspiracies theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Falk#Controversial_positions_and_statements

What a reliable guy. Really now, which clowns at human resources thought this quack was best qualified for his position?

The only reason he was hired by the UNHRC is because they found a Jew who would give seeming legitimacy to their one-sided bias against Israel.

[aranthus]

75. Agree with one correction.

The UNHRC isn't biased against Israel; it's hostile. It's also not about fairness, honesty, morality, and certainly not human rights.