Leftist Meretz issues rare call for military action against Hamas

[ProgressiveMuslim]

By Roni Singer-Heruti, Haaretz Correspondent

Tags: Israel News, Gaza, Hamas

The left-wing Meretz party on Thursday issued a rare call for military action against Hamas in order to bring an end to cross-border attacks on Israel by Gaza militants.

"The time has come to act without compromise and without narrow political considerations to protect the residents of Gaza-area communities and Sderot," the party relayed on Thursday.

Meretz, which usually calls for negotiation and dialogue with Palestinian militants, said the current escalation in rocket attacks has left Israel with no choice but to work on two fronts simultaneously.

more...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1050015.html

[Kurska]

1. Israel is indeed being left with little choice

I mean perhaps they could build a giant shield over the country, I mean who needs sunlight?
Aww.. who am I kidding, the hate Israel crowd would just label that the "Apartheid-shield"

[shira]

2. Meretz is obviously just a bogus LW organization

How dare a true leftwing org. call for Israel to ever, ever defend against Hamas using military means.......er, I mean call for the deliberate targeting of Gazan children?

Those Meretz guys.....they're part of that retarded left-wing of Israel, you know, faux left-wingers. May as well be hardline Likuders or put Bibi in charge of their phony RW org.

Moshe Feiglin needs work, I hear - maybe he should try heading Meretz with Avigdor Lieberman as his assistant henchman. I mean, what's the difference? Gosh! :sarcasm:

[azurnoir]

5. Welcome back after your Christmas break n/t

[IndianaGreen]

16. LOL

}(

[shira]

23. thank you, are you enjoying Kwanzaa?

[azurnoir]

32. ] Actually yes my daughters learned about it from

their dad but it is really a Hallmark holiday afterall.

[IndianaGreen]

15. If those were Canadian or Mexican rockets landing in our cities and towns

there would be a demand across the political spectrum to put an end to it.

[oberliner]

3. What is your opinion of this?

What is your take on the fact that the left-wing Meretz party supports military action against Hamas?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. I'm curious as to the opinions of the liberal zionists who post here.

Do you guys share that view?

[oberliner]

6. And I'm curious as to yours!

What do you make of this statement from Meretz?

The OP leaves out part of the statement:

A statement released yesterday following a meeting of senior party figures, said: "The time has come to act without compromise and without narrow political considerations to protect the residents of Gaza-area communities and Sderot," the party relayed on yesterday. MK Avshalom Vilan said the position was accepted by the entire party leadership, adding "we are certainly not talking about a ground operation, but the shooters must be dealt with effectively."

<end of statement>

Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. There is no military solution to this problem.

I'm very disappointed that leftists don't seem to be able to see that.

[pelsar]

21. so in the meantime....

i suppose you feel that its best for the israelis to simply accept the rockets on their cities and realistically/practically do nothing about them......

just trying to clarify it

(and they should keep the supplies going in i suppose......while hamas and friends attempt to kill the suppliers as they've done in the past....)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. I thought Bernard Avishai had an interesting blog post:

...One cannot inflict pain on Hamas without magnifying pain on the residents of Gaza, whose support for Hamas was born out of just such violence and political stalemate. One cannot magnify pain on the residents of Gaza without further discrediting the Palestine Authority in the eyes of West Bankers, particularly the youth, whose relative affluence only makes them feel like traitors. Spreading violence means not only new and tragic deaths, but new pictures on al-Jazeera of ambulances pulling bodies from crumbled buildings; new reports on the BBC, or CNN, adding up the casualties, implicitly daring viewers to value the lives of Israeli children over those of Palestinian children. Still want to hit this tar-baby one more time, but harder?


The sad truth is that exercising sovereign power is a more complicated thing than getting your father to beat up his father. In his weekly newsletter, M.J. Rosenberg astutely quotes former Mossad chief, Ephraim Halevy: "' leaders entered into the arrangement . . . with the intention of making it the beginning of a process.' They sold the cease-fire to their followers as means to achieve certain 'deliverables': a prisoner release and an easing of border restrictions. But Hamas got neither, just as Israel did not achieve Gilad Shalit’s release."


Rosenberg continues: "Israel has no difficulty blaming Hamas for breaking the cease-fire. The logic sounds impeccable. If Hamas stops shooting, it will get quiet in return. From the Gazans’ point of view, however, the Israeli blockade is a form of violence. How can Hamas be expected to stop its attacks if Israel keeps a million people penned up in what they view as a vast prison camp?"

http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/

[oberliner]

29. This person's conclusion makes no sense to me

I think the rhetorical question posed in the last sentence of the excerpt you've provided is ridiculous.

I don't see how shooting rockets in an attempt to kill innocent civilians is some kind of logical or natural response to the situation described.

If they hold the view that a million people are penned up in what they believe is a vast prison camp, then one would think that they would take action to change that situation for the better.

Launching rocket and mortar attacks at Israel civilians has not and will not do that.

[Kurska]

7. My opinion: Israel doesn't seem to have much of a choice

Hamas lacks either the will or the ability to the silence those rockets and forgoing any greater political consideration any Israeli government that refuses to protect it's citizens is going to be a short lived one, quickly replaced with one that will.

[LeftishBrit]

8. Not absolutely clear what the view is...

I would support or at least accept targeted military action against those directly involved in violence. I would not support any general 'offensive' against Gaza.

In any case, this is a symptom of a problem of violence and mutual hostility that erupts in many forms. What is needed is negotiations as soon as possible, leading to two independent states. Unfortunately, this is difficult when there is so much uncertainty about the governments' future on both sides.

[pelsar]

9. Left..where is the 'mutal hostility" in this case?

this is a symptom of a problem of violence and mutual hostility

i dont think it can get any clearer than this......the passageways are closed when rockets are fired... opened when they are not (with exceptions like today). Where is the hostility on the part of israel?

the concept that they are attacking israel to force the border openings is nothing more than PR, to goad israel to attack...and using citizens of both societies as their pawns

what kind of negotiations do you foresee?....that israel should keep the borders opened even when attacked? .......should gaza get their own port with complete sea access....i would think that is what they are missing, but we all know what part of those imports could/would bring...missiles that could land on the larger israeli cities.(and then the destruction of the port as reprisal.....)

we all know egyptian wants nothing to do with them.....

[azurnoir]

12. Open the port and build a wall as high as physics allows

it is that simple, oh yes I know there are the what ifs and might could's but nothing is ever 100% assured to demand that is unrealistic and really is only extending the siege and occupation depending on which area you are talking about. Not to mention if killing Palestinians oops Hamas works to stop rockets why are they still being fired, because IDF has not killed enough?

[pelsar]

14. and...

lets just say hamas continues their policy only with longer range missiles once they have a port and starts bombing the larger cities.......no matter how miniscule the chances are in your mind.......

....your "operational" orders to the IDF will be?...........i assume your opinion that israel should not destroy them if it means that people (Palestinians) might get hurt remains.....

is this true?

once again a simple straight forward question...can one get a simple straight answer in your own words?

[azurnoir]

17. Why would Hamas need longer range missiles?

as they have already hit Ashkelon or is it Tel Aviv your worrying about this time? This would not be a job for IDF however more IAF's type of stuff they do have state of art well at least in '91 "smart" missiles do they not, time to use them with caution and what about the US missile detecting system?

[pelsar]

20. there is no technology today...

for intercepting the short flight of the kassams/grads and katushas....

so what your saying...and once again your not writing it out clearly....is what?.......(now that you've learned that there is no technology for stopping them). And the cities?..try askelon, ashdod, beersheva, the ports (now wouldnt that be grand, a hit on a chemical storage tank....i guess one would blame israel for having them in the range of the missiles.....)

____

btw, when israel left gaza, the govt there wasnt supposed to be trying to terrorize israelis after they left, same too with Lebanon, so its quite conceivable that after they get their port, the missiles will continue, just have longer range.

[azurnoir]

22. Did I say all that?

o what your saying...and once again your not writing it out clearly....is what?.......(now that you've learned that there is no technology for stopping them). And the cities?..try askelon, ashdod, beersheva, the ports (now wouldnt that be grand, a hit on a chemical storage tank....i guess one would blame israel for having them in the range of the missiles.....)

But to clarify taking out missiles and the factories was more a job for IAF as they presumably have "smart" weapons and it would spare IDF the danger of a ground engagement and very likely spare some Palestinian lives too.

[pelsar]

24. they didnt do a very good job before....the quiet period...

nor did the IAF stop the katushas from lebanon.....whats changed?

[azurnoir]

30. Hezbollah apparently they not been doing much

or were you talking about IDF who has not had much luck either

[pelsar]

34. the israeli air force...

didnt do much in stopping the katushas....nor the kassams that have been terrorizing israelis for the last couple of years.....

[azurnoir]

27. Part deux

btw, when israel left gaza, the govt there wasnt supposed to be trying to terrorize israelis after they left, same too with Lebanon, so its quite conceivable that after they get their port, the missiles will continue, just have longer range.

theproblem with Gaza is that Israel never really left. or the boots came off the ground except for from time to time but never did they leave water or airspace perhaps as Indianagreen suggested an internetional force could be deployed there and Hamas would like that even less than Israel.
Now as for Lebanon is it the Lebanese government that was raiding or shooting missiles into Israel It has not even been Hezbollah for a while now not since 2006, and it was UNFIL who found the missiles a few days ago

oberliner (1000+ posts) Thu Dec-25-08 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. May not have been Hezbollah

Check out this article excerpt:

Despite the location, it's possible that the rockets were set up by the al-Qaeda-affiliated Ansar al-Islam organization - which previously operated out of the Nahr al-Barad Palestinian refugee camp until it was banished from there by the Lebanese army - in order to try and incite violence along the border so as to make trouble for the Lebanese government and military.

The group has already fired twice from the region where the rockets were discovered and are suspected of having attacked UNIFIL's Spanish brigade.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3644568,00.ht...

[pelsar]

28. there is never an ending for the excuses is there?

The lebanaese govt is responsible for actions taken from its borders, as are all countries (unless of course your extending your double standard to include not just the Palestinians but lebanon as well....can we include israel and say its not responsible for the actions of its settlers too?).

minor correction: gaza has their own aquifer (you seem to have trouble with the geographical placement of the aquifers)

and yes the gazans didnt get complete freedom, they got a start....its called confidence building, a very common practice in the west. Granted they are in the middle east where perhaps little steps are not taken and its a all or nothing mentality.....perhaps the UN or their supporters might help them out with the advantages of it....it might make their lives better....the "all or nothing" mentality isnt doing so well is it?

[azurnoir]

31. The all or nothing approach has not been working to well

for Israel either has it? Gaza's aquifer? Why is it they need water then?

[pelsar]

35. your right ..they're all or nothing approach is nothing but failure....

shame the Palestinians cant figure that one out..but then neither can their supporters its seems......

gazas acquifer?..very polluted, poor sewage system....guess they should have used the imported sewer pipes to fix up the system instead of using them for kassam rockets.....poor choice of limited resources in my opinion, but obviously not the gazan government.....

pulling out of gaza was the first good step...until the kassams started flying over...i'm sure you blame israel for it.....i guess because it wasnt "all" it was just a first step

[ProgressiveMuslim]

26. Did you consider Israel's siege (still in force during ceasefire) as "normal life?"

I pointed Oberliner to what Bernard Avishai had to say:

http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/

One cannot inflict pain on Hamas without magnifying pain on the residents of Gaza, whose support for Hamas was born out of just such violence and political stalemate. One cannot magnify pain on the residents of Gaza without further discrediting the Palestine Authority in the eyes of West Bankers, particularly the youth, whose relative affluence only makes them feel like traitors. Spreading violence means not only new and tragic deaths, but new pictures on al-Jazeera of ambulances pulling bodies from crumbled buildings; new reports on the BBC, or CNN, adding up the casualties, implicitly daring viewers to value the lives of Israeli children over those of Palestinian children. Still want to hit this tar-baby one more time, but harder?


The sad truth is that exercising sovereign power is a more complicated thing than getting your father to beat up his father. In his weekly newsletter, M.J. Rosenberg astutely quotes former Mossad chief, Ephraim Halevy: "' leaders entered into the arrangement . . . with the intention of making it the beginning of a process.' They sold the cease-fire to their followers as means to achieve certain 'deliverables': a prisoner release and an easing of border restrictions. But Hamas got neither, just as Israel did not achieve Gilad Shalit’s release."


Rosenberg continues: "Israel has no difficulty blaming Hamas for breaking the cease-fire. The logic sounds impeccable. If Hamas stops shooting, it will get quiet in return. From the Gazans’ point of view, however, the Israeli blockade is a form of violence. How can Hamas be expected to stop its attacks if Israel keeps a million people penned up in what they view as a vast prison camp?"

[pelsar]

36. is there life "normal"...in gaza

no, nor is the life of the israelis in sederot "normal".....

i realize that confusing the facts is a favorite amongst the "pro palestinian crowd" but its been proven over and over and over again:

no missiles, the border is open....shoot missiles the border is closed......(reminds me of how egyptian/gaza border was "off limits for discussion-took about a year for the border to be acknowledged...guess this too will take that long.)

basic "cause and affect" if the gazans cant get beyond that, then not much is going to change......do you think they dont understand that? is hamas keeping in information from the citizen gazan?

[Vegasaurus]

11. I am in favor of the action

Israel must protect its citizens, and Hamas has the power, as the government of Gaza, to stop the rockets (if they wanted to, which they clearly don't).

[Violet_Crumble]

37. It depends what Meretz means by 'targetted manner'...

I suspect that being Meretz it would mean a limited manner with those who are firing the rockets being hit, and not civilians, which seems to be what past military reactions from Israel have been. If that's the case, then coupled with the call for a resumption of a ceasefire, I'm in agreement with them and find what they're calling for to be completely different to the general (that reads as civilian casualties) military reaction and the opposition to a ceasefire that many others, including quite a few here in this forum support...

[oberliner]

10. Leftist protestors say 'no' to Gaza op

About 150 demonstrators attended a rally in central Tel Aviv Friday to protest the expected Israeli response to Palestinian rocket attacks from Gaza. The rally was organized by the Coalition against the Gaza Siege and by the Hadash movement.

"I suggest that we go the other direction," said Hadash Knesset Member Dov Khenin. "Our power is our tragedy. One powerful blow will not bring the end. They will respond with rockets and eventually we'll embark on an all-out war. Going in the other direction means reinforcing the lull, securing a ceasefire, and lifting the siege that only serves to unite the population around Hamas."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3644819,00.html

[IndianaGreen]

18. Well, they do have a point, but consider who they are dealing with

Hamas wants a strong Israeli response so that they can then justify their own intransigence and reactionary views.

I am of the view that this conflict can only be ended by restoring the pre-1967 borders, and putting an international military force separating the two sides. Left alone, the Palestinians will revert to civil war culminating in a partition similar to that of Pakistan and Bangladesh.

[azurnoir]

19. You are IMO quite correct

about an international force but it is not just the Palestinians that need a bit of supervision, strange though the Israeli government has rejected an international force but wants the finger pointed at Egypt or so it seems from comments here.

[shira]

38. that Int'l force must have some teeth

how's that force working out in S.Lebanon, allowing Hezbollah to do whatever it wants?

problem is, no one outside of I/P wants to regulate Hezbollah or Hamas and do the kind of job necessary to keep the peace going. Not just arresting a few people now and then to show they're doing "something" but actually destroying terror infrastructure about as well as the Israelis would do it if they were there. If an Int'l force were in the W.Bank right now instead of Israel for the past 2-3 years, there's no doubt Hamas would be in charge by now and the rockets and mortars would have long ago started falling on Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion airport.

[Vegasaurus]

33. There needs to be a partition, and peacekeepers

if only to keep the Palestinian factions from killing each other too.