Is Israel using 'disproportionate force' in Gaza?

[Fozzledick]

By DORE GOLD

Israel is currently benefiting from a limited degree of understanding in international diplomatic and media circles for launching a major military operation against Hamas on December 27. Yet there are significant international voices that are prepared to argue that Israel is using disproportionate force in its struggle against Hamas.

There are good reasons why initial criticism of Israel has been muted. After all, population centers in southern Israel have been the target of over 4,000 rockets, as well as thousands of mortar shells, fired by Hamas and other organizations since 2001.

The majority of those attacks were launched after Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in August 2005. Indeed, rocket attacks increased by 500% (from 179 to 946) from 2005 to 2006.

...

Proportionality and International Law

The charge that Israel uses disproportionate force keeps resurfacing whenever it has to defend its citizens from non-state terrorist organizations and the rocket attacks they perpetuate. From a purely legal perspective, Israel's current military actions in Gaza are on solid ground.

Under international law, Israel is not required to calibrate its use of force precisely according to the size and range of the weaponry used against it. Israel is not expected to make Kassam rockets and lob them back into Gaza.

When international legal experts use the term "disproportionate use of force," they have a very precise meaning in mind. As the president of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) in The Hague, Rosalyn Higgins, has noted, proportionality "cannot be in relation to any specific prior injury - it has to be in relation to the overall legitimate objective of ending the aggression."

In other words, if a state, like Israel, is facing aggression, then proportionality addresses whether force was specifically used by Israel to bring an end to the armed attack against it. By implication, force becomes excessive if it is employed for another purpose, like causing unnecessary harm to civilians.

...

It is far too early to definitely assess Palestinian casualties, but even if they increase, the numbers reported indicate that there was no clear intent to inflict disproportionate collateral civilian casualties.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1230456535626&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Idealism]

1. Okay guys case closed. The former Israeli ambassador has told us they aren't being overly genocidal.

Nothing to see here folks, move along. Don't look at those black bags over there

[Fozzledick]

2. The facts speak for themselves

[Idealism]

3. Opinions are not, by definition, facts

[bemildred]

4. "Israel is currently benefiting from a limited degree of understanding ... "

Is that like having increasingly declining international support?

[Fozzledick]

5. "There are good reasons why initial criticism of Israel has been muted."

I guess not.

[bemildred]

6. Hi.

I can hardly wait until people start saying what they really think.
:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

7. To Israel, Palestinians are only three fifths of a person, anyway

The kill ration is 100 Palestinians killed for each Israeli, and one of the dead Israelis was an Israeli Arab.

What can we expect from a country such as Israel that to this day claims that the officers and crewmen of the USS Liberty were not machine gunned by Israel but instead shot themselves to smear the glorious State of Ysrael.

[Shaktimaan]

20. where are you getting these "facts?"

100 Palestinians for each Israeli? What time frame is that using exactly? I've been reading about this conflict for years and I've never seen anything similar to that. And why in the world would it matter that one of them is an Israeli Arab?

Your 3/5 of a person thing and your Liberty facts are also both incorrect. Israel apologized for the Liberty incident. I assume that your 3/5 thing is a reference to blacks in america. I fail to see any connection.

[azurnoir]

8. Ah yes Israel and the law

Israel is if skilled at interpreting law international even turning against itself it is a special skill but it really makes no difference does it?
The Israeli government has qute skillfully used Hamas as the government in Gaza to make most adults in Gaza also Hamas here is how it works if you work in a hospital, school, any capacity from nurse to garbage collector you work for Hamas there for you are Hamas and no longer a civilian, go home after work your family is aiding and abetting Hamas and there by no longer civilian either see how easy no one is a civilian oh they will count a few kids cause it would be obvious but most this goes on without the knowledge of the American public in particular who hear Hamas and automatically picture someone in black masque with a rocket tucked in his belt or an AK-47 over his shoulder, the Israeli government would not have it any other way. So is it illegal no is it immoral and inhumane yes but those last two items do not count

[Fozzledick]

9. Of the 375 Palestinians killed, most were Hamas militants, Palestinian medical sources said Tuesday

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/gaza.israel.airstrikes/index.html

[IndianaGreen]

10. And you believe CNN quoting unnamed sources?

According to CNN, no more than 9,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed by US. The real figure exceeds 900,000.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Ma'an (Palestinian Media) has confirmed similar numbers in Gaza

[azurnoir]

16. You mean Fatah or PA media

the ones who stand to benefit the most from this? I checked Ma'an breifly they do confirm the number of dead at 375 but not much as to who those dead were.

link to Ma'an

http://www.maannews.net/en/

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Progressive Muslim quotes from them. Judge for yourself

Its based out of Bethlehem with an office in Gaza City.

http://www.maannet.org/
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=Content&Do=Aboutus


It seems to have the right kind of critics
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=1341
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1207238156388&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://web.israelinsider.com/Views/10835.htm

[Shaktimaan]

21. That's funny.

You clearly only believe those reports which conform to your predetermined opinion. The fact that you trust maan over every western, and even Palestinian source, is pretty solid evidence of your prejudice.

You'll believe any news report that's anti-Israel and refuse any agency that isn't.

Maan News. Lol! If Saddam's news reports had been translated into english you would be dredging them up as evidence against Israel.

[azurnoir]

12. Yup according to CNN right?

they would never ever back up propaganda right? I find it very hard to believe that Palestinian medical sources in Gaza would make such a statement as the wounded being Hamas Militants not to mention considering the circumstances it would be guessing at best they do not come with labelss you know

[bemildred]

11. A poll at The Agonist on this very question:

http://agonist.org/poll/gaza

[azurnoir]

13. small but interesting poll n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Expanded version of the same article with footnotes and references

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=1&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=378&PID=0&IID=2808&TTL=Did_Israel_Use_%E2%80%9CDisproportionate_Force%E2%80%9D_in_Gaza?

[Loudmxr]

18. Has anyone ever noticed what lousy shots Hamas rocket guys are??

I mean... really.... blind clerics may be excellent religious leaders but they suck at ordinance training. :smoke:

Methinks there is some exaggeration of Israeli damage.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. Its because they have to shoot and scoot

and that there are no observers to provide real time feedback.

The Israeli damage is real, its make the nightly news over there. As does the fact the the rockets from Gaza are reaching farther and farther north. Its one of the reasons that Israel is so intent on making them stop.

[Vegasaurus]

22. And the last 'truce" did exactly what Israel feared

gave Hamas and the militants a chance to smuggle in longer range more dangerous weapons.

Those that reached Beer sheba yesterday for example, and hit a kindergarten.

Thankfully there were no children inside, but it was a dangerous rocket, that could have killed dozens of kids.

Would an Israeli response have been warranted then? Do they have to wait until hundreds of people are killed before they are allowed to respond?

Those idiot militants don't value life at all, since they would rather have their civilians bombed than to stop shooting rockets.

[Fozzledick]

23. Also because Israel builds bomb shelters to protect their people

While Hamas deliberately puts their people in the line of fire to produce "martyrs" for propaganda.

According to one report the rocket launching henchmen are starting to get fed up with being used as cannon fodder to draw fire while the commanders hide in underground bunkers.

Hamas' most pressing problem now is morale. The top level of Hamas, government heads and commanders, including their "chief of staff" Ahmed Jabari and chiefs of divisions, battalions and companies, are hunkered down in underground bunkers, afraid to surface for fear of being struck down by Israel bombers alerted by Shin Bet intelligence spotters. Resentment of this is growing in Hamas ranks, including the missile crews who operate in the open and whose numbers have swelled the death toll rising now to 365. Civilians are also bitter at being forced to house operatives and missiles and exposing themselves to collateral damage.

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5811

[HeraldSquare212]

24. The weapons are generally pretty improvised, arent' they?

They have little to no aiming capability, which is part of the problem, really: if they could hit military targets exclusively, they might excite less outrage at the perceived targeting of civilians.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. No. Qassms are locally built from smuggled material. The other rockets are smuggled in from outside

And yes they can be aimed. They are artillery rockets. They have no onboard seekers (if they did, that would make them missiles). The way artillery is normally used, individual rounds are fired and then the launcher is adjusted until they land on desired target. From there its fire for effect. Hamas can't do that since there are no spotters. Since they have to move once they fire, there is no way to correct from shot to shot. Thus the term shoot and scoot.

Not surprisingly Israel has minimized massed military targets within rocket range. Hamas has been launching at known civilian only areas. The lack of Israeli casualties is not for lack of trying on the part of Hamas.

Another misconception is that they are home made fireworks and are not a real threat. That is nonsense. The Qassams are simple but are not improvised and they are not firecrackers. The standard military hand grenade that is used to blowup cars and pillboxes has 6.5 ounces of explosive. The Qassam has 22 pounds of explosives. The other rockets are factory made and fly further.

[HeraldSquare212]

27. Thanks. I didn't realize there was a distinction between rockets and missiles.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. I'm a geek with experience in these things

Many of the political arguments here are based in part on bad facts. Its guts their effectiveness since in many cases the errors are obvious to anyone with military or manufacturing experience, engineers to assembly line worktes. If "we" used just facts and built from there, it would be so much more effective.

[Vegasaurus]

30. Watch the news today

there is video of a guy walking down the street in Be'er Sheba and a rocket explodes right behind him.

Look at the damage.

These are no firecrackers or little nothing nuisances, as some people have described them.

They are industrial grade weapons, that can travel further and kill more people.

In case anyone is thinking these are little nothings, they need to really understand that these rockets are murderous weapons that could kill hundreds, easily, if they hit a school or place of business.

But, Israel is supposed to ignore them.

Sure.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Be'er Sheba and Ashdod are beyond Qassam and Grad range

Nothing has come out yet about if a new rocket has been smuggled in or its an upgrade to the Grad.

[breakaleg]

25. That's because in Israel, shock and fear on thier side equals dead on the other side.

[stranger81]

28. does a bear shi@t in the woods? [n/t]