UN: 25 percent of those killed in Gaza civilians

[Scurrilous]

UNRWA spokesman says at least a quarter of Palestinians killed in Israeli air strikes civilians, adding number 'may well be far higher'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3648058,00.html

<snip>

"At least 25 percent of Palestinians killed during Israel's massive offensive in the Gaza Strip have been civilians, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees said on Wednesday.

"A minimum of 25 percent of all those killed are civilians and it may well be far higher," UNRWA spokesman Christopher Gunness told AFP.

Since the start of the Israeli offensive on Saturday at least 390 Palestinians have been killed and another 1,900 wounded, according to Gaza medics. At least 42 of those killed have been children, they say.

Israeli warplanes continued to unload bombs on targets in Gaza early Wednesday. Powerful airstrikes caused Gaza City's high-rise apartment buildings to sway and showered streets with broken glass and pulverized concrete. Israel's ground forces on Gaza's border also used artillery for the first time."

[bunnies]

1. revolting.

From the article: "A Palestinian medic was killed and two others wounded when an Israeli missile struck next to their ambulance during a clash east of Gaza City, Palestinians said. The Israeli military said it did not know of the incident."

Know WHY they didnt 'know of the incident' ??

From another article: "The Ministry of Health said among those killed on Wednesday at dawn, was Dr Iyhab Al-Madhom and medic Mahmoud Abu Hassira. The Ministry said that the two were aiding injured people during shelling targeting Gaza City when an Israeli unmanned plane fired directly at them. Among the civilian targets that were shelled on Wednesday at dawn, was the oxygen refilling plant which is used by local hospitals in the Gaza Strip. "

http://www.imemc.org/article/58252

They dont even know who they're killing.

[bemildred]

2. I'd sure like to know how they arrive at these numbers.

I mean, what is a "civilian"? When you got a body lying dead somewheres, how do you distinguish what it was when it was alive? Are they in uniforms? It bothers me. I think a lot of this stuff is pulled out of someone's ass. I suspect that "civilian" == "women and boys under 12" or something like that. I suppose we ought to say "boys that look to be under 12".

[oberliner]

3. Slate: How Many Civilians Are Dead in Gaza?

Excerpt:

How did the U.N. determine which of the victims were combatants?

Gender and age. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency came up with the figure by sending emissaries to visit hospitals and other medical facilities. Under the Geneva Conventions and subsequent international law treaties, civilians are those who do not belong to the armed forces, militias, or organized resistance movements. But in Gaza City, UNRWA counted only female victims and those under the age of 18. North of the city, the agency attempted to get a more complete count by including adult men who were not wearing dark-blue police uniforms and whom community members identified as noncombatants.

At a Monday press conference, an U.N. staffer clarified that the count was only meant to give a credible minimum figure rather than a hard total. Nor did the agency intend to suggest that all men killed in Gaza City were combatants. Making clear distinctions between civilians and militants is difficult since Hamas (which is listed as a terrorist organization by the United States, the European Union, Israel, and other countries) engages in civic activities (like running schools) as well as military operations. Likewise, it's possible that some of the female victims and older children were Hamas combatants.

http://www.slate.com/id/2207637/

[bemildred]

5. Damn, can I call 'em or what?

I must say that using the age of 18 is better than I expected. And I disagree with the idea that if you are a cop in Gaza you are "military". But this argument goes nowhere.

[bunnies]

6. So, 100% of all adult males are 'combatants'.

wow. Minimum figure indeed.

[oberliner]

8. Not accordingly to this article - did you read the link?

North of the city, the agency attempted to get a more complete count by including adult men who were not wearing dark-blue police uniforms and whom community members identified as noncombatants.

[bunnies]

9. Yes I did. But those dont seem to be included in the 25%.

And in Gaza City, it seems, my statement is true.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

25. Would Israeli police officers be considered civilians?

[Statistical]

4. Why would it suprise anyone that 25% of casulties in a war are civilians?

Civilian deaths are a sad reality of ANY armed conflict.

Name one war in which civilian deaths were less than 25% of total deaths?

25% sadly is very low % of civilian casualties.

WWII: Total Killed: 75 Million. Civilians Killed: 50 Milllion. Military Killed: 25 Million.
TWO THIRDS of all deaths were civilians.

The low civilian to military target ratio at least shows a propensity by Israel to select targets of military value.

[bemildred]

7. "Suprise" is not the issue. Dead people who did nothing to deserve it is the issue.

You are right enough about the facts, war sucks. All the more reason to not do it.

[Statistical]

10. The 500,000 Japanese civilians didn't deserve to die either

The Allies didn't decide not to respond to Axis aggression simply because civilians would die.

Edited for sake of argument: (replaced Germany w/ Japan as argument remains the same).

[oberliner]

11. I would really love to be able to discuss this conflict without talking about Nazis

They seem to come up in every thread!

[Statistical]

12. Done. Changed it to Japan. Point stands civilians die in all wars.

[subsuelo]

13. You prepared to make that excuse for rockets killing Israelis?

[Statistical]

14. The rockets were fired blindly into cities NOT military targets

If the rocket attacks were aimed at military bases that would be one thing.

Ironically despite the evidence to the contrary many on DU "claim" Israel is "intentionally targeting civilians".
No Isreal is targeting military targets (launchers, weapon cache, weapons lab in university, command & control, key leaders). All valid targets in wartime. Civilians did die and that is an unfortunate but expected event in ANY military campaign.

The truth is Hamas IS intentionally targeting civilians. If you can't see the difference then you are simply choosing not to see.

[subsuelo]

15. You're the one that wrote "civilians die in wars"

Now we see that it's nothing more than a convenient excuse for Palestinian deaths

[Statistical]

16. Yup thats exactly it. Logic Fail. (n/t)

[Grimm]

18. About intent...

The truth is Hamas IS intentionally targeting civilians. If you can't see the difference then you are simply choosing not to see.

One thing that probably needs to be said is that a country can still be guilty of targeting civilians if they're reckless in their attack of military targets. For an extremely morbid example, if there was a Hamas member I wanted to kill across the street, I could use a knife to just kill that one person or use a mini-nuke and kill him and the kindergarten class a few metres away. Similarly, if Israel is using too much firepower to hit their targets and is thus reckless to the consequences of their actions, then the "collateral damage" defense becomes much weaker. A more concrete example would be when Israel was found reckless in their use of clusterbombs in Lebanon a few years ago.

Just to point out, the same logic applies to Hamas. Even if they are targeting military bases with their rockets, they're so inaccurate that they're reckless with regards to the consequences and are also guilty of attacking civilians.

Anyways, that just leaves the question of whether the force used by Israel is too much for their goal of stopping rocket attacks or whether it's "acceptable" (that being a relative term based on your tolerance for war/military action/violence/Israel). I really have no clue what side of the fence Israel's attack lands on.

[oberliner]

17. What is interesting is the way people react to civilian casualties around the world

For example, this incident from a few days ago:

Congo groups: 400 massacred on Christmas day

(CNN) -- A Catholic aid organization operating in the Democratic Republic of Congo and the country's government have accused Uganda-based rebels of massacring 400 civilians during Christmas celebrations last week.

The United Nations peacekeeping force in Congo put the death toll at 189 and said the Lord's Resistance Army rebels also abducted 20 children.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/africa/12/30/congo.xmas.massacre/index.html

More coverage here:

The archbishop of Dungu-Doruma, Monsignor Richard Domba, said that at least 150 people had been killed at a Christmas Day service at Faradje and later, 80 at Duru and at least 200 others at Doruma and in the surrounding villages.

"It is a dramatic situation that we are living through here," he said.

"They (the rebels) are indescribably barbarous and savage.

"They kill with machetes, axes and clubs. They burn people alive with their property in their homes."

The LRA also "captured young boys and girls whom they will conscript and force to work in their fields," he said.

In Bangadi near the border with Sudan 48 people died and in Gurba 213 people were killed. Approximately 6 500 people have found refuge in the area with the Catholic church, Caritas said.

"The rebels have committed terrible acts of violence," said the director of Caritas in Dungu-Doruma, Abbe Come Mbolingaba.

"They decapitated several people. In the villages hardly anybody is moving.

"Everyone is in psychological shock. The death toll could be above 400 because it is difficult to find all the bodies."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=68&art_id=nw20081231062503250C105212

I think there is one post about this on DU with a handful of replies.

[subsuelo]

19. Those attacks are horrific and there's no way to justify them

The difference is, when Palestinians are massacred - we always get the flood of excuses for the killings (for example "sh-- happens" and "civilians die in wars")

[oberliner]

20. You must admit

In spite of the epic horror of what is happening in Congo, the situation there is pretty much ignored here.

[LeftishBrit]

22. The point is, some conflicts create attention and some don't

When they get attention, you tend to get the excuses. (I've seen excuses made for Mugabe, quite recently).

When they don't get attention, they are simply ignored.

[subsuelo]

24. Part of what gets my attention re: Israel/Palestine *are* the excuses

I'm committed to not justifying *any* innocent deaths - what amazes me is how tremendously difficult it is for others to do the same.

[bemildred]

23. What do you want from me? Are we just supposed to just say fuck it?

I get so tired of people who say evil is OK because it happens all the time.
:puke:

[EFerrari]

26. This is a false statistic. They are counting all the men as militants.

That 25% number is the known dead that are WOMEN AND CHILDREN.

[stranger81]

27. Exactly. By that calculus, there's no such thing as an Israeli civilian

since men & women alike are all called into military conscription at one point or another. Does that mean all Israelis are fair game?

[yeswecanandwedid]

21. Supposedly Hamas puts it's missile launchers in civilian neighborhoods. So..

Supposedly Hamas puts it's missile launchers in civilian neighborhoods. So, I'm not surprised. Blame Hamas. Play with fire, you're gonna get burned.

At least that is what I read here:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/dec/30/its-time-once-more-to-blame-the-jews/