Seth Freedman: The recklessness of Hamas

[shira]

The recklessness of Hamas
Those who have condemned Israel for falling into a trap ought to be just as vocal in condemning Hamas for setting such a trap

The last time I visited the embattled town of Sderot, I encountered a furious young resident who spat out his solution for his community's plight. "We have to kill all the militants ", he declared. "It's the only way to bring quiet back to the town. They had the chance to stop the rockets after we pulled out of Gaza, but they chose to carry on. I know they're suffering in Gaza too, but that doesn't excuse helping the terrorists attack us – they bring it on themselves".

What those militants sowed over the last few years, in the shape of thousands of rockets and mortars fired over the border at Israeli civilians, they reaped yesterday as the might of the Israeli air force came crashing down on Gaza. For all that I regularly sound off about almost every facet of the Israeli occupation and the government's policies towards the Palestinians, I struggle to see what option Israel's leaders had, other than to take the kind of action that they took this weekend.

As soon as the six-month ceasefire ended, with Hamas refusing to lay down their weapons and resuming their attacks on Israeli civilians, it was plain that Israel was being invited, if not provoked into, an operation to cut the head off the hydra. Hamas knew that with tens of thousands of Israeli men, women and children within range of the Kassam rockets, public opinion would demand action to protect those in the line of fire.

Indeed, you would be hard-pressed to find an Israeli who thinks that Israel was wrong to respond to the rockets in the way it did today. I suspect that Israel's response was no different to that which citizens of any other state would demand of their leaders in similar circumstances

<snip>

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/28/gaza-attacks-israel

[shira]

1. Freedman gets it!

A quote from Seth in his comments section:

"...just that he was missing half the picture in his assessment. in his rush to play the numbers game, he utterly overlooked the fact that – for all its ills – the israeli government at least cares about its own people, hence the early warning systems, bomb shelters and separation of military and civilian centres.

hamas, on the other hand, actively seek to put their own civilians lives in danger, since it bolsters their cause to have dead palestinian babies plastered across the front of newspapers, and the ends always justify the means as far as their ultimate goal is concerned."

[shira]

2. more from Seth in his comments to this article

"i genuinely hate the way israel goes about most things in terms of the occupation, etc - as you yourself know from reading my 200+ articles here. but to pretend that hamas are not significantly responsible for the latest developments is utterly unacceptable and a complete lie."

===================================

"yeah, that's the spirit. until you've watched your husband/wife/child be killed by a rocket, you should probably keep your asinine comments to yourself instead of embarrassing yourself so publicly here.

nothing i experienced during my active service in the army compared with my two visits to sderot in terms of fear - had you been there for yourself and seen first hand how terrified the populace is on a daily basis, you'd know how ridiculous your comment sounds.

that doesn't mean life for gazans is any less horrific - and anyone who's read my pieces knows i couldn't be more critical of israel's behaviour in terms of how they treat the palestinians under their control. however, this is one occasion where israel has to defend its citizens in the firing line, and to demand that they don't is a callous and cruel way to dismiss the suffering of thousands of civilians in the south of the country."

====================================

[Vegasaurus]

3. Seth is right on

Israel can be blamed for much, but not for how Hamas has treated its citizens, and how it goaded Israel and is still goading Israel.

[oberliner]

4. A strong critic of Israel who is also willing to be critical of Hamas

I wonder if he is in the region or back in the UK.

[The Magistrate]

5. Mr. Freedman Makes Some Sound Points, Ma'am

[LeftishBrit]

6. I like Seth Freedman - he is prepared to attribute responsibility to both sides

[Hannah Bell]

8. 400 deaths to 4. "They're both guilty". That's what's we call "balance".

[davidinalameda]

9. I guess attempted murder by the Hamas thugs doesn't matter to you

all those rocket attacks are just fire works?

[Hannah Bell]

10. I typically only shoot only ONE neighbor, not 400, when someone throws

fireworks into my yard that don't kill anyone.

I'm a softy that way.

[LeftishBrit]

11. Well, both sides are guilty long-term of pursuing violence instead of peace

I actually disagree with Seth Freedman here, in that I think this action by Israel was wrong and excessive and likely to be counterproductive. However, he is no doubt right that 'Israel's response was no different to that which citizens of any other state would (at least at first) demand of their leaders in similar circumstances'. That doesn't mean that the citizens would be right, even from the point of view of their own long-term interests. But hawkish attitudes, especially under any sort of attack, are not restricted to Israel.

[Hannah Bell]

7. But killing 400+ in response to rocket attacks that killed 4 in the last year

25 in the last 7 years: not reckless. Totally understandable, rational, civilized.

Seth gets it!!!

[shira]

16. there is no comparison b/w killing civilians and killing combatants

It's moronic to compare numbers of dead in this conflict. If 10 Taliban terrorists were hellbent on killing one baby, the killing of the 10 Taliban to prevent one civilian death is always justified and legal. No one in their right mind would make the dumb comparison of 10:1 killed in such a scenario.

[Hannah Bell]

18. Oh, those 435 people were all "combatants," now?

Gee, some of them are awfully young.

[shira]

20. more than 80% are

and this being a war, that ratio of combatants to civilians may just be the best ever in a time of war. Civilians killed are always regrettable in war, but let's not pretend most of those 435 are innocents.

[Hannah Bell]

24. They wear little signs saying "I'm a rocket-launching militant," I suppose?

Even your silly "80%" still gives 90 deaths for every one israel suffered.

That's a massacre, not a "war". It's called "shooting fish in a barrel" when you've got the "enemy" locked behind "security fences".

exodus says "eye for eye," not 90 eyes for one.

[shira]

26. so

in your little world, 10 taliban kill one baby....instead of taking out those 10 before they do more damage, we should wait until they kill 9 more babies and then it's fair.

[Hannah Bell]

27. In my world, people who erect straw men

are immediately arrested & tortured with feathers.


In SEVEN YEARS, the big bad Palestinian rockets killed TWENTY-FIVE Israelis.

Israel's killed thousands in response, & apparently their plan is to continue til doomsday.

You tell me they know where the "terrorists" are, to such a degree that they can telephone all the non-terrorists in the neighborhood to tell them they're going to drop a bomb - yet they can't go in & arrest them in a 140m2 territory where they control checkpoints, the water & power supply, & the airspace? Plus outgun them by a factor of hundreds?

It's delusionary.

[oberliner]

29. There aren't any checkpoints inside Gaza

The Israelis pulled out of Gaza several years ago. There are no settlements there - no checkpoints, no Israeli police force to arrest anyone.

[Hannah Bell]

33. I believe border checkpoints that allow one to seal the territory from the outside

world = "checkpoints".

I believe Israel is able to enter Gaza with tanks & soldiers & bomb it from the sky at will. Since it has done so a few times since it supposedly "liberated" the space.

Like, this December. And November.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5435297.ece

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2008/11/israeli-tanks-in-gaza.html

& 2007:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/10/AR2007121000703_pf.html

& 2006:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch?q=israeli+tanks++gaza+2006&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8

etc.

[oberliner]

37. They don't have checkpoints inside Gaza

You suggested that there were checkpoints and Israeli officers inside Gaza who could simply arrest those who were launching rockets. This is not accurate.

They've had to take the actions you describe in order to try to prevent planned attacks.

[Hannah Bell]

49. whatever, dude. you absolutely don't want to engage the point.

if they can go in at will to kill people, they can just as easily go in to capture people.

[EFerrari]

12. Freedman is apparently unaware of the entire Israeli peace movement.

[azurnoir]

14. No he is unaware and note the date of the article

there is a more recent one

[EFerrari]

15. "Indeed, you would be hard-pressed to find an Israeli who thinks that Israel was wrong "

?

There have been protests in Israel and the refuseniks have been putting out press releases.

[shira]

17. so Israel should have done nothing?

Hamas refuses to extend the ceasefire, fires far more rockets, and Israel is to just take it, wait until there is a big tragedy, and still do...........nothing?

[Hannah Bell]

19. Maybe they could have just gone in & arrested some people?

Since they say they know where they live, you know.

[shira]

21. you think some arrests would stop the rockets?

and then they could be traded later on in some prisoner swap, right? presto, no more rockets.

[Hannah Bell]

22. oooh, those incredibly lethal "rockets".

25 dead in seven years, it must be a world's record of ineffectiveness.

israel, on the other hand - highly effective. but not at "stopping the rockets," just at killing people.

they've been doing it for seven years, you'd think they'd get a clue. unless, of course, the purpose of the "rockets" is to justify the response.

[shira]

23. you want to try living under those conditions?

with that very real threat of rockets dropping all over your area, you and your kids constantly in fear? Now 500,000 Israelis are within range.

no biggie, right?

A kindergarten was hit just the other day. Luckily, no one was there at the time. Should Israel wait until school is in session and then ask your permission to actually do something about it?

[Hannah Bell]

25. no, i'd rather live in occupied territory, under checkpoints, with people

bombing me from the sky & cutting the water supply whenever they deem it necessary. For 50 years, it'd be so nice.

I know it makes no difference what anyone says. In your world, 435 for 1 is rational. Unless, of course, someone does it to you.

So I leave this useless discussion with this: In SEVEN YEARS, precisely TWENTY-FIVE Israelis have died from Palestinian rocket attacks.

In ONE WEEK, Israel's "response" killed FOUR HUNDRED THIRTY-FIVE PEOPLE & STILL KILLING.

Multiply by seven years & see what you get.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

30. It's absolute, unconditional racism...

on the part of Israel and those who support it.

[shira]

38. it's racism to try to kill Hamas combatants?

before they deliberately kill innocents? I understand caring for the welfare of innocent civilians, but why try defending and sticking up for the vast majority killed who are unrepentant, Hamas terrorist combatants? They're just as bad for Palestinians as Israelis - actually worse. Those who really care for Palestinians should be for taking out Hamas warmongering combatants.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. It's racist to expect Palestinians to lay down and accept the crumb they are offered...

It's racist to believe that Palestinians aren't entitled to the same human and political rights as Americans and Israelis.

IMO, it's racist to consign Palestinians to an enternity of occupation in order to have a Jewish majority Israel, "just in case..."

[shira]

42. it's disingenuous

to state that Hamas speaks for all Palestinians.

It's disingenuous to state that Palestinians aren't better off in almost every way with Hamas out of control.

It's disingenuous to state that Palestinians would enjoy the same human and political rights as Americans and Israelis while under the boot of Hamas.

====

on edit:
Let's at least admit Hamas is terrible for both Israelis and Palestinians. Or is this simply a case of what is good for Israel (destroying Hamas) must be in some way bad for Palestinians, so therefore you're against it, despite the havoc Hamas has wreaked upon Palestinians?

[Vegasaurus]

44. I would seem Shira,

that some people who claim to care about Palestinians really don't.

How else could they continue to support Hamas, when Hamas has clearly made the lives of Palestinian citizens so miserable.

Hamas is the worst thing that could have happened to the palesitnians.

Way worse than Israeli occupation.

If this is "national liberation", G-d help the Palestinians.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

45. I don't think Hamas does speak for all.

I'm saying the Zionist expectation that Palestinians should be satisfied with the crumb, and go away quietly, is racist.

[oberliner]

43. Then Hamas is racist

Because they certainly do not believe that Palestinians are entitled to the same political rights as Americans and Israelis.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

46. Sexist and homophobic, but not racist. nt

[oberliner]

48. I don't think Israel's actions towards the Palestinians are racist either

I think that neither the Hamas approach to political rights for Palestinians nor the Israeli approach to the same is based on racism.

[oberliner]

32. Hamas has used means other than rocket attacks to kill Israelis over the past seven years

We are nearing the seven year anniversary of the Cafe Moment suicide bombing which killed 11 people. Hamas claimed responsibility.

Just a few weeks after that was the Passover Massacre - the suicide bombing at a Passover Seder for senior citizens held in a hotel in Netanya. 30 people were killed in that Hamas attack.

About two months after that, 19 people were killed in a suicide bus bombing carried out by Hamas.

Another bus bombing a few months after that killed 9 people - Hamas claimed responsibility.

Those are just a few examples of the numerous terrorist attacks against Israel that Hamas is responsible for over the past seven years.

[Hannah Bell]

35. the topic is this latest attack, which supposedly was retaliation for rocket attacks

that killed no one.

if you want to enlarge the discussion to absolute kill ratios, then israel still wins the prize, at something like 5 to 1.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

it looks worse than five to one now. it's been awhile since i checked the stats.

[oberliner]

36. I do not understand the "kill ratio" argument

I certainly don't want to enlarge that discussion, because it does not make any sense to me.

In any case, I think the rocket attacks are one of a series of tactics that Hamas has used over the years to kill Israelis.

Incidentally, I oppose this Israeli attack against Gaza. I believe that a diplomatic solution could have been found if both sides worked harder to pursue one.

[Hannah Bell]

39. you're the one who enlarged the discussion to include "other ways

hamas kills".

look, most of what i initially read in the paper was condemnation of the rocket attacks. so i checked to find out how many had been killed in the terrible rocket attacks & found the answer was ZERO. They never mention that. They babble on about the rocket attacks like folks are dying right & left. but it's ZERo.

So that justifies this fresh hell HOW?

[oberliner]

41. My point is that the action Israel is taking against Hamas has to do with more than rocket attacks

Israel views Hamas as a terrorist organization. The attacks I cited should provide you with evidence that Hamas has indeed carried out numerous acts of terror against Israel.

Both Israel and Hamas, I believe, have been looking for an excuse for a major clash and I think that the recent Hamas rocket barrage were Hamas's way of goading Israel into just such a clash - and Israel was more than willing to abide.

That so many innocent people have died as a result of this struggle is absolutely tragic.

Both sides could have chosen different approaches, but neither has done so.

[EFerrari]

51. My question was about the peace movement. n/t

[azurnoir]

47. My post should have read

he is NOT unaware my bad:blush:

[EFerrari]

50. Oh, that's all right It was late. I should reread the post.

:hi:

[azurnoir]

52. I do that frequently leaving out small words

and proof reading does not work well either I swear my brain just fills them in.

[azurnoir]

13. I found Mr Freedman's somewhat more recent

and a bit more even habded article also interest, what a surprise you would choose the older one of the two this one is from December 31

Salt in the wounds

Despite the hostile reaction my last article received, I don't count myself among the temporarily-converted. While I still think that Israel had a duty to act to prevent rockets raining down on its towns, I have never wavered from my belief that both the occupation of the West Bank and the siege on Gaza are evil actions, which can only rub more salt into the gaping wound.

Extremism flourishes in a culture of violence and hostility, as has been witnessed time and again in the region. I found as much the other day – and, when my conversation with a resident of Gaza was interrupted by the roar of an incoming Israeli missile, it was easy to understand why Gaza refugees have swung just as hard to the right as the entrenched citizens of Sderot.

She felt "totally hopeless", she said, especially with her brother and his family in the line of Israeli fire in Gaza. "He called me today and told me that their house was like a swing last night, no one slept, the children were crying non-stop – no one expected this level of aggression." Her message to the people of Sderot was simple: the Kassams won't stop until the siege on Gaza is lifted and people are allowed to live a normal, free life there. "Pressure your government," she urged. "Because if Gazans have good lives, they won't even think of sending over rockets.

Long after the gunships and the rocket squads have laid down their arms, the debate over culpability will continue to rage throughout the region and the wider world. In the meantime, anyone sympathising with Gazans' siege-mentality support of Hamas ought to apply the same view towards the similarly-beleaguered residents of Israel's south. Both sides are human, neither are angels – and if there is ever to be a way out of the impasse, it requires an end to viewing the conflict as simply a matter of black or white.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/dec/31/israelandthepalestinians-middleeast

[oberliner]

28. Both sides are human, neither are angels

– and if there is ever to be a way out of the impasse, it requires an end to viewing the conflict as simply a matter of black or white.

Well said.

[LeftishBrit]

34. Very true!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

31. Freedman needs to "visit" embattled Jabalya.