Israeli Tank Column Enters Gaza: Witness

[tekisui]

Source: Reuters

GAZA (Reuters) – A column of Israeli tanks, some firing their weapons, rolled into the northern Gaza Strip on Saturday, a Palestinian witness said, in what appeared to be the beginning of a ground offensive against Islamist Hamas.

The witness, a resident of the Gaza town of Beit Lahiya, said the column crossed the boundary fence under darkness and was accompanied by Israeli combat helicopters.

The witness could not immediately say how deep the Israelis had penetrated into Palestinian territory.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment.

Israeli media quoted unconfirmed witness reports suggesting there were incursions under way elsewhere in Gaza.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/us_palestinians_israel

[IndianaGreen]

1. May Gaza become another Lebanon to the imperialists in Israel

Long live a free Palestine!

[tekisui]

2. Well, its not going to be pretty for anyone.

And, now Israel faces getting bogged down in an unwinnable Urban War Zone, or retreating. With the coming elections, I don't see anything but pain, suffering and more death for at least the next month.

[Fozzledick]

3. Not likely

They seem to have learned the uselessness of restraint in dealing with terrorists.

[tekisui]

12. Hamas and the rocket launchers will retreat deeper into Gaza.

Israel, if they are serious in their aims at toppling Hamas and/or stopping all rocket-fire will be forced to go deep into Hamas. Ultimately, it is a now win situation for all involved.

[Fozzledick]

That appears to be Hamas' plan

It remains to be seen what strategy Israel has to counter it, and how effectively they'll cope with Hamas' constantly trying to draw fire onto civilians.

[hack89]

26. There's not much "deep" to Gaza

I also think that one of the aims of the ground incursion is to force Hamas leaders and units out of hiding - they are easier targets when they are moving.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoesTo11]

4. Thanks for expressing the sentiments of so much of DU so clearly.

[azurnoir]

6. And what sites sentiments are you expressing? n/t

[GoesTo11]

7. My own sentiments - progressive who doesn't have a crush on terrorists.

I want to see Hamas defeated and I want to see a good future for the Palestinians and the Israelis. I understand that Hamas is not going to contribute to that good future.

[IndianaGreen]

10. Israel's Occupation is 24/7 terrorism on the Palestinians!

Just like the US supports terrorism (School of the Americas) and gives refuge to terrorists (Posada Carriles).

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

19. For 60 years? Don't you mean 40 years?

Between 1948 and 1967 the West Bank was occupied by Jordan and Gaza was occupied by Egypt.

Open air concentration camps?

Wow

[Statistical]

41. Don't you know facts don't matter. To some Israel = Evil & Hamas = rainbows

[azurnoir]

33. Ah so it is the either or again

either you support Israel's actions or you must support Hamas I see, but the problem is that actual progressives see it is not that black and white and that one can condemn Israels actions without supporting Hamas, your posts are quite revealing

[GoesTo11]

34. OK, so I'm not an actual progressive.

You found me out. I've been fooling myself. But I support Israel's actions in this so far, and I condemn Hamas. I can deal with people who criticize Israel as long as they don't go into conspiracy theories and talk of genocide and concentration camps and war crimes. But I can't deal with people who think Hamas is a force for peace and humanitarianism. Hamas is what they act like they are - a bunch of thugs. Israel is a complex society trying to protect itself both in the short term and long term without killing everyone on the other side.

[IndianaGreen]

36. It is just another shitty little country in the Middle East

a region that we must withdraw from, and a region to which we shouldn't be sending money and armaments.

[GoesTo11]

37. What's with the Hebrew Obama sticker anyway?

Is that to give you credibility as an honest broker? Cute.

No friend of the Jewish people would call Israel another shitty little country. Even Jews who are unhappy with Israel take it seriously and think of it as a special country. I don't know if you're Jewish but if you are, and you call Israel another shitty little country, you hate your own faith.

[Madam Mossfern]

67. I find it quite perplexing

to read your posts and then to see you signature with "Barack Obama" written in Hebrew.
While I am a contributor to Americans for Peace Now, I have not seen any of the vitriol that you express from any in the peace movement.

Can you please explain your position. If you think that Israel has not right to exist as a sovereign and secure nation, what do you propose that all the citizen do? Where should they go? Do you really believe in the benevolence of Hamas? Do you not understand that there promises to be wholesale slaughter? Is that alright with you as long as they're not Palestinians?

BTW, I do not agree with Israel's tactics in this instance, but not agreeing an having 'attitude' are totally different things.

[Idealism]

59. "conspiracy theories and talk of genocide and concentration camps and war crimes."

According to the U.N., those "conspiracy theories" actually are happening (Collective Punishment- aka international crimes)
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/183ED1610B2BCB80C125751A002B06B2?opendocument

According to Amnesty International, those "conspiracy theories" actually are happening.
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=17616
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/021/2008/en

The European Union has demanded an end to this Collective Punishment
http://www.imemc.org/article/50634

We can debate over who cast the first stone, but please at least acknowledge the humanitarian crisis, and thus a violation of the Geneva Conventions, is occurring, and it isn't Hamas who is committing these crimes.


Wikipedia's definition of Collective Punishment:

Collective punishment is the punishment of a group of people as a result of the behaviour of one or more other individuals or groups. The punished group may often have no direct association with the other individuals or groups, or direct control over their actions. In times of war and armed conflict, collective punishment has resulted in atrocities, and is a violation of the laws of war and the Geneva Conventions. Historically, occupying powers have used collective punishment to retaliate against and deter attacks on their forces by resistance movements (e.g. by destroying whole villages where attacks have taken place).

[hack89]

66. Don' t the people of Gaza have a "direct association" with their elected government?

Hamas is waging war against Israel. Hamas was elected by the people of Gaza. Why don't the people of Gaza bear some responsibility for Israels response to Hamas rocket and suicide attacks?

[Idealism]

68. I say they bear as much responsibility that we have for electing Bush

[hack89]

70. I agree nt

[Idealism]

58. You think the Palestinian Authority is friends with Israel?

It isn't Hamas who Israel is at war with, it is Palestinians, and it has always been thus.

The West Bank, year by year, has been annexed off. Palestinians farmers have been thrown off their land and imprisoned if they fight back too hard. West Banks water supply is controlled by the IDF (the Western Aquifer) the same with their industrial diesel supply.

It isn't just Hamas who they wish to see destroyed.

[GoesTo11]

65. PA isn't suicidal

That's a better basis for negotiation than friendship.

Palestinians on the West Bank have lost access to land due to both Israeli settlements and Israeli security concerns - e.g., rockets, suicide bombers, terrorism. For a negotiated solution to be acceptable to the PA, most of those settlements will be gone. For it to be acceptable to Israel, the security concerns will have to be vastly reduced (with PA endorsing a true peace) and the Palestinians would be in control of the corridors that Israel currently controls.

I expect this to be worked out under the Obama administration. Israelis who are mostly concerned with security will be ready for it. Israelis in the small settlements scattered throughout the region will just have to deal with it.

Do you talk to Israelis? Most of them are sick of the settlements and the problems they create for everyone else. If you're a normal 38 year old father of 3, do you really want to spend 3 weeks a year on reserve duty standing on a highway next to a mobile home park behind barbed wire filled with fanatics from the Bronx? Most Israelis want nothing more than for this conflict to end. It almost happened in 2000. Even Ariel Sharon before his stroke broke with Likud and joined with Shimon Peres to have a sort of national unity party in order to negotiate peace (then came Olmert and the rest is history). And this party won the elections and took power. Whether or not they wish to see the PA destroyed, they realize it's not worth it and they aren't going to have as big a country as they might like. Most Israelis aren't suicidal.

So between them and the PA, the situation doesn't have to always be thus.

[Idealism]

69. Few if any suicide bombers came from the West Bank

No rockets got fired from there, as far as reports tell, so terrorism is a weak excuse for continuously stealing land. The PA may not be suicidal, but they sure turn their heads at the things Israel does to their people. It is no wonder that when given a choice between Hamas or the PA appeasers, Gaza chose the former.

[azurnoir]

5. This is what I predicted

for all of the fist shaking the Israeli government is doing at Iran and Lebanon the only target they will actually go after is Gaza it is the softest, sort of a fish in a barrel type thing.

[GoesTo11]

8. Do you now want Israel to attack Iran?

[azurnoir]

35. Did I say that?

No what I said is that there has been a lot of fist shaking going on where Iran was concerned, there have also been threats of attack made by Israel but that the target would be Gaza.

[Fozzledick]

9. Gee, Gaza is where the rockets are being fired from

and I can imagine what you'd be screaming if they attacked the commanders in Iran directly

[High Plains]

16. Funny, there seem to be more rockets now than ever.

Funny way of "protecting" Israel, no?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. Actually fewer. The real test will be in a week or so since

local stockpiles should be expended by then.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fozzledick]

18. Use of Big Lie technique noted

How much longer before you Godwin the thread?

[Statistical]

11. And if/when they strike at nuclear targets in Iran...

Will you support them or damn them?

Honestly it is damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[IndianaGreen]

21. Looks like Israel is using phosphorus bombs in Gaza

The Ramattan video being simulcast by CNN showed a phosphorus bomb go off, similar to the ones we saw being used over Fallujah.

[sixmile]

29. Isn't the use of phosphorous bombs a war crime?

And didn't Israel admit to using them in Lebanon?

[IndianaGreen]

30. Yes to first question. On the second question, Robert Fisk reported the use of phosphorus

bombs by Israel in Lebanon over populated areas. I am not sure if Israel ever admitted to anything!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

39. Not always, according to some not ever if its a military target

[Sezu]

31. You sure seem to love terrorists? Why is that? n/t

[GoesTo11]

32. A free Palestine?

Life under Hamas must be idyllic.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Life under Israel's jackboots is not the idyllic thing the apologists want us to believe

If America had been occupied like Palestine, we would all be cheering every bombing and attack on the occupier.

[IndianaGreen]

13. Al Jazeera: Israel begins Gaza ground offensive

Israel begins Gaza ground offensive

The Israeli army has confirmed its troops have entered the Gaza Strip as it escalates its offensive on the eighth day of operations.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, a spokesman for the Israeli foreign ministry said: "They (Israeli ground forces) will be completing the mission of the air force, going for Hamas headquarters and weapons caches and giving a blow to their capability to launch attacks into Israel."

Alan Fisher, Al Jazeera's correspondent on the Israeli-Gaza border, said that the Israeli army had confirmed it had entered Gaza and that he had witnessed the movement of tanks and armoured vehicles in the area.

Hamas had earlier vowed to defeat the Israeli army if it invaded the territory.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200913165056951537.html

Earlier video:

Mobile Bulletin - 1405 GMT - 3 Jan 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6WjREMT7zM&eurl=http://english.aljazeera.net/

[IndianaGreen]

20. Another update from Haaretz

Last update - 21:18 03/01/2009

Israel launches ground operation in Gaza Strip

By Amos Harel, Yoav Stern and Yanir Yagana, Haaretz Correspondents, and News Agencies

Channel 10 television quoted a witness as saying that Israel was shelling targets along the entire length of the shared border.

At one tank base along the border, the roar of tank engines and the rumble of their movements toward the border could be heard after dark, though none moved across the frontier. Hamas officials also reported tank movement toward the border near the northern Erez crossing point.

Defense officials said some 10,000 troops, including tank, artillery and special operations units, were massed on the Gaza border and prepared to invade. They said top commanders were split over whether to send in ground forces, in part because such an operation could lead to heavy casualties but also because they believe Hamas already has been dealt a heavy blow.

A family in Beit Lahiya said that an Israeli artillery shell had hit a house there, wounding many people. Ambulances could not immediately reach
them because of the resulting fire, they said.

Meanwhile, Israel Air Force warplanes stepped up airstrikes on Gaza, bombing the main road that runs throughout the strip in three different spots, making travel from one side of the Strip to the other close to impossible.

Palestinian health officials in Gaza reported Saturday evening that 13 people had been killed in another IAF bombing of a mosque in Beit Lahiya. They said that 26 Palestinians had died in IAF raids after dark Saturday.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1052299.html

[EFerrari]

22. So, they want to take Hamas "out". They can't. But even if they manage it,

then what? The people will be twice as angry.

Where the hell is the UN?

[IndianaGreen]

23. The US veto power protects Israel, and will continue to do so

Security Council needs some serious revamping, or abolition.

[EFerrari]

25. Yes, that's true. But someone could be talking to the press.

Someone could be raising their voice. How are you tracking this, IndianaGreen? Are you streaming coverage? :(

[IndianaGreen]

27. I am keeping track with Al Jazeera and Haaretz

and MSNBC on TV. I don't get Al Jazeera TV on my cable provider.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Live Twitter updates from Gaza

on Al Jazeera:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2008/12/2008122916531937971.html

and here:

http://twitter.com/ajgaza

Amr El-Kahky says flares seen towards north of Rafah in Gaza and heavy bursts of artillery fire. Israelis taken demolished Rafah airport.
3 minutes ago from web

Al Jazeera's Amr El-Kahky on Egyptian side of Rafah crossing says bombardment so intense windows shattered in homes on Egyptian side. 4 minutes ago from web

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. That has been the intention from the get go...depose Hamas so the PA can resume control of Gaza

Hamas takeover of Gaza waa coup...

[IndianaGreen]

24. Another Sabra and Chatila? IDF column approaching Jabalia refugee camp

according to live report by MSNBC.

JABALIA CAMP

Jabalia camp is located north of Gaza City beside a village of the same name. The camp was established after the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict for 35,000 refugees who had fled from villages in southern Palestine. The refugees were at first provided with tents, which UNRWA later replaced with cement block shelters with asbestos roofs.

The camp covers an area of 1.4 sq. km. The shelters, which usually consist of two or three small rooms, a small kitchen and bathroom on an area of maximum 40 sq. m, are packed closely together. Narrow alleys and pathways, some less than one meter wide, run between the shelters. The camp lacks basic infrastructure. Solid waste is collected by UNRWA's sanitation labourers. Water is supplied by the local municipality or comes from UNRWA and private water wells.

The first Palestinian Intifadah started in Jabalia Camp in December 1987.

Prior to the closure of the Gaza Strip in September 2000, most of the refugees worked as labourers in Israel or locally in agriculture in nearby farms in Beit Lahia. Some own small shops in the camp and a few work in small businesses.


FACTS AND FIGURES

The registered refugee population is 106,691 persons.

http://www.un.org/unrwa/refugees/gaza/jabalia.html

[Duckhunter935]

43. Watching CNN international

Even after 9 days of bombing and attacks, I am amazed at how few buildings are showing destruction and they just had a civilian on the phone from Gaza. I am sure some areas have been hit harder than others. I just wish both sides would grow up and end this.

[Idealism]

44. The hardest hit areas were government buildings and mosques

They tried to avoid residential compounds

[OCAtheist]

46. And a school or three. n/t

[Idealism]

47. You mean "Weapons labratories"

according to many DU'ers...

[Kurska]

53. If you're talking the universitiy, it was a weapons lab

Fatah even attacked during the brief fight for control.

[Idealism]

54. All universities to some extent develop military technology

Up until a week ago, 60% of Islamic University's students were women. Women are not allowed many liberties in Arab cultures, I doubt they let them build bombs, and CNN reported that the University buildings targeted damaged were Social Sciences and the Womens Quarters. It is possible that they were hiding bombs there but at this time it is useless to speculate until after the dust settles.

[DCKit]

56. Yeah, right. We'll know the "truth" when the dust has settled.

Somewhere, in a deep, dark bunker, Dick Cheney is furiously masturbating.

[Kurska]

48. I was under the assumption very few mosques were hit

How many were hit? I do know the that the mosque I recall being hit was being used as a weapon's store.

[Idealism]

49. I read a few stories on Haaretz that put the count of Mosques at 20.

But not all places of worship are created equal, they may be smaller institutions and larger ones. Still, 20 is a bit excessive. I don't know we can definitively say a mosque was being used as a weapon store at this point in time.

[Kurska]

52. As hard as it may be to believe

I'm very curious what people think israel would gain by bombing a mosque that isn't a weapons store. Also whats the definition of a mosque? Is it anywhere that some aspects of fatih have been thrown up, that number sounds suspect to me.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Here's my guess...

I'm very curious what people think israel would gain by bombing a mosque that isn't a weapons store.

Wouldn't it be because Hamas members would hang out in mosques?

Also whats the definition of a mosque?

My guess is very similar to the definition of a church or a synagogue - a place where the misguided (as all religious folk are) go to worship their god on a regular basis.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

60. Secondary explosions are a big clue

So would be prior observations of munitions being moved in or out. However in both cases only the IAF could provide that.

[Idealism]

61. It isn't exactly a clear indication considering the secondaries I saw

were immediate after the bombs reached contact point. It is entirely possible the F-16s were equiped with CBU-97s or similar that would have the secondaries visual effect, as they are cluster bombs that are armor-piercing as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

62. CBUs have not been seen so far (thankfully)

Israel make CBUs in house and claims much lower failure rate than the US ones, on the order of 1%. However, if they are using them there will be failed ones found. After the PR disaster in Lebanon, I do not expect them to be used.

Back to the mosque video I would have expected more small explosions if a CBUs had been used. My take on the video released by the IAF was clearly secondary explosion of energetic material, YMMV. Right now I think 4-5 mosque strikes have been independently verified, but I am mobile tonight and don't have my data with me.

[Idealism]

63. Interesting the video on here about the Doctor from Norway

He said many of the wounded brought to him are standard shrapnel, etc but some are different. Burned and other disfigurements. Is it possible phosphorous is being used again?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

64. There was a discussion of WP earlier today

It could also be cooking gas or other fuels stored in buildings.

There are damn few docs (thankfully) who know first hand what casualties from bombings and shelling look like so WP burns have a distinct signature as well.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

50. How many mosques?

[Violet_Crumble]

45. I think northern Gaza is copping the brunt of it n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Per the last video I was able to D/L, the land assaults are coming from two directions

and northern Gaza is were the rockets are being launched from

[Violet_Crumble]

55. Wasn't northern Gaza where most of the bombing happened?

Not being good with shortcuts for words, it too me a moment to work out what D/L meant....