Video Reveals that a Lack of Moral Center Is Central to Hamas's War Strategy

[Vegasaurus]

From the Huffington Post, not some right wing rag:

The whole world is quick to condemn Israel for civilian deaths in Gaza, but there is utter silence over Hamas's blatant disregard for the lives of its own citizens. It is an unfair double standard, which should come as no surprise, since Israel is always held by the world to unfair double standards, asked to endure things (like rocket attacks on its citizens) without reacting that would be asked of no other nation.

But once I got past feeling ill as I watched a terrorist organization herd its population toward the site of a potential bombing, it occurred to me that the video really demonstrated that to support Hamas over Israel, you have to leap through a moral looking glass, where right is wrong and wrong is right.

I say that because the video crystallized something for me: That Israel has a moral center and a sense of right and wrong, while Hamas completely lacks either. Don't agree with me? That's okay, because you know who does? Hamas.

I'll explain. Hamas's recognition that Israel, as a nation, cares about the lives of innocent civilians and has an innate moral code, while Hamas does not, is the center of Hamas's war strategy. Hamas not only directs its population to sites of potential bombings, but it uses traditionally civilian locations, like mosques, schools and hospitals, as sites at which it can store and launch weapons and hide its leaders. For that strategy to work, it involves two basic assumptions by Hamas:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html

[mzteris]

1. who is mitchell-bard?

Welcome to my web site. I am the Executive Director of the nonprofit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE) and a foreign policy analyst. I am also the director of the Jewish Virtual Library. In my spare time, I am a writer, lecturer and commentator. www.mitchellbard.com/

[Vegasaurus]

3. So what?

This was posted on a very liberal website, not "Little Green Footballs".

[mzteris]

4. like my momma always used to say

"consider the source . . . "

'sides - just 'cause it's on huffpo doesn't make it gospel, does it?

You make it sound like just because it's on huffpo it's above reproach or something, but you still have to look at WHO wrote the piece, and WHY. And therein I think you'll see the inherent bias.

[Vegasaurus]

8. Did you happen to watch the video?

Hamas clearly has shown themselves to be nihilists, who show no care for the lives or welfare of their citizens.

They are willing to use them as human collateral against Israel, forcing them to be "martyrs", even those who would rather live in peace and security.

If you think this is democracy, you are seriously deluded.

[Chulanowa]

13. Pretty obvious that YOU didn't watch the video, Vegasaurus

If you want to swallow bullshit, that's your prerogative, but don't try to tell the rest of us that it's ice cream.

[Bolo Boffin]

15. Here's another video for you to watch:

Hamas soldiers grabbing children and forcing them to be human shields.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE

You might want to check your Hamas ice cream dish.

[soulcore]

19. And here are a few videos for YOU to watch.

Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as Human Shields
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNVCE

More footage of Israelis using Human Shields in Nablus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1LfZlRNdsQ

I won't hold my breath for a response.

[Bolo Boffin]

22. From 2007, and the commander authorizing things like that was reprimanded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/world/middleeast/19briefs-general.html

Got anything from this year?

[soulcore]

27. Have any proof it's still not going on? Didn't think so.

The death toll kinda' speaks for itself.

"At least 814 Palestinians, roughly half of them civilians, have died since war broke out on Dec. 27, according to Palestinian medical officials. Thirteen Israelis, including 10 soldiers, have been killed." - CNN

A little too close to the http://giyus.org">Megaphone perhaps?

[Bolo Boffin]

28. Have any proof that it is? Didn't think so. n/t

[Chulanowa]

32. My ice cream dish has vanilla bean ice cream in it, thanks

So a 17-second video with no sound on it depicting two guys tugging kids around for some reason?

Okay, so I'll bite. Let's assume these two kids are being used as human shields. This brings two questions to mind.

One, why aren't the masked men hefting the kids up to protect their torsos? I don't care how nice you think your calves look, if you're going to use a kid as a human shield, you should at least do so effectively, right?

Two, if these men are under fire, then aren't the kids already in danger, as are the rather large groups of bystanders present?

Like I said, two questions.

[GoesTo11]

34. Watched it. So what's wrong with that?

Aren't they using the children as human shields in order to liberate those same children? It was kinda cute how the second kid looked like a rag doll when the Hamas guy was pulling him along.

[azurnoir]

43. First off where was the fire coming from?

In the first sequence the masked guy simply moves the kid who appears to be an older child and in the few seconds it is impossible to tell what is going on human shield or getting him off the street in the second one I must say that if the kid was being used as a shield why was he not held in front of the guys body, there were two crowds the guy picks the kid up and moves him from one crowd to the other no one in either group appears to trying to hide or find cover

This is not to say that Hamas is innocent however this evidence is weak at best I watched the video several times and got a second opinion from a household member who does have a military background and it was the same you can't tell what is going on there

[Vegasaurus]

17. If you want to believe that Hamas are "freedom fighters"

that is your prerogative.

I say that they are murderous nihilists, who are at least partially responsible for the deaths of every one of those children.

By provoking and continuing to provoke Israel with bigger and more dangerous weapons, and then coaxing their civilian population to be human shields, they might as well have dropped the bombs themselves.

[Chulanowa]

29. I love your method of arguing

First you have to pretend that I said something I didn't. Then you try to argue against that... and even then you have to resort to misinformation. It's hilarious watching you lie to yourself in an effort to convince yourself you're right.

Where did I say Hamas is an organization of "freedom fighters"? I actually haven't, a fact you seem to have missed. What Hamas is, however, is the duly elected government of the people of Gaza. As such is has an obligation to fight against an attacking, invading force.

It's also worth noting that by conducting a number of assassinations and strikes against Fatah party members on November 4th-5th in Gaza, Israel was the one who broke the cease-fire with Hamas, further aggravated by the border blockade, which is, if you didn't know, an act of war. Given these facts, I'm not exactly sure how you can keep accusing Hamas of "provoking" the current situation when the fault clearly lies with Israel in breaking their own cease-fire and declaring war on Gaza. Apparently you expected Hamas to just roll over for it.

Once again, these "human shields" volunteered to help their neighbor, and the tactic worked - he still has his house, his kids still have a place to sleep. Good on him and his neighbors.

[mzteris]

69. i think desperate people

do desperate things.

[Donnachaidh]

2. and the propaganda churns on

Yeah yeah, we get it -- Israel right, even though they are practicing ethnic cleansing. Hamas wrong, because they are a democratically elected group that is putting itself in the way of Israel's empire-building and the prospect of Israel grabbing the oil rights given to the Palestinians....

[The Magistrate]

5. As a Matter Of Curiousity, Ma'am

Do you think the technique evident in the video presentation would work well against an enemy with no scruples concerning the death of non-combatants?

[provis99]

7. The Israelis HAVE been killing civilians

or have you not paid any attention to the war? Dumbass comment for you to make.

[Vegasaurus]

10. Yes, Israel has, and unfortunately will continue to

the death toll will get much higher, since Hamas has announced that it will never agree to a ceasefire.

Israel isn't just going away, as long as smugglers are bringing in larger and more dangerous rockets.

If they won't stop their rockets, Hamas will be responsible for the deaths of many civilians.

A sane government, not a bunch of nihilists, would realize that you don't provoke war with a more powerful country, and then continue to put your own civilian population at risk, because of your own death wishes.

[The Magistrate]

20. Evidently, Sir, the People Promoting the Technique Have Thought It Worked

Else they would not have employed it: the video clip is, after all, no new revelation, but merely one instance of this type.

And the question was whether someone thought the technique evident in the video presentation would work well against an enemy with no scruples concerning the death of non-combatants. To say someone has some scruple over something does not mean that person will never do it, or that it will never be the end result of that person's actions. All of the various fulminations on this topic come down to questions of assessing intent, and the degree to which malice is present in the intent behind actions. Very little of the commentary encountered seems to me to even reflect any serious attempt at trying honestly to do that, but rather simply reflects reflexive impositions of preconceptions and predispositions onto whatever event has arisen to provide occasion for doing so.

[shira]

56. well said, sir....but remember when you speak your mind a base man will avoid you

This video shows very clearly that Hamas - as well as Palestinian civilians - are expecting, based on past experience, for Israel to act according to proper and ethical rules of conduct. It's great this article now exists as it conveys - better than I'm capable - exactly the main point I've been trying to make here for several days now.

Why else would Palestinian civilians, like mothers and their children, volunteer to stand on rooftops of targeted Hamas buildings unless they were all suicidal? The fact that within 5 minutes, volunteers were called and they immediately rushed to the top of the targeted building shows that this tactic had worked before. The fact that it certainly did work in this instance shows that it serves future purposes as well - and would be repeated.

But some "progressives" here desperately need their "Israel = Evil" narrative. Israel doesn't care about civilians, etc.

Here they have proof-positive directly from Hamas that Israel's morals and ethics are used as a weapon against the Israeli military.

And as you said, this Hamas tactic simply wouldn't work against an enemy with no scruples. Palestinian mothers and their children wouldn't suicidally volunteer and rush to rooftops of targeted buildings. No one would.

It's embarassing to see so many "progressives" here act like closed-minded RW'ers with preconceptions and predispositions that cannot be changed by any amount of fact. Like many RW fundamentalists, they are angry simpletons who more closely resemble Islamophobics, whose irrational views of Muslims and Arabs mirror their own irrational views of Israel, it's leaders, and its pro-Israel advocates.

[ConsAreLiars]

52. That form of nonviolent resistance has been used by Gandhi

and others. But you are right, this time they face an enemy with no scruples, and although the monsters who control that army decided against the bad PR in that case, they have slaughtered, as best we can tell, around a couple hundred children, a couple hundred women, a couple hundred male non-combatants, and maybe a couple hundred resistance fighters. They used terrorism against the British. It worked. They, in alliance with the fascist Falangists slaughtered thousands in the refugee camps in Lebanon. It seemed to work for a while. They slaughtered thousands in South Lebanon in a failed to defeat Hezbollah. It didn't work. The evil they do, and have been doing for decades, is obvious to anyone who is not bound by tribalist loyalties and whose views are not limited to parroting the corporatist pro-imperialist talking points.

Maybe they should try different tactics, as the peace movements in Israel wish, rather than the all-too-familiar "just kill 'em until they surrender" model we here have seen tried in the US with the same results. Maybe they shouldn't have supported the growth of Hamas in the attempt to weaken the PLO in the first place, but it's a bit late to undo that. They created this situation, and the blood of those they slaughter will be hard to wash from their hands.

(edit typo)

[Bolo Boffin]

9. Israel isn't practicing ethnic cleansing.

That's why the Hamas strategy of forming human shields works. They know Israel is reluctant to kill civilians.

Here's another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTu-AUE9ycs

And another one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J08GqXMr3YE

[High Plains]

48. Israel did its ethnic cleansing a few years back. Now it's just mopping up.

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/mideast/palestine/refugeeFacts.html

http://mondediplo.com/focus/mideast/a2335

[shira]

65. the only ethnic cleansing performed recently was 2005 Gaza

when all its Jews were forced out by Israel.

If you mean 1948, then why did Israel do such a terrible job not expelling its Arab residents within the green line, whose descendants make up 20% of the Israeli population now?

Here's something to chew on.

What if there really was no forced ethnic cleansing by Israel in 1948? And Arab Palestinian leaders are humiliated to admit this? To appear more butch among their peers, what if they need stories of ethnic cleansing and massacres by Israel so that their humiliating losses appear to be founded on realizations that their enemy is as brutal as any other neighboring Arab military or terrorist regime? Why bring up questionable Deir Yassins from 60 years ago, fake Jenin massacres, al-Dura hoaxes, etc.? Pallywood shouldn't be needed if the facts can speak for themselves, right? Why bring up bogus intentions of genocide and ethnic cleansing if the facts speak for themselves?

Now check out the video from the OP.

What if it's Arab shame and humiliation that prevents them from admitting that what they are facing isn't remotely the evil that you and others take on presumptions and preconceptions?

What if you're one of their dupes and they laugh at your ignorance?

[Vegasaurus]

71. 11 million dead muslims

killed by other muslims.

Now that is some genocide.

[ixion]

6. "Israel has a moral center"

...


...


:rofl:

yeah. right. whatever. :eyes:

[Chulanowa]

33. Maybe he meant "nougat"? n/t

[Chulanowa]

11. I don't think Mitchell Bard actually watched the video

The guy's neighbors piled into the house to prevent its destruction. It worked. Nobody was "herded", people weren't misled, the announcement was "My house is about to get royally fucked" and the guy's community responded.

The same thing has been done here in the states to preserve everything from condemned homes to monuments to trees.

And while Mr. Bard is pounding his fist in righteous indignation, I have to think... Why did Israel need to bomb the home of Abu Bilal al-Jaabeer and his children in the first place? After finding out that a man's home was a target even while he and his children were inside, how can Mr. Bard then follow up with a statement such as "The Israelis think it's wrong to bomb traditional civilian areas"?

[Bolo Boffin]

14. The Israelis CALLED Mr. al-Jaabeer to tell him to get out!

That's the only reason he had five minutes to get a human shield together. Is that the action of a bloodthirsty army trying to kill as many civilians as they can? Is that the action of ethnic cleansing?

And the end result -- they didn't bomb the house! If they'd just wanted to kill him and his family, they would have just bombed. They wouldn't have called him. Do you understand that?

[Chulanowa]

24. Where did I say it was the action of a bloodthirsty army?

Don't put words in my mouth.

But since you want to talk about it, there's a difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide, boloboffin. Genocide demands the mass murder of a particular people, while with ethnic cleansing, killing them is optional, the main goal being to get them to go away.

Now let's think for a moment. If Mr. al-Jaabeer hd done as the phone call said, just grabbed his kids and hauled ass, where would he be right now? He'd be homeless 'cause Israel would have bombed his house. How many other Gazans do you suppose have had their homes bombed? With as often as people such as yourself and Vegasaurus hypocritically point to the "get the fuck out" phone calls from Israeli forces as a sign of how nice the Israelis are, I imagine there must be a lot of houses getting that treatment. All those people are homeless. Where do they go after that?

Israel is clearly targeting people's homes - You, Vegesaurus, and Mr. Bard are all agreeing with that fact, it's indisputable. People's houses are getting blown the fuck up. What do you think happens to the people who used to live in those homes? Do you think that a brand new house just magically appears for them a few minutes later like in a video game?

No, those people are going to be homeless. Mr. al-Jaabeer, his children, and heaven only knows how many other families like them, would be perpetually on the move. A transient population of Gazans, growing by fours and fives every time Israel delivers a "get the fuck out" phone call.

So, no, Israel wasn't out to kill as many civilians as possible. But the intent is pretty clear in their choice of targets - and it certainly is ethnic cleansing. I expect after a few more days of Israel plowing Gaza under, Israeli soldiers will be removed from the Egypt-Gaza border, and they'll let Egypt deal with the onrushing human flood.

[Bolo Boffin]

25. "by fours and fives" -- at that rate

Gaza will be ethnically cleansed by 2050. You must grab hold of some perspective.

[Chulanowa]

30. You want some perspective?

Add in the people who are hauling ass because their neighbor's house is getting bombed, or have their own houses destroyed in the process (it can be pretty messy, blowing up a house, pone to damage to other structures). others fleeing on general principle. Thousands searching for hospitals, more thousands looking for a safe place with food and water. It's only going to be a few more days of this before we see the deaths hit four digits, and I'm not even sure what the non-fatal casualty count is up to now. Mix in the deliberate targeting of civilian infrastructure - electricity, water, schools, roads, police - and you're left with a big, unlivable mess.

You're not that sharp if you think the only people affected by this are the families losing hteir homes from direct strikes. And once again I ask you, why are homes being targeted?!

[Bolo Boffin]

35. Hey, I quoted you. That was your argument. Now you're moving the goalposts.

I don't blame you. The argument was ridiculous.

Now why are houses being targeted? Because they are the houses of suspected Hamas leaders.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/new-israeli-attacks-target-hamas-homes-1221806.html

After destroying Hamas' security compounds, Israel turned its attention to the group's leadership. In airstrike after airstrike, warplanes hit some 20 houses believed to belong to Hamas militants and members of other armed groups, Palestinians said.

They said the Israelis either warned nearby residents by phone or fired a warning missile to try to reduce civilian casualties. Israeli planes also dropped leaflets east of Gaza giving a confidential phone number and e-mail address for people to report locations of rocket squads. Residents stepped over the leaflets.

Israel used similar tactics during its 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Most of the targeted homes today belonged to activist leaders and appeared to be empty at the time, but one man was killed in a strike in the Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza.

So there is not an ethnic cleansing going on at all. It is not the Palestinian people in general being targeted. Israel is not trying to get the Palestinians to leave Gaza. But Hamas? Yes, Hamas is being targeted. Now until you can demonstrate how Hamas membership is an ethnicity or genetically determined, you don't have a point.

[Chulanowa]

36. You didn't actually

I said the transient population of Gaza is growing by fours and fives each time these phone calls are delivered. Not that that was the sole source of said population.

"A transient population of Gazans, growing by fours and fives every time Israel delivers a "get the fuck out" phone call."

Much as your assertion that I said this was the action of a "bloodthirsty army" you are again, putting words into my mouth. I think you should stop that and instead make an attempt to argue against what I am saying.

...And did I really just see the phrase "fired a warning missile"? :rofl:

[Bolo Boffin]

38. Actually, I did. I used your words and used your meaning. That's called quoting you.

Now you can cry about it if you like, or deny reality all you want. But the fact is, I quoted you. And now you're moving the goalposts. As I said, I don't blame you. The argument was ridiculous. But covering your tracks in such a hamhanded way, that's worthy of a :rofl:.

[Chulanowa]

39. Actually you sampled from a quote.

Then proceeded to argue against what you think that sample, out on its lonesome, meant.

Are you able to argue against my entire statement or are you only able to rebutt those four words you selected?

[Bolo Boffin]

41. The part that showed your argument to be ridiculous, and so you moved the goalposts.

I understand. We all understand that. Nobody blames you for abandoning that position.

You said that Israel was engaged in ethnic cleansing. You did this on the basis of "fours and fives" at a time. I pointed out that was absurd. You then moved the goalposts and claimed all of this other stuff. Yet Israel is not indiscriminately calling up anybody in Gaza and telling them to get the fuck out. Just Hamas leaders. So, again, you haven't shown ethnic cleansing at all, not unless membership in a political party is ethnic or genetic in essence. But where can you move the goalposts now? Well, I guess you could, but it sure is a lot more fun for you to attack me and play word games, isn't it?

[Chulanowa]

44. That was not my position

And just because you say so does not mean it is. My statement was that this situation adds to the problem "in fours and fives" - do I need to re-quote myself?

I'm not going to pat you on your head and tell you that it's okay, I understand why you won't argue against what I actually said, and that nobody blames you. I do understand why you won't argue against what I actually said, and that's because you can't. You can't tell me that this does not add to the problem in the exact manner I described, and instead to defend your own senseless position that everything is hunky-dory, you have to pretend there's not a problem. I get that, I understand that, you have to lie to yourself for your own propaganda to make sense, that's clear. But I do have to blame you, because it shows us all what an ignorant person you are, it puts on display that you will willingly deceive yourself if you think it will deceive others, and it demonstrates that you are either unwilling or incapable of accepting anything that doesn't come to you from the ynet mailing list.

No, Israel is not "indiscriminately" making calls. It calls, as you said, "suspected Hamas and activist leaders." I'm sure that, as an apologist you're also quite aware that Israeli forces also drop pamphlets bearing the same "we're coming, get the fuck out" message on entire villages and neighborhoods. In fact that's another nerf bullet in your arsenal of telling us all how nice and people-friendly the IDF is being.

Though I do have to wonder... Israel has stated it wants to exterminate Hamas. How does giving evacuation notices to people it suspects of being Hamas leadership accomplish this goal? As a warfare tactic it really seems lackluster, especially given that in the past, Israel has never shown much concern for "collaterals" killed during assassination strikes against headers of Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, or the PLO...

The ethnicity in question is "Arab", boloboffin. Targeting the elected leadership of the Arabs of the Gaza strip is simply one facet of the whole. But please, go ahead and misrepresent me some more. It's all you've got to fall back on in this fight.

[Bolo Boffin]

46. "The ethnicity in question is "Arab", boloboffin."

This is, of course, a factual inaccuracy. Israel is not calling up the homes of random Arabs and telling them to get the fuck out. They are calling up the homes of Hamas leaders and telling them to get the fuck out. Rant all you want about me being an Israeli apologist (I actually say a plague on both their houses), but that is indeed what Israel is doing, and all your factual inaccuracies about ethnic cleansing have no evidence to back them up.

[Shaktimaan]

49. If this is ethnic cleansing...

then why are people being prevented from leaving Gaza?

There are several other things that would strongly suggest that this is not ethnic cleansing.

• Why would Israel do this? If Israel were really trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza then there would have to be a real reason for it, right?

• Israel is a democracy with a strong, free press. If the Knesset made a decision to ethnically cleanse Gaza then why haven't we heard about it? Who made the decision?

• If this policy was given to the army then why haven't we heard about it? No one in the army works for a newspaper? The whole army supports this policy?

• Why would destroying a few houses convince 1.5 million people to leave?

• Where would they go? How can you ethnically cleanse people if they have nowhere to go?

• Egypt has been cooperating with Israel. That relationship it critical for Israel. Why would Israel create a situation that would destroy it?

• If Israel was going to ethnically cleanse Gaza then why did they spend so much money and political capital to leave themselves just recently?

• Israel would never, ever, ever so this without the prior support of the US government, aka: the president himself. Do you think Obama would approve this?

• If Israel wanted to ethnically cleanse Gaza, why did they wait 60 years to do it? Why not do it at some earlier time when they didn't have anything to lose?

• If there was enough political support within Israel to actually force the settlers to completely leave then how could there be enough juice to conduct an ethnic cleansing campaign?

[Vegasaurus]

54. This is what is ridiculous about words like "genocide", "apartheid" "ethnic cleansing"

If Israel really wanted to do any of those, they could have completed them decades ago, and in fair fewer than two weeks of war.

The fact that so few Palestninans have actually been killed over 60 years of war and unrest is a testament to Israel's restraint.

In a genocide, you don't have the population increasing at a rapid rate, as it in in the territories.

And surely, Israel would have to do a better job of ethnic cleansing than it is doing, if the Arab population will surpass the Jewish one in several decades.

Israel just stinks at ethnic cleansing and genocide!

[shira]

57. damn, Israel is incompetent at genocide, ethnic cleansing, etc...

:eyes:

Assuming those are the goals and Palestinians are increasing at a much faster rate than Israelis, despite recent "genocidal" campaigns such as the current one, and that Israel pulled all Jews out of Gaza just 3 years ago - I'd say Israel is doing a MONUMENTALLY bad job in the genocide and ethnic-cleansing departments.

Sometimes, it's like trying to argue logically with RW fundamentalists, isn't it?

Isn't there a better forum for closed-minded progressives who can battle it out to the end with their RW counterparts who are equally as intractable, regardless of the facts?

[Chulanowa]

68. I'm getting kind of sick of this line

"The fact that so few Palestninans have actually been killed over 60 years of war and unrest is a testament to Israel's restraint."

Really. As of 2007, "so few Palestinians" numbered at 1.8 million.
Know how many Americans have lost their lives to murder in the same period of time? 827,060
"But Israel and Palestine are at war!" Well okay, let's add the combined death totals from the Vietnam and Korean wars. American losses are now up to 939,306.
Just for the hell of it, let's stir in World War 2. The number is now up to 1,357,806.
Damn, that still doesn't reach the Palestinian record. Better add both Iraq wars and Afghanistan to that number! We're now up to 1,362,639 dead Americans.
What the fuck, right? I guess we'd better jump our asses all the way back to 1914. If we add in World War 1 casualties for the US, our total number of deaths so far is... drumroll please... 1,479,347

So! In the last 60 years, roughly 1,800,000 Palestinians (have I mentioned that's Amnesty Int'l's lowball? It could be as high as two million) have died from the conflict with Israel.

It's taken the United States ninety-four years, two world wars, three meatgrinder wars, two brushfire wars, and sixty years of steadily increasing murder rates to come three hundred thousand shy of that number from the Palestinians.

I don't think that I have to explain to you that the population of Gaza and the West Bank are, even combined, much, much smaller than the population of the United States.

So let's do that math. Both the United States and the Palestinian territories are at a historical high population, so let's see what a lowballed per-capita death rate is

First we average out the annual deaths - 94 years for the United States versus sixty years for the Palestinians...
U.S.: Annual war / murder death rate of 15,737.
Palestine: Annual death rate (just from the I/P conflict) of roughly 30,000 annually.

Now we divide these into the populations (CIA factbook's July 2008 estimates)...
United States: 303,824,640 / 15,409 = 19,717. One death for every 19,717 people
Palestine: 3,907,883 / 30,000 = 130. One death for every 130 people

Know what number we could expect if one out of every 130 Americans were to die in a year? 2,337,112. If you're not following, that's an annual death toll one million higher than a century of wars and half a century of murders combined.

Now if all this math and big numbers and decade-long time periods and averages and ratios has you shaking your head, allow me to present a simpler example.

Since fighting started in this most recent conflict, 854 Palestinians have been killed (As of yesterday). Fifty-six a day
Since we invaded Afghanistan, 981 Coalition soldiers have been killed. One every three days.

Now, fine. You don't want to call whatever it is that Israel is doing "ethnic cleansing" or anything. Okay. But if you're going to call their response "restrained" then you certainly must think that the Taliban are positively saintly.

[shira]

70. 1.8 million Palestinians dead? It's about 60,000 total arabs that include Palestinians

where on earth are you getting those outlandish numbers from?

counting the 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 2 Lebanon wars and 2 Intifadas against neighboring Arab countries, the total # of dead Arabs is around 60,000 total. In 60 years.

About 22,000 dead Israelis in the same amount of time.

[Chulanowa]

72. It's the most consistant number I was able to find

But let's take yours for a moment. 60,000 / 60 = average of 1,000 Palestinians a year.

Nearly that many have been killed in the last fifteen days alone.

This is restraint? Tell me honestly, is this number something we should be praising Israel for?

"Way to go Israel, you only killed nearly a thousand people in two weeks instead of the tens of thousands you could have if you really set your heart to it. Have a cigar!"

Give me a fucking break.

[Vegasaurus]

73. 11 million Muslims have killed each other

and no one bats an eye.

Hell yes, Israel shows restraint.

[Chulanowa]

77. Oh, so now we're talking about "Muslims"?

'Cause I thought we were talking about Israel's "restraint" in Palestine. I was quite unaware that a murder in Bangladesh would have such a pivotal point in an argument on this topic based solely on the religion of who the murderer and victim. I'm also quite puzzled by what, exactly, religion even has to do with the discussion, since Israel vs. Palestine has always been about territory, no matter how much America's Apocalyptic Death Cultists try to spin it.

[shira]

82. I/P isn't really about territory

if it were, this would have been wrapped up either with the partition plan of 1948 or 2000 CD/Taba.

The Muslim religious fanatics cannot abide by a Jewish state in dar Al Islam, as that parcel of land is Islamic waqf (consecrated). Once Islamic land, always Islamic land. Doesn't matter if it's called Palestine or not. This is why leadership in the OT during 1948-1967 had no problem whatsoever with Egyptian and Jordanian (Muslim) occupation.

[Chulanowa]

87. Your history is beyond bad

For one thing, I think you mean the 1947 partition plan... Easy enough mistake, since it was due to go into effect in 1948.

See, the problem there is... Well... Here's a map



Now without going into the whole "33% of the population getting most of the land" problem with the plan, there are two blatantly obvious problems with the plan. First, the overwhelming majority of good farmland goes to Israel. Second, the region's primary source of fresh water becomes exclusively controlled by the Jewish state. The Arabs got Gaza, some rocky highlands, and a spot of halfway decent land south of Lebanon.

The Arabs of Palestine refused this "deal" because it would have fucked them over big time. I know I wouldn't have accepted it. Unfortunately for the Arabs, the decision was made by a bunch of European states about where to put a bunch of European colonists, and in typical colonial zeal, cries of "fuck the sandniggers!" rang through the halls of the UN, and they go ahead with the plan... Cue the war.

It's also worth noting that in the war, despite the hoo-rah propaganda, Israel did not fight alone - they were supplied by the CIA, and had a good number of what, today, are called "independent contractors" - mercenaries - to help them fight ("suppress," to use the CIA term) the Arabs.

Also mentionable is that a rather large number of people on the Jewish side of things were unhappy... because they weren't getting enough land and the entirety of Jerusalem. My heart bleeds.

In short... the 1947 partition plan was a bunch of colonial states playing the colonialism game in favor of colonists.

And... the Taba accords? You mean the negotiations that were stalemated and then suspended to make time for Israeli elections... which Ariel Sharon refused to return to after his victory?

The fighting has always been over land. You don't engage in sixty years of mutual ass-kicking because you can't agree on who's prophet is valid. Yeah, there's bigotry on both sides, both religious and ethnic. But the fighting itself has ALWAYS been about land and resources. Ideology is just a cover to salve the conscience of the citizens involved. Saying that hte I-P conflict is over religion is like saying we really invaded Iraq to bring them democracy.

[shira]

96. it's not about land

as much as it's about never ceding an inch of consecrated Muslim land for non-Muslims to rule.

Compare Israel's share of the 1947 UN-partition plan to what Israel was due to get with the entire Palestinian mandate. The 1947 plan is meager in comparison but the Jews said 'Yes'.

And that didn't have to involve ANY arabs being disposessed. They could have chosen to live under Israeli sovereignty or move to sell their property, pack up, and go to Palestine.

[shira]

75. uhh, not quite

that 60,000 included all Arabs like Egyptians and Syrians from all Israel's wars the past 60 years. The number of Palestinians, AFAIK, is under 10,000 with most coming since Intifada 2.

nice try.

From 1.8 million to under 10,000.

sigh.

[Chulanowa]

76. Where are your sources?

Now, I can freely admit, all I could find through various iterations on "Palestinian deaths since 1948" was a 'generally agreed upon' figure between 1,800,000 and 2,000,000. Since it's the only figure I could actually find (most of the other "estimates" range from "lots" to "who cares") it's the one I used.

Do you have access to a strong source detailing exclusively Palestinian deaths since 1948? I'd be interested in its information, if so. Thanks ahead of time for the corrections if you do.

My question remains though - and I'll ask you, even though so far your beef seems to be with the numbers I've found - Should we be praising Israel for its "restraint" in this situation? 854 dead since December 27 is a hard, reputable number, and it's not one that I can look at and go "yup, that's restrained."

[shira]

81. seems I'm off too

http://www.ajn.com.au/news/news.asp?pgID=189

MYTH: “200,000 Palestinians have been killed since 1948.”

FACT: Independent analyses by SIPRI, B’Tselem, and other agencies indicate that no more than 20,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces since 1948. Meanwhile, Israel has lost 20,297 military personnel since the 1948 War of Independence.

===============================

To answer your question, 854 dead in 2 weeks considering the situation and the task at hand, is restrained. I'm not certain any other military with the same goals could have kept the body count under 5,000 by this point.

[Chulanowa]

85. Well, then

If Hamas kills 870 Israelis in two weeks, I fully expect to see you praise them, too.

Checking the numbers from those sources... B'Tselem only starts counting at the first Intifada. I couldn't find any death statistics from SIPRI - but they have a kind of complicated search function, so I might have just missed it. I did find small death counts attatched to escalation events, but clearly this is not a total (56 Palestinians and 17 Israelis dead since 1929, if you're using that as a basis. Clearly not)

There's a few problems in the little sidebar you're basing your stance on;
"FACT: The 21,000 square kilometres of land that the “artists” claims Israel “annexed” apparently refers to the actual size of Israel itself, without considering disputed territories. This is a clear indication that the “artist” considers Israel’s very existence illegitimate."

Truth is, they're both wrong. Israel's land area is 20,330 SQ KM. The West Bank is 5,860 SQ KM, while Gaza is 360 SQ KM, just for completeness' sake. So while the artist in question is clearly talking out hteir ass, the article's author seems to have given Israel an extra thousand square kilometers before taking into account hte settlements, Golan Heights, and that couple miles of Lebanon still occupied. Bersheba Farms, I think is hte name?

"FACT: Even if one includes the Golan and eastern Jerusalem, there are no more than 350 disputed settlements. The artists probably meant 200,000 settlers, not settlements."

Before the Gaza pullout, there were in fact 121 Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory. There are far more than 200,000 settlers - round-about 430,000 as of this year in the West Bank.

In this one, the "artist" is actually correct
"MYTH: “5,000,000 refugees have been created since 1948.”

FACT: The actual number of Arab refugees in 1949 was, according to Israeli sources, 538,000. (The UN puts the figure at 720,000.) Their descendents total more than four million."

Since the claim is saying "since 1949" and the rebuttal is counting only 1949.

I'm not even going to touch some of the other stuff that can't even be generously labeled as "mistake" from AJN. I will say that at least I had the sense to not go to al-Jazeera for my numbers.

[shira]

97. getting off topic

the point of the OP is that 60 years of conflict shows that Palestinians STILL expect to go on rooftops of targeted terror strongholds and KNOW that they are safe, due to Israel's ethics.

They know, even if you pretend not to.

And less than 20,000 dead Palestinians in 60 years - look at the forest through the trees - is nothing in comparison to any other conflict worldwide. NATO forces in the former Czech Republic, Iraq, etc... have killed FAR more in comparison - in a very short span of time - and they, unlike Israel, were never under threat from these countries. France in Algeria....200,000 dead. Iraq....a million dead. Former Czech Republic....far more dead than Palestinians in 60 years.

Let's not pretend Israel has less regard for Palestinians than any other Western power in war against their adversaries.

Simply put, no other country proves to be as restrained as Israel.....given that Israel and its civilians have been constantly under direct threat (as opposed to NATO forces including the USA, France, Britain, etc.).

Blind hatred is the only reason to ignore that fact, which is PLAINLY evident in the OP's video.

[bemildred]

12. It seems to me that Hamas relies on the fact that Israel will destroy those places.

They are not trying to protect the stuff, they are trying to get the propaganda. And it's working.

[The Magistrate]

21. This Seems To Be An Earlier Incident, Sir

The fellow who was killed with his family early in the operation (his name escapes me, and my inclination is to leave it remain forgotten...) was a proponent of this technique, and on several occasions it did ward off bombings.

[bemildred]

23. Eh, I don't know.

Perhaps I spoke too soon. I can't say I find the video convincing of much of anything as it stands, yet I would not put much past either Hamas or the IDF.

It does seem to me that the proper thing to do is not to fire into a house full of people, regardless, and not to fire ones weapons in an urban environment without being damn clear as to what one is aimed at. If it's wrong for the rocketeers, it's wrong for IDF tank gunners, and that has nothing to do with what those people decided to do and why.

There are many questions here without answers, and lots of purple rhetoric, and I don't like it.

[The Magistrate]

26. We Are In Agreement On the Proper Course, My Friend

And on the prevalence of em-purpled prose....

[shira]

58. come on, bemildred

let's admit the IDF cannot wage a perfect war without civlian casualties. No country can.

But let's also admit that a main tactic of Hamas is to use as a weapon Israel's rules of engagement and moral conduct against the Israeli military. THAT is what this video, and what the article, is about. It's a tactic that only works on countries and militaries who have scruples and wish to avoid civilian casualties.

Of course, accidents happen. Or that bad decisions are made to blow up buildings where known civilians are. These are tragic mistakes.

What's sad and so disconcerting here is that so many "progressives" refuse to see it in these terms. It's as if they MUST see Israel as more sinister than most countries - as bad or worse than Hamas, etc.

It's one thing to be anti-war. It's another to accuse Israel of waging their wars at or around the same level as Hamas wages it. It's a very ugly accusation - and as this video so clearly shows - the truth is that Israel wages war with scruples on par (and arguably better) than any other nation that has ever been in a war.

[bemildred]

60. You can "admit" whatever you like.

But you have no right to tell me what I have to "admit". I call them like I see them, and that is all you have a right to demand from me. "We're better than Hamas" is not an argument that will carry much weight with me. It seems to me that it is entirely fair to judge the IDF's efforts by the results; good intentions or the nastiness of ones enemies will not wash clean the horror of what is being done. That is the same standard I apply to Hamas or anyone else.

[shira]

62. so you disagree, why?

The video appears to show very strong proof that Hamas and Palestinian civilians count on and rely upon the morality, ethics, and scruples of the Israeli military.

That it was so easy to assemble mothers holding babies on rooftops shows that this tactic worked before, still works, and will keep working, aside from inevitable mistakes made in any war or conflict.

If you disagree, what amount of evidence will it take to convince you of what Hamas and Palestinians already know for themselves - and which you continue to deny?

[bemildred]

63. The video is proof of nothing.

The fact that the IDF is reluctant to bomb rooftops full of people is proof that they are not all vicious nitwits, but that's about as far as you can go with it.

Have a nice day, you're not going to convince me of anything, and I doubt I will be able to change your views either.

[shira]

64. of course, ignore the man behind the curtain

You wrote:

"The fact that the IDF is reluctant to bomb rooftops full of people is proof that they are not all vicious nitwits, but that's about as far as you can go with it."


Then you must think Palestinian mothers who go up on rooftops voluntarily with their infants are retards or else Palestinian volunteer shields are suicidal. Is there another option?

[bemildred]

66. Again you want to tell me what I must think. nt

[fed_up_mother]

16. As much as I abhor Israeli actions

I'm afraid I do believe this:

"The goals driving the Israeli action (all Israeli military actions, really) are the safety of its citizens and the preservation of the existence of a sovereign nation. Hamas, on the other hand, has its goal the destruction of Israel, not the safety of its citizens. To paraphrase something New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said during his recent trip to Israel, Hamas should be more concerned with building a Palestinian nation than destroying a neighboring one."

[Vegasaurus]

18. But Hamas doesn't care about building a Palestinian nation

Their goal is to destroy Israel.

And they will destroy it eventually, because there is no dealing with nihilists with no morality.

[DogPoundPup]

31. Sorry vegas ...

Israel is destroying itself.

This information (I take ex-Pres Jimmy Carter to be an honest reporter of facts) makes it perfectly clear that it was the deliberate policy of the Israeli government to refuse the passage of normal supply lines that led to the Israelis' deliberate provoking the Palestinian's rocket attacks.

http://www.truthout.org/010809R

[fed_up_mother]

40. Weapons are hidden in "normal supply lines"

[ProgressiveProfessor]

95. Thats a bit of a reach

Weapons have to be smuggled in to Gaza or floated in. The former uses the tunnels at Rafah, the latter mostly fishermen.

Since all regular supplies come through Israel, they are being very thoroughly checked.

[Shaktimaan]

51. I wouldn't be so quick to use Carter as a reliable source.

He's constantly making factually incorrect and intellectually dishonest statements concerning this conflict.

By the way, do you ever use normal, credible news sources to get your information from? Every time I see you link to somewhere it is some nutty website. I realize that the Carter article is from the Wash Post, but if you only look at these weird websites you are never going to get any kind of balanced perspective on this thing. I mean, do you ever read stuff from the other side's POV or any unbiased journalist's editorials?

[Vegasaurus]

53. Israel should not have to be taking care of the Palestinians after 60 years

Let them build their own state, not one predicated on the destruction of another.

Then they can import and export their own goods, and build a good life for themselves.

Terrorism and violence is not the way to live.

[shira]

59. how on earth...

does Carter presume to know Israel's intentions WRT supplies and aid? Is he a mindreader? Carter called Hamas' tunnel of Nov. 4 "defensive", which is laughable. That's not honest reporting of the facts.

What Carter essentially accuses Israel of is provoking Hamas by responding to the tunnel of Nov.4. As though Israel couldn't wait for a better excuse, knowing Hamas would react violently to that - and then Israel could cut supplies and aid as a result of the increase in rockets since Nov 4.

This is an rank-amateur conspiracy theory, not honest reporting of facts by Carter.

[LeftishBrit]

37. I don't care for this author's general viewpoint; but agree that Hamas use immoral tactics

Just a bunch of far-RW religious-right warmongers.

I don't support what Israel is doing; but let's not romanticize Hamas.

[HeraldSquare212]

42. He lost me when he argued that Israel has a moral center.

[Shaktimaan]

50. Really? You serious?

Why would anyone use this technique unless it worked? Who would put civilians on the roof of a building about to be bombed unless they had strong faith in the pilot's morality? No Israeli would try the equivalent with Hamas, I can tell you that!

Let me ask you something. Can you name some nations who you believe have militaries which conduct themselves more ethically than Israel's?

[shira]

61. Shakti, the Palestinians volunteered to go up to the rooftops

they weren't "put" up there by Hamas. The loudspeakers went on, they were called, and immediately within 5 minutes mothers holding babies were up on the rooftop. There are no signs they were ever forced up there by Hamas.

This shows that both Hamas AND Palestinian civilians count on and rely on Israel to act restrained and ethical.

People here who don't believe Israel has a moral center must think Palestinians who volunteer as human shields are either retards who should know by now how Israel operates, or they're suicidal.

[HeraldSquare212]

67. I have eyes, is really all I can say to that.

[tan guera]

90. Israel's moral center

in inside AIPAC

[azurnoir]

45. A bit more that relates to that video

A new Israeli weapon, meanwhile, is tailored to the Hamas tactic of asking civilians to stand on the roofs of buildings so Israeli pilots will not bomb. The Israelis are countering with a missile designed, paradoxically, not to explode. They aim the missiles at empty areas of the roofs to frighten residents into leaving the buildings, a tactic called “a knock on the roof.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?_r=2&hp

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bunnies]

55. Gaza residents say: IDF troops posing as Hamas men

Coincidence? :shrug:

[DogPoundPup]

78. yes...you are exactly correct

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x243979

[shira]

74. the sound of silence - from the hate-Israel crowd

Another myth shattered.

It's gotta be pretty bad for the hate-Israel crowd when Hamas and Palestinian civilians trash the lying meme about Israel not acting morally WRT civilians. The video from the OP couldn't be more clear. Palestinians actually expect Israel to act morally WRT civilians, especially when it's obvious (like rooftops). This is why Palestinians volunteer and show up within minutes to thwart IAF plans. You don't do that with an "evil" Israel that doesn't give a flying flip.

This article from the OP should be bookmarked for future reference. To act as a little annoying reminder to the denying haters.

The kicker is that this video will probably result in the haters becoming even more extreme, deranged and hysterical. They don't like it when their excuses for hate are exposed as myths or nonsense.

[DogPoundPup]

79. ummm...looky

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x243979

[shira]

83. and?

read #3 and #22.

The tactic is probably saving scores of Palestinian civilian lives.

And like I wrote right above, you're still in denial about that video which proves your diabolical "thesis" demonstrably false. You're desperately looking for anything you can to ignore/minimize the evidence proving Israeli scruples WRT civilians. This is typical, as haters just look the other way and try finding other excuses for their hatred.

[azurnoir]

80. The Hate Israel crowd?

Why is that you must rely on that musty chestnut? And please do be specific as to exactly who you are talking about here.Because you have so so little else could it be that the hate Israel crowd as you need to call us what is it projection maybe? but never the less there is an obvious answer we know it do you; hint look back at Lebanon there were IAF refuseniks then why is that? Lets play this do you think that the abuses at Abu Garib would have happened if National Guard who's average age about 30 and older had been in charge rather than Marine corp or Army grunts who were in their late teens and early 20's not to mention less educated? And answer this who is Israel popping in the cockpit of an F16 a 19 year old who had a C average or someone a little older with a better record a lot more training? Even then if you read my earlier post then you about the "knock on the roof" the empty casing dropped from several hundred feet seems that could cause injury too, in short there is bad pr and BAD PR.

[shira]

84. yes, the HI crowd

The video from the OP shows without any question that Palestinians have come to know and expect Israeli military to act morally and ethically WRT civilians. Ergo, the tactic of volunteers to rooftops partying in the face of F16's knowing they're safe. Psst, it's there plainly in the video.

It's hard for you to admit what Palestinians obviously already know 60 years into this conflict, isn't it?

You'd have FAR more credibility as a concerned and honest critic if you could just admit basic fact. Sadly, you must hold desperately to your memes about "evil Israel", how they are so unconcerned about Palestinian civilians. The difference between an honest critic and a closed-minded hater whose only goal is to demonize, IMO. Here, let's test you, from the article in the OP:

"Hamas's recognition that Israel, as a nation, cares about the lives of innocent civilians and has an innate moral code, while Hamas does not, is the center of Hamas's war strategy."

True or False?

"1) The Israelis think it's wrong to bomb traditional civilian areas. If the Israelis were just bloodthirsty war-mongers who didn't care who was harmed in their quests of aggression, it wouldn't matter to them who or what they were bombing. If this was the Israeli mindset, what good would it do to go to the roof of a building to try and prevent an attack? But because Hamas knows that Israel does care about civilian lives, the terrorist group uses the Israeli sense of right and wrong as a weapon, hiding its violent activities behind its civilians.

2) Hamas doesn't have any moral code or respect for civilian lives. After all, to use civilians as human shields, and to conduct military operations from traditionally civilian locations, you have to not care if your citizens are injured or killed. Because if you did care, you would never endanger them by using them as shields or by conducting military operations in their pressence."

True or False?

[azurnoir]

88. Andyou would be far more credability if you were not

trying to reframe the debate in your favor as they are pointed statements made in a desperate attempt to save face on a thread that the entire premise of has been whumped out of the ball park; but as to the first it is true that the Israeli government makes those claims however recent events on the ground beg to differ, as to Hamas yes there are some youtube video's that would seem to substantiate that albeit not the one 17 second one posted here it would also seem that some of Israel's forces are using this as an excuse to attack civilian sites as to Hamas conducting military operations among civilians in an area that is 224 sq miles and populated with a density 10,655 per square mile not fighting amongst civilians is pretty darn hard and also makes the claim of not targeting civilians empty at best. But do keep trying the attempt to explain away civilian death is quite helpful and oh I hear there some help needed on that bothersome williepete thingy too perhaps you should address or explain that I would love to hear your compassionate take on that issue

Oh and BTW you hot footed around my comments about the possible differences between the IAF abd IDF silence is golden

Now I am ready to hear how I am supporting Hamas who is not innocent in this conflict by any means and has been recorded as using human shields at times but that does not cover the civilian death toll by any means which is what is being attempted here

[shira]

92. the video evidence from the OP's article refutes you

It shows very clearly that Hamas and Palestinian civilians count on the ethics of Israel's army NOT to attack civilians who can plainly be seen protecting terror strongholds. They know despite Israel's goals to disarm and disable Hamas that Israel won't intentionally kill scores of civilians who can plainly be seen.

You're so full of hate, you can't even admit it.

What's worse is that you not only ignore the IDF's ethics, but you give Hamas every benefit of the doubt that they are not savagely using their own civilians as expendable, subhuman pawns.

Pathetic.

[azurnoir]

93. I am so full of hate?

am I the one posting threads that try to excuse civilian causalities or at least shift the blame? the video shows nothing that is claimed and even you admitted that these people were not forced remember? I asked a logical question about that differences between IDF and IAF which you still have not answered except to make accusations that you refuse to backup
I have said that neither side is clean in this but the only time I have seen you do that is when you were questioned by a moderator

[shira]

94. what is it that you don't get?

Of course Palestinians were not FORCED to the rooftop in the video......this is PROOF that after 60 years of dealing with Israel, they feel safe acting as shields who KNOW Israel won't attack them due to the ethics of the IAF/IDF.

Let that sink in.

They've had 60 years to live and deal with an IDF/IAF that you believe doesn't have an ethical/moral code.

And yet, there they are on the rooftop. And there is Hamas boasting victory in that situation, knowing Israel won't attack.

And you're in full denial mode.

You don't do the rooftop shield thing against a military with no scruples. That would be certain death or at best, Russian roulette.

Can you at least admit that if this rooftop/shield tactic were tried against Hamas, it would be the dumbest thing ever to expect Hamas gunmen not to shoot scores of civilians?

As for your silly argument against IAF "knocking" on the rootop, how on earth do you see THAT or ANYTHING Israel does as intentionally or deliberately trying to harm civilians?

Why don't you EVER give Israel the benefit of the doubt you ALWAYS give Hamas and just admit that although Israel tries, they need to make better decisions someties, or that going to war while trying to keep civilians safe is a pipedream no matter how hard Israel tries to do things ethically? Rather than think I'm "hateful" for trying to excuse "Israeli terror", why not give me, or others like myself, the benefit of the doubt when we believe overall that Israel tries their best but that due to human error (sometimes intentional with a few individuals, mostly unintentional) mistakes happen?

How about some credit to Israel for all the warnings by phone or leaflet? If they didn't do that, you'd scream that they should - wouldn't you?

Lastly, if the vast majority of leftists in Israel (they know their IDF) are believers that Israel puts a high priority on Palestinian civilian welfare, do you believe these Israeli leftists are dumb, brainwashed dupes or just lying about it?

[azurnoir]

98. Shira I gave a you reasons for the differences between

IAF and IDF a couple of posts back and yes it is nice to hear that Israelis beleive their chidren, sisters brothers, or they themselves did no wrong when in the military, however what has occured to me is that for some here the death and carnage that are going hand in hand with this conflict are really nothing more than a chance for a "hurray for our side" to score political points and to be entirely honest I for one am ashamed of having participated in that type of debate were these things are concerned there is no excuse, there is no excuse to use human shields, something which has been claimed by both sides here, there is no excuse to use WP as a "smokescreen" in heavily populated areas knowing the repercussions whether intended or nor not on civilians, the list goes on. So I refuse to do this any more it makes the loss of life appear cheap so flame on about how I can not say anything else or will not admit this or that its your prerogative, The matters here are far too serious and what is happening far too horrendous for this crap; so I concede you win your right points scored.
But i am done with treating this like a debate club party or a Sunday afternoon football game.

[azurnoir]

89. I noticed you hot footed around my question

about exactly who the hate Israel crowd is here who exactly or what are you talking about is it an organized group something the like a mirror image Megaphone?

[THUNDER HANDS]

86. lack of intellectual center is more like it

none of us (ie, you and I reading this) could ever be in Hamas because we have brains. and if we lived next door to Israel, who had tanks and planes and bombs, we wouldn't throw rocks at them, we'd tried to live with them and work out a peaceful land-sharing agreement, and we wouldn't be pushy about it because we'd have the intelligence to figure out that you don't go to the bargaining table with nothing to bargain with.

Hamas is just flat-out stupid to think they can beat Israel.

Israel leaders, OTOH, are dumb in their own right to think they can intimidate a group that doesn't care if it lives or dies.

[Vegasaurus]

91. Ding, ding ding

This is the winning post.

Hamas is FLAT OUT STUPID, to think they can beat Israel.

And yes, Israeli leaders are also dumb if they can think they can beat down people who do not value human life.