Israel, Arab states at odds over first UN gay rights declaration

[oberliner]

Israel has joined a group of United Nations member states calling for the institution's first gay rights declaration, an initiative which has met with resistance by an Arab-backed opposition.

The declaration that was presented Thursday at the UN General Assembly calls for decriminalization of homosexuality.

A Syrian representative read out a statement drafted by the opposition, arguing that the declaration would result in more sex crimes against children.

France and the Netherlands initiated the declaration following the Universal Declaration of Human Rights 60th anniversary that was marked earlier this month.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1048330.html

[madeline_con]

1. Syrian representative ... "more sex crimes against children"

Of course, everyone knows that's the right gays are fighting for. :eyes:

[bemildred]

2. I understand the US does not view this resolution with favor either.

Here we are on the same side as the Muslim states we so deplore otherwise.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h1rNjQnbi3UUwYn7JGfk4pLIO6DgD955IQK80

[izquierdista]

3. The muslim calendar

What can you expect from a people whose calendar is still stuck in the 15th century? I wish I could live to see the day of the Muslim Renaissance and Muslim Enlightenment, but I'm afraid there are still a couple centuries to go.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. Can you explain for us how your "hate" differs from the gay-haters ...?

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

44. Still waiting to hear how your brand of hate is qualitatively different than David Dukes or Jerry

Falwell.

[izquierdista]

49. The object of it is religion

Not something one is born with, like race, sexuality, or national origin. Not something that is determined by biology, like hair color, weight, or infirmity.

No, my dislike is for something that is entirely up to the individual: his (or her) gullibility for the stupid fairy tales known as religion. Education does a world of good in removing this personality defect and allowing people to live lives free of prejudice and superstition.

How about you try this: "There's no such thing as an Allah and Mohammed was a fraud". Repeat that 5 times a day and tell me in a week if you feel better.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. Wow. I'm sure you consider yourself progressive and tolerant.

I'll let your kind words stand as a testament to your character.

[izquierdista]

63. Kind words for religion?

I'm at a loss. :shrug:

[ProgressiveMuslim]

75. Your words are directed at human beings. At me. There was nothing abstract about your hate.

Don't kid yourself. You are the flip side of a very ugly coin.

[Lithos]

71. What does the age of a calendar have to do with it?

The Hebrew calendar is much older than the Muslim calendar.

L-

[Boojatta]

73. The Muslim calendar is connected with the establishment of Islam.

Although it may not be justifiable to assume that Judaism is as old as its calendar suggests, there is reason to believe that Judaism is older than both Islam and Christianity. Thus, Judaism has had plenty of time to become progressive.

On the other hand, a country often associated in the minds of the public with Judaism (a country often known as "the Zionist Entity" or "Israel/Palestine") was established in 1948. Thus, we see that judging Israel by the standards that are used to judge a country such as the USA (which was established in 1776) is arguably unfair. Perhaps Israel should not be expected to achieve American standards of civil rights until another couple of hundreds of years have passed.

In the Revolutionary War, people who sympathized with the British side in the war were labeled as United Empire Loyalists and sometimes deported, robbed, or even killed. Their descendants have no right of return, but today no US citizen is at serious risk of suffering a violation of his or her civil rights merely because he or she is thought to be a United Empire Loyalist.

[Lithos]

76. To be honest

The way I read the statement to which I answered was that Islam was stuck in the 15th century with the proof being that the Calendar was stuck in the 15th Century. Obviously such a proof is silly.

I believe that Judaism, Christianity and Islam have forward thinking groups rooted in modernity and other groups still stuck at various points in history. To pick a subject directly outside of I/P, you can see this schism in Christianity. Obviously you have the Amish, but I think a fair claim could also be said for the post-Darby Evangelical movement which is deliberately mentally stuck in the 1860's.

[Kurska]

4. Oh where, oh where. has the hate Israel crowd gone?

I am so proud of my people on this, we jews have always been at the forefront of any civil rights movement.

[shira]

6. don't expect them to reply

Haters are incapable of admitting to ANY of a VERY long list of Israeli achievements because they're too busy "criticizing" like their Islamophobic/Arabphobic counterparts whose claims are just as irrational and replete with obfuscations, myths, half-baked stories, and outright lies.

[azurnoir]

9. ooops n/t

[shira]

23. you want credit for that backhanded, sarcastic 'compliment'?

you proved my point

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. Do you believe all sects of Judaism are on board with this?

Mea Shearim lately, anyone?

[shira]

62. does it matter?

It's the law in Israel, regardless, including anti-discrimination laws WRT gays (which are non-existant in Jordan and Turkey).

Does it matter whether all Arab/Muslims are on board with progressive GLBT legislation?

When most of the Arab/Muslim world finally becomes more tolerant of gays and religious minorities (including Jews), and fights against discrimination of gays, women, and religious minorities in their own societies, only THEN will they tolerate a Jewish state. Or do you disagree, and believe that if Israel only does the right stuff WRT Palestine, Arab/Muslim leadership will suddenly and miraculously become more progressive WRT not only Jews, but women, christians, and gays too?

[IndianaGreen]

5. Israel is the only place in the region where LGBTs are not imprisoned for being LGBTs

While Israel has its own version of the homophobic religious rabble we have in America, a gay Israeli is safer in Israel than a gay American is in the USA. Of course, when a bomb goes off, it doesn't discriminate between hetero or gay, or between pro-settlements and pro-peace.

[shaayecanaan]

12. What a lot of crap...

Homosexuality is legal in Turkey and Jordan. Jordan actually decriminalised homosexuality before Israel and many other western nations did. In Lebanon it is not but homosexuality is de facto tolerated and there is a fairly active gay scene in Beirut, although police arrest people from time to time. There was a gay scene in Baghdad as well before the Americans liberated it.

Although many try to paint Israel as a gaytopia, it is really only Tel Aviv that enjoys this status. Particularly in Jerusalem you may find yourself on the other end of a stabbing if you're a bit too open about it.

a gay Israeli is safer in Israel than a gay American is in the USA

A bit hard to quantify because there are differences between Wyoming and San Francisco, and Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. By and large though I'd say that's bullshit too.

[oberliner]

13. Israel is easily the most progressive country in the Middle East when it comes to gay rights

Israel is the only country in the region that has laws against anti-homosexual discrimination.

Israel allows openly gay soldiers to serve in the military.

Israel is the only country in the region that recognizes same-sex marriages.

Gay Pride parades are held in cities and towns all across Israel, not just Tel Aviv.

There is nothing even remotely close to the environment that gays enjoy in Israel anywhere in the Middle East - including Turkey, Lebanon, and especially Jordan.

Israel is easily the most progressive country in the Middle East when it comes to gay rights. I find it hard to believe that anyone would attempt to dispute that.

[shaayecanaan]

14. Again, just people talking out of their arse...

Gay Pride parades are held in cities and towns all across Israel, not just Tel Aviv.

The only regular gay pride parade is in Tel Aviv. There have been parades in Jerusalem but these are very contested events. In 2005 a yeshiva student stabbed three people at a parade.

The only other notable parade is at Eilat but this is small scale and occasional.

Israel is easily the most progressive country in the Middle East when it comes to gay rights. I find it hard to believe that anyone would attempt to dispute that.

I don't dispute that, as you can observe from my above post. In terms of gay rights Israel is better than the Arab states, not as good as the West. Israel is like that in a lot of ways.

[Kurska]

15. Now who is talking out of their ass?

How is France, The UK or Germany any better then israel on gay rights? Infact israel recongizes gay marriages performed in other nations, something most of those nations don't do.

If you want to bring up homophobic incidents, all those nations have their fair share.

[shaayecanaan]

17. The people who constantly make bullshit claims on this board are talking out of their arse...

Israel is the only country in the middle East where homosexuality is illegal? No, its not. Its been legal in Israel for twenty-odd years. Its been legal in Jordan for over fifty years.

There are gay pride parades all over Israel? No, there are'nt.

I'm not gay myself and so can't comment offer direct testimony of how safe it is to be gay in Israel vis-a-vis Western Europe. Most travel guidebooks I've read advise discretion on the part of gays whilst travelling outside the greater Tel Aviv area in Israel, which is not the kind of thing you read when looking at travel guidebooks for Sweden or Holland.

As for gay marriage, Israelis have to travel to Canada or Spain to get married, and then travel home to get that marriage recognised - as long as you're willing to take the matter to the Supreme Court. Do you think that makes Israel or Canada more progressive as far as gay marriage is concerned?

[Kurska]

19. Canada isn't all of the western world

You said israel is behind most of the western world in respect to gay rights, infact you said it was in the same position with most rights.
Israel is ahead of germany, belguim and the uk on the front of same sex marriage (These countries don't even recognise foreign ones).

I really don't want this to sound anti-arab, but the only areas that differ in respect to most of western europe on not having violent reactions to homosexuality is East jerusalem and parts of northern israel where israeli-arabs make up a block of the population, they tend to be less progressive on gay rights, but that is by no means a rule, just a commonality (Also orthodox jews might be a little shunning in their attitude, but they are not very violently people at all a few very rare exceptions aside.)

[shaayecanaan]

35. anti-Arab? Goodness gracious me...

Germany, Belgium and the UK each have legislation allowing for civil unions, which are effectively marriages in all but name. Israel does not. Israel does not even permit civil unions in order to allow Jewish citizens to marry non-Jewish citizens, although of course in its magnanimity it allows those people to leave the country and get married somewhere else.

Of course, if you happen to be a bastard (in the literal sense that you were sired from your dad giving his married secretary a quick fuck up against the photocopier) you're also in a bit of a pickle as the Jewish theocrats that hold a monopoly over marriage also hold a dim view of bastards. You have the option of converting to Christianity, which generally has less of a problem with both bastards and converts, and then converting back to Judaism if you prefer (yes, I'm serious). Or you can join those two gay guys and that Arab-loving traitoress on their journey to Canada.

And you consider Israel progressive because of a single Supreme Court decision requiring the State to recognise a single gay marriage settled overseas?

My fucking arse.

[Kurska]

37. Israel has civil unions aswell you IDIOT

And the fact is the least safe areas for gay tourists are areas that are arab majority, don't tell me I know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_unions_in_Israel

Seriously, get educated on the subject or shut your trap already.

[azurnoir]

39. Do you understand what a "civil union" is?

the article says not one word about Israel allowing civil unions, because Israel does not allow civil unions or marriages preformed by judges, ships captains, or any other non-religious person

Same-sex marriage in Israel is currently unlikely since all marriages in Israel are performed under the auspices of the religious authority of the religion to which the couple belongs. The religious authority for Jewish marriages is the Chief Rabbinate of Israel and there are parallel authorities for Christians, Muslims, Druze with a total of 15 religious courts. These regulate all marriages and divorces for their own communities. Currently they all oppose same-sex marriages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage_in_Israel

[oberliner]

41. Common-law marriage

Same sex couples are covered by statutes that regulate common-law marriages in Israel. The partners in a same sex union are treated the same as common-law spouses.

[azurnoir]

50. But hat is not a civil union

it is as more commonly put "shacking up", and what of the offspring of such a union at least when it is not a same sex couple.

[oberliner]

55. Here are some more details that may answer your questions

Here are some excerpts from an Israeli Family Rights website that explains Israeli common law marriage:

What is Common Law Marriage?

A common law couple consists of two partners that live together in a joint household under a common roof creating a family unit without having conducted any officially recognized marriage ceremony to make them husband and wife.

In Israel, where no option for a civil wedding exists, common law marriage is an alternative to a religious marriage that might not suit the couple for legal or ideological reasons. This is especially true as judicial interpretations and legal expansion have given common law marriage a status almost equal to marriage itself during the last few years.

Legal status

Common law relationships are not registered by the Interior Ministry and the personal status of the couple is not changed. However, if proof of the relationship exists, the couple is awarded equal status to that of married couples in many areas.

Obligations and rights

Common law couples have rights and obligations to each other, just like a married couple does. These include the right to pension funds of a deceased partner and the obligations associated with mutual assets accumulated during a relationship.

Children

A child born to a common law couple has the same legal rights as a child of married parents. He or she also has an equal status with regard to custody matters, alimony, inheritance questions and in front of the Rabbinical Court. The child can carry the mother’s or the father’s family name or both.

http://www.newfamily.org.il/rec/187-Common-Law-Marriage/

The site also indicates that many common law relationships include a civil contract between the two individuals.

[shaayecanaan]

64. Its blatantly clear I am far more intelligent than you have any hope of ever being...

Look at the wikipedia entry that you posted. Scroll over to the right. You will observe that countries are grouped together in those that permit same-sex marriage, those that permit civil unions and those that permit unregistered cohabitation - that is, the ability to reside together in de facto relationships.

Germany, Belgium and the United Kingdom (the countries whom you cited as all being less progressive than Israel on the issue of gay marriage) all permit civil unions and are accordingly entered in that category. A civil union is essentially a marriage in all but name. You can have a ceremony, invite your friends over, get a piece of paper, exchange rings, etc.

You will observe, if you have even the basest of comprehension skills, that Israel is not in that category.

Israel permits co-habitation for gay spouses. Broadly speaking, this means that a gay spouse may well be entitled to a bequest in the event that their spouse (for example) dies without a will, but they will have to fight for it and demonstrate the existence of their relationship. A spouse that is party to a marriage or civil union can simply point to the piece of paper.

[oberliner]

25. There have been gay pride parades in Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Eilat, and Haifa

I'm not sure how you can say there are not gay pride parades all over Israel when there is actual documented evidence of gay pride parades taking place in the aforementioned four cities. Those would be locations in the North, Central, and Southern regions of this very small country.

[shaayecanaan]

33. You said "are held" as opposed to "have been held"

"are held" generally implies continuity and regularity. As in, gay pride parades are held in each of Australia's major eastern capitals each year (which is true).

I see that there has been one parade in Haifa in 2007, and it was only permitted after significant resistance from the local authority, and the length of the parade was restricted to about 100 yards. Hope you've got more to go on than that.

[oberliner]

36. And you said "there aren't" gay pride parades held all over Israel

Gay pride parades have taken place in Tel Aviv, Eilat, Haifa, and Jerusalem.

Those would be gay pride parades held all over Israel.

The main gay pride parade takes place in Tel Aviv. but in a country with about the same population of New South Wales, at about 1/15th the size, there are gay pride parades that have taken place across the country.

Just out of curiosity, how many cities besides Sydney host gay pride parades in NSW? Does Newcastle or Wollongong host one?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. Let's be clear Oberliner: There are many places in Israel where those marchers would be stoned.

[oberliner]

48. Arab MK Ibrahim Sarsur did threaten any gay parade-goers who go near the Temple Mount

During the conference Sarsur said “if they (gays) will dare to approach the Temple Mount during the parade – they will do so over our dead bodies,” adding that “the Gay Pride Parade is an attack on Jerusalem that aims to damage the Islamic identity of young Arabs in the city.”

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3268273,00.html

[ProgressiveMuslim]

57. I'm sure they're welcome in Mea Shearim too. LOL. Women are barely welcome there.

[oberliner]

60. Women are barely welcome there?

That is a ridiculous statement.

But I would certainly agree that a gay rights parade would not be well-received in that neighborhood to say the least.

[shaayecanaan]

66. As opposed to the Jewish...

yeshiva student that stabbed three gay parade attendees in 2005, the yeshiva student that was apprehended with a bomb in his backpack at that same event, and the Jewish mob that threw brickbats and screamed "Nazi!" at the police who were safeguarding the event?

What was that about anti-gay sentiment being mainly an Arab problem in Israel?

[oberliner]

68. Anti-gay sentiment is a huge problem all over the world

The Israeli criminal who stabbed the parade-goers is in jail - just like the Americans who beat parade attendees with baseball bats at the Pride festival in San Diego in 2006.

Anti-gay sentiment is a huge problem all over the world, no question about it. That's why it is so important to get a resolution like the one discussed in the OP passed in the United Nations.

Unfortunately, countries like Syria and other member states in the Organization of the Islamic Conference stand in the way of such progress and instead introduce statements connecting homosexual activity to pedophilia.

[oberliner]

26. Homophobic Crime on the Rise in Amsterdam

The University of Amsterdam presented a study on Thursday revealing a drastic increase in homophobic acts in the Dutch capital.

The study reported that 1,512 violent, discriminatory acts had been committed in the first half of 2008, 150 of them targeting gay people, mostly men. In almost 30% of the cases, physical violence was involved, while the remainder were mainly threats and vandalism.

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid66850.asp

Perhaps your information is out of date?

[shaayecanaan]

32. Yeah?

The study reported that 1,512 violent, discriminatory acts had been committed in the first half of 2008, 150 of them targeting gay people, mostly men.

That's it?

150 instances of discrimination against gay men? In a whole six months? Granted, a lot of incidents go unreported, but still...and only 30% involved any physical contact. That's 45 violent incidents against gay men in a large European capital for an entire six-month duration, and that's taking the quote at face value. And that represents a dramatic increase? There are probably that many garden-variety drunken punchups in Amsterdam in a single day - I would be amazed, statistically, if gay men were not involved in some of them.

By contrast, approximately half of all male gay Israelis report violence and/or harassment during their completion of military service.

[oberliner]

34. Amsterdam Issues Warning To Gay Tourists (2005)

The Amsterdam Tourist Board has issued a warning to gay visitors following the high-profile gay-bashing of Washington Blade/Window Media Executive Editor Chris Crain.

Early on April 30, Crain was called a “faggot” and severely beaten by five Moroccan men as he and his boyfriend walked hand-in-hand through central Amsterdam.”It seemed like every direction I turned, I got another punch to the face, and when they kicked me to the ground, time seemed to stop,” Crain said.

On May 13, the Tourist Board’s Herman Terbalkt announced: “Gay visitors should be careful and alert. Some people in Amsterdam are not tolerant of other people. It is a social problem.”

A spokesperson for the main Dutch gay-rights group, COC, agreed.”The feeling of insecurity in Amsterdam is rising,” Rene Soeren told The Times of London. “Gays and lesbians are less willing to walk hand-in-hand because they might be beaten up.

http://www.sfbaytimes.com/index.php?sec=article&article_id=3706

Can you acknowledge that your claim that gay men are warned in travel guides about anti-gay harrasment in Israel but not in Holland was incorrect?

[shaayecanaan]

65. No...

I said that most travel guidebooks advised discretion (ie, secrecy, more or less) on the part of gay couples travelling in Israel outside the Tel Aviv area, which is not something you would read in relation to Holland and Sweden. And given that to date in this discussion I have performed the internet equivalent of kicking seven colours of shit out of you, I hardly see that you're in a position to demand concessions of me.

You can see Moroccan refugees in most of continental Europe. There are certainly far more Moroccans in Israel than there are in Holland, although in Tel Aviv apparently gay bashings are perpetrated mainly by younger (Jewish) Russians.

Both Amsterdam and Tel Aviv are gay friendly cities. The difference is that you can go outside Amsterdam and hold a gay pride parade virtually anywhere in Holland and meet with no resistance, whereas your Haifa residents seem to have struggled for permission to walk the breadth of a parking lot.

[oberliner]

67. Can you identify the travel guidebooks that advise discretion for gay Israeli tourists?

What is the source for your claim that most travel guidebooks advise discretion on the part of gay couples traveling in Israel outside the Tel Aviv area?

Frommer's Israel indicates discretion for gays and lesbians traveling in Arab towns inside Israel - is that what you meant?

I have provided a link that documents a specific warning to gay visitors to Amsterdam. I'm not sure why this information would not be provided in a guidebook for the Netherlands.

I'm also not sure what cities outside of Amsterdam have attempted to hold gay pride parades and were met with no resistance.

Numerous publications have indicated that anti-gay violence and harassment are growing problems in the Netherlands. I'm not understanding why you are so dismissive of such reports.

Here is another example:

Anti-gay violence growing problem in Amsterdam

(Amsterdam, Netherlands) Amsterdam faces an ingrained problem of violence against gay men, despite its reputation as a haven of tolerance, according to a new study released.

Town councilman Freek Ossel said the University of Amsterdam study, commissioned by the city, said the Dutch capital must improve protection of gays, increase education, and encourage reporting of discriminatory incidents.

http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-violence-growing-problem-in-amsterdam/

[shaayecanaan]

69. The rough guide for Israel...

says that Tel Aviv and Eilat are tolerant, and that things become markedly less so once you get into the interior. Lonely Planet says something similar.

You can post as many articles as you like about Moroccans beating up gays in Amsterdam. I can respond with articles about Russians beating up gays in Tel Aviv. That does not change the fact that both Tel Aviv and Amsterdam (and the rest of Holland or Sweden) are worlds away from Ariel.

As for the rest of Holland, Rotterdam and the Hague have gay pride parades, probably the other major cities do as well, I dont know. Gay pride parades in Europe are having to deal with flagging attendance due to them not being considered as "edgy" anymore - nobody cares, basically.

[oberliner]

70. The post had nothing to do with Moroccans

The study referenced in the article indicates that the majority of those who engage in homophobic attacks in Amsterdam are Dutch-born.

Thanks for the info about the travel guides - I'm sure there are parts of Israel that are less tolerant than others - although I'm not sure that this isn't true of countries like the Netherlands.

Edit to add: The Netherlands Lonely Planet Guide says: "Amsterdam's well-developed scene isn't typical of the country as a whole. The further one gets from the capital, the more often gay and lesbian bars and clubs operate behind dark windows."

My claim, and you are free to disagree with me if you'd like, is that while all countries, including Israel, have issues with anti-gay bigotry, Israel has one of the more tolerant/progressive overall environments in the world - comparable with many Western European countries, certainly better than any country in its region, and probably better on the whole than the United States (although, as you pointed it, the US varies widely in that regard).

Clearly it is a debatable point, but I do think it is an assertion that has a fair amount of supporting evidence.

Getting back to the OP, I think we can both agree that Israel should be commended for signing the gay rights declaration and those countries who did not should be criticized severely.

[shaayecanaan]

72. Wrong...

comparable with many Western European countries No.

certainly better than any country in its region Yes.

and probably better on the whole than the United States No.

Getting back to the OP, I think we can both agree that Israel should be commended for signing the gay rights declaration and those countries who did not should be criticized severely.

A reflection of party politics, mainly. Had there been a Democratic administration the US probably would have voted the other way. I imagine if Likud rather than Kadima was in charge Israel would have gone the same way as well.

OTOH, Germany voted for the resolution, even though at the moment the right-wing Christian Democratic Union is in charge.

Mostly, countries that are less religious are less likely to be hostile to gays. Only 23% of Swedes believe there is a God. Nearly 90% of Israelis do.

[oberliner]

74. Israel has one of the highest percentages of athiests and agnostics in the world

According to The Cambridge Companion to Atheism from 2005, Israel has the 19th highest percentage of atheists/agnostics/non-believers in God in the world.

While indeed Sweden is first in that category, Holland, the country we were actually discussing, ranks 15th, just a few places above Israel.

Israel's percentage places it above Canada, Switzerland, Australia, Spain, Italy, and the United States in this statistic.

I disagree with your hypothesis that Israel's vote on the UN statement has anything to do with party politics. As in your example with Germany, I believe that Israel would support this statement regardless of the government in power. As for the US, I guess we shall soon find out if an Obama administration will lead to a change in this regard.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the other points.

That you will not even agree to commend Israel for signing this declaration and criticize those countries who did not seems strange.

[oberliner]

24. You accuse others of talking out of their arse yet your own post contradicts your argument

My claim was that gay pride parades are held in cities and towns all across Israel, not just Tel Aviv.

You imply that this suggests that I am "talking out of my arse".

However in the next few sentences you list two cities in Israel besides Tel Aviv where gay pride parades have been held (Jerusalem and Eilat).

In addition to Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Eilat, gay pride parades have also been held in Haifa. You can see some photos on this person's wikimedia page:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Yuval_Y

So that would be four cities across Israel (a country about the size of Vermont with about the same number of people as New York City) which have held gay pride parades.

Although I find your claim that Israel is "not as good as the West" to be debatable, I'm glad you do not dispute that Israel is better than the Arab states when it comes to Gay Rights or any of the other points that I made about Israel recognizing same-sex marriage, allowing gays to serve in the military, and having laws against anti-homosexual discrimination.

[Kurska]

16. Nation wide laws that protect homosexuals only apply in tel aviv

Thanks for the update.

[shaayecanaan]

18. You're welcome. Glad to be of assistance (nt)

[oberliner]

42. Be sure not to be too open walking around Sydney either

You may find yourself on the other end of a beating that leaves you with a fractured skull.

Thankfully both Australia and Israel signed this UN statement on gay rights - that's more than we can say for the US.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. They're just imprisoned for being brown and Muslim. nt

[oberliner]

38. For Gay Palestinians, Tel Aviv Is Mecca

Al-Fatiha — which calls itself the principal international organization promoting the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Arabs — is located not in Beirut or Cairo, but in Washington, D.C. And no wonder: The international movement for the rights of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people hardly exists inside the Muslim world.

Arab human rights organizations sometimes advocate for gay rights, but they do so sotto voce. In fact, the only country in the Middle East in which gay people may safely leave the closet is Israel. Which is why, for gay Palestinians, Tel Aviv is Mecca.

http://www.forward.com/articles/for-gay-palestinians-tel-aviv-is-mecca/

[ProgressiveMuslim]

46. Too bad heterosexuals aren't afforded basic human rights. nt

[Vegasaurus]

52. Heterosexuals (namely women)

aren't afforded basic human rights in many Arab/Muslim countries.

They are vastly better off in Israel, particularly if they make the mistake of being seen with a man other than their husband, which might bring a stoning death elsewhere in the middle east.

[shira]

61. like they'd ever get them from Hamas and the PLO (or in most any other neighboring state)

Question for you PM:

If it could all be done over again, and in 1967 Israel returned every inch of the land they won shortly after the 6-day war (going back to 1948 borders), would you prefer that?

No settlements. No occupation.

However, that would also mean no national aspirations for Palestinians. Gaza and the W.Bank would have certainly been annexed into Egypt and Jordan by now. Civil rights under Egypt and Jordan suck beyond imagination.

So what would your wish be if you could make the decision? The current situation or the above scenario?

[LeftishBrit]

7. Good for Israel here!

I am not surprised that the Arab states oppose this (most of them are very RW); but why are America, Russia, and China abstaining? This isn't even about gay marriage; it's about the most basic right of *decriminalization*. I trust that the UK and other EU countries supported the declaration? I know countries can't join the EU if they criminalize homosexuality - but that's very recent; it was only decriminalized in the UK in the 1960s.

[azurnoir]

8. How good of Israel

Gay rights are sooo much more important than civil rights for all who live under IDF's or the Israeli governments rule

Actually civil rights for everyone are important no matter who is in power, but apparently for some here its again a case of "four legs good, two legs better"

Before before the bandwagon gets boarded this also goes for Arab governments who have a long ways to go in that area and in womens rights too, much like the US.

[LeftishBrit]

10. These aren't incompatible

One can support both gay rights *and* civil rights for Israeli Arabs. Many on the Israeli Left support both causes actively.

And one can oppose the Occupation *and* acknowledge that most Arab governments are currently far-RW, and more RW than Israel.

In any case, my question still stands: why would America *and* Russia *and* China abstain on such a crucial issue as not making sexual orientation a CRIME?

[azurnoir]

11. I can only answer for America

and that is because there is a "certain" constituency in this country that would make being gay a crime if it could, the same constituency that supports the current lame duck administration, IOW this abstention is pure politics. Perhaps in another month or so America will sign on, in fact I expect we will.

AS to your other point about rights not being incompatible I agree with you, that was not my point it was that this move by Israel will be used by those on this board that do not support civil rights for those in OPT and make excuses on an almost hourly basis for the lack of civil rights, I was not speaking solely of Israeli Palestinians.

[pelsar]

20. not to derail...but to answer..

preserving life is more important than civil rights....as every nation on the face of the earth has shown that it agrees to that principle (though the dictatorships, etc tend to take advantage of that principle).

Israel will be used by those on this board that do not support civil rights for those in OPT and make excuses on an almost hourly basis for the lack of civil rights,

history is your friend: compare civil rights in the OP before the israeli busses were being blown up and after.....once there were more civil rights in the OP and lots of dead israelis, today there are limited civil rights in the OP and israelis no longer fearing getting blown up as they board a bus.

and bombs are still being caught at checkpoints even today.......
_____

the only argument for giving the Palestinians the full civil rights package today (under the occupation) is to assume that israelis dont mind getting blown up on the way to school or work (and i believe that would mean they dont get their civil rights....)

[azurnoir]

21. For the luv

this thread is not the place to have this "debate" it is too OT. I guarantee if you look I have written other things in the past 18 hours bound to raise your blood pressure, but while your here I invite no actually want you to put in your 2 sheckles about gay rights in Israel, not because I think your homophobic but because you actually live in Israel.

[pelsar]

40. gay rights is not much of an issue in israel...

they have their rights...and like all minorities in israel there will be those who are against them..still its an acceptable part of the culture, to even include a movie about two gays in an elite combat unit....officer and solider. (the last bastion of the macho male)

the "debate" about gay rights within israel is a debate like womens rights, handicapped rights etc...its a given that the law protect them, its a matter of education for the rest of the society.

the have their parade in jerusalem to raise the failings of the society, in Tel Aviv, it doesnt even raise an eyebrow.....the whole "debate" here is absurd. If one is looking to demonize israels civil society a better subject would be the gap between the rich and poor, the education system, the way the older population is treated, its universal health care...those subjects have much more meat to them...but to find fault with the society and its gay/lesbian population?.....poor choice.

[azurnoir]

51. Thanks

from what I have read Tel Aviv is the San Fransisco of the ME, as to that last bastion of the macho male wouldn't be a Monty Python fan would you?

[pelsar]

53. Monty Python...

not a fanatic....but a fan.....

(Tel Aviv is not even close in terms of character and beauty to San Francisco)

[shira]

22. give Palestinians the full civil rights package

"the only argument for giving the Palestinians the full civil rights package today (under the occupation) is to assume that israelis dont mind getting blown up on the way to school or work (and i believe that would mean they dont get their civil rights....)"

You mean give Palestinians more freedom of movement and a few other priveleges or choices, not really full civil rights. The reason being, Hamas and the PA will object mightily to the full civil rights package for women, gays, christians/druze, etc. Not that the "pro-Palestinian" side cares when it's mostly Hamas/PA keeping women, gays, and minorities down.

[Vegasaurus]

27. Of course the the Arab nations don't care about civil or human rights

but here on DU, progressives have never worried about things like that.

It's very progressive to protect governments that stone women, hang gays, expect women to be the property of men, are repressive and treat their citizens like dirt.

Expecting these societies to treat their citizens like full human beings?

Nope, we'll give them a pass, since it is very progressive to "hate Israel" and promote repressive regimes.

[oberliner]

28. Here is a list of countries who signed the gay rights statement

The signatories to the General Assembly statement are: Albania, Andorra, Argentina, Armenia, Australia, Austria, Belgium, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, Colombia, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Ecuador, Estonia, Finland, France, Gabon, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Guinea-Bissau, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Montenegro, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Norway, Paraguay, Poland, Portugal, Romania, San Marino, Sao Tome and Principe, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, United Kingdom, Uruguay, and Venezuela.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/18/un-general-assembly-statement-affirms-rights-all

Anyone have a list of countries who signed the Syrian counter-statement claiming that gay rights would lead to the legitimization of pedophilia?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

47. The Arab world has a lot of work to do on this issue, to be sure.

As does the US and many other countries.

It's hard to see Israel supporters talking about Israel as the mecca of tolerance while it is starving 1.5 million civilians in Gaza, while it daily expropriate land, while there are 1000s of Palestinian prisoners in jail without trial or charge...

[pelsar]

54. quite the contrast ......

and i will say that contrast is only kilometers apart...yet they are worlds apart

just a footnote because it reminds me.....
which is why intifada I worked so well....where reservists would be burst into Palestinians homes at 2:00, scare the shit out of the kids...and those same soldiers would see their "own" kids in place of the Palestinians and wonder why they are doing it.... and that was the start of the recognition.....

[ProgressiveMuslim]

56. If Palestinians have to "prove" they are human beings...

Do you hear what you are saying: The key to ending this conflict is NOT Israel taking responsibility for what it has done, and making historical amends, but rather Palestinians behaving like good little victims so that Israeli Jews can believe Palestinians are human beings "just like them?"

Shame on anyone who believes that Palestinians must first prove they are human beings before they "deserve" to the same god-given rights they rest of us claim. What you have written is the most insidiously racist garbage I have ever read on these boards since whats-her-face got TSd.

Here's a newsflash, Pelsar. Intifadah I failed. Perhaps your life has gone on as before, but for your fellow human beings on the other side of the green line, they are still living half-lives at the hands of Jewish Israelis and their American backers, who want to keep Israel "just for the Jews, just in case."

Half-lives for a contingency plan. Sweet.

[pelsar]

59. hardly racist.....

if israel should be taking responsibility for what it has done and is doing..the Palestinians have a lot to answer for as well. I believe you have the argument that because they are the weaker party they dont bear any responsibility.....i disagree, as do many victims of Palestinians violence. They have a simple choice....do things that are smart and get the reactions from israel that further their goals (what you define as "good little victims") or keep up the facade that its far more important to "fight back" using methods that have failed for over 60+ years..but makes people who identify with the Palestinians "feel good". One is practical and has potential the other has proven to be a failure.....you obviously accept the latter.....

actually intifada I didn't fail....it was very successful, it brought in the PLO leadership....arafat the recognized and accepted leader of the Palestinians "returned" and started a self rule.....


and though i thought it was self evident...intifada I took was in fact a removal of the israeli propaganda and the Palestinians were seen not so much as a threat but as people deserving self rule...i have no idea how you defined that as racist.