IAF helicopters hit car in fourth Gaza strike in twelve hours

[drdon326]

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/351800.html


Israeli helicopters Monday evening fired at least
two missiles at a car near the Boureij refugee
camp in central Gaza, according top Palestinian
witnesses.

Palestinian rescue services said five people were injured, one
seriously. There was no immediate word about who was in
the car.

Earlier Monday, the IDF launched three air strikes in Gaza City
in the space of several hours, killing two members of the
Hamas military wing and a passerby.

snip

Hamas on Monday vowed to avenge the strikes.

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia
condemned the strikes, saying they made it
harder for Israel and the Palestinians to hold
talks on ending violence.

"These Israeli acts do not help cease-fire
talks, they discourage them. Unfortunately this
is part of the permanent Israeli aggression
against the Palestinians. We want the Israeli
government to sit down with us and negotiate a
cease-fire," he told reporters in the West Bank
city of Ramallah. "The world should wake up to
this aggression," he said.

==================================================================

it really doesnt pay to be a terrorist.

[bluesoul]

1. aha

Especially if one is a civilian...

[number6]

24. yes , doesn't pay to be a civilian

standing any where near a terrorists house or
car, hey why not use a freaking B-52 and 5000 lb bomb eh??

[Aidoneus]

2. another version--Six dead, scores hurt in Israeli air raid

Six dead, scores hurt in Israeli air raid
Monday 20 October 2003

The Israeli army has launched a new missile strike on a target in the Gaza Strip, killing at least six more Palestinians and wounding scores more.

The latest attack, the day's fourth, was aimed at a car in Nusayrat refugee camp.

The vehicle took a direct hit from what witnesses said was a missile fired by an Apache helicopter, killing its two occupants.

A further missile was fired into a crowd of people gathered round the destroyed vehicle, causing at least 70 more casualties including at least four fatalities, according to Aljazeera quoting Palestinian medical sources.

The attack followed a wave of airstrikes Monday by helicopters against targets in the densely populated areas of the Gaza Strip.

The target of the first attack was Abd Allah al-Shami, a senior Islamic Jihad official who narrowly escaped being hit.

The rocket missed its target and exploded near a building opposite al-Shami's house, causing widespread damage.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/605CF2DB-74BD-4C4B-B463-79211ADA9248.htm

[Aidoneus]

3. Reuters says 6 & 40

initial AP "at least 2" and "at least 35", later AP reports say 6 & 70. If that missile hit the crowd of bystanders as the witnesses and wires say, that's all an estimate at best anyway..

[tinnypriv]

4. If that is true

That is a dispicable crime and a form of intl. terrorism.

[tinnypriv]

5. Speaking of which

It is no wonder the US voted to prevent the UN Human Rights co-ordinator from coming to New York to present his report on the situation in the Occupied Territories.

140-2. Splendid isolation, as usual. :eyes:

[Darranar]

6. Sloppy firing...

with very little care for innocent bystanders.

Welcome to the world of Israeli extra-judicial assasinations.

[Loyal]

7. You're so biased, Darranar.

I have tried to look at your posts fairly but I still have YET to see you condemn Israeli suicide bombings. You always find some way to blame them on Israel. You're biased.

[Darranar]

8. You clearly haven't read them enough, have you?

Let me go back to a few old threads and postm my condemnations for you, then...

Suicide bombers are indeed a result, to an extent, of Israeli policy; the same way Israel's incursions are to an extent a result of Palestinain terrorism. That does not mean that either are justified or excusable; nor does it mean that the one who committed the action should not be condemned in the strongest terms.

[Aidoneus]

9. don't pander to him

if he wants to derail the subject with such cheap attacks on you, then fuk'em.

Let's see talk about this before he is approached as any authority on "bias".

[drdon326]

10. LOL

HAHAHAHA.....YOU TOO , huh???

[Darranar]

11. LOL...

indeed.

Both of you are indeed very funny. Seriously.

[drdon326]

15. Hey....

i didnt say i agree with it.

[Darranar]

16. Do you?

[drdon326]

19. Absolutely not.

.

[Loyal]

25. I think a lot of people do

Your bias is pretty obvious, Darranar, and that's fine. From now on I will look at your posts on I/P and assume that inside each one lies a Palestinian bias. :hi:

[Darranar]

29. Growing up in an ultra-Zionist school...

and having been surrounded by ultra-Zionist bias for quite a bit of my life, I could see you coming to that conclusion. :eyes:

Thanks for showing that you either don't read my posts or don't understand them.

[Loyal]

12. Yeah, me too

nt

[Violet_Crumble]

33. This reminds me of a recent thread...

Same thing. Claimed you'd never seen something happen, just like you are now with Darranar. Still waiting for an apology for this one, don, not that I expect that would be forthcoming. Just in case you 'missed' it, the Magistrate confirmed that what you claimed hadn't happened did indeed happen...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=21474#22483

Violet...

[Darranar]

34. I think I probably should defend drdon here...

laughing at ridiculous things doesn't mean that you agree with them.

What his motivation was in this isntance, I do not know, but I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. No, look at the post the Magistrate was replying to in that thread...

It was a different part of the thread than where he thought a deleted comment aimed at me was funny in that LOL!! sort of way. He wasn't laughing in this one - this is what he said to me:

"" I condemned a suicide bombing once when I first arrived and was pounced on by a 'pro-Israeli' poster for supposedly not using outraged enough sounding adjectives"

How could i have missed that monumental event??

Guess i'll have to wait for the next viewing of Haleys comet
before i'll ever hear that again."

Violet...

[Darranar]

37. I saw that...

and though I didn't see the deleted post, I was able to construct something of what it said.

I was talking specifically about the incident on this thread.

[bemildred]

38. "Outrage" contests are always stupid.

It's better not to start.
You have no obligation to outraged about anything, anytime, anywhere.

"Justified" contests are also stupid. The question is not whether
something is an "outrage" or not, or whether it is "justified" or
not, those are just opinions in any case, as one may easily see here.

What matters is: are the consequences of acts predictable, and in that
light, are they chosen wisely, or not?

[Darranar]

41. Here I think we disagree...

the consequences of such actions do indeed matter, but even if the consequences are unclear, or beneficial to the perpentrator, that does not neccesarily indicate that the action taken was the right means to accomplish the goal, or that the goal was "moral" in the eyes of us observers.

Where I do think we agree is that justification is a matter of opinion. Morality itself differs from person to person, and bias and subjectivity certainly can influence one's opinion on something from a moral perspective.

[bemildred]

46. I don't believe I said that the end justifies the means.

I said: are the means chosen wisely in terms of the desired outcome?
The key word is "wisely".
If one wants to be really clever one can examine whether the outcome
is chosen wisely.

[Darranar]

47. Well...

What exactly do you define as "wisely?"

I am not sure that I understand you completely.

[bemildred]

48. Hmmm ...

First, I suppose it's time for a repost of the Huxley quote:

Means determine ends; and must be like the ends proposed.
Means intrinsically different from the ends proposed achieve
ends like themselves, not like those they were meant to
achieve. Violence and war will produce a peace and an social
organization having the potentialities for more violence and
war.
A.H. Eyeless in Gaza

Then, I think that any morality that aspires to be more than
a form of mental masturbation has to be grounded in the observation
of cause and effect, and has to be guided by the conditions one
wishes to achieve. That is, that at bottom morality is a practical
matter, a morality that may not be expected to lead to things one
considers worthwhile is not worth a fig.

[Darranar]

50. So what you're saying...

is that moral concerns should only be concerns if they help fulfill a worthwhile end?

At first it seemed to me that this was simply another variation on the ends justify the means, but I think you have a worthwhile point there - one which seems both pragmatic and moral to me.

[bemildred]

51. If your ends are immoral how can your means fix that?

If you means are immoral what good is it that you meant well?
Ends and means cannot be separated.

These air strikes are immoral means (deliberate killing of
bystanders, children) for an immoral end (revenge).

All the babbling about "outrage" and "justification" is just
hot air and bullshit.

[Darranar]

53. Okay...

here I think we basically agree.

Though justification could be viewed as a summary of what you said above; did this act advance the cause it was supposed to advance? Is that cause itself a legitimate or moral cause? If so, then labeling it justified does not seem to be much hot air or bullshit to me.

[bemildred]

55. I don't believe I've been very clear.

Reading it over.
But it's been interesting.
Let's just leave it for now.
I'll chew it over some more.
:-)

[Aidoneus]

18. up to at least 8 now

the latest announced death being a doctor who was treating victims of the first rocket. cute, and thorough.

[bluesoul]

20. escalating violence

This won't be without consequences for Israel..

[Aidoneus]

22. hit that crowd after dark, no less

the time difference didn't register until now.. now the military can claim it was an accident due to the Sun being biased against Israel.

[Aidoneus]

40. 'Doctor killed as he helps wounded'

one last on this for today, unless something else comes up..

Doctor killed as he helps wounded
Tuesday 21 October 2003

Doctor Zain Shahin's first reaction to the Israeli air strike on Monday near the clinic where he worked was to rush out to treat the wounded.

It cost him his life.

Witnesses said the Palestinian doctor rushed to help the wounded lying around a car struck by a missile.

But he himself was hit by shrapnel when a second missile slammed into a crowd of people who had also come to see who they could save.

“Doctor Zain rushed to help, and he paid with his life trying to save the lives of others,” store owner Hisham Mohammad told Reuters. “He treated a few people on the ground before he...fell among them.”

Highest toll

Medical officials said eight people, all civilians, were killed and about 70 wounded in the airstrike, one of five carried out by Israel in the Gaza Strip on Monday.

--snip--

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/888329B4-386A-451B-8685-50D0B3F5386B.htm

[Darranar]

42. Eight civilians dead...

this was clearly a bad shot, and the shooter seems to have excercised little caution in shooting.

Not that that's new.

[Aidoneus]

43. sorry, misread you

.

[Darranar]

44. I don't know...

but stupidity and incompetence is not known to have limits.

This could well have been an example of one or both of the above.

It could also have been a purposeful and malicious act of murder.

Either way it was a despicable act.

[Aidoneus]

45. I read you wrong originally..

took a word or two the wrong way, I see what you meant now.

where's that reading comprehension link I gave don earlier? I seem to need it myself as well.. :)

[Loyal]

13. I'm still waiting, Darranar!

Where are those threads in which you condemned suicide bombings? Don't you wish you could go make some up right now... too bad they're timestamped. ;-)

[Darranar]

14. I condemned them for you on a thread..

and I'll do it again, now.

Suicide bombings are despicable attacks against innocent civilians. They are completely unjustified, and those who commit them and order their commiting are criminals and deserve to be condemned for it.

[Loyal]

26. No, Darranar

Not good enough. Of course you don't have to list them for me, there's no DU rule or anything, but your credibility is pretty much shot if you don't. You said that you could produce them... so produce them! :)

[Darranar]

30. The thread I was looking for...

was knocked into the archives.

Not being a member, I cannot search them.

[Forkboy]

35. His credibility and fairness are just fine

agree with Darranar or not there is no question about this.

[bemildred]

39. I personally don't feel that Mr. Loyal's opinion

of Mr. Darranar's credibility has much credibility.

[Loyal]

27. Hey,

maybe if you keep repeating that, you might actually believe it. I'm not counting on it.

[Darranar]

31. I do believe it...

as anyone who actually understands my posts would know.

Since you clearly have no intention to try to understand, I will leave it at that.

[Violet_Crumble]

32. A suggestion...

Try reading the forum instead of hounding Darranar about yr inability or unwillingness to read what has been a constant stance of his when he posts. If you haven't read Darranar condemn suicide bombings, then you mustn't read this forum much at all. When it comes to shot credibility, I'd say it's yrs in this particular exchange that's been shot up. Attitudes like yrs and drdons are the exact reason why people sometimes are loathe to express their views. This same thing as has been done to Darranar has been done to me to, and the only thing I can put it down to is an urge by some to demonise people and portray their views as something they're not rather than read what people have to say and take that as what the persons opinion is...

Violet...

[drdon326]

56. Ouch, Violet.

I see we're really spreading the love around.

[The Magistrate]

49. Mr. Darranar Is An Eminently Fair-Minded Commentator, Fellow

He has indeed made the statements he describes, and many times. We differ somewhat in our view of various Israeli military actions, but my view of these matters is rather cold-blooded, when all is said and done.

This thing seems on its face to be a criminal botch: when things like this are attempted, it is at the least essential to hit the target. There is also something to the suggestion this fellow could have been tried at some other time, and perhaps in a less crowded venue. It is likely, though, that there are limitations on the ability to strike, and opportunities taken as they present themselves. Certainly, if it were me in the shoes of the Hamas operative, it would be my practice to move about only in thronged places and times, both in the hope of passing unnoticed in the crowd, and in the resolve that, should worst come to worst, my death would be attended by severe propaganda damage to the enemy. Both sides of this conflict are conducted by ruthless, hard-eyed fellows, and that is easy to lose sight of for the more benevolent in discussing the question. Like revolution, it is not a tea party.

[Darranar]

52. I think you raise a few good points there...

my view of extra-judicial assasinations has never been that they are wholly wrong and immoral; what bothers me is the sloppiness at which they are carried out.

This attack, for instance, killed eight innocent people and missed the target. It was either an instance of tremendous incompetence or malice; which one I do not know, nor is it possible for us to find out.

At times, it also seems that attacks are carried out on bad intelligence; the number of times the IDF has killed a "leading Islamic Jihad member", for example, in Jenin is amazing. I think, though, that that is proof of nothing and evidence of little; guerilla groups are not known for being inflexible or unmoving. Fluidity is of an essence, and it certainly seems significantly possible that in the majority of these incidents the IDF has not misled or distorted to any vast extent.

All other matters about their justification and legitimancy aside, however, my largest problem with extra-judicial assasinations, and Israeli incursions as a whole, is their pointlessness in the long run. Though they may reduce for a short period of time the capability of various irregular groups to carry out strikes, in the long run it seems that they all too often encourage the same sorts of strikes they are carried out to prevent.

The recent case of the female suicide bomber whose brother was killed by the IDF is a good example; several reports seem to indicate that this was an act of revenge.

[bluesoul]

17. vice versa

I on the other hand would love to see you condemning Israel's crimes against civilians (such as Palestinian kids killed) without the excuses, justifications and whatever you can come up with to make them look less horrible or even blaming Palestinians themselves for IDF's actions..

[Loyal]

28. I always do that

I hardly ever come in I/P, but when I do, I am very fair in my remarks.

[tinnypriv]

54. In which case

I don't think you should embarass yourself anymore by attempting to beat up on Darranar, since by your own admission you cannot have read even a fraction of his posts.

"I hardly ever come in I/P"

[Loyal]

57. I don't POST a lot in I/P

I do read most of the threads, however, but usually I don't want to throw myself into a flamefest with Darranar, Violent, dr don, Herschel, and Muddle of the road. What usually happens in every thread, is that a story is posted, someone comments, and then the whole thing devolves into a flame war.

[Darranar]

58. Message deleted by poster

[tinnypriv]

59. Your correction is noted (n/t)

[Loyal]

60. Whatever.

:puke:

[Saudade]

21. "Terrorists"

"it really doesnt pay to be a terrorist."

Nor does it pay to be a military occupier for 36 years abusing natives in violation of international law and human rights.

It tends to destroy the economy and make one a pariah rogue state, completely isolated and loathed throughout the world and, due to one's consequent inability to compete economically on the world stage, renders said state completely dependant on the good will of single sugar daddy that might wake up one day soon.

[number6]

23. Right ON ! Saudade

more Israely terrorism against civilians....

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/20/international/middleeast/20CND-MIDE.html?hp

"Details were somewhat sketchy about the fourth attack tonight. The Israeli gunship fired two missiles at a car in the Nusseirat refugee camp, and Palestinian hospital officials said six people were killed and 70 were wounded" (70 WERE WOUNDED !!!)

Who in hell uses F-16's and Attack Helecopters to Bomb
houses in neigbor hoods.. is that F*CKING nuts or what ??!!

and by the way I condem suicide bombers too ...