Hamas militants holding severed leg of Israeli soldier

[drdon326]

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_831274.html

A family of Hamas militants is still holding the severed leg of an Israeli commando killed four months ago in an explosion during a raid on the family's house in the Gaza Strip.

The office of the Hamas spiritual leader, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, says the al-Ghoul family is free to do what it wants with the remains, including opening negotiations with Israel for its return.

Israeli military sources said they were in contact with the soldier's family and with Palestinian officials.The Palestinians have made no demands and there are no negotiations for the return of the body part, the military said.

According to Jewish religious law, all parts of the body must be properly buried.

After the June 27 battle, Hamas released footage of the aftermath, showing a destroyed house and a masked gunmen standing beside a badly mangled lower leg.

..................................................................

I really thought these terrorists could NOT get any lower.....

how little i knew.

[soleft]

1. that's very Al-Ghoulish of them

sorry.

[rini]

2. sometimes there is nothing to say

:cry:

[Resistance]

15. imagine if these people had F16s

they might send missiles into crowds of civilians

Oh wait, that's IDF terrorism I am thinking of.

[Gimel]

38. Then you would have a war

on your hands. As it is, it's only a conflict.

[edzontar]

3. How gruesome.....but hardly unique to "terrorists" or Palestinians...

As any historian will tell you.

US soldiers in the Pacific in WW2 and Vietnam collected kill-trophies of "Japs" and "Gooks" in the form of ears, penises, and skulls.

In WW2 the skulls were sometimes boiled clean and sent home to the wife or sweetheart.

Honestly, I am not kidding--there was a photospread in LIFE magazine in 1942 or 1942, showing a well-dressed, pearl-necklace wearing "war bride" writing a note to her GI hubby, thanking her for the Jap Skull he sent her."

The skull is prominently displayed on the desk, as she looks down with an expression of loving concern and devotion.

I actually OWN the issue in question, and displayed it in an exhibition of war memorablia some years ago in Boston.

If you want to know more about stuff this, there is a great book, I forget the author, but the title is "War Without Mercy."

The book details the absolutely horrible attrocities commtted by forces on both sides in the Pacific, including the strafing of survivors after their ships were sunk by American planes

So what this awful story from our modern world really illustrates is NOT how UNIQUELY HORRIBLE these particular "terrorists" are--but that they are just one more example of humankind's apparently infinite capacity for brutality and dehumanization of the "enemy."

Indeed, if -as I suspect--the poster and/or originator of this report brought this horrible incident to our intention with the intention to inflame our hearts with still MORE hate and anger against the "terrorists"---I would argue that by doing so, the person in question is playing their own part in perpetuating the cycle of hate and murder-justification that is such a wonderful part of being human.

Well done!!!

[Supply Side Jesus]

4. well said

well said.

[edzontar]

7. Thanks....its hard to cope with these posts sometimes....

nt

[drdon326]

6. hmm...

"--I would argue that by doing so, the person in question is playing their own part in perpetuating the cycle of hate and murder-justification that is such a wonderful part of being human."


oh....i'm sooo hurt. *yawn*

[edzontar]

8. So-was that you motivation?

Seriously, and I mean no personal offense, what were you thinking about when you decided to post this?

Isn't the whole point of stories like this to show how "inhuman" the enemy of the moment is?

That was certainly the implication of your own comment on the original message.

What about my point that humans-in-general tend to do these awful things--and that practises like these--collecting "victory trophies" in this cse--are not unique to any one group?

That does not justify such ghoulish behavior...but it at least places it in some kind of context.

[The Magistrate]

11. The Author Of That Work, Sir

Is Prof. John Dower, and "War Without Mercy" is a most excellent and instructive work.

[edzontar]

34. Thanks for tracking it down.

An excellent book indeed--it has been a long time since i read it, obviously.

But it made an impression.

[The Magistrate]

41. One Of Its Effects On Me, Sir

Was probably not intended by its author, namely a desire to revisit old Fu Manchu tales read as a boy. It was also pleasant to see mention of Mr. Moto: those were very good reads.

For Western audiences, the book is particularly valuable in its presentations of Japanese propagandas, both those aimed at other Asians, and at the Japanese population. These, and their effectiveness, particularly the first sort, are almost wholly unknown here. It does seem to me the author does not fully appreciate the genuine conviction of their inherent superiority moving the Japanese military leadership, and the depth of that belief in Japanese culture, but that is mere quibble: he certainly presents sufficient information on that score for readers to draw their own conclusions.

Study of the Orient is far more my interest than this Levantine trifle, but it is not a subject people argue much about....

[Sesquipedalian]

12. I saw a picture of some IDF posing with a severed head..

Things are the things groups of men killing each other do.

[Gimel]

23. These lies

are not appreciated. This was only propaganda, if you saw it.

[drdon326]

24. Really ??

pretty tough claim....i'm sure you have proof of this and
lets see it because i'm calling you on it.

[Sesquipedalian]

33. even if I saw it it was propaganda?

Is that a classification that something assumes automatically when it indicts Israeli behavior or am I missing something?

Here is a picture for you, I know it's "propaganda" and all but I can't help it that I keep seeing these things that don't add up to Beautiful Israel :shrug:


http://indymedia.org.il/imc/webcast/15389.html

[Gimel]

36. The head is not severed.

In fact, it won't even be in the picture the third soldier is taking. He appears to be photographing the building, and possibly the two soldiers. The Palestinian is lying covered on the ground, and out of range of the camera.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=23933&mesg_id=23953&page=

I think what you said in your post above was morally wrong, as well as false.

[Sesquipedalian]

39. morally wrong?

I've seen the pictures, you can wish them away and ignore the fact that the IDF cracked down on them after the severed head picture got out (I guess they were fooled to :eyes: )but it only shows an absolutely ridiculous amount of denial.

[bemildred]

42. A small corroboration.

In the 70s I was well aquainted with quite a few returning
VietNam vets, mainly fellow employees, and I have seen with my
own eyes photos of necklaces made of ears being worn by one of said
fellow employees. Such things are as old as war.

[el_gato]

5. hmmmm

"killed four months ago in an explosion during a raid on the family's house in the Gaza Strip"


I guess they were supposed to play nice?

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Speaking of motivation

What was your rationale for defending this?

[bluesoul]

10. No rationale

There is no rationale for defending this, but if you believe that only certain people are capable of doing such things think twice...

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. I think all people can do horrible things

But that doesn't defend this. It is still a horrible thing. Likely to inspire others.

[Resistance]

17. you defend IDF terrorist attacks on Palestinians civilians

so what's the problem?

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Nope, not even likely

I defend IDF attacks on terrorists who deliberately hide behind civilians to maximize civilian body count. This problem could be dealt with if the Palestinians went after the terrorists.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bluesoul]

14. Low

That wasn't necessary Bringemon...:thumbsdown:

[Equinox]

19. I have to say that even in death people can't rest in peace...

...it is not right that they are holding his remains. They should give it back so the soldiers family can come to some sort of terms with his death.

Tragic....

[Resistance]

20. I have read about

Israeli soldiers having their friends take pictures of them next to Palestinian victims, like it's this trophy for them.

Pyschopaths like that are all the same. I wouldn't want a soldiers leg, or a picture of me next to the dead person I just rifled down.

[drdon326]

25. Alot of talk.........

lets see some proof of what i believe is total
fabrication, Resistance.

[Equinox]

27. Drdon....

serious question:

Why can't you recognize the capacity for inhumanity on both sides?

These people holding the soldier's leg are nothing but scum. But I also know that their are some IDF soldiers who are equally as monstrous.

The first step is acknowledgement....

:shrug:

[Gimel]

28. You must have confused this

The photos are of the Palestinian bombers next to the destroyed buses, with the victims inside. Theis pictures are available nowhere else than al Jezeera and ElectrnicIntifada.com

[Aidoneus]

30. what?

not sure what you're trying to say..

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

29. ask and thou shalt receive..

--snip--
Soldiers at the Haredi Nahal post in the Jordan Valley defaced the corpse of a Palestinian suicide bomber who attacked not far from their base. According to testimonies and photographs that have reached Kol Ha'ir, the soldiers toyed with the Palestinian's head, which was severed from his body, placed a cigarette in his mouth, transferred it to their watch out post, dozens of meters away, and posed next to it for trophy pictures. Other testimonies indicate further violations of human dignity.
--snip--
http://oznik.com/news/020215.html

------------------------------

--snip--
On September 12, 1997, soldiers from Egoz unit, part of the Golani infantry brigade, assassinated Hadi Nasrallah, son of Hizb’allah Secretary General Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. Soldiers use this celebrated occasion to have their pictures taken next to the defaced body, the one they have just killed. Until the body was transported to Israel, while it remained on the site, and kept by the IDF, more soldiers use the rare photo opportunity next to a celebrity enemy fighter.
--snip--
An IDF focused web site, IDF2000, composed mostly of material written by soldiers, contains harsh pictures of Hizb'allah fighters' defaced corpses (a link to this site appears on the right hand side of this page, under "Related Links," but be warned: the photos are hard to stomach). In the site's "Leisure and Society" section, next to "Dating," and "The Love Calculator," is a "Galleries and Photos" section. One of the galleries, listed among various "Military Folklore" photos, contains 14 horror photos of defaced corpses. One corpse's photo was taken with Israeli soldiers standing next to it. Others are close-ups on defaced bodies, their heads split open.
--snip--
http://oznik.com/news/011005.html

------------------------------

Israelis pose with dead Palestinians
By Inigo Gilmore in Jerusalem

The Israeli Army is investigating reports that its soldiers are circulating "trophy" photographs of themselves posing next to dead and sometimes mutilated Palestinians.
--snip--
The revelation, made by a group of Israeli soldiers this month, has heightened fears that young army recruits are inured to the violence they face routinely as the Palestinian uprising drags on into its second year. The group told a Jerusalem weekly newspaper that they and their fellow soldiers often took pocket cameras on military missions and posed for pictures next to corpses of Palestinians.

It is not the first time that soldiers have taken pictures of their dead opponents. United States troops photographed the bodies of enemy soldiers during the Vietnam War. The Israeli soldiers said many of the photographs were widely distributed in military units, and appearing in such pictures had become a ritualistic "badge of honour".
--snip--
In another incident in the Gaza Strip, soldiers photographed a Palestinian who had infiltrated a settlement and was shot dead. A post- mortem examination showed his body had been shot at close range after death. Yoram, 20, an armoured corps soldier, said he had seen 40 to 50 photographs of soldiers posing next to dead Palestinians.

"I remember one terrible photo of the soldiers smiling like children as they stood on the bodies with their boots, really enjoying the moment."
--snip--
The Telegraph, London and agencies
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/archives/israelis_pose_with_dead_palestinians.htm
originally in Australia's Sunday Morning Herald (or the Telegraph, as the end of this suggests..they're all Hollinger papers anyway), but their archives aren't working so I sought the same piece out elsewhere.

------------------------------

more? these were found easily enough.

[edzontar]

31. Aidoneus-Thanks (I guess) for the example....

I am reminded of the scene in "Full Metal Jacket" where the Gis pose for pictures with propped up VC corpses.

Look, folks, wherever ypou are on this issue, inhumanity and grotesque ghoulish behavior is pretty much a universal in war.

I would think we could agree on that.

[tinnypriv]

21. Well said (nt)

[Gimel]

22. Religious law

The Hamas know that according to Jewish law, all parts of the body must be buried together. They know that Israelis will exchange living men to get body parts returned. I'm sure this is just the beginning of an attempt to extort concessions from Isrel.

[Muddleoftheroad]

26. Trading living men is easy

Find the perpetrators here and take them into custody. Trade THEM.

[edzontar]

32. This may not be all THAT systematic a gesture....

It could just be ghoulish, vindictive, eye-for-an-eye trophy-brandishing.

Either way, it is disturbing but neither unique to this situation nor surprising, as any remotely objective look at some of the posts above amply demonstrates.

[Sesquipedalian]

37. It's a bunch of bullshit

apparently Jews never do this no matter what and any picture you see is a fake because Jews are good and wouldn't do such a thing, they just fight terrorists. Muslims on the other hand go out of their way to desecrate bodies because they are Jewish bodies and they are just crazy, jew-hating fools who can't even quit hating when they are dead.

[Gimel]

40. False claims to the contrary

won't prove a thing. Neither will ridicule.