The World's Pornographic Interest in Jewish Moral Failure

[shira]

The World's Pornographic Interest in Jewish Moral Failure
06 Jan 2009 02:55 pm

Okay, yesterday I was depressed. Today, I'm just pissed off. It's absolutely astonishing to me how interested the world is in Israel's failings. This is the source of a bitter but hilarious observation I once heard a Kurdish leader make: He was complaining to me that his people were cursed, and I asked him what he meant: Cursed by geography, cursed by their proximity to Kurd-hating Arabs, what? He said the Kurds were cursed because they didn't have Jewish enemies. Only with Jewish enemies would the world pay attention to their plight.

For the record: I defend Israel's right to defend itself, but I fear that Gaza will quickly become a quagmire. I fear for the lives of Israelis, obviously, but I also fear for the lives of Palestinian civilians -- I have friends there, in harm's way -- in part because the Israeli army (and I say this from personal experience) can be a big, rough bulldozer of an army, and in part (large part) because Hamas terrorists unblinkingly and ostentatiously use their own civilians as human shields. I've seen this up-close, and it's repulsive. One story the media isn't telling, because it's impossible to get this story in these circumstances (especially because Israel stupidly won't allow foreign reporters into Gaza) is how much resentment the Hamas policy of using Palestinians as human shields causes among Gaza civilians. Early reports indicate that Hamas mortar teams were firing from the UN School. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

One more thing, speaking of pornography -- we've all seen endless pictures of dead Palestinian children now. It's a terrible, ghastly, horrible thing, the deaths of children, and for the parents it doesn't matter if they were killed by accident or by mistake. But ask yourselves this: Why are these pictures so omnipresent? I'll tell you why, again from firsthand, and repeated, experience: Hamas (and the Aksa Brigades, and Islamic Jihad, the whole bunch) prevents the burial, or even preparation of the bodies for burial, until the bodies are used as props in the Palestinian Passion Play. Once, in Khan Younis, I actually saw gunmen unwrap a shrouded body, carry it a hundred yards and position it atop a pile of rubble -- and then wait a half-hour until photographers showed. It was one of the more horrible things I've seen in my life. And it's typical of Hamas. If reporters would probe deeper, they'd learn the awful truth of Hamas. But Palestinian moral failings are not of great interest to many people.

http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2009/01/the_worlds_pornographic_intere.php

[babylonsister]

1. So what we're seeing is a mirage, huh.

Sure, reporters would love to probe deeply but they're not being allowed to. Now why is that?

[cali]

2. ugh.

not convincing. And I have no use whatsoever for Hamas or any illusions about them.

[HeraldSquare212]

3. Palestinian Passion Play? Hmmmmm

[bunnies]

4. One time I saw a monkey fly out of my neighbors butt.

I'm series!!!1!!1

[Mojorabbit]

5. Hasn't this been debunked by UN people on the ground?

"Early reports indicate that Hamas mortar teams were firing from the UN School. This shouldn't surprise anyone."

[Hell Hath No Fury]

7. Yup, debunked. eom

[Scurrilous]

13. UN: Israel admits rocket fire was not from within school

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x240958

[DogPoundPup]

35. Israel's harsh measures against demonstrators and objectors

Sie sind eine Minderheit, aber ihre Zahl wächst: Israelische Kriegsdienstverweigerer machen mobil gegen die Militärangriffe im Gaza-Streifen. Der Staat reagiert mit Härte: Demonstranten werden festgenommen, Verweigerer landen im Knast.

TRANSLATION: They are a minority, but their number is growing: Israeli conscientious objectors make mobile against the military attacks in the Gaza Strip. The government responded with a hardness of demonstrators are arrested, objectors land in prison.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,600398,00.html

[High Plains]

6. Jesus Crist (sorry), what fucking tripe!

You're getting desperate. But I understand; it's increasingly difficult to support this.

[azurnoir]

8. I particularly love his semantic hot footing

While he talks about Israelis he quickly switches off to Jews when it comes to public opinion on the invasion. Perhaps we should not watch the news actually I prefer to read mine anyway
Jeffery Goldberg wasn't he the one who supported the Iraq invasion on moral grounds?

[PerfectSage]

9. Israel's curse is the same as America's curse and is the same as the Palestinians curse

Incompetent leadership. If only the Moran's would get a brain.

So Palestinian propaganda consists of taking pictures of dead Palestinians and Israeli propaganda consists of jackasses complaining about Palestinian propaganda?

:rofl: So how did the Palestinian die? And why aren't the Palestinians making propaganda complaining about all the friendly fire IDF casualties?

[anonymous171]

10. The human shields argument is stupid.

The Israelis know that Hamas is using human shields, but they continue their assault regardless. What does that say about Israel? Makes them look worse imo.

[ShadesOfGrey]

12. Yep. And with 30% casualties being children...

I'd expect them to change their tactics a little. Nope, it appears to be acceptable to them.

[Joe the Revelator]

36. You think just because Hamas is morbid enough to use human shields, Israel shouldn't protect its own

people?? and you have no anger towards Hamas for using human shields in the first place? That thought doesn't enter your mind?

[anonymous171]

49. I'm plenty angry at both sides.

Israel is just playing into Hamas's hands with their latest assault. Their overreaction is making the world sympathize with the Palestinians and their Hamas government.

[wellst0nev0ter]

54. Actually, Israel Is Using Human Shields Themselves.

Don't expect anyone in the media to report it.

[breakaleg]

59. I'm sure they'll have a compelling excuse for that.

[Idealism]

11. Any port in the storm I suppose

Sad how some keep defending crimes against humanity.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Goldberg is an abomination.

Shame on him for minimizing Israel's hideous crimes.

Just heard a story on NPR, of all places, discussing how the collapsing children were found near their mothers' corpses, by the ICRC. The survivors were taken to the hospital not by ambulance, but but donkey cart. Why? The IDF refused to allow them to pass.

How dare Goldberg!!

[TomClash]

16. "Palestinian Passion Play" Wow.

Did anyone catch the subtle meaning here? He is mocking the horrible but (to some) holy death of Christ to accuse the Palestinians of manipulating their own dead children. Just incredible.

And somehow, some way, someone might possibly think that the actual death of the child is much more horrible than what happens to that child afterward. Ya think?

This article is not only anti-Palestinian, it is anti-Christian too.

[ShadesOfGrey]

17. Yea, pretty twisted. nt

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoesTo11]

19. Bingo!

My son today asked me if I knew that 2000 people were dying per day in fighting related to the Congo, five million since 2003. Can that be right? Anyway, I hadn't heard much about this at all. What is the difference?

It's not that the people suffering there are African as opposed to Palestinian. You know in general, Americans and Europeans don't give a shit about anyone's suffering. They don't care about Palestinians suffering when it is caused by either other Palestinians (for example, when Hamas kills suspected Fatah supporters) or by any Arab country over the years. They don't care all that much about Darfur. They don't care about AIDS in Africa.

Not to diminish the suffering of everyone who suffers, but the difference is that with Israel/Palestine, the suffering can be blamed on Jews / Israel.

[Mojorabbit]

20. For me it is

because my tax dollars are funding this mess.

[shira]

21. and of course this is propaganda because .......?

The author speaks fluent Arabic, has friends and contacts in Gaza (let's remember that these friends aren't Jews who live in Gaza), he has been there numerous times, and is a vocal critic of Israeli policies.

Yup, total propaganda. :eyes:

It must be forbidden to air Hamas' dirty laundry around some places, huh? Beter to be critical of Israel, first and foremost, ignore or minimize Hamas and their hijinks, and accuse those critical of Hamas as being haters.

[GoesTo11]

23. I don't think Israel should be everyone's fetish, just agreeing that it is

When you have people in Norway and Mauritania and Iran and China and Germany and France and Florida all spending their time protesting Israel, when you have morons on DU exploding in hate for Israel, it's not out of concern for the Palestinians. What the hell does Norway care about the Palestinians more than it cares about Congo or Chechnya or the Kurds or anywhere else in the world? Why does France care? Why Florida? It's because of Israel's involvement. If this conflict were between Jordan and Egypt, no one would care. No one cares what Syria does to Lebanon. There is a curious fascination with Israel. Israel is the celebrity to the paparazzi of nations.

[Recursion]

26. Somehow I'm more or less in agreement with Shira

For example, the UN is already making "War Crimes" noises about this, which on its own is fine by me, but has the UN said a damn word about our war crimes in Iraq?

[EFerrari]

22. The OP routinely conflates the Israeli government with Jews

but that's not an indication that most people do or that we do, thank you very much.

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. One difference - the killers in the Congo don't get 3 billion dollars a year from the US government

or resolutions supporting them passed in the US Congress. You see, this suffering can also be blamed on American politicians.

And yes, we do note the massacres in the Congo - eg http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=3665036 - but if the Israeli government is to be compared with the Lord's Resistance Army, then the whole country would be lost. I can guarantee that no-one on DU has ever defended the LRA.

[GoesTo11]

25. The fetish isn't about US aid

It's about whether Israel lives up to a standard of perfect tolerance and perfectly ineffective military action that the world thinks it should (and that no one else ever intentionally demonstrates).

[ShadesOfGrey]

27. Yea, I use to hold Israel and the US to higher standards...

than terrorist groups like Hamas. Not so much anymore. Come to find out we're terrorists too, but with bigger weapons and PR machines.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. So you're happy to group the Israeli government with the Lord's Resistance Army, then?

OK, then, just as I say 'fuck the terrorist LRA', Fuck the terrorist Israeli government. May they all be thrown in jail by the Israeli Supreme Court.

[GoesTo11]

33. Nope.

I think the Israeli government is doing the best it can in a difficult situation. Far from perfect, but really, I think that it is necessary to stop Hamas from growing into much stronger force with whatever weapons they can get from Iran and with no compunction about any tactic. Israel had a tough decision -- war is not good for them either, but Hamas just kept on showing that they were a growing danger that wouldn't go away. Who wouldn't have done what Israel did? Name a country?

I also think Israel has done what it can to keep civilian casualties down (and Hamas has done what it can to keep civilian casualties up), but once the decision for this kind of military action has been made, there's only so much the IDF can do. Any army in this situation would end up killing some civilians.

War is awful and leads to casualties and suffering. But good countries sometimes have to go to war. Israel is one such good country.

[muriel_volestrangler]

34. The British government didn't do what Israel is doing, as I pointed out 3 days ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=240079&mesg_id=240129

Faced with far worse casualties (for instance, in 1972 Republican paramilitaries killed 249 civilians in Northern Ireland), the British Army killed only a fraction of the people that the paramilitaries, on both sides did. They did not launch an indiscriminate attack on Republican areas.

(Statistics for deaths in Northern Ireland are available here: http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/tables/index.html )

I disagree about Israel trying to keep down civilian casualties. They've killed about 250 children, is a couple of weeks. They don't give a toss. And that means they're not a 'good country' - or good political parties, anyway. Israelis who don't support the attacks can be good, of course.

[azurnoir]

50. Perhaps it in part because the Janjaweed in Darfur

and the warring parties in the Congo do not make any public international pretenses as to how moral their struggle is as far as the fact that most Americans and Europeans do not pay attention is what is more attributable to racism.

and then you try to conflate Jews and Israel so as to say that its not the killing and moral posturing it is antiSematism?

[HeraldSquare212]

56. The difference is, Israel is considered a liberal western democracy.

and thus is held to the standards of liberal western democracies. If you would prefer that we consider Israel a country run by despots and birgands for personal gain and profit, I suppose we could try.

[iconicgnom]

28. OMG, that's repulsive in the extreme.

Blaming Palistinians for using their dead children as "props in the Palistinian Passion Play".

And I thought I heard it all.

[shira]

31. it is a disgusting thing

but why question the source? This guy interviewed Nizar Rayyan, knows Arabic fluently, is vocally critical of Israel, and has friends and contacts still in Gaza.

But then again, as I read your comment - maybe you think it's fine to use dead kids as media props and that Palestinians shouldn't be blamed for doing this?

[iconicgnom]

38. No, I think your claim that the Palistinians use their dead kids as props is disgusting.

I think there's something seriously wrong in the way you think.

Perhaps you should go on a retreat, do some meditation, try to heal yourself. Because what you're saying just isn't healthy.

[shira]

41. still not getting you

AFAIK, it's not Palestinians in general who are in favor of this, but their backwards leadership. Hezbollah did the same kind of stuff 2 years ago. It's disgusting in the extreme and there can be no excusing it as some 'tactic'.

[iconicgnom]

43. It's disgusting that you should choose that argument, as if it demonstrated some "point".

The dead children are dead.
Their families are grieving.

And you have your godforsaken "point" to make.
Lord help us.

[shira]

58. it's disgusting to pretend that using dead kids as props

isn't repugnant.

Muslims honor their dead too, believe it or not. Unwrapping a dead kid and putting the corpse on a pile of rubble waiting for the press to arrive so that they'll get their photo shoot is horrifying.

[iconicgnom]

64. ,,,...shudder...,,,

your line is as creepy as it gets, and I've read some creeped out "arguments" over the years.
Now I'll hit "ignore".

[Joe the Revelator]

37. People are blaming Hamas, not Palistine

The fact that the Palestinian people choose to elect Hamas to represent them is regretful.

[iconicgnom]

39. I don't care who you say "people blame". n/t

[Joe the Revelator]

40. I understand that, because its quite clear that your mind is made up, and you have no interest in

facts.

[iconicgnom]

45. About who you say "people blame"? Right, gimme a break from your "facts". n/t

[azurnoir]

51. Puleez the average American does not separate the two

what you see here is not the average American so do not even try to pretend.

[The Second Stone]

30. Dead bodies are not pornography

to most people. Sexy nude pictures are pornography. The Israeli war against Palestinians is a crime against humanity. The US should stop funding Israel.

[shira]

32. this isn't pornography?

"Once, in Khan Younis, I actually saw gunmen unwrap a shrouded body, carry it a hundred yards and position it atop a pile of rubble -- and then wait a half-hour until photographers showed. It was one of the more horrible things I've seen in my life."

-------------------------

Assuming the above claim is true, you think the act is okay?

[TomClash]

53. Here's Goldberg's Wiki entry

Note that he was a prison camp guard while in the IDF, a cheerleader for the Iraq War and a James Woolsey favorite. Another neo-con from Long Island - what a surprise.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Goldberg

[bunnies]

65. it would take a seriously fucked-up person to consider that 'pornography'.

Like... Ted Bundy levels of fucked up. Seriously.

[Alamuti Lotus]

42. Grotesque, as can be expected. nt

[scarletwoman]

44. Jeff Goldberg can eat shit and die.

How the hell does HE know how Palestinians feel: One story the media isn't telling, because it's impossible to get this story in these circumstances... is how much resentment the Hamas policy of using Palestinians as human shields causes among Gaza civilians.

So, if the media "can't get this story", from whence does he draw his conclusions if not straight out of his ass?

sw

[shira]

46. sigh

Goldberg speaks fluent arabic, unlike most foreign journalists - been to Gaza many times, has sources and friends in Gaza who he speaks to regularly by phone or email, and interviewed Hamas bigwig Nizar Rayyan.

Why shouldn't he be trusted?

You think Gazans volunteer for, or enjoy, being used as human shields by Hamas?

[scarletwoman]

47. It means nothing. He's a neocon, he's been a neocon for years. He's a right wing hack.

I have zero respect for right wing hacks. I've known about Jeff Goldberg for years -- a big cheerleader for the Iraq invasion and occupation, a big cheerleader for U.S. Imperialism, a big cheerleader for torture and everything Bushco.

I know who my enemies are, and Jeff Goldberg is right up there on the list. You wanna defend right wing assholes like him, go ahead. I'm not about to give an inch to people who are the enemy of enlightenment and progressivism.

And I'm certainly not going to play your game of moral relativism. If Israel truly had the moral high ground, then they wouldn't be murdering children, PERIOD.

sw

[azurnoir]

48. So does Robert Spence it means little

AS for goldberg again did he or did not defend the Iraq war on moral grounds? As far as being used for human shields it isn't working to well is it?

[shaayecanaan]

52. Lazy, pathetic, self-indulgent thinking...

You can point to numerous examples where white Western countries have been held to far higher ethical standards than Israel.

As someone has already pointed out, the British used far more restraint in dealing with Irish Republicans than Israel does with the Palestinians, yet the British were criticised anyway.

As for South Africa, the terrorist wing of the African National Congress in South African staged numerous massacres of white civilians during the apartheid era, as did the military wing of the Pan Africanist Congress. Black terrorists even landmined areas in an attempt to randomly kill white civilians.

One of the reasons that white police fired on the crowd at the Sharpeville massacre was that a black mob had killed a group of nine white police two weeks earlier and the police were nervous. Yet the world was unanimous in criticising the apartheid regime. The small amount of white deaths was not deemed to be important.

Why was terrorism not an excuse to postpone the legitimate aspirations of black South Africans? It certainly has been thus for the Palestinians.

At least 400 people who died in the first intifada were unarmed demonstrators, fired upon by IDF troops with live rounds. Why was Israel so scarcely criticised for this compared to the white South Africans who killed 69 unarmed demonstrators at Sharpeville?

It all boils down to this: Why can't the left speak clearly and unashamedly on the subject of Palestine, the same way it spoke clearly and with a united voice on Northern Ireland and South Africa?

[TomClash]

55. Burning bodies

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israeli shelling ignited several buildings, including a U.N. school, in southern Gaza on Saturday, killing a girl and severely burning 49 other people, local hospital sources said.

The girl died of burns from a fire that the shelling started near the city of Khan Younes, sources at the city's hospital said.
Meanwhile, Hamas militants fired 20 Grad long-range rockets into Israel on Saturday, injuring four civilians, according to an Israeli Defense Forces spokesman.

And the Hamas commander in charge of launching rockets into Israel from the Gaza City area was killed Saturday by Israeli ground fire, the IDF said in a statement.

Amir Mansi was spotted firing a rocket Saturday from the Jabel Rise area, east of Gaza City, during a ground force operation, the IDF said.

Israeli forces opened fire, killing Mansi and wounding two other Hamas operatives, who were captured, the Israelis said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/10/israel.gaza/index.html

I wonder if Jeffrey Goldberg thinks the severely burned girl who died is "a more horrible thing" than photographing dead bodies.

[shira]

61. so let's get this straight

Put yourself into the same situation. You don't really have a problem with someone using your own dead child as a prop for a photo shoot? Unwrapping the shrouded kid, placing it on top of a heap of rubble, waiting for about 30 minutes until the press arrives for its photo op?

No problem with that?

[TomClash]

63. So let's get THIS straight

Killing children is more horrible than photographing them after they die. Is that too hard for Jeffrey Goldberg to comprehend?

[breakaleg]

57. So the problem isn't the hundreds of people Israel killed, it's that they aren't buried quickly

enough to suit Israel? Gee. I'm sure they are so very sorry. I know I am.

[shira]

60. did you read the article?

how would you like it if it was your dead kid, whose corpse is wrapped in a shroud, and eventually unwrapped by someone else and put on a pile of rubble - lying there until the press shows up for their photo shoot?

It would explain quite a lot if this procedure isn't disgusting to you or any of the "bash-Israel" crowd here.


on edit:
Why do I get the feeling you would bash Israelis if they decided to do the same for PR purposes?

[breakaleg]

62. Yes I did. The bigger issue is that there are many many dead people killed by

Israel, and for what? The upcoming election? These people are dead and now Israel is complaining that pictures of their crimes are getting out. And then we read about how moral Israel is.

[Vegasaurus]

66. But the 11 million Muslims

killed by other Muslims, is barely a blip on the radar screen on the Israel haters.