Perle's horizons

[Gimel]

Oct. 19, 2003

By BRET STEPHENS AND MICHAEL OREN

Richard Perle has been widely and soundly denounced on this forum. His connections with Bush are well known. His connection with Sharon is assumed, and his name was enough to ban the Jerusalem Post. Perle's views on the issues are reveled in this interview. His views on the settlements and the peace process, on Arafat and Sharon's strategy in isolating him are discussed. Interesting to see what the actual stance is on the issues.

Meet Richard Perle
Consider an astonishing fact: Richard Perle has never met Ariel Sharon.

It is the second day of the Jerusalem Summit, and Perle is to be awarded a prize in memory of Henry "Scoop" Jackson, the late Democratic US Senator from Washington for whom Perle worked as an aide in the 1970s. We meet around midday in his King David hotel suite, with a terrific view of the Old City walls. Inevitably, our three-way conversation comes around to the subject of "Richard Perle" - not Perle himself, but the creature of the deep that rises when one types in his name on a Google Internet search. It yields the following:

"Bush's svengali" (127 hits)

"A sinister Zionist." (676 hits)

"A very likely Israeli agent." (2,310 hits)

"A truly dangerous man." (4,150 hits)

"The vilification doesn't bother me especially," Perle tells Michael Oren, author of last year's bestselling Six Days of War. "As it becomes more extreme it actually troubles me less." But that isn't entirely right.

Continued here...

[bluesoul]

1. Perle

A truly dangerous man indeed, without the ""....

[Gimel]

2. Have you read his comments?

His reputation is one thing. The Internet seems to be a favorite place for spreading propaganda.

[Darranar]

3. Oh, give me a break!

Richard Perle is a radical neocon. Don't start defending him.

[Gimel]

4. No denfense of Perle

I've posted this interview to shed light on the actual Perle, not the mythical power-monger.

[Darranar]

5. A proud member...

of the Project for the New American Century he is.

Part of the neocon influence on the White House he is.

[Gimel]

6. Yes. As the article points out...

he does Bush's thinking for him. However, he has never even met Ariel Sharon.

[Darranar]

7. So?

What does that change?

There are lots of pro-Israel radicals who have never met Ariel Sharon.

[Gimel]

8. Many assume that he is an advisor to Sharon.

I have seen claims here that he is part of the Israeli government. From the article, I conclude that the US governing elite do not quite know what stance to take on the settlements or what to make of them. Perle is part of the think-tank here, and with all issues in the Mideast. Surly that should be important enough to consider in such a discussion as this forum.

Personally, I have read little of the neo-com policies. I see the general shaping of foreign policy, but the get the words from the mouth of horse himself, so to speak, helps clarify the issues and where the future of the US involvement in implementing policy might be directed.

The words of the eminent participants of this board are filled with wisdom, but to my knowledge will do nothing to affect the actual direction of events.

[Darranar]

9. Well, I don't assume that...

I am not a believer in the vast Zionist/PNAC conspiracy.

[bluesoul]

10. Perle

I know perfectly well what mr Perle stands for, his mentality, ideology and it couldn't be further from everything I as a liberal/progressive stand for. Are you trying to sugar-coat his ideology? He's one of the main figures in the whole neocon thing. But I guess if he's behind Israel 100% he's fine in some people's books regardless of his political and other background.. The next thing I am expecting to hear from some here is that he has an "even handed" approach to the Palestine/Israel conflict. Like the US has always had, right? :eyes:

[Darranar]

11. No, that's not want I'm doing...

High-level neocons are despicable fools for the most part.

All I'm saying is that I don't think any government official in PNAC is currently on the Israeli government's payroll as if he was a double agent.

[bluesoul]

13. For Gimel

Actually Darranar, I was asking Gimel. I don't have a problem with you ;)

[Darranar]

15. Okay...

Thanks for clarifying.

[Gimel]

21. No. If you know everything

then just skip this. FWM

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Many? How have I missed that?

Posts I've seen have never been confused as to which government Perle works for. Anyone who thinks Perle is part of the Israeli govt must have been sleeping over the past few years...

If you are interested in reading of the neo-con policies, some of which are straight from the horses mouth, it's handily available here: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ If I want to read what the neo-cons views are I'll go straight to the horses mouth, rather than head for what is sure to be copious amounts of sugar-coating from that *smirk* ever-so-moderately liberal JPost...

Violet...

[Darranar]

14. That website...

is rhetoric and propaganda for the most part. Look at what they do, not at what they say.

[bluesoul]

16. neocons

We've all seen what they have done since they hijacked the White House..

[Darranar]

17. Exactly...

the website is the honey; what we see in front of our eyes are the stinging bees...

[Violet_Crumble]

18. I can't spot the honey on the website...

Seriously. When I first looked at that site it made my skin crawl. It still does, but I think it's important to read what they say because otherwise we can't try to understand them...

Violet...

[Darranar]

19. Reading between the lines it can seem creepy, yes...

but as I said before, quite a bit of it is propaganda.

Does anyone really believe, for instance, that the neocons intend to give Iraq to actual Iraqis and not American puppets?

[Classical_Liberal]

26. Perle means Iraqies like Chalabi

Lacky Iraqies.

[Gimel]

20. This was on DU1

I don't have searching rights, but the claim was made that Perle was advising the GOI. The link was made, I'm not imagining it.

I'm not interested in the total neo-com philosophy. I've skimmed that site previously. I'm looking at the current issues facing Israel today.

The interview with Perle by Oren who is writting a book on the history of American involvement in the Middle East. Perle actually asks for information rather than gives advice.

If I were an Israeli I would resent people calling on other Israelis to risk their lives so that they can live in this place rather than the other place. I'm certainly not ready to give blanket support to every settlement. If people want to risk their own lives, that's their decision. To ask others to risk their lives - the society as a whole should have a say in that. ...

One of my problems with the settlement issue, sadly, is that it has become in many ways a test of wills. If you abandon settlements it looks like a defeat and it runs the risk of encouraging people whose objectives go far beyond the elimination of settlements. Could you abandon settlements today without greatly encouraging the jihadists? The withdrawal from Lebanon was a catastrophe.

Oren: It helped precipitate the intifada.

Perle: How many of the settlements are indefensible?

Oren: There are 200,000 settlers, not talking about the neighborhoods around Jerusalem. About 150,000 can be put in blocs.... Then you have far-flung settlements, Gaza settlements, that are categorically indefensible. You are talking about 50,000 people.

Perle: What motivates somebody to live in a Gaza settlement?

Oren: Faith. The further out you are, the more faithful you are. There's a settlement where I once did reserve duty. I saw a big banner over the entrance. It said, "In our entire lives, we will never leave here." But it also meant, "We will never leave here alive," and you get that message. These are the guys who are going to stick, they're going to shack up and hold out with M-16s and they'll fight."

Perle: Well, they have greatly complicated Israel's problem. If you're compelled to defend the indefensible, then you're really on the horns of a dilemma.

The Road Map
Oren: I think I've heard or read two different positions of yours on the Road Map. There seems to be divergence there. One is that you are basically supportive of the Road Map....

Perle: I think what happened is that the failure to take up June 24 in a serious way gave the State Department the opening it needed to walk it back. They were horrified at the State Department by the June 24 speech. It was a radical break with previous American policy. So they began working on the Road Map, which was sold as an implementation of June 24, when in fact in many respects it is inconsistent with June 24.

I was rather hoping that the Road Map having emerged, it could be reshaped. But I don't think that's going to happen. The essence of June 24 was first you transform the Palestinian Authority, then you get support for a Palestinian state. The Road Map says begin the transformation of the Palestinian Authority in ways that are reversible and we will start marching towards that Palestinian state. June 24 was event-driven and the event was the transformation of the Palestinian Authority. That was never going to happen quickly. I had been hoping when it first surfaced that the inconsistencies would be pointed out and that Israel would drive it back in the direction of June 24.

Arafat
Stephens: We interviewed Sharon yesterday. A month ago the cabinet decided to remove him at a time of its choosing. Now the prime minister seems to be ruling that out unequivocally. The only thing to do is to wait him out.

Perle: If you're going to wait him out, then why not isolate him totally diplomatically?

Stephens: In fact, that's what they attempted to do. Sharon would refuse to meet with foreign ministers but that policy applied only on the same trip.

Perle: That's absurd. It's a caricature of the real policy. And in any case it doesn't go far enough. I think the policy should be, if you and your country are giving in to Arafat then you and your country will have nothing to do with us. If you send your minister of trade to Arafat, forget about sending any minister to us.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1066540915673


I'll read the Post over the inflammatory UAE site anyday. But enough. I posted something current about the conflict which I thought might interest others. Apparently I was mistaken.

[legin]

22. So what is the bastard up to in israel

An invaison of a country usually takes at least 5 or 6 months to organise. The decision to attack Iraq was taken in August 2002, the actual attack did not take place until March the following year.

Taking a guess at March/April for a combined u.s./israel attack on Syria, this would be the time when there are a lot of diplomatic activity between the two governments just before the 'enterprise' is handed over to the generals to organise the logistics of the thing.

[bluesoul]

23. Perle

"I am happy to see the message was delivered to Syria by the Israeli air force, and I hope it is the first of many such messages."
Defense Policy Board member Richard Perle, in Israel, Oct. 14

[Gimel]

24. Do you have a link for that?

It would seem in better form to provide a link for quotes such as this. I'm not doubting the content. I would rather see it authenticated, however.

[bluesoul]

25. Perle

Sure:

http://www.washtimes.com/world/20031014-092555-2121r.htm

[Classical_Liberal]

27. Gosh this part of the interview was sure cool!

Stephens: There’s a story told about Bush’s visit to the World Trade Center, right after the attack.

He was chatting with some hard hats, and he looked at this one guy and said, "What can I do for you?"

And the man said, "Help the widows and orphans."

And Bush said, "No, what can I do for you?"

And the man said, "You go find whichever m--f-- did this and you kill him and his wife and his mother and his children and his dog and everyone who so much as served him a cup of coffee."

And Bush said, "You won’t be disappointed."

Perle: That story sounds right to me. You know, a lot of our guys in Iraq carry around pieces of the World Trade Center. The chattering classes are talking about the relationship between Saddam Hussein and 9/11. These guys are under no illusions. It’s all part of the same war.

http://info.jpost.com/C003/Supplements/FSB/031017/art.02.html

[Sesquipedalian]

28. this is funny...

They make out his connection to Scoop Jackson like some sort of "liberal" connection. Scoop Jackson invented the neo-con movement.

[Lithos]

29. I wouldn't go so far as to say that

However, Scoop Jackson was a Democrat who was so pro-hawk as to actively desire to continue the war in Vietnam.

Rather interesting tie here for Perle as I think it was Bill Kristol who was head of the Harvard student group supporting Scoop Jackson.

L-

[Sesquipedalian]

31. where would you trace them to?

CSMoniter agrees with me, but they nor I know everything..


What are the roots of neoconservative beliefs?

The original neocons were a small group of mostly Jewish liberal intellectuals who, in the 1960s and 70s, grew disenchanted with what they saw as the American left's social excesses and reluctance to spend adequately on defense. Many of these neocons worked in the 1970s for Democratic Senator Henry "Scoop" Jackson, a staunch anti-communist. By the 1980s, most neocons had become Republicans, finding in President Ronald Reagan an avenue for their aggressive approach of confronting the Soviet Union with bold rhetoric and steep hikes in military spending. After the Soviet Union's fall, the neocons decried what they saw as American complacency. In the 1990s, they warned of the dangers of reducing both America's defense spending and its role in the world.

Unlike their predecessors, most younger neocons never experienced being left of center. They've always been "Reagan" Republicans

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/neocon/neocon101.html

[Classical_Liberal]

33. One thing that doesn't get explored enough

is their connection to the military industrial complex. The miscalculations are so gross in Iraq and during the cold war that I really think they know damn well they are full of it. I just think they are people who thrive in a climate of rage and retaliation, which means they probably have alot of connections to the defense industry.

[Classical_Liberal]

30. Actually he just represented Boeing well

so he had a pretty schizo political career. I don't think the neocons really care about the social conservative agenda. They just pay lip service because the religious right's crazy aupport of Israel.

[tinnypriv]

32. These authors are LIARS

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&safe=off&edition=us&q=%22A+very+likely+Israeli+agent.%22

53 matches for "A very likely Israeli agent.", not 2,310.

Smarter fucking monkeys please.

[bluesoul]

34. lies lies lies

More lies from the neocon world..

[tinnypriv]

36. I'm especially disappointed in Oren

I knew he gravitated towards being pro-lunatic, but his 1967 war book was decent in parts.

(I disagee with Finkelstein on that BTW, he thinks it is total fraud).

[Sesquipedalian]

37. I started to pick it up once..

I've got a habit of looking on the back dust jacket for Daniel Pipe's giving people props and if he is I just decide it's probably trash I've read before and throw it back.

Oren's book fell into that category, but maybe I'll give it a try.

[tinnypriv]

38. Yeah, you've got to consider the audience

His audience is mostly so-called "pro-Israel" folks, and they love that sort of stuff.

My version doesn't have Pipes praising it - I think that was from the advance publishers blurb if I recall correctly.

Mine has The Guardian, WashPost, NY Review, Times Literary, FT, Newsweek etc all falling over themselves about it. Maybe that is all UK specific.

If you do decide to pick up the book (it is pretty short, 300-ish words, excluding the lame footnotes), then I really advise reading it in conjuction with "Abba Eban with Footnotes", which is the appendix to the updated edition of Image and Reality by Norman G. Finkelstein (pages 184-198).

[tinnypriv]

35. More lies

"Bush's svengali" = 14 hits

"A sinister Zionist." = ZERO HITS

"A truly dangerous man." = ZERO HITS

..

I mean, jesus f christ, how dumb are these clusterfucks?

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