Our taxes fund injustice and apartheid

[Resistance]

(not to mention outright terrorism against innocent civilians)

http://www.ramallahonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1526

There are schools for Palestinians and schools for Israeli Jews. Israel builds Jewish only highways and settlements on lands confiscated from Palestinians. Israelis get 6 times more water per person than Palestinians. The legal system distinguishes Jews from "non-Jews" in many spheres of life including land ownership and access to government services. Israel imports Jews from all over the world and settles them on confiscated Palestinian (Christian and Muslim) lands.

Israel/Palestine now has about 5 million Jews and 4.6 million Christians and Muslims. But of the 9 million Palestinians in the world, over 5 million are refugees or "displaced persons." A quarter of Israel's 1.3 million Palestinian "citizens" are considered by the Israeli legal system as "present absentees." Lands and homes of Christian and Muslim refugees and "present absentees" are turned over to the Jewish Agency (later Israel Lands Authority) that administers the land and leases it to Jewish colonial "development."

Rachel Corrie, a 23 year old American member of the International Solidarity movement, was killed by an Israeli soldier driving an American made Caterpillar. As I reflect on my son's graduation, I weep with the family of this student and the families of over 800 Palestinian students killed by Israeli forces. I also reflect on and I am saddened by the continuing injustices supported by our taxes. But then I think of the idealism and wonderful words of Rachel and all the conscientious students she left behind. They will lead us to a world with no walls and a world of justice and equality.

[Resistance]

1. Just for the record

I am against funding the murders of peace activists such as Rachel Corrie.

[rini]

19. I am against funding murderers,

thieves, and multi-millioaire weasels who give nothing to their people.

[Violet_Crumble]

21. Then why are you paying taxes to the Bush regime?

Or aren't they murderers, thieves, and multi-millionaire weasels who give nothing to their people?


Violet...

[Resistance]

90. Great point

[number6]

91. me too ....

Bush , Sharon, Arafat , trifecta of multi-millionaire weasels.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/371232.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. Not looking for ALL the lies, so I'll settle for one

Israel does NOT build Jews-only highways. Israel does build roads that require Israeli citizenship (Israeli tags) to drive upon. Funny thing though, Israel is only about 80% Jewish.

[Resistance]

3. your minor clarification is welcome

but is no indication whatsoever that the article is all "lies"

[Muddleoftheroad]

10. Well, one obvious lie is obviously a disturbing thing

And I just glanced at it.

[Darranar]

11. It isn't a lie...

such roads are built in the Occupied Territories.

[Muddleoftheroad]

16. NOT Jewish only roads

ISRAELI Only roads.

That's one big difference.

[Darranar]

17. There are non-Jewish settlers?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Try this

http://camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=33&x_article=435

[BlackFrancis]

55. right..

Do you really think an Israeli with a crescent and star on his ID is going to be allowed on that road?

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. Do you really have evidence otherwise?

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. Funny, I see statements and no proof

[BlackFrancis]

75. What do you imagine these roads are for?

I bet you know better and you just want to play games but here you go.

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/db.php?tid=86

You can go there and read damn near all day about the roads and you won't need to ask me to help you talk about the subject.

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. Hmmm, roads

I bet they are used for travel.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Aidoneus]

4. in the occupied Palestinian lands,

there most certainly are effecitvely Jewish-only roads.. the colonists are allowed to use them, the locals under occupation are not. The names of Palestinian villages are not even mentioned on the roadsigns, so the colonists could pretend that they just don't exist like their mythology would like to convince themselves of (what am I saying "their" mythology, it's the same fairytale told here from time to time also).

With the same idea in mind, those Palestinians who will find their homes on the wrong side of that wall you endlessly defend will need special permits to live in their own villages, while any Israeli can physically move in and out of the land at will.

[bemildred]

5. That is a great movie.

I took my kid down to watch it in Hollywood last Spring.

[Muddleoftheroad]

12. You are flat out wrong

"Locals under occupation" are not Israeli citizens. As such, a restriction to ONLY Israeli citizens would impact them, but NOT Israeli Arabs of whom there are quite a few.

You make the classic mistake of making all Israelis Jews, which is far from the case.

[Darranar]

13. There are Arab settlers?

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Yes, little grasshopper. It's a well-kept secret...

We often get misled by those 'friends of Israel' who always refer to Jewish settlements and how dismantling of the settlements is in effect carrying out genocide on Jews, but we must be strong and not succumb to that siren's song. In reality, Arabs live as settlers, and are at their happiest when cosily ensconced in an illegal outpost with those zany but ultimately harmless religious Jewish settlers. There's nothing quite so empowering for an Arab settler as being called 'nothing but an animal' by their fellow road-sharers. In fact, if push comes to shove, I'm sure Muddle can smash a few more myths with just a few well-aimed words and armed with a link to those lovable and just so highly credible guys from camera. All we have to do is shut out eyes tight while we listen and repeat loudly to ourselves: 'It doesn't matter that Palestinians are banned from using these roads and living in the settlements on Palestinian territory. It's not like the land belongs to them or anything, right?' ;)

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Other than a rant

You might try proving the assertion about the roads, which it is quite obvious you did not.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Uh, I was having fun, not a rant...

There's a big difference, Muddles. Lighten up. Seeing yr the one claiming that Arabs are settlers and use the roads, it's up to you to prove anything, methinks. If you don't want to, that's fine, because I'm actually a bit bemused about why yr trying to argue such a strange sort of thing, but you just keep on bringing on those links to camera and I'll sit quietly and watch, okay?

Violet...

[bluesoul]

26. As though we are all blind

and don't see all that is going on. New settlements, wall building, more land grabbing, more house demolishment, but that's all fine and dandy since it is fighting terrorism. Problem is 90% of the folks affected aren't terrorist but normal families that just want to live peacefully. But I guess that is hard for some people to understand or even sympathize with those civilians as well...

[Muddleoftheroad]

27. A couple points

Those people who live peacefully, they would be most of those who make up the 75% who support terror? (One can probably assume they make up the 65%. I guess using your math that the 10% of the Palestinian population involved in terror probably would vote for it.)

Now, if all 3 million or so Palestinians are impacted by the wall, etc., that means you think 300,000 Palestinians are involved with terror? By percentage, that is substantially more than the percentage of Americans involved in our armed forces.

[bluesoul]

29. Oh come on Muddle

Are 75% involved in terrorist attacks? People tend to support a lot of things when the circumstances are as they are in the OT, saying something in some poll does not make you a criminal or terrorist. After all even many Israelis support certain measure that would be considered extreme to many as well, so they're all terrorists and criminals? One thing is being ACTUALLY involved in certain acts, something completely different is one's personal opinion and such in a very severe situation where people tend to get desperate. But I guess you have no problem in collective punishment then for people that hold views you don't like. How about all those confederate waving Americans? Shall the same be done for them?

[bluesoul]

30. Oh and following your logic

let's then punish all those Israelis supporting Sharon.

[Muddleoftheroad]

32. Then you must punish many Palestinians

The Palestinian terror network provides the strongest support for Sharon, not Israelis. He is there as effect, not cause. Remove the cause (Palestinian terror) and replace it with a new cause (Palestinians shutting DOWN terror) and he will disappear.

[Resistance]

94. How about ending Israeli terror too?

[Muddleoftheroad]

31. The 65%

Again, assuming your number is right that 10% are active terrorists, that still leaves two thirds of the normal, law-abiding, non-murdering Palestinians as supporters of terror.

It is not calling for collective punishment to ban ALL Palestinians from Israel since one in 10 (your numbers, not mine) are terrorists and two thirds of the remainder support terror. Since they support it, it could reasonably be argued that they at least turn a blind eye to it and would do so inside Israel as well.

As for the Confederate flag wavers, northerners don't understand them. The Confederate flag has been adopted as the non-PC symbol of many in the South. It is done to stick a finger in the eye of interference in their lives. Yes, I hate the darn thing, but I have learned it is not about me by and large.

[bluesoul]

33. I am not talking about banning them from Israel

but cutting them from their own land and building a wall on their land! Unless you're among those that consider that land Israeli as well (West Bank, Gaza and all the OT). Then we don't have much to talk about...

[Muddleoftheroad]

34. Their land

What nation owns the land in question?

Of the three prior owners -- Jordan, Britain and Turkey (ala the Ottoman Empire) none now claim it. How can land be ceded to a non-entity?

At some point, I imagine most of that land will be in the possession of a Palestinian state. I sure hope so. In the meantime, no such entity exists.

[bluesoul]

35. I thought

so. No wonder then...

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. So what nation possesses that land in YOUR opinion?

[bluesoul]

37. Palestinians

And if you'll start with the "what Palestinians or what Palestine" then we do have a BIG problem...

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. I simply asked what nation

They are not a nation and we both know that. So I ask again...

[bluesoul]

39. Yes they are!

You don't have to have an internationally recognized state to be called a nation. I am a Slovenian and I was a Slovenian even when we were under Yugoslavia and we weren't an independent state. That doesn't mean we didn't exist as a nation. Palestinians exist as a nation and they aren't going anywhere (Jordan, Syria) just because some think they should be "transfered" or because they don't recognize them as a nation.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Wow, how'd they pull that off?

Got a nation and nobody noticed. When did this magically happen? Any other nations I don't know about? How about those endless groups of peoples around the world who want nations and don't have them. Do they also have nations? Hurray for the Basques! Hurray for the Tibetans! Hurray for the Azlatans (or whatever they call themselves.)! Hurray for the Quebecois!

Boy, the UN must be about 400,000 members now. Personally, I just declared the state of Tomas. I no longer need to pay taxes in the U.S.

And your transfer comment is a strawman. No one here is calling for that.

[bluesoul]

41. Then please tell me

who are they then? Martians? Nobodies? Non existent people? :crazy:

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Citizens of various nations

Just like the Israelis were before they had a nation.

In the case of the Palestinians, many are Jordanian. Some are now Lebanese, etc.

[bluesoul]

45. Oh really

Were most of them born in Jordan or Lebanon? Or where they born in the British Mandate of PALESTINE?

[Aidoneus]

46. point of fact, they're not

the Maronites piss themselves at the thought of the demographics being stacked against them by 300,000 more, so that's a non-starter. "Resettlement" is a very bad idea and would just be criminally abetting the appalling catastrophe that created the situation.

[Classical_Liberal]

47. Some have passports of these contries, not all by any stretch

and hardly any are citizens. http://www.amin.org/old/En/eyejrs/0008/free4_260800.html

[Muddleoftheroad]

49. Then that is a complaint

They would have to take up with them.

Eventually, the will be the nation of Palestinians. But they are not yet.

[bluesoul]

50. They exist as people

and they will not go away. As much as some would want that...

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Yes, they ARE people

but not a nation.

[bluesoul]

52. So when will they be a nation in your mind?

When they get recognized as a state and get the blessing of Israel/USA and the UN? So one day before they are not a nation, the next they will be even though they existed as an entity and had all those components that a nation has that define them. So with whom are all those foreign diplomats talking to when they talk to their representatives? To Jordan and Lebanon or even Israel? Or do they refer to them as Palestinians? I guess they are talking to a non-existing entity that has no name, or at least those that don't like them much don't consider them as such, while in the hearts and minds of others they'r still Palestinians, regardless if they have an internationally recognized state or not.

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. A variety of things

When they have total control of their territory. When they are recognized internationally as such by major nations and the UN. When they are the ones controlling their own borders. Those are a good start.

[Violet_Crumble]

57. Then Israel wasn't a nation thousands and thousands of years ago...

Can't have it both ways....

Violet...

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. Yes it was a nation

Definitions of many things change over time.

[bluesoul]

60. Oh so they

were Israeli even though Israel didn't even exist until after WW2 and the people that migrated from other parts were not there, yet Palestinians who lived there long before many of those that are today in Israel lived, are not a nation? One rules for ones, another of others. This is incredible...

[Muddleoftheroad]

66. You said long ago

Israel had a nation, a king and a people. Then it lost it. Now it has a nation again.

[Lithos]

58. I ask you this.

Whose land is it if can it be if not for the Palestinians?

Jordan who was the last recognized sovereign government has issued essentially a stop claim in order to provide a clear and unfettered "deed" for the founding of a Palestinian nation.

Again, If it does not belong to the Palestinians, then who does it belong to? The best that can be said is that Israel is holding it in trust for the future Palestinian state. However, any machination on the part of Sharon and settlers to breach this trust is a crime in all major legal systems.


L-

[bluesoul]

64. Some

views here regarding Palestinians really do strike me as extreme. I never thought I would be reading such stuff on DU

[Muddleoftheroad]

76. Right now

I would argue a combination of what you say and what somebody like Sharon would say.

Israel ALSO has a claim on the land. A much older claim. A claim that will probably play out in and around Jerusalem. The rest of the settlements could disappear tomorrow for all I care -- as long as they do so NOT as the result of the terror campaigns.

I also agree that the bulk of the land will go and should go to the Palestinian state whenever that occurs. So your concept of holding it in trust is a fairly good one. But how that trust is handled must be up to Israel because security concerns ARE an issue.

And all of that -- the borders, the rights of the new state, the water rights, the air rights, transit from Gaza to the West Bank, etc. -- are things that must be negotiated through give and take. In the meantime, it is territory under Israeli control (that seems relatively indisputable since Israel does control it).

[bluesoul]

78. Israel has NO claim

on the land beyond the one alread given to them after WW2. It is simple land grab, unless you prefer mythology as to international law...

[Lithos]

81. 1967 border

Is the one generally affirmed as determining the legal state of Israel by most International parties. While I do think there should be some changes made to it, land swaps for the most part, these changes should not be conducted in a unlateral fashion as seems to be occuring today.

L-

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

85. Concerning Mythology, Sir

The answer would depend on what ground you find for prior claim by Jews. If you feel that claim rooted in the Biblical account of a land promised to Abraham, then, at risk of some offense to many friends, that is sincerely regretted, it must be said that is rooted in mythology: it is certainly not a belief shared by those who are not adherents of a particular body of religious thought. If the claim is based on the extent of ancient political control by various Jewish kingdoms, for any such antient to the Maccabbees, which was quite well attested by classical authorities, an element of mythology also enters, as there is real ground to suspect certain exaggerations in the descriptions of David's and Solomon's authority. The Maccabbees did rule the whole of the Jordan valley, at least briefly, although it is worth pointing out this was by conquest, and not by voluntary accession of the residents.

In the modern era, there is only this ghost of a claim: that there were some Jewish settlements in areas of the Jordan valley outside the Green Line, and some longstanding Jewish communities similarly situated, such as at Hebron, and that these people were driven out, either during the Mandate, or in the course of the '48 war. The intention of the U.N. partition was clear, and certainly those portions of the designated Arab Zone that remained outside the Armistice Line must be taken as being intended by the U.N. for an Arab state in Palestine, and not as part of the Jewish state. As the Mandate territory was, in essence, the property of the United Nations, assigned to it by the expiring League of Nations, the successsor body had every right to dispose of its property as it saw fit, and its intentions ought to constitute the legal framework of the situation in the modern day.

[Lithos]

82. Israel does control the West Bank

That is without a doubt.

The notion that Israel is managing the West Bank (and Gaza) in trust is important, but with that management control comes some very important responsibilities. While it is reasonable to insure a certain amount of security is maintained until the Palestinians can be trained to assume this responsibility, Israel must also act in a selfless manner to act in a manner to promote the Palestinian's best interest. This also includes handling of resources (water, farmland, etc.), economic developmental efforts (roads, industries, etc.) and population development (education, social and health infrastructure, etc.)

I also do personally agree there should be some negotiated changes in and around some older settlements such as the Jewish Quarter. However, these must not occur unilaterally nor without sufficient recompense being given. Again, the notion of a guardianship is important.

L-

[bluesoul]

84. Excellent point mr Lithos

Israel is an occupying force and has many responsiblities and obligations with it (many of which it does not fulfill). But once it will stop being the occupying force and will have to leave the control and land to the Palestinians to which it belongs. They already have their state and land.

[Resistance]

89. bluesoul

why should Israel stop stealing more? Who's going to stop them?

[Muddleoftheroad]

86. Again,. you and I very close

The only caveat I would urge is the security issue. Clearly, there is one and that is bound to impact Israel's guardianship because Israel must first and foremost be concerned with the lives of its own citizens.

[Aidoneus]

43. why does that even matter?

I don't see why the ownership and stranglehold of some caste of bosses is a needed thing here.. customary, but something to be avoided..

[Muddleoftheroad]

54. It is territory

Nations own territory. If there is no Palestinian nation (and there isn't) who do you think owns that territory. It can't be Jordan, they don't claim it. It's not Britain, they don't want anything to do with it. And it sure as hell ain't the Ottoman Empire who lost it long ago.

That leaves Israel. If it belongs to Israel, then building a wall in the territory is entirely legal, much like building a highway in some areas might include emminent domain.

[The Magistrate]

62. If You Please, Mr. Muddle

You have wandered into a sort of semantic trap here. The concepts of nation and of state, or nation-state, differ somewhat. The people of Arab Palestine are surely a nation, or a nationality: they identify themselves as such, which is really the chief criterion; they are a distinct body of people, who differ from others neighboring them in their detail ancestry and shared history. They do not have a political organization dubbed a state, either by themselves or others. That lack, really, has little bearing on this question. The greatest proportion of land owned in the territories overrun in '67 is privately owned, and thus the question of whether there is a state to own it does not come into play at all. That could apply only to lands owned by one of the various state entities formerly in control of the area, and such lands cannot be too great a proportion of the total, as such land constituted, in the days of the Mandate, no more than a sixth of the total acreage west of the Jordan. Someone with greater knowledge than mine of the detail geography of the area may well correct me, but it strikes me as unlikely that settlements are located even chiefly on such land.

[Muddleoftheroad]

67. No, I respectfully disagree

They are not a nation by any contemporary or modern standard of such. If they are, then dozens, possibly hundreds of somewhat disenfranchised groups are also and they are not.

[bluesoul]

68. Maybe you don't consider them

because you don't like them, that doesn't mean they don't exist or that others don't consider them as such, even Israelis. But I guess you know more then others do...

[Muddleoftheroad]

70. Nope

I don't consider the Basques to be a nation, because they aren't I don't consider the Quebecois a nation, because they aren't. I could go down a list of non-nations and the Palestinians would be just one of dozens or hundreds.

As for the Palestinians, I don't dislike them. I dislike terrorists. I dislike supporters of terror. But I don't dislike the Palestinian people and support their chance for statehood. I just wish THEY supported it.

[bluesoul]

72. So you dislike

75% of Palestinians since you say they support terrorist acts? So you don't hate some just the vast majority of them..ok

[The Magistrate]

69. Again, Sir

You are swapping definitions here. They are not a state; they are a nation. The disenfranched groups of which you speak, such as the Kurds, are in a similar situation: they are nations, but not states.

[bluesoul]

71. Exactly

...

[Muddleoftheroad]

73. They are neither

They are a people. A people scattered across several different states -- just as the Jewish people were. They belong to many nations. They belong to many states. But they are not a nation.

Their sense of collective belonging however does make them a people.

[bluesoul]

74. Excuse me, but

that is pure BS! At least now I see just how extreme the positions of some here are...

[Muddleoftheroad]

77. Extreme?

Saying a non-nation is exactly that is extreme?

One day they will be a nation and when that happens, I will be happy to post here that it is so. In the meantime, it is NOT so.

[bluesoul]

80. You're the one saying it is a non

nation as a staunch pro-Israeli or whatever, many others, even more or less neutral (as Magistrate) would disagree. That should tell you something...

[Muddleoftheroad]

87. Like I said, the Palestinians are a people

They aspire to nationhood like many other peoples who lack both state and nation.

[The Magistrate]

79. Light Begins To Loom, Sir, Thankfully

The concepts of "a people" and of "a nation" are interchangeable, as the concepts of "a nation' and "a state" are not. The Jews, for instance, have always been a nation, even during their dispersal throughout many states. The Basques are indeed a nation, and even, during a brief period in the twentieth century, during the Spanish Civil War, exercised autonomous rule over themselves. Many Quebecois view themselves as a nation, submerged within the federal regime of Canada, and it remains an open question whether that nation will secede from Canada and form itself into a state.

[Gimel]

42. Certainly

This is the situation for a very small number of palestinians who live near the wall and the greenline. Only about 30 acres of land have been taken from the Palestinian side, and compensation for the land is being negotiated. The continuous claims are all out of proportion to reality.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dai]

61. "Base of support"?

Some Palestinians support terrorism, some don't...but they're all treated as second-class human beings.

"Same ethnic group as the terrorists" is more appropriate.

[tinnypriv]

7. Yeah it does

:eyes:

What the heck are you on about? Have you never heard of Jewish by-pass roads???

Jesus.

[JohnLocke]

6. Links, please

There are schools for Palestinians and schools for Israeli Jews.* (link)
...
Israel builds Jewish only highways* (link)
....
Israelis get 6 times more water per person than Palestinians.* (link)
...
The legal system distinguishes Jews from "non-Jews" in many spheres of life including land ownership and access to government services.*(link)
...

[tinnypriv]

8. Go ask the author if you're interested (nt)

[newyorican]

9. Makes me wonder what some people did...

before the Internet. It seems many sat in their easy chairs yelling for the article/book/magazine in question, opened up to the relevant page with highlights no less. The desire to educate oneself is becoming a lost art, or being breed out of the gene pool, or both.

[dai]

14. lol

;)

[tinnypriv]

15. I make it a point of principle to berate "googlers" as much as I can

Whether that is on topic or not...

:thumbsup:

[Violet_Crumble]

22. Link to that, please! Preferably googled!

The desire to educate oneself is becoming a lost art, or being breed out of the gene pool, or both. Link! Link! Prove it! Prove it! ;)


Violet...

[Classical_Liberal]

48. ehem, the quote was from the link provided!

You might try clicking it.

[number6]

92. yes, they do ...

:(

[begruntled]

93. Yes our tax dollar is utilized horrifically

The "realpolitik" has squandered billions and billions and billions of iit on not just our venture in Israel but with numerous paramilitary interventions for decades. My god if we would just work within the area of mutual commerce rather than dominance and competition we could save so much money that can be best spent completely wiping out poverty in Ameria for starters, but that would render our new world slave economy virtually profitless for the handful of elitists raping the world before our eyes.


On another note Mazin Qumsiyeh has a very simple way of putting things very too the point without much hyperbole or histrionics. It is a bit off topic, but here is one of his most recent articles on the Geneva Accord.

http://www.ramallahonline.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1707

[VT70]

95. Our taxes also fund suicide bombers

Some of my taxes also go into Arafat's pocket, so he can direct attacks that bomb buses and kill little children and their mothers.

[Resistance]

96. so ... which do you have a problem with?

One, the other, or both?

[Gimel]

97. Quite dated

That is it's not a recent enough story according to I/P rules. Even considering that you posted this on Oct 22, it is still more than 3 months old. It wasn't noticed then.


Politics: Our taxes fund injustice and apartheid

Posted on Tuesday, July 08 @ 21:03:43 EST by RamallahOnline

"All threads must be based on material originally published no more than 3 weeks ago. The "clock" does not restart if an article is republished."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=21970&mesg_id=21970