Fiddling while Gaza burns

[ProgressiveMuslim]

What does it take to unite against the invasion, asks Khaled Amayreh in Ramallah

Like all Palestinians and Arabs, the Palestinian Authority (PA) reacted angrily to the sustained Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip. PA President Mahmoud Abbas and other Palestinian officials used terms such as "carnage" and "criminal aggression" to describe the unprecedented Israeli attacks on Gaza, saying that this was the time for Palestinians to unite in the face of the Israeli onslaught. Other Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) officials said that the Israeli onslaught in Gaza was not only against Hamas but against the Palestinian people as a whole.

However, some PA officials, like Tayyeb Abdel-Rahim and Nimr Hammad, a senior advisor to Abbas, voiced a degree of gloating over the bombing, with the former expressing the hope that the forces of Fatah would soon re-conquer Gaza and the later blaming Hamas for "this tragedy." However, as the enormity of the sustained Israeli bombing became clear and the death toll grew rather dramatically, statements critical of Hamas receded and nearly disappeared as it became clear that such remarks would seriously harm the image of Fatah.

Hamas described Abdel-Rahim's remarks as "conspicuously treasonous". "Those who hope to return to Gaza aboard Israeli tanks are traitors," said Hamas's representative in Beirut, Osama Hamdan.

Earlier, Abbas blamed Hamas for not heeding his advice to renew the erstwhile tacit ceasefire understanding. In a joint press conference with Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul-Gheit in Cairo on 28 August, Abbas said he had made direct and indirect contacts with Hamas's leaders prior to the start of the bombing campaign, advising them to renew the truce, but to no avail.

Abbas said he was making intensive contacts with the "influential capitals of the world" for the purpose of getting them to pressure Israel to stop its aggression. On Monday, 29 December, Abbas called for an urgent meeting of all Palestinian factions, including Hamas, in his office in Ramallah to discuss ways and means to put an end to the "difficult situation facing our brothers in Gaza."

The meeting did take place and it was decided to send a shipment of badly-needed medicine to the Gaza Strip via the UN apparatus operating in the occupied territories. Hamas and the Islamic Jihad boycotted the meeting, accusing Abbas of "lacking in seriousness".

One Hamas leader from the Gaza Strip, Fawzi Barhoum, charged that Abbas was taking superficial steps which amount to calling on Hamas to surrender to Israel. Some Hamas leaders in the West Bank urged Abbas to prove his sincerity about national unity by releasing all political prisoners in PA jails.

The call for desensitising the Fatah-Hamas showdown by releasing political prisoners in both Gaza and the West Bank was also echoed by leaders of other Palestinian factions and also by journalists. Nonetheless, Abbas and the senior PA leadership continued to insist that Hamas's prisoners were being incarcerated for "criminal" rather than political reasons.

Hamas calls the PA rationale for detaining hundreds of its supporters "scandalously mendacious". Earlier this month, Ismail Haniyeh, the prime minister of the Gaza-based Hamas government challenged Abbas to release political prisoners. "If you release these prisoners today, you will see us in Cairo tomorrow," he said, referring to the Egyptian- mediate national unity talks.

Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti, who is imprisoned in Israel for leading the Al-Aqsa Intifada, has also called for a meeting of all Palestinian factions, including Hamas, in two weeks in order to resolve the Fatah-Hamas rift. According to Qaddura Fares who frequently visits Barghouti in his jail cell, the popular Fatah leader warned that it would be really catastrophic for the Palestinians and their just cause to fail to rebuild national unity in light of "the war of extermination" on Palestinians Israel has been carrying out. "If we don't succeed to restore national unity now, when will we succeed," Barghouti reportedly asked.

To be sure, Barghouti's feelings are shared by most Palestinians, including Hamas leaders. However, it is uncertain whether the Palestinian government, which is responsible to Abbas, would allow such a meeting to take place. Sceptics argue that there are certain elements associated with the "American-Israeli trend" within Fatah who are not interested in "rehabilitating Hamas" and "enabling it to become once again a legitimate part of the Palestinian political system.

Facing boiling indignation at Israeli crimes in Gaza, Palestinian negotiator and Fatah leader Ahmed Qurei said he was suspending all talks with Israel. "There are no talks any way, and we can't really hold talks while they are committing this war of extermination against our civilians in Gaza," said Qurei.

read on...
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2009/928/re32.htm

[sellitman]

1. Stop the Quassams.

Israel is reacting to them.

Pardon the expression but "its not rocket science".


When Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist or more moderate Palestinians realize the way to peace means to stop provoking their enemy then, and only then will Peace have a chance.

[Vegasaurus]

2. Militants are apparently too stupid to understand simple cause and effect nt

[chimpymustgo]

8. It's really racism at the heart of much of this, isn't it? Wow. Defending mass murder.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Israel's cruel Occupation of Palestine is the cause

everything else is an effect

[sellitman]

12. Gaza wasn't occupied.

Israel left and even grabbed their deceased from cemeteries on the way out. Their bombardment of Israel's civilians caused this reaction.

No country in the world would let the missiles continue to fall.

Hamas brought this upon themselves.

Time for the Palestinians to change leadership. When they elected Terrorists they got what they voted for.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whosinpower]

5. Let me see if I have this straight

If Hamas stops the rockets - then Israel will stop the blockade? That did not occur during the six month ceasefire. Targeted assasinations continued, collateral damage continued. If anything - the blockade tightened - as a protest to the people of Gaza for electing Hamas in the first place?

Israel pulls out of Gaza, blockades the region, and increases settlements in the West Bank - with the intent of making sure a viable palistinian state never exists - and you are suggesting that it is up to the palistinians to stop provoking Israel?

This is what it comes down to, in my mind, and in simple terms.
Israel needs more land to be a viable state. The Likud Party has never been in favour of a two state solution - because there is not enough land for both states to be viable. There simply is not enough. The small settlements scattered across the WestBank are an incursion to ensure that the palistinians never hold a big enough, unified block of land to be sustainable. The Likud party admits this and states it would cost about $250 000 per settler to relocate back -far too costly - end of story.

What exactly are the palistinians supposed to do? Stop the rockets? OK. But how does that help their position when Israel constantly undermines their ability to exist. Where are they supposed to go? If only they had a reasonable voice - I understand this, but the actions of the Israeli's are positioning themselves to a one state solution without any say, input or suggestions by the palistinian people. When hundreds of your neighbors are killed, thousands injured - it would be utterly impossible for them to unite under a peacemaker voice. It would never happen. And when Hamas collapses, another faction will take over - and the Israeli's will not be any more conciliatory than now - because it comes down to economic reality - they require the land to be viable. That is the cold hard truth. All this fighting and security rhetoric comes down to this key point. Palistinians are fighting for the land that they had; Israeli's are fighting to keep the land they hold. If Israel allowed a right of return to the palistinian refugees - their civilian population would dilute the jewish heritage that they are trying to build their nation upon.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. You do not have it straight

Gaza was taken over by a coup after the election where Hamas won the most seats but not the popular vote.

During the hudna (so called ceasefire) rockets continued to be fired.

Hamas does not mean Gazans or Palestinians. When Hamas falls, the PA will resume control of Gaza. Israel has said it will work with them.

There have always been serious doubts about the two state solution being viable. This was has not changed that. Even some of the radicals here are suggesting single state with full and immediate suffrage.

[whosinpower]

19. excuse my skepticism, but

The strength of the PA will not be better after Hamas falls - Abbas leadership is on very shaky ground - and Fatah is going to be seen as enablers of the Israeli invasion/incursion.

Nor does negotiating with the PA encourage a viable two state solution when the Likud party has worked actively to ensure that no solution would work.

This is positioning to be acceptable to a one state solution, with no future to the palistinian people - and that can never lead to any sort of sustainable peace. Even if Hamas ceases to exist, the Israeli's have set Abbas and the PA as a powerless negotiator.

And, given that in past history, Mossad encouraged the creation of Hamas as a counter to Fatah, and a secular two state solution, I have no faith that they would negotiate in good faith - even if no rockets fell, and no suicide bombers.

We can talk all day long about how Hamas will not recognize Israel's right to exist - but Israel, by its actions, has never acknowledged the right to the formation of a palistinian state, and has worked diligently to ensure that never occur - with support of divisive factions within the palistinians, with their settlement policies, with their wall. Destroying Hamas will not change any of that.

And this - still all comes down to one thing - land that the Israeli's want/need/desire for their own, and land that the palistinians are fighting for.

[TomClash]

6. When Fatah recognized Israel's right to exist it got nothing in return

The settlements only grew - no state was created and Israel presented a laundry list of demands and conditions that even the Americans blanched at. So why should Hamas recognize Israel?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. Yes it did...it got legitimacy. Fatah currently leads the PA, the recognized voice of the

Palestinians. Hamas engineered a coup in Gaza and refused to participate in elections since.

[TomClash]

17. Complete nonsense

Fatah gave up the only card they had for nothing. Fatah already had "legitimacy" at the time it recognized Israel. They never got remotely close to a Palestinian State or even a worthwhile peace agreement.

[sellitman]

20. Fatah wasn't the only group in existance.

What possible good is it to bargain with one Palestinian group when the other won't even recognize your right to exist and keeps lobbing missiles at your civilians?

Stop with the bullshit.

[TomClash]

27. Israel supposedly "bargained" in 1999 and 2000

:eyes:

What possible good is it to recognize Israel when that will do nothing to end the occupation, the blockades, the settlement expansion and repeated attacks and incursions? Even a child can see how this turns into an endless, vicious cycle.

If you smell bullshit, it isn't coming from me.

[sellitman]

28. Israel was ready for a Palestinian State a long time ago.

Remember Camp David?

Your selective history is astounding.

Why the fuck did Israel give up Gaza?

It takes two sides to make peace and when the Palestinians can't even make peace among themselves how the fuck are they going to make it with a people they won't even recognize? How much land should be returned to stop the missiles and suicide attacks? How much land should be given up just for peace talks to start?



That isn't how you negotiate. It takes two sides and Israel has made step after step only to be hit with more and more missiles.

[TomClash]

30. What Bush-like crap

Your lack of knowledge is what is astounding. Read a damn book and do some thinking outside of the Holy Zionist box. Camp David did not come close to creating a Palestinian state. Read the reflections of Carter and Begin on it. Camp David's principal purpose was peace with Egypt. Is that not obvious almost three decades later - if you don't think so read Begin's autobiography.

Israel's 2005 withdrawal was a joke, a military maneuver - few soldiers wanted to serve there. It is a pain in the ass to govern, much harder than the West Bank. If you traveled to Gaza City you would understand why.

After "withdrawal," Israel continued to maintain complete control over the air and sea space of the Gaza Strip, severly limiting the right to travel. It controlled the joint Gaza Strip-West Bank population registry, which means Israel got to decide who is a “Palestinian resident” and who is a “foreigner.” If you wanted to move you had to get Israeli permission. Israel continued to control the Rafah border crossing. To this day, Israel continues to maintain complete control of the movement of people and cargo between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. As far as trade is concerned, Israel controls all three crossing points in and out of Gaza and routinely closes the crossings to any trade, causing severe food and other shortages in Gaza.

Israel tolerated and even tactily promoted Hamas for a long time - when it was convenient and it didn't want to negotiate with Fatah. Hamas is in part blowback for Israel's divide and conquer strategy. Terrorism is Israel's excuse not ot recognize any right of return or to cede arable land for the settlement land it has stolen.

[wellst0nev0ter]

31. Yeah, And Ehud Barak Wouldn't Even Speak With Arafat

Those talks were doomed to failure from the start.

[sellitman]

32. Arafat wouldn't acknowledge Israels right to exist either.

Arafat made the same mistake Hamas has.

[wellst0nev0ter]

35. Actually, Arafat Did Declare Israel's Right To Exist In 1993

http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/sourcefiles/1993-Exchange-Letters-Rabin-Arafat.pdf

Try again.

[sellitman]

36. The PNC never approved that change though.

On top of that Fatah didn't sign on either.

Just like today their factions can't agree on anything. Worse still they are killing each other over their disagreements.

Hard to make peace with 1/2 a foe.

[wellst0nev0ter]

37. But You Said Arafat Never Recognized Israel's Right To Exist

And you were clearly wrong so backtracking or fingerpointing at other factions is not going to help your case. Besides, I'm unaware that Israel recognizes Palestine's right to exist as an independent state as of yet, so the point is ultimately moot.

[sellitman]

42. If the declaration was never changed your point is the moot one.

Getting all Palestinian factions to change their charter in action not words has proved to be an impossible task.

You get the PLO to agree the Fatah kills more Jews, you get Fatah to agree and Hamas terrorizes and kills more Jews.

Get the Palestinians to actually all agree on peace and they will get their State and Peace.

Until then Israel will defend it's citizens no matter what.

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. Well, Like The Israeli's Stance On Palestinian Statehood

The changing of the charters to recognize Israel is incumbent on Israel fulfilling its terms of peace. It was the same with Egypt and Jordan when Israel signed peace treaties with them. But since you and the rest of the hardened supporters of Israel and its actions are intent of holding on to any excuses to forging a sustainable peace with the Palestinians, despite the fact that bombing the Palestinians has never worked in the past, I guess I won't begrudge you your thirst for more violence and bloodshed.

[wellst0nev0ter]

29. Israel Broke The Ceasefire First

period, end of sentence.

The only way you could blame Hamas is if you count the scattered attacks carried out by unaffiliated groups during the months between June and November, but regular Israeli army personnel shot first during the so-called ceasefire.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. "scattered attacks carried out by unaffiliated groups" Is that what the excuse was?

It wasn't us, Hamas, lauching rockets as Israel, it was those other guys. After the coup, that lie quit being believable by anyone.

Yes the tunnel incursion was the largest, it was by far the first.

You do understand the difference between a ceasefire and hudna?

[wellst0nev0ter]

47. Everybody Calls It A Ceasefire

those defending Israeli official violation of the ceasefire tries to call it something else. Yes, it would be nice if Hamas were to stop every single attack from happening. But if they were able to do that, I want the whole security apparatus to replace this nation's police force since they can prevent all murders and other violent crimes too.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. Except of course Hama leadership...its well documented here and elsewhere

Another key item is that the rockets, especially the Grads were not available to anyone other than Hamas. Same with the launching sites. Hamas controlled the sites as well.

Don't even consider the "rockets were small and of no consequence..." That has been set straight some time ago

[wellst0nev0ter]

49. It's Been Clearly Documented That Both Islamic Jihad And Al Aqsa Has Fired Rockets

And no, I've never and I am not going to say that the Qassam rockets and the likes are bottle rockets since they can kill people and damage buildings.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. In the last 6 months? Since Gaza was taken over in a coup by Hamas?

When?

[wellst0nev0ter]

52. Read The Contemporary News Reports, Especially After The Ceasefire Started

I'm not going to do your research for you.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

53. The question is to you about what timeframe you meant

Since the coup, any rockets from Gaza were launched with the permission of Hamas

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. No, When Al Aqsa Fired Their Rockets During The Ceasefire

Hamas was quick to condemn them (I haven't heard anything about any arrests, at least in the Western media). And yes, the timeline is during the first month of the ceasefire

[sellitman]

43. Unafilliated groups my ass.

First there was the PLO

Then there was Fatah

Now there is Hamas

They all are affiliated.

Get them to actually want peace and guess what they will then have it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

46. Actually, Hamas Was Initially Supported By Israel To Be A Counterweight

To Arafat's group. So it's not as simple as you put it.

[Sezu]

4. The easiset way to end a war is to lose it.....Orwell.

Hamas could sue for peace like war losers usually do. Think they will? HA!

[Fozzledick]

7. Um, excuse me, but GAZA ISN'T BURNING

If any of your vitriolic accusations against Israel were true, then Gaza WOULD be burning, like Dresden or Tokyo. They could easily do that if they wanted to. But that's not what's happening.

[Sezu]

9. Reality sucks for some of these folks. Try not to

give them too big a dose.

;(

[IndianaGreen]

11. Israel is using white phosphorus bombs and shells in Gaza

Gaza is certainly burning tonight!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. Gaza is not being firebombed. Limited reports of WP use

[Sezu]

16. Why bother with someone who has their mind made up

DESPITE the reality of FACTS. Losing battle. The poster has an agenda which supercedes facts.

[soulcore]

21. Even limited WP use is still a war crime. n/t

[GSPowner]

24. Not Necessarily...check the OPCW...

There is phosphorus ordinance that is allowed.

[Recursion]

34. Since when?

Its use as an illuminant and incendiary is legal as far as I know. Like any weapon it's illegal to target civilians with it, but its actual use as such is not illegal.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Babies being thrown from incubators.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sezu]

25. Yes it's only a matter of time before the babies are thrown, perhaps

on the way to poison the wells.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. EXACTLY!

This is similar to the story during the Hizb'allah conflict. People screeching for weeks about WP. Then, when it was shown not to be true, another week of screeching, until it was finally laid to rest as being untrue. Could it be true this time around? Of course. But, time will tell, as it did last time.

[soulcore]

50. Israel rains fire on Gaza with phosphorus shells

Source: London Times

Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

As the Israeli army stormed to the edges of Gaza City and the Palestinian death toll topped 500, the tell-tale shells could be seen spreading tentacles of thick white smoke to cover the troops’ advance. “These explosions are fantastic looking, and produce a great deal of smoke that blinds the enemy so that our forces can move in,” said one Israeli security expert. Burning blobs of phosphorus would cause severe injuries to anyone caught beneath them and force would-be snipers or operators of remote-controlled booby traps to take cover. Israel admitted using white phosphorus during its 2006 war with Lebanon.

The use of the weapon in the Gaza Strip, one of the world’s mostly densely population areas, is likely to ignite yet more controversy over Israel’s offensive


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

[Shaktimaan]

55. And?

If this is what you are posting as proof of the WP accusations against Israel then you're really just proving our point for us. Using WP is not illegal. It is illegal to use it against people, not in general.

Nothing you've posted here insinuates that Israel is using it illegally in any way. Or did so during Lebanon.

Of course, if you could find something, anything, that supported the idea that Israel was using it illegally then you would have posted that. Wouldn't you?

-----

21. Even limited WP use is still a war crime. n/t

The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.

All you've done here is corroborate the fact that your previous post was incorrect. Or was that your intent?

[Recursion]

33. You know, it's called the "blood libel" because it's not true

Pointing out things the IDF is actually doing isn't libel, blood or otherwise.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. No incubators in Shifa Hospital.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Woosh!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. Um.. I think it's actually burning today. There sure are a lot of fires.

I think that's called burning.

Are we still pretending Israel isn't engaged in something horrific?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

44. I think the issue is firebombing, which does not seem to be done

Firebombing is a whole other level of horrific.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Saturday, January 10. National March on Washington. LET GAZA LIVE!

LET GAZA LIVE!
Stop the U.S./Israeli War
Against the Palestinian People

National March on Washington
Saturday, January 10
Assemble at the White House (north side) at 1:00 PM

Sponsoring organizations: ANSWER Coalition, Muslim American Society Freedom, Free Palestine Alliance, American Muslim Task Force, National Council of Arab Americans, Al-Awda - International Palestine Right to Return Coalition, and hundreds of others

Flyer for the DC demonstration (click on the link to view a PDF that you can print and reproduce)

There will be coinciding West Coast demonstrations in San Francisco (11 am at Civic Center) , Los Angeles (12 noon at Westwood Federal Building), San Diego (details TBA) and elsewhere.

Calendar of Emergency Demonstrations Taking Place This Week

Statements from the Free Palestine Alliance

The Free Palestine Alliance, a member group of the ANSWER Coalition National Steering Committee, has been writing daily statements about the Gaza Strip Massacre. These are important statements of political orientation from the Palestinian-American community. Click here to read the statements issued by the Free Palestine Alliance.

A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition
http://www.answercoalition.org/