'Collaborators' shot in West Bank (by Arafat's Martyrs' & Islamic Jihad)

[papau]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3208025.stm

'Collaborators' shot in West Bank

Gunmen have publicly executed two men accused of collaborating with Israeli intelligence in the Palestinian areas.

The two were shot dead in front of a crowd in the West Bank refugee camp of Tulkarem after the playing of a video tape of their "confessions".

Palestinian gunmen have killed scores of alleged collaborators during the conflict with Israel.

Local security officials said the latest victims, aged 21 and 25, were accused of betraying a wanted militant.
<snip>

[bluesoul]

1. In Israel

There are members of the Knesset that would want to do the same to those of the peace movement (Accord) as they see them as collaborators as well

[Muddleoftheroad]

2. They might want it

But there is a far damn cry from thinking evil thoughts to murder.

[bluesoul]

3. hmm

Rachel Corrie would disagree if she was alive today..

[Resistance]

4. not just Rachel Corrie, of course

Tom Hurndall is brain dead and Brian Avery was shot in the face by a brave IDF soldier. Should the journalists and human rights workers who Israel has murdered be mentioned as well?

[Gimel]

5. This is Palestinian justice

Not the accidental shooting or death of activists or reporters who put their lives at risk. There is no comparison. If I contrasted the deaths of 4 innocent Palestinians in a IDF operation to kill terrorists to the deaths of 21 innocent people in the Haifa restaurant (and over 30 injuries) and no military target at all, you would be indignant.

[Resistance]

14. actually it's Islamic Jihad justice, according to the article

Gee, I am so shocked that you would generalize what members of the militant group Islamic Jihad have done by calling it "Palestinian" justice. Way to go, Gimel. I guess it would be acceptable now to generalize Baruch Goldstein's crime as an example of "Israeli" justice?

As for your next point, why would I be indignant about a comparison of IDF terrorism with Hamas terrorism? I argue pretty frequently here that the terrorism from both sides is just as abominable.

Finally, the death of Rachel Corrie was no accident: four eyewitnesses watching the entire episode say it was intentional. Rachel was murdered by that bulldozer driver, and the only question remaining for me is: who ordered the hit? And you think it was just more "accidental" shootings involved with those other two members of the ISM? Just happens to be peace activists who the IDF hates? Yeah right. The brave IDF murdered Hurndall, shot Avery on purpose, and also guns down journalists intentionally. Why? Because that is what terrorists do - they murder innocent people. Get it through your head.

[The Magistrate]

17. There Is Good Reason For Judging The Death Of Ms. Corrie Accidental, Sir

The witness of her fellows is hardly decisive concerning the motivations, or the sensory perceptions, of the driver. They do not, for instance, report that heard him proclaim an intent to kill, or a jubilation on his part afterwards. They feel sure he saw her, or heard their shouts, but have no particular basis for these beliefs: they have not sat in the cab of the machine in operation, and have no expertise in what can be seen from it, or heard when it is in operation. The driver's testimony is that he approached her, and stopped and backed up when he no longer could see her. It seems from medical testimony that this backing up caused the most harm to her, though it seems to have been intended to prevent her being run over.

[Resistance]

19. come on Magistrate

let's view the whole thing in perspective.

Israel wants the rest of the O.T. That means Palestinians out. That means bulldozing their homes. Which brings about protests from peace activists. Three peace activists, all from the same group, were shot and/or killed within a single month, and to add to the IDF propaganda campaign, they started falsely slandering the ISM as "active supporters" of terrorists (claims that proved to be totally untrue).

So you have Rachel Corrie, run over by a bulldozer, with four eyewitnesses saying it was intentional. Yet the U.S. doesn't dare investigate the incident, instead accepting the official Israeli statement of a "tragic mistake" that could have been avoided had it not been for the peace group getting in the way of dangerous machines.

You have Tom Hurndall, who lies brain-dead in a coma due to an Israeli bullet fired from an IDF soldier. He was shot while wearing a bright orange vest that everyone in the area knows is what the peace activists wear, specifically to prevent them from becoming targets of Israeli gunfire. The Israeli statement? Another "mistake".

Same with Brian Avery. Shot in the face by an IDF soldier. The Israeli statement? Another "mistake".

All three were ISM members. The IDF hates the ISM. Yet the shootings and killings of all three are mistakes?

Tell me Magistrate, what blocks you from admitting to yourself that indeed the IDF are every bit as capable of murdering innocents as are members of Hamas?

[The Magistrate]

20. To Answer Your Question On The Most Basic Level, Sir

It is not my practice to attribute to presumed malice what presumption of blunder and stupidity is adequate to explain. The latter factors, in my experience, far outweigh the former in human affairs.

The I.S.M. make no pretence of neutrality in this conflict, only of a commitment to non-violent means in expressing their solidarity with Arab Palestinians and opposition to Israel's actions. That the government of Israel should view the organization as hostile to it is understandable, and that it embarked on a propaganda campaign of its own to connect the I.S.M. to more violent opponents is only to be expected. To some degree, the practical exigencies of I.S.M. operation within Gaza and other places require a certain cooperation, if not collaboration, with the various armed bodies of militants, as these constitute civil power in those places, and must, too, themselves have some suspicions of these foreigners: it would be far too good a conduit for slipping intelligence agents of Israel into their areas. Therefore it would be child's play for the Israeli government to come up with suffient half-truths to sustain such a campaign of propaganda.

You seem to feel that some order was sent to soldiers on the ground to kill these people, and that strikes me as vanishingly unlikely. It would pass through too many hands and mouths to remain long secret, and the ultimate author of it could never be certain it would be obeyed by the whole chain. There does not seem to be any point to restating my view of the various testimonies concerning the death of Ms. Corrie, while the shootings you reference all took place during firefights of varying degrees of intensity. That is a condition in which people who expose themselves to fire run great risks. One of the activists displayed exemplary courage in seeking to assist children out of the line of fire, by most reports, and if a soldier, would deserve decoration. But that does not mean the round that struck him was aimed at him, or issued from an order to kill I.S.M. activists given to soldiers on the scene.

There have certainly been instances where Israeli soldiers have made criminally sloppy use of lethal force, and even criminally deliberate use of lethal force. It would be amazing, humans and war being what they are, if there were not such occurances in a period of hostilities lasting nigh on three years, and involving many thousands of armed men. It does not seem to me, though, that in these particular cases you are speaking of, it is anywhere near proved that that is the case. In the instance of a demolition operation by Hamas, there is no question whatever concerning its deliberately criminal character.

[Resistance]

24. Just a quick response to your final sentence -

Hamas, we should note, is also not requesting from the United States the gift of billions and billions of dollars in military and economic assistance.

[The Magistrate]

27. What Has That To Do With Anything, Sir?

Certainly assessing whether the law is violated, and to what degree, is independent of that.

[Resistance]

29. The point

is that Hamas has no PR campaign to advertise to a patron that would frown upon intentional murder of civilians and peace activists.

[The Magistrate]

33. Beside Any Conceivable Point In This Discussion, Sir

Hamas does indeed engage in deliberate and wholesale murder of civilians: it boasts openly of doing so, and declares at every opportunity it will continue to do so. It seems to be aiming at a constuency that thinks this is a good and right thing to do, and does indeed collect considerable monies from same.

[Resistance]

37. To be more specific

It is my view that there is a definite GOI strategy which involves engaging in terrorist acts which are every bit as despicable as the crimes of Palestinian terror groups such as Hamas, however in the case of the Israeli aggression there is a massive PR campaign of advertising to the U.S. patron (the taxpayers) that Israel does not target the civilians, that the killings of peace activists are mistakes, that the missile strikes on crowds of people are 'unfortunate' but 'necessary' in the 'war on terror' --- whereas on the Hamas side, there is no need to clean up the perception of the criminal acts it engages in, because it isn't asking a decent populace (mostly decent) for billions of dollars every year.

[The Magistrate]

39. Your View is Understood, Sir

It is not mine, and that is not the result of any propaganda emanating from the state of Israel.

[rini]

45. Once again

your partisanship obscures truth.

[Gimel]

51. I agree with Rini and the Mag

In addition:
Actually, the killings were done by two groups, according to the article:

"A spokesman for al-Aqsa said the masked gunmen who carried out Thursday's executions were drawn from both groups in order to "share the honour".

"According to an Islamic Jihad member who spoke to AP, the two men executed had been "responsible for many deaths in Islamic Jihad and other groups"."

Al-Aqsa is an off-shoot of Fatah, under Arafat's leadership.


Baruch Goldstein was hacked to death by Palestinians at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. What were you saying about Israeli justice?

Just think if Israel let loose about 150 Baruch Goldsteins. That might equal the terror campaign waged on Israel.

[Gimel]

6. There are many misguided

people who support terorism.

[bluesoul]

7. I can't believe my eyes

Peace activists support terrorism? Rachel Corrie supported terrorism? Gush Shalom supports terrorism? They are all "misguided"? Are you sure you're on the right forum?

[Gimel]

9. Not a sweeping statement

You have it right. They are misguided, I said. That means they are not fully aware of what they are doing.

[bluesoul]

11. Oh my

Are you a liberal, progressive or anything related? If you are then pleace explain to me how peace activists (wherever, whenever) can be in your view misguided and WHY? Because they oppose the policy of people like Sharon?

[Gimel]

48. I am not their judge

Personally, I think that they have turned their backs on Israel's security interests. In the valid persuit of trying to promote a better life for the Palestinian people, they become the pawns of the terrorists, and display the statistics in as unfavorable way as possible in order to futher their claims. This gives them credit in the eyes of some in the international community.

[Resistance]

12. Peace activists are misguided people who support terrorism?

Thanks for giving us your, uh, "view" on the matter, Gimel

[Gimel]

49. See my above post, Resistance,

It is not their intention to support terrorism.

[rini]

44. let's not dredge

up that one again.

[yotam]

10. One problem...

There is no death penalty in Israel (yet) - so they can want and want and want some more...

[rini]

43. But they haven't have they?

And if they did, they would be in jail for live.

[Gimel]

8. NY Times report

The NY Times story includes this:

In other developments, an associate of Yasser Arafat said the Palestinian leader was set on edge by an Israeli army raid near his West Bank compound earlier this week. Arafat reportedly clutched a submachine gun as he shouted out orders at security guards and declared that he feels ``the smell of paradise.''
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Israel-Palestinians.html?hp

[rini]

46. thanks for that visual

it made my morning!:nopity:

[tinnypriv]

13. "scores"

In fact, roughly 1-2% of the total fatalities (according to Israeli-based figures).

[Gimel]

52. How to Lie with statistics

Obscuring facts is a favorite here. Now that B'tselem is actually reporting Palestinians killed by PA militants, this is interesting:

In the Territories

"84 Palestinians were killed by Palestinian civilians on suspicion of collaborating with Israel. 18 of them were killed while held in the custody of the Palestinian security forces."

It's interesting in comparison, 170 IDF members have been killed since the Intifada began (Sept 29, 2000).

Of course that's in the territories. The rest were killed in Israel, along with 376 Israeli civilians.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Al_Aqsa_Fatalities.asp


That means, that the Palestinians have killed 50% of the number from their own people as they have killed IDF soldiers. Who's trying to fool whom?

[tinnypriv]

53. Besides the fact your post has nothing whatsoever to do with mine

The 1-2% figure is not from Bt'slem, but ict.org.il. Bt'selm's figures are less than 1-2%.

Moreover, Bt'selem has been reporting "collaborators" being killed by Palestinians since they were founded.

Oh, and I don't think you comprehended the figures you were reading, either, judging by your "50%" comment. :shrug:

[Gimel]

57. Nothing to do with it?

Yet you have made some obvious comparisons. Very funny, indeed.

Although I've reviewed the figures on B'tselem several times over the past year, I've noted that the deaths by one side category was absent. So maybe they posted it elsewhere on the site.

Your figures were from another site? No problem. It's not off by much. I didn't even calculate the percentage, so there is no need to complain. You didn't give a reference, and I didn't assume that you were quoting B'tselem.

50% is an approximation. That is to say, the number of "collaborators" killed is half the number of IDF soldiers killed in the territories. That is a ration of 1:2. Or one third of the over-all murders by the Palestinians was committed on their own people.
Comprendez?

PS 84 (collaborators killed) x 2 = 170 168 IDF were killed in the territories. That's 2 less than twice the number of collaborators killed. Any more questions?

[tinnypriv]

59. "the Palestinians have killed 50% of the number from their own people"

Try reading the next item down from "collaborators" :dunce:

[Classical_Liberal]

15. It's a war

. Collaboration is a death penalty offense in Israel too. The french shaved the heads of prostitutes who slept with Germans after WWII.

[Gimel]

16. Mistaken

Collaboration. There are Israelis who support peace (Peace Now) and Isrelis who become peace activists and even go live with Arafat. None have been given the death penelty.

There is not capital punishment in Israel. Even Igal Amir was given life imprisonment.

[vierundzwanzig]

18. Of course

there is capital punishment in Israel. It is called 'fighting terror'.

That aside: Palestinian collaborators are a big problem. Without them the IOF would have a lot harder time killing children.

[Gimel]

42. There is a captal punishment

But only fore extreme cases, like Eichman. I wonder what would happen if Arafat were tried in Israel?

[Classical_Liberal]

21. Ridiculous! These guys were shot for betraying a militant to the IDF

not living with Ariel Sharon. If those people who defended Arafat betrayed a member betrayed the identity of a mousad agent and got him killed they would be collaborators. If they defended arafat as more than human shields and took up arms against Israel they would be collaborators. Collaboration is a death penalty offense in Israel. The reason defenders of Arafat's life are not getting the death penalty is because their method of defense as human shields in not collaboration.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Classical_Liberal]

55. How is the policy any different from targeted assasination?

? Believe it or not very few people think Israel is helping the Palestinians.

[Gimel]

58. Collaborators

A few Israeli Arabs have been sentenced for collaboration in cases where the defendant assisted a suicide bomber, for instance, driving him accross the border, hiding him from inspection, or giving other assitance. Does that qualify as collaboration in your mind? Collaboration is merely assistance and cooperation. Not necessarily armed and shooting.

[Classical_Liberal]

62. The Israelis dissedents you speak of have not assisted suicide bombers

so they aren't collaborators.

[Gimel]

60. Does Hamas help the Palestinians?

This seems to me to be a more pertinent question.

Are targeted assassinations like murdering collaborators? No. Targeted assassinations are to prevent future attacks at the commander level. Murduring members of one's people as a "collaborator" is say: "this is a traitor to our cause. If you do not show active support for strikes against Israel, you might also come under suspicion."

Another category of "killed by own side" is the suicide bomber, of which there have been over 200 Palestinian deaths by own hand. Some who did not succeed in detonating his explosive, strapped to his own body in a crowded area, did not succeed in killing Israelis. So there are more bombers who died than there were attacks. That means somewhere between 2 and 300 of the Palestinian deaths can be attributed to suicide. (Certainly not to IDF or civilian Israeli actions).

[Classical_Liberal]

61. How do we know the people being assasinated are guilty

? They aren't being tried, and convicted by a jury of their peers. Also it doesn't look like the suicide bombings have stopped, so how the hell can you say it prevents anything.

[Saudade]

22. Good

Palestinians are engaged in a long-term violent and justifiable resistance to a racist colonial power that is the only nation on earth that refuses to declare international borders, because it is expansionist in essence, but lacks the balls to admit it to the world.

It is reasonable and just that a collaborator with the enemy is executed.

We are after justice, without compromise, and the Palestinians should follow the lead of other national liberation movements in recent history, none of which has failed. All have succeeded, and so shall Palestine.

[Darranar]

23. You are speaking on the assumption that these men are guilty...

a premise which is doubtful.

[Saudade]

25. Darranar

I understand that there is a video taped confession.

I do not know why they would execute someone who is innocent, do you?

[Darranar]

28. You should know the number of confessors who have been proven...

innocent. Hamas is more brutal than the IDF in extracting confessions.

They execute them on the oft-chance that they are guilty.

[Saudade]

34. Darranar

Well, I cannot defend the lack of a fair trial and proof of guilt.

My point was this:

The Palestinians are in an absolutely desparate position, thanks to Ariel Sharon.

I really cannot comprehend the situation on the ground, but we should not underestimate the brutality of justice in this situation.

There WILL be justice, sooner or later, and Israel will discover this simple fact, just as South Africa, France, England, America, Germany and other colonialists have discovered, over time.

This is no different, because Israel refuses to recognize one simple fact:

All the military force in the universe cannot ever defeat the human aspiration for freedom and justice, and if the spilling of blood is the price for this lesson, so be it.

[Darranar]

35. And what does all that have to do with collaborators?

[Saudade]

36. Darranar

It has to do with keeping the bigger picture in mind.

I don't know the details of this particular case, but in the larger struggle, any collaborator with Israel should be executed. Period. It's that desparate, unfortunately.

[The Magistrate]

38. You Understand, Sir

The necessities and exigencies of war.

This is precisely why Hamas militants are struck with missiles when it can be done, whether on lonely roads or crowded intersections, and why tanks rumble into neighborhoods and homes bull-dozed to clear fields of fire: where the life of the nation is seen as at stake, these things are done, and there is scant point to complaining of them.

[The Magistrate]

31. Honestly, Sir

Extracting confessions is child's play, at least for the sort of children who pull the wings off flies, and gravitate to security services the world over. How mich weight do you give a confession to Shin Bet?

Reasons for torturing to confession and executing an innocent man run from genuine error to settlement of personal grudge to desire for self-aggrandizement in various forms. On a moment's reflection, you could doubtless think up several more, including sheer sport.

These people might be guilty of what is charged, but there is no compelling reason available to think so.

[sabbat hunter]

54. why execute.....

someone who is innocent. i dont know. why do those same groups send young men and women strapped with bombs to their bodies to blow themselves and tens of innocent civilians up on buses, in nightclubs, on the streets of israel.

terror groups like hamas, islamic jhiad (sp), al asqa murder brigade thrive on killing innocents. that is what terror is about. even if they kill someone who wasnt a collaborator, it scares others into not collaborating.

since they are terror groups, those who collaborate to go against them are doing the world not just the middle east good.


peace
david
:hippie:

[Classical_Liberal]

41. A rebel army without a government will never produce a fair trial either

I am against the death penalty, but let's be realistic. The french resistence shot alot of collaborators without a trial because they had no government with which to try collaborators. This bemoaning the treatment of collaborators who aren't being tried by people who can't try them is a little silly. I believe the Palestinians are justified in wanting Israel out of the territories. On the other hand Israel can try all accused terrorist, but choosed exicution without trial instead. Granted, no terrorist can be tried by a jury of his peers, since Palestinians in question aren't citizens, but oh well. This is obviously an other instance of double standards, that I will yawn at.

[rini]

47. Please

either Arafat is the head of the PA, in which case there is a government (however crooked and murderous) or there is total civil chaos. Which means the Egyption weasel is about as useless as a boar hog with tits? Which is it?

[Classical_Liberal]

56. "Arafat is irrelevant!"

as Sharon says, on top of which if there are israelis troops occupying the West Bank, therefore he is not the government obviously.

[papau]

26. Did any see a trial or Judge - or a defense case presented re collaborator

"justice" - without law - never really seems much more than a crime.

[Darranar]

30. So you're against extra-judicial assasinations?

Good to know.

[Resistance]

32. Wow

The "extrajudicial execution" argument appears to be one only of convenience.

Which is pretty sad, folks.

For the record, I am against both Islamic Jihad executions of collaborators without trial, and I am also against the IDF assassinations of alleged Hamas members without trial.

[papau]

40. I agree - I don't like "wet work" by the CIA or anyone else n/t

n/t

[Gimel]

63. Militants carry out death penelty

So-called collaborators are murdered to put fear into the hearts of the general population. I have no doubt that they were innocent. Someone probably pinned the rap on them in order to look better themselves.