Two killed, 12 hurt in twin Israeli air strikes in Gaza City

[Gimel]

(however much I wish for peace, the war progresses. The objectives of each side were clear from the beginning. )

Two members of the Hamas military wing were killed and five people were wounded Monday in an Israel Air Force strike on a car in Gaza City, a Hamas source said. The assault was the second in the Strip's main city in hours.

In the first strike, combat planes struck a Hamas weapons factory in the city, the Israel Defense Forces said. Seven people were wounded in the strike, including two infants aged 2 and 3.

Hours later, a helicopter gunship fired missiles at the vehicle containing the two militants. The Hamas source said two bodies were brought to a morgue in the city after the strike.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/351800.html

[drdon326]

1. Destroying a weapons factory??

Killing militants??

Could a UN condemnation be too far behind ??

( ot-Kofi was singing a different tune when his UN headquarters in
Baghdad was destroyed. )

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Wounding children??

"Seven people were wounded in the strike, including two infants aged 2 and 3."

If yr expecting people to approve of a bombing that wounds small children, you've got another thing coming, don...

Violet...

[bluesoul]

3. Well

As long as those are Palestinian children wounded or even killed that's just fighting terrorism...

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Apparently so...

What's more, those wounded toddlers aren't even deemed worthy of a mention in the post I replied to, which is really sad...

Violet...

[Gimel]

17. Yes. The 5 children killed in Haifa

This was also a tragedy, and crime against humanity. Not many seemed to not the children on the two threads that were posted concerning the Haifa bombing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=18135&mesg_id=18135

[bluesoul]

18. Well

Gimel it is ALWAYS a tragedy when children or other innocent civilians get killed, regardless if they are Palestinians, Israelis, Americans, Europeans, Asians, Africans or whoever else. You will never hear me applaud such actions or look for excuses for them. Some unfortunately do (like the anti-terrorism excuse for droping a bomb on a highly populated civilian area supposed to be aimed at terrorists)

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Huh?

Maybe because no-one turned up commending the structural damage done to that restaurant and ignoring the human cost in the destruction of that restaurant. If they had I would have been right in there, so don't try yet again try to imply that I value children of one group over another, because I don't...

Violet...

[Gimel]

24. Glad to hear it, vc.

Your even-handed approach is appreciated.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Thanks...

I think that most, if not all of us here do find it tragic when children are wounded or killed in any conflict. I suspect that for a small number (not you in this case, as I noticed you said it was tragic) the heat of the moment when discussing the conflict makes it so their real feelings about children being caught up in it are pretty hard to spot sometimes...

Violet...

[drdon326]

21. Well........

Counter-terrorism sucks......only because TERRORISM SUCKS
A WHOLE LOT MORE.

Put the blame where it belongs....with the terrorists,
its leaders, and the little asshole propagandists who
support them.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Wounding children isn't counter-terrorism...

Counter-terrorism seems to be a nifty term that can be used to try to justify just about anything. Yet wasn't it you in another thread a few days ago that opposed attacks on troops? There's something wrong somewhere if you do that, but when it comes to Palestinian children can brush off their being injured with a pretty useless, nothing sort of term...

If we're going to play the blame-game, it's pretty obvious that the blame for those children being injured lies squarely with whoever in the IDF ordered the bombing...

Violet....

[bluesoul]

31. oh my

"Put the blame where it belongs....with the terrorists"

IDF kills children, civilians and all you can say is the "terrorists" are to be blamed?!? Who killed them, the IDF or Martians?

Such statements are clear proof that some do use the wildest possible excuses however lame they are to defend such policy. Hypocrisy at it's ugliest..

[number6]

58. What Bull

..or as they say B S >>

[captainamerica101]

6. YES it is isn't it?

It's how they REALLY think and it is DARN creepy if you ask me.

Funny how we never SEE the never-endlingly alleged Palestinian bomb/weapon factories and have to take the word of the only country in the world with only ONE sole "ally" (us).

The only country in the world that no one wants to say good things about is Israel.(But that must just be blatant anti-semitism in 99.9% of the world then right)?

Pathetic justification by Israel to keep their hands so far up these Palestinians butts that Palestine's most educated (lawyers and doctors) are suddenly snapping and becomming "terrorist suicide bombers".

And for that we are going to knock down 1,200 homes this week.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. Not quite...

The only country in the world that no one wants to say good things about is Israel.

There's actually some very good things to be said about Israel. I've read it's taking a shift to the right politically nowadays, but Israel has some great things about it that I wish the US would learn from, like gun-control laws, it's the most multi-cultural nation in the world (we clock in 2nd spot), real reproductive freedom for women, and a more open media. What I can't find good things about is the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, but even that criticism will get you labelled a hater of Israel by some in this forum....

Violet...

[captainamerica101]

5. I am with you Violet!

I was debating Gimel here in another room about Israel's VALUE "to America" for being an international embarrassment such as this just last night.

He blew like a breeze after tossing me a few short cheapies about what the meaning of is is.
(Actually, we argued about LITTLE things really, but the question remained "unchallenged" by all who were trying to flame me for being new on a board and BARELY OFF on my CORE facts.)

Israel is no use to America.
America's biggest welfare state EVER!
Millions (per Israeli) from us in the USA since 1948 and this is what we get from them.

Over and Over and Over.

[Gimel]

7. welfare state

If that money really went to "welfare" you might have a point. "Millions (per Israeli) from us in the USA since 1948 and this is what we get from them."

However, the war eats up most of the money. Military expenditures (US goods) are half of the purchases.

The US foreign policy would have no value if it weren't for Israel.

[bluesoul]

11. What?

"The US foreign policy would have no value if it weren't for Israel."

Are you saying that Israel is the only reason for US foreign policy to exist? One could read this as an admission that US foreign policy=Israel's foreign policy.. Maybe you'r saying too much

[Gimel]

28. US existence

Are you saying that Israel is the only reason for US foreign policy to exist?

While I disagree with this on the surface, there is a deeper meaning to all events.

However, what I was considering is the total lack of focus for the present foreign policy, if it were not the war on terror, and Israel is well positioned for that. Now that the Communist threat and the Cold War are in the past, the real global struggle, between the east and west becomes evident.

[captainamerica101]

13. Elaborate on that "value" then Gimel. I HAVE to hear it!

Back to semantics we go. (And easter is on it's way.)

Okay, but do you doubt America gets little in return from Israel but GRIEF for this money?

[Gimel]

29. Is that a personal or national assessment?

It seems many disagree with that.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Welcome to DU, captainamerica...

...after tossing me a few short cheapies about what the meaning of is is.

That tickled my funny bone, probably because after endless rounds of what the meaning of words like genocide, terrorism, etc are, I can so relate to that :)

I don't think the destructiveness of the relationship between Israel and the US is one-sided. Chances are that those billions of $$$ in aid would have gone on US military spending rather than on more deserving projects if the US hadn't been giving Israel all that aid. And a clinging dependence on the US for protection in the form of either defence pacts or funding so that another nation can build up its military arsenal is incredibly destructive for that nation. In the case of Israel as well as a few other nations I can think of, they're more than capable of standing on their own two feet and being a lot more independent than they are. But unfortunately policy built out of invasion anxiety results in other nations subjugating themselves to US interests in whatever region they're in, alienating neighbours in their region, and in some cases the most piss-weak, pathetic, and embarressing basis for foreign policy decisions known to mankind. And I'm not just talking about Israel here...

Violet...

[captainamerica101]

16. Hey thanks Violet.! Your my first girl. (snicker)

Actually your the first person PERIOD to say hey to a bad typist new on the scene at DU (new on the scene anywhere the electron flows really).

Yeah, I know. They seem to always want to stick to trivialities like how many times you brush your teeth up as opposed to down failing to see that you are still brushing any way you look at it.

I would LOVE to chat about Israel because you sound SANE, but alas, I must depart for now.

Sleep...Those little slices of death. How I loathe them. -POE
(Yeah, but WOW I was up all night and I am out of here till tom.)

Bye 4 now Violet!
(Handle this guy Gimel for me in the meantime, eh?)

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Goodnight....

I've got to admit that while trivialities give me the shits, I see a difference between trivialities and over-exaggeration plus inaccuracy with facts, something that 'Team Israel' is highly prone to, but not taken after with the same enthusiasm as I saw in the thread I just read :)


Violet...

[Lithos]

53. To be fair

Both Team Palestine and Team Israel are both equally prone to spin and quibbling over details. Comes with the territory.

L-

[tinnypriv]

54. Only Team Israel has a hold on some territory

;-)

[Lithos]

61. That's not the issue

The statement was only one side in this forum spun facts in the I/P debate. This is patently absurd which for proof I offer my amply filled alert inbox!

:)

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I didn't say that...

I never said only one side in this forum spins facts. That I was replying to someone who was doing a fair bit of spinning themselves should have made it clear that I think spin comes from all sides. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I was more interested in the time in noticing how some people take after people spinning on the 'pro-Palestinian' side with an obvious enthusiasm and sometimes downright nastiness, while not taking the opportunity to be so enthusiastic when it comes to spinning from 'Team Israel'...

Violet...

[Gimel]

9. The children wounded

This article does not specify the nature or severity of the wounded chilren. The mother of the children comments:

"Suddenly we heard a big boom and it was like an
earthquake, everything started to fall on us,
glass, pieces of debris," said Rawda al-Jamal,
whose children were hurt in the attack.
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/351800.html

[Violet_Crumble]

12. And?

Do children have to have a certain level of wounding for it to matter to you?


Violet...

[bluesoul]

14. well

Apparently they must be lucky to be alive..

[Violet_Crumble]

15. And...

They should be damn grateful to Israel for not killing them. Little ingrates! ;)

Violet...

[Gimel]

23. Do my posts always

..merit a snide remark from you? I in no way implied that. Just looking at the lack of posts about the 5 children killed in Haifa earlier this month.

However, if wounds of these children are light, I would be greatful, wouldn't you?

[Violet_Crumble]

38. What were you implying then?

And it wasn't a snide comment. It was a question based on what you posted. And of course I'd be grateful if they're not badly wounded, but if they weren't that doesn't make what happened any better because they shouldn't have been injured in the first place...

I posted above about why I didn't get involved in any threads about the Haifa bombing and why I got involved in this one....

Violet...

[Aidoneus]

20. at least 2 dozen said wounded now

including 4 children and a 70yr old woman--obvious terror suspects.

These rockets are said to be in response to the Qassam rockets fired into "Green Line" Israel recently. I happen to be in favour of the latter, as its the best of both worlds--the proper message of continued resistance and defiance on the one hand, and nobody was hurt by it. The difference is that many are usually rushed to hospitals and morgues when Israel fires their rockets into cities.

[drdon326]

26. What??

"These rockets are said to be in response to the Qassam rockets fired into "Green Line" Israel recently. I happen to be in favour of the latter, as its the best of both worlds--"

So youre in favor of Qassam rockets attacking innocent people?

am i reading you right??

[Aidoneus]

27. quite obviously not

I happen to be in favour of the latter, as its the best of both worlds--the proper message of continued resistance and defiance on the one hand, and nobody was hurt by it.

this may be of assistance to you:-- http://www.readingcomprehensionconnection.com/

[Gimel]

30. It is the intention

of harm that is more pertinent here, it seems to me. That no one was injured this time proves nothing about the next time.

[Aidoneus]

37. there's a bit of a difference (splitting hairs, but worth noting)

the Israeli missiles fired from helicopters are quite deliberately intended to harm and are of the technological level to hit more or less exactly what is intended, with full knowledge of the "unintended" harm that predictably will go along with it--in this case, in a visibly busy intersection where school kids are trying to cross.

On the other hand, the terms Qassam rockets and aim don't exactly collide in the same sentence, and are more of a gesture at best (and due to the lack of harm to innocent life they've caused, that's why I said I favour them as opposed to the humanbombs hitting "Green Line" Israeli cities, for example). The real offense with these by comparison is not the damage they do--or as is often the case, don't do--, but that anything flies in the other direction at all.

[Gimel]

41. Eliminating the problem

This is still a priority for defense. Rockets whizzing through a residential area is not especially tolerated by any nation in the world.

[Aidoneus]

43. except an idealized Gaza?

.

[Gimel]

46. Ideal is peace

If there was peace, and therefore no terrorist organizations, no rockets would be needed anywhere.

[bluesoul]

47. vice versa

If there was no occupation, illegal settlements, IDF killings no terrorist organizations would be needed...

[Aidoneus]

51. you didn't get it..

You said that rockets "whizzing through a residential area is not especially tolerated by any nation in the world", except that the implication is that it's perfectly fine and expected for people in Gaza to sit still and take it with a smile when rockets fall on them.

[Gimel]

63. Where is that implication?

It is not in the words or my intent.

[Aidoneus]

33. Back-To-Back Israeli Strikes Kill Three

a reference for the various things I say above:--

Back-To-Back Israeli Strikes Kill Three
Monday October 20, 2003 11:46 AM
By IBRAHIM BARZAK
Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Unleashing two air strikes in less than three hours Monday, Israel killed two Hamas members and a bystander and destroyed a suspected rocket factory run by the Islamic militant group.

At least 23 people, including four children and a 70-year-old woman, were wounded in the attacks, Palestinian hospital officials said.

--snip--

The pickup had stopped at a traffic light near a gas station, on a busy street crowded with schoolchildren, when the missiles hit the front of the vehicle. A kindergarten and an elementary school had just let out students for the day.

``Schoolchildren were trying to cross the road (at the time),'' said bus driver Ahmed Sobeh, who was driving behind the pickup at the time. ``I saw a person in the car being evacuated and his body was completely burned. I also saw a teenager on the side of the street covered with blood but he was alive.''

A Palestinian motorist also was killed in the attack. Palestinian hospital officials said 12 bystanders were wounded, four of them in serious condition.

--snip--

Hamas has fired dozens of Qassams, with a range of about six miles, at Israeli border towns and settlements in Gaza. On Sunday, at least eight rockets were fired into Israel, causing no injuries.

Doctors at Shifa hospital in Gaza said that 11 people were wounded in the first air strike, including four children, one of them 2 years old. A 70-year-old woman was in critical condition, they said.

--snip--

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-3285945,00.html

[rini]

32. Children being hurt is never anything to rejoice about.

People who build ammunition/gun factories in the middle of a residential neighborhood are guilty of child endangerment to say the least. The truck was full of ammunitions. I do wish the IDF had followed it and destroyed it at a later time.

[Aidoneus]

34. unbelievable..

helicopters fire rockets at a visibly busy intersection when kids are getting out of school.......and you still blame them for it!, with nothing said of the people firing in such conditions themselves.

By the way, any explanation for this?:--
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=22195&mesg_id=22216&page=

[bluesoul]

35. Unbelievable...

indeed

[Forkboy]

55. Unbelievable...but totally expected

[rini]

66. another lie

Yesterday, the Palestinians "reported" how the bombs injured and killed dozens of innocent bystanders. Members of the Knesset even offered to pay the poor victims.

Tonight aerial photos released by the army show the car was alone on the road. A car containing terrorists and a suicide bomber equipped to go. No bystanders at all anywhere. It was targeted and hit. It rolled backwards. An ambulance came by. The plane waited until the ambulance passed. Then it hit the car again. Three bodies were seen after the attack.

Well, why aren't we surprised?

[Darranar]

67. Notice how the IDF...

didn't release later footage of the attack, when the plane fired a rocket into the crowd surrounding the vehicle...

Yah, we aren't surprised by the IDF lying.

[Aidoneus]

39. al-Jazeera's version

contradictory claims between the IDF & wire agencies, as usual.. :shrug:

I seem to have misspoken earlier, I mentioned a helicopter when it appears to be an IAF jet instead. On the other hand Haaretz's version mentions a helicopter firing on the crowded intersection, perhaps it was rather that the both were involved in the different rocket firings?

Three killed in Israeli airstrikes
Monday 20 October 2003, 14:31 Makka Time, 11:31 GMT

Three Israeli missile strikes on Gaza have killed at least three Palestinians and injured 14 people including four women and three children.

The airstrikes, fired from Israeli jets and helicopters in a space of four hours, slammed into densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip.

The target of the first attack was Abd Allah al-Shami, a senior Islamic Jihad official who narrowly escaped being hit. The rocket missed its target and slammed into a building opposite al-Shami's house, causing widespread damage.

--snip--

Al-Shami, who was targeted in the first airstrike, said: "Israel targets all people of Palestine including old, women and children everyday.

--snip--

He added that the building which was destroyed next to his home was not a weapons factory, adding: "The owners of the house, a Palestinian family, were happily waiting for it to be built but Israel has deprived them of this happiness as their home has been completely destroyed."

--snip--

The Israeli army denies targeting al-Shami saying that the rocket hit the planned target, an alleged weapons factory used by Hamas.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/605CF2DB-74BD-4C4B-B463-79211ADA9248.htm

[Gimel]

40. A third strike reported

Besides on Ha'aretz, the New York Times report:

The flurry of strikes, all within a period of four hours, took place after Palestinian militants fired a barrage of homemade rockets into southern Israel from Gaza on Sunday. Such attacks -- including Sunday's, rarely cause casualties, but they often provoke a strong response from Israel. Also Sunday, a Palestinian ambush in the West Bank killed three Israeli soldiers and wounded a fourth.


http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Palestinians.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

42. It worked

Despite those who hate any action taken against terrorists, this action worked. ANY action taken will likely result in a loss of life for bystanders because it is a crowded area and the terrorists have installed themselves there deliberately to cause maximum civilian casualties.

A massive ground assault would be even more deadly. This was a surgical strike that killed those intended. It is always sad when innocents are wounded or killed. Many more might have died if these Hamas bastards had lived.

If the Palestinian people wish to object to Israel going after the terrorists, then the only option they have is to do it themselves. Lacking that, Israel has no choice.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

48. I think my comparison was valid

That it was disappeared just confirms the suggestion of hypocrisy slightly alluded to on the side.

Gaza has about as much to do with the West Bank-originated humanbombs inside Israeli cities as Brooklyn does to the hardline settlers camping out in the OPT. Offing people in Gaza is killing for the sake of filling graveyards, and because it is easy to do, not defusing any real "threat".

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Hamas

Hamas is a terrorist organization. Killing members of a terrorist organization is killing terrorists and doing the world a service.

[captainamerica101]

56. HOLY PROPAGANDA BATMAN!

"...Hamas is a terrorist organization. Killing members of a terrorist organization is killing terrorists and doing the world a service..."

WOW!
Since you chose Mr. King as an avatar, then perhaps you can relate to Mr. Nelson Mandella when he says, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." my son.

Hamas don't bother ME since MY concern is the preservation of AMERICA"S security.

Let Hamas eat Israel.
(Hah, I'll even send them the gravy, biscuits, and a fine bottle of Kiante' PERSONALLY on behalf of the United States of America.)

Useless allies like Israel (that alienate us from 9/10ths of the world over)should be tossed off the deck of the, "U.S.S. Liberty" (remember the Liberty?) as the overly burdonsome "allies" they are.

Funny how you see Hamas (who does NOT threaten American political/security/military interests) as the "terrorist orginization" and I see Israel (who SURELY DOES threaten American political/security/military interest) as they sit on their 60 year hornet's nest and continue to beat the area with a BIIIIG stick.

Funny how NOT ONE COUNTRY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD (barring America perhaps)has ANY mutual defense pact(s) with Israel when even Third World Zimbabwe has this type of military ally in the world.

Real popular country Israel is, eh?
Allies for Israel are comming out of the wood work to publicy defend their "honor" (of which there is little) and what is going on in Palestine. (HUGE LAUGHTER!)

VERY GOOD PROPAGANDA SNIPPET THOUGH MY FRIEND!
:toast:

[Darranar]

57. So killing innocent civilians is all right and fine with you?

And yet the main reason for your hatred of Israel is that they harm innocent civilians?

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Mandela is no MLK

One man's terrorist is, well, another man's terrorist. Deliberately targeting civilians is terrorism. It is a universal definition.

My concerns are many. Some of them involve continuing American security. Some of them involve having a world where millions are not slaughtered by those like Hamas.

Should Hamas try to eat Israel, it will find it does not digest well. As for the rest of the world, the ensuing conflagration would devastate the entire region.

Ah, you wish us to abandon Israel. Somehow I can here America Firsters saying the same thing in my mind during the 1930s. Abandon Europe, it is inconvenient. Abandon those Chinese, Japan means us well. Abandon the Jews, Germany is only dealing with troublemakers.

Israel is an American ally. As such, Hamas threatens our security needs as well as Israel's.

Why is it funny that the nation of the Jewish people receives much the same treatment that the Jewish people have received for 2,000 years?

Perhaps you should try bagels instead of toast.

[edzontar]

65. Mandela is a great man, quite worthy of comparison to King

Please don't belittle him to defend your rather curious choice of an avatar.

I say curious because you are a self-proclaimed defender of guns and violence in many circumstances, which Dr. King certainly was not, and which Mandela ultimately rejected in favor of peaceful and political change.

Prime Minister Rabin was another hero of the Mandela type who fought bravely for what he belived in, but then saw the better way of peace.

And he was shot by a fellow Israeli--a rightwing, settler-movement religious-fanatic, to be precise.

Israel has its terrorists and murderers too--just like any other country or group of people.

Dr. King would never provide an aplogia for any of this.

[bluesoul]

45. Surgicle precision

Surgicle strike indeed..

[tinnypriv]

50. So a WB-based group attacks occupation soldiers there and GOI hits Gaza?

Makes perfect sense. :eyes:

[bemildred]

52. Yeah.

I sorta figured this was payback for the dead soldiers,
can't let that go. We seem to be in a minority in that opinion
though. Most seem to go along with the rockets story, but I don't
think so, no blood spilled there, no retribution on this order
required.

This is kind of like the US attacking Afghanistan to "respond"
to the WTC attack. Can't find the guys who did it, so let's go
whack some other people that we know where they are.

[Darranar]

59. All this damage...

all this killing, just so one militant can be "liquidated?"

Why doesn't Israel excersise more caution in doing such things?

[bluesoul]

60. Exercising caution

You're very diplomatic Darranar ;)