Israel Claims Hamas Fired From School As Death Toll Hits 640

[Purveyor]

Israeli mortar rounds blasted a United Nations-run school that had been converted into a refugee shelter for hundreds of Palestinians displaced by the ten-day war in Gaza, killing more than 40 people today.

It was one of three UN schools hit by Israeli ordnance today. The strike against the Fakhora school in the northern town of Jabaliya was the deadliest single attack of an already blood-soaked offensive.

Israeli army officials said that their forces had been targeted by Hamas mortar fire from within the school compound. They named two alleged Hamas militants among the fatalities, Imad Abu Askar and Hassan Abu Askar.

The Israeli army has instructions to attack any position used by Hamas for firing rockets, an Israeli military source told The Times.

The deaths came as the Islamists were pushed back from their usual launch grounds to the east and into the packed metropolis of Gaza City and the surrounding refugee camps.

They pile more pressure on the international community to come up with a swift but durable formula to halt the carnage that has left more than 640 Palestinians dead

MORE...

TIMES UK: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5462298.ece

[HeraldSquare212]

1. The UN person in charge at the school said they were vetting refugees

and that no militants were in the compound. That point keeps getting buried in these stories.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

2. Here you go -

http://uk.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUKN0643074 ...

UNITED NATIONS, Jan 6 (Reuters) - A U.N. official in Gaza said a school where dozens of Palestinians were killed by tank shells on Tuesday was clearly marked with a U.N. flag and its location had been reported to Israeli authorities.

John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, said the death toll in the Israeli artillery strike near the school in Jabalya refugee camp was 30 dead with another 55 people injured

Asked whether Hamas militants were in the area of the Jabalya school at the time of the strike, Ging said it was the scene of clashes "so there's an intense military and militant activity in that area."

He said U.N. staff vetted Palestinians seeking shelter at their facilities to make sure militants were not taking advantage of them. "So far we've not had violations by militants of our facilities," he said.

[HeraldSquare212]

5. It's in the article in the OP, too - but buried in the middle of the second page

[uppityperson]

3. Was it worth it? Even if true, was it worth it oh Israeli army officials?

Was it worth bombing this school/refugee shelter in this way? Was it worth doing this for 2 "alleged" Hamas militants? Even if, say, they were, was it worth it? Was this the only way?

Tragic.

[Hydra]

4. Israel hits 3 UN targets today

And they have the GALL to claim that they were emplacements for Hamas?

That's Gutsy.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. Lets Israel show the evidence

They did show one school being used earlier on You Tube, but nothing from today

[ShadesOfGrey]

7. Yea, that was my first thought when they started with

the "Hamas was hiding there" excuse.

"Tragic" is a spot on description.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. If they were shelling Israeli troops, the answer would be yes

[uppityperson]

25. Kill 40 people and 2 alleged militants. Was this the only way?

See post #23 below for another article with "shelling from street near the school" info: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=240227&mesg_id=240530


Was it worth bombing this school/refugee shelter in this way? Was it worth doing this for 2 "alleged" Hamas militants? Was this the only way?

I say no, no and no.

Killing 40 for 2? No.

Were they shelling from there while it was a refugee camp? No, from a street nearby.

No, no, no.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. The question was asked in the context of and Israeli Army officer

and I still think there answer would be yes, and that Hamas was using them as human shields, (from an Israeli perspective).

From a factual perspective
- Was there shelling coming from there
- Exact Location
- Number of gun crew
- Was it on going or had it happened days ago

and other key items are still really undetermined.

[Bragi]

38. It's still a war crime

You can't kill civilians on the grounds that combatants are hiding among them. It is against the Geneva Convention.

[madrchsod]

6. the idf bombed a clearly marked UN observation post in the last war

the israeli government has a long history of contempt for the united nations and it`s mission

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. With fire finder radar, you can not tell where the UN marked facilities are

Also both Hamas and Hezbollah have launched weapons from schools and other protected areas. Given those two facts, its it any surprise that schools and UN facilities are being hit? Involuntary human shields are not a new concept in the middle east

[Idealism]

11. The UN gave them the coordinates ahead of time of the school to make sure it wasn't bombed

They knew what they were doing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Not sure that matters

[Idealism]

13. Why would that not matter? Because it shows Israel to have no regard for civilians?

John Ging, director of operations in Gaza for UNRWA, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, said the death toll in the Israeli artillery strike near the school in Jabalya refugee camp was 30 dead with another 55 people injured.

snip

He said UNRWA regularly provided the Israeli army with exact geographical coordinates of its facilities and the school was in a built-up area. "Of course it was entirely inevitable if artillery shells landed in that area there would be a high number of casualties," he said.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUKN06430746

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. It doesn't matter because if a facility is being used for military purposes

its a legitimate target.

Consider this...Mortar rounds are coming from Site A that wounding and killing your soldiers. You do not have "eyes" on Site A. Site A is marked as a school. Do you:
A) Let them continue to wound and kill your soldiers
B) Shoot Back
Waiting until you have eyes on Site A is Option A.

That is the fairly simple calculus of ground warfare. In Vietnam, we would not shoot back if it was near a hamlet or village. However, it was about the last time any country showed that kind of restraint. Every other conflict I know of, counter battery fire is the norm.

My example assumes that mortars or rockets were indeed being fired. Israel posted video a few days ago that showed a mortar being fired from a school, so it is happening in this conflict. However, as I write this, I have not seen any video of shooting from this school. The UNWRA rep has said there was no mortars, and that they vetted everyone. Lets see what the Israeli's offer up for their side.

[Idealism]

18. The last known firing from a school was in 2007

But I guess that is enough justification for leveling yet another school.

You can't be sure that the video you watched wasn't from then, either.

I believe the UN over Israel, especially when they have used this excuse every time they have bombed a civilian building. The UN worker in charge said he vetted every member in the camp and that no one there was a militant, I have already heard this story before offered up from Israel in Lebanon two years ago, by the US government in Fallujah, and countless times now in Gaza. I am sick of this horrid excuse.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. I am taking a wait and see position

You are correct, there is no meta data with the current You Tube video and it was not of this school

Israel is claiming that there was shelling from there but has not shown anything that I have seen to prove that

I don't find the UNWRA person particularly pursuasive. Hamas doesn't wear uniforms.

There have been reported neighbors via phone saying that there were indeed mortars (unverified).

The only real fact we have is that it was shelled


Clearly taking a position one way or the other now is clearly premature.

[EFerrari]

31. I do find the UNWRA people persuasive. Amy Goodman has been having them on

and their phoned reports are not in any way hysterical or careless. They don't make big claims or engage in speculation.

[Idealism]

36. I have seen several videos of UNWRA personnel describing conditions

It isn't out of line with what I believe to be happening, reinforced by numerous other well-sourced reports. I take them at their word, they don't have a reason to embellish, where Israel may.

[Shaktimaan]

33. But the incident from 2 years ago was explained thusly.

One of the four UN workers killed in that attack described the situation a few days beforehand. He said that Hezbollah fighters had been using their position as cover and that the IDF bombs and mortars that had fallen near them (which happened on several occasions) were not deliberate targeting but due to tactical necessity.

Nevertheless, in war incidents like these happen. You are giving the IDF way too much credit if you think that they are incapable of making mistakes like this. If that were the case then there would never be any instances of "friendly-fire", would there? Or do you think the IDF is deliberately targeting its own soldiers for some reason?

I mean, if it wasn't an accident and it wasn't due to Hamas fighters firing from that position, then WHY do you believe that the IDF mortared them? Because they hate the UN? To send them a message? Really, how would it benefit Israel for them to attack a UN school?

Incidentally, I don't know why you would automatically believe the UN worker there over the IDF anyway. I'm assuming it was a UNRWA school and that the worker in charge was a Palestinian refugee himself. I just don't see why you would automatically believe one side of this conflict over the other regarding this kind of stuff.

[Bragi]

39. That's simply wrong

It is a war crime to deliberately kill civilians, even if combatants are hiding among them. Read the Geneva Convention.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

41. You are now in the realm of intent and proving that in a combat situation is more that hard.

"deliberately kill civilians" us next to impossible to prove in that situation

Did you choose option A or B?

[Arrowhead2k1]

14. Yeah, a Canadian died in that and no one in this push over country gave a fuck.

Now Canada supports this Israeli action just as much as the US. :mad:

[ohio2007]

8. Mortar Bombs Shot from UN School in Gaza 29 Oct. 2007

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&eurl
I'm sure that was the only instance the school was used for rocket science projects

http://www.reuters.com/article/middleeastCrisis/idUSL05686115

[IndianaGreen]

15. Baghdad Bob said US Marines were committing suicide at the airport

No one believes Israel's PR crap anymore! UN said that they provided GPS coordinates of their schools to Israel.

[azurnoir]

17. So the UN says one thing and IDF or Israel

says another the question is who has more reason to lie, but that Israel suddenly decides to open a corridor for humanitarian aid speaks volumes

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. They both have reasons to lie

[azurnoir]

22. They both have reasons to lie? we know IDF's

that would be the all important PR, but what would be the UN's are you saying that they are sheltering Hamas and allowing them to use refugee's as human shields?

[Sanctified]

34. Well it would not be the first time Palestinians shot mortars from a UN school. n/t

[azurnoir]

23. another version and one that makes sense

Gaza truce proposed after Israeli shell kills 30

Israel's military said its shelling at the school — the deadliest single episode since Israeli ground forces invaded Gaza on Saturday after a week of air bombardment — was a response to mortar fire from within the school and said Hamas militants were using civilians as cover.

Two residents of the area who spoke with The Associated Press by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, where 350 people had gathered to get away from the shelling. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-01-06-23-33-41

[EFerrari]

24. Lots of confusion. Didn't I hear that the first few IDF casualties

were from friendly fire?

[azurnoir]

27. The first was Hamas I believe

but there have been 6 IDF deaths 2 from Hamas and 4 from friendly fire.

[EFerrari]

30. Sorry, I meant IDF deaths and injuries. n/t

[azurnoir]

32. That is what I meant I was not clear

the first Israeli death was due to Hamas and then 4 from friendly fire and 1 more from Hamas

[uppityperson]

26. Near the school. Firing mortars from a street near the school.

Thank you for that article. This is very much not ok.

[azurnoir]

28. Near the school is a different from

in the school with the insinuation that the UN or UNRWA most of whose workers are Palestinian was a knowing party to it.

[uppityperson]

29. Yup. thank you for posting this article.

[Marrah_G]

37. I hope they are haunted every night by the faces of the innocents they are slaughtering

I hope they lie awake tormented by visions of children blown apart, guilty of nothing except being born in Palestine.

Would they care.

I'm honestly not sure.

I think they are seen as less then human.

[conscious evolution]

40. The belief that others are untermenschen

is an old concept in warfare.
The IDF weapons crew who fired upon that school will lose no sleep over it.