Did LBJ Cover For Israel?

[Resistance]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/23/national/main579649.shtml

(AP) A former Navy attorney who helped lead the military investigation of the 1967 Israeli attack on the USS Liberty that killed 34 American servicemen says former President Lyndon Johnson and his defense secretary, Robert McNamara, ordered that the inquiry conclude the incident was an accident.

In a signed affidavit released at a Capitol Hill news conference, retired Capt. Ward Boston said Johnson and McNamara told those heading the Navy's inquiry to "conclude that the attack was a case of 'mistaken identity' despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary."

Boston was senior legal counsel to the Navy's original 1967 review of the attack. He said in the sworn statement that he stayed silent for years because he's a military man, and "when orders come ... I follow them."

David Lewis of Lemington, Vt., was on the Liberty when it was attacked. In an interview, he said Israel had to know it was targeting an American ship. He said a U.S. flag was flying that day and Israel shot it full of holes. The sailors on the ship, he said, quickly hoisted another American flag, a much bigger one, to show Israel it was a U.S. vessel.

"No trained individual could be that inept," said Lewis of the Israeli forces.

(snipped sections)

[bemildred]

1. All phasers on stun, Scotty.

Warp factor seven.
You may fire when ready,

[Resistance]

5. heh heh

defense shieldings are operative?

[papau]

2. Resistance - you really like a racist hater of blacks and jews if Israel

is dumped on by his words?

Mr. Boston may well believe his interpretation and come to it without bias - but Adm Moorer is a loud "racist".

Does a 1967 event need a dozen separate threads?

[Resistance]

6. That was quick!

The first comment on the article is a smear against the person making the allegation.

Good job. Personally, if I was in the business of vilifying those who say things I don't want to hear, I would probably drop the pretense of addressing the actual issue too.

Also, you shouldn't throw in a second excuse for avoiding the issue (by complaining about separate threads) - because doing so really does expose your arguments as fraudulent. What you should do is prepare one excuse and stick with it.

My 2 cents.

[aquart]

3. And the benefit to Israel would be..............?

A nation surrounded by enemies, dependent of US protection, would naturally wish to attack a US entity for the reason..............?

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

4. Step Right Up To The Tent, Folks!

Liberty Follies Number Eighty-Three is about to commence!

Pony up your nickel, Sir, and see decades old memory racked for whatever might serve sensational interests today!

Witness a cottage industry coming to rival Roswell New Mexico for fresh revelation by interested and self-seeking parties!

See feats of parsing and mind-reading un-paralleled in the universe, as people on ships know what people flying airplanes are thinking, and men who had themselves no idea what their own orders were proclaim their certainty no military organization on earth could make a blunder like that!

Come one, come all!

"It's the Greatest Show on earth!"

[GabysPoppy]

7. Does popcorn and cotton candy come with the price of the ticket

I am waiting to see how many clowns come out of the little car.

[The Magistrate]

9. Of Course, Sir!

It's all right in the tent! Whatever your heart desires!

"Enquiring minds want to know!"

[Resistance]

11. don't worry

Michael Oren, A. Jay Cristol, Israeli spokespersons, and other ultra-nationalists are sure to be part of the show. How many of them is always hard to determine before-hand.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GabysPoppy]

18. Their is a rumor

that a sense of humor might help oneself navigate these threads at times.
McDonalds is offering one with a happy meal. Feel free to put it on my tab if you would like to acquire one.

[Malikshah]

8. Interesting take.

Will we be inviting the families of those killed and wounded on the Liberty--and will they get 1/2 off for tickets?

In other words--this may be bringing up "old issues" to some--but the issue is, in fact, not "old." More information is being released from the LBJ Administration--specifically about events surrounding the 1967 War period.

As this new information comes out--"old" ideas will have to make way for new evidence. There is no telling where this may lead -- I would opt for a respectful wait and see attitude and not treat it as a circus.

[mmm]

12. The truth will not be pretty

Zion claims that the Liberty was a spy class Egyptian
cattle cruiser. Muhahahbahaha.
Let the truth fall where it may.
Such bullshit is the bringer of annihilation.

[mmm]

13. Not old at all, my friend

we have not forgotten

[The Magistrate]

15. You May Forgive My Weariness With The Topic, Mr. Shah

We gnaw over those old bones regular as menses down here.

The occassion now is some fellow deciding to say after three dozen years he was told personally to do something by persons, one of whom is dead, the other of whom will surely deny his tale. It settles nothing, and merely adds more curliques to an already baroque agglomeration of speculation and self-induced conviction, that indeed rivals the Roswell and M.I.A. mythologies already.

There is no compelling reason whatever to think the thing anything but a mistake: blunder is the common currency of war. Even if it was purposeful, and known to be so, as this fellow alleges, interests of state would seem to have long since dictated it was of little importance compared to more vital interests, and that, too, is of little importance: the soldier is the slave of the state, which spends his life as suits its objectives, which are the sole reason for his existance as its chattel.

[Resistance]

16. anyone wanna go ride the Ferris Wheel?

[mmm]

17. Perhaps

give me the angle

[Resistance]

20. I was just being silly

and going along with the fun of pretending that the concern over Israel's attack on the Liberty is some grand circus or carnival.

[Fight_n_back]

23. Here is my wuestion to you

"So what?"

Even if you had a shred of evidence to prove what you cannot, so what?

Israel shot at a nuetral spy vessel during a war, so what?

[Resistance]

27. I'm sure the families of the victims ask the same question.

"So what?" they must say

[Fight_n_back]

29. As expected

a well reasonend response full of evidence backing your slander.

You have not even ATTEMPTED to fabricate a motive.

[Resistance]

31. Oh I'm sorry

you already gave my motive earlier - you said the attack was intentional because I want to believe it was.

Or did you really want to hear what I had to say on the matter?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

34. That didn't answer the question

and the US was not an ally but a nuetral party.

What would you expect to be done that hasn't been done?

Reparations? Done

Apology? Done

What motive do you ascribe to Israel? What motive to LBJ?

Indeed, there isn't one. As there is no evidence of any intention. ALL evidence shows it to be a mistake...

but even if you had some evidence the question would be the same...

so what? Israel attacked a neutral spy ship, so what?

What did you demand from Iraq regarding the USS Stark? What did you demand from the Soviet Union regarding KAL? What did you demand from the US regarding the Iranian airliner?

[Equinox]

38. Moi?

What did you demand from Iraq regarding the USS Stark? What did you demand from the Soviet Union regarding KAL? What did you demand from the US regarding the Iranian airliner?

Not a damn thing. I'm, after all, a leftist retard.

....so what?


LOL.......

[Equinox]

58. Why was my post deleted?

Thanks in advance for an answer.

[Lithos]

96. The Ministry lyric

Associating that song's lyrics with someone's beliefs is a Public Attack and against DU guidelines for civility.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground

[Equinox]

98. What?

How did I associate anyone's belief with the lyrics of So What?

?????

To my knowledge, Yang said "So What?"

Then that made me think of the song So What? by Ministry. I'm not sure of your post.

[Fight_n_back]

21. You have no reason

to believe in a puprposefull attack on the Liberty other than the fact that you want to believe it. You can present no actual evidence that anything occurred other than what was claimed to have occurred.

If you have the evidence then please produce it because the best books on the subject say it was a mistake, which is why Israel paid the victims and victims families.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

40. Agree to an extent, but...

There is always a but :)

I was referring not so much to the statement of one individual but rather the opening up of more files.

This in addition to Bamford's book on the NSA...

In the end, we'll have to disagree. This was not a mistake.
War brings with it poor judgement at times. This could be forgiven by some.
The poor judgement over 35+ years is not acceptable.

As for chewing over things over the years--the reason many still do is that they find the "official" line hard to swallow--hence they still chew, and will continue to do so until those responsible own up--and those who were treated so abominably (both in the attack and by the US government afterwards) are treated with justice and honor.

[Fight_n_back]

19. evidence

http://www.nsa.gov/docs/efoia/released/liberty.html

Look for yourself.

Of course, if you disagree with it you will ignore it, as is to be expected down here.

It would be amazing if one of you actually did look into the incident on your own, to see what happened rather than to see what you could find.

[Resistance]

22. response

written by Jim Ennes, an officer aboard the Liberty at time of the attack:

http://www.ussliberty.org/washrp03.txt

NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY DOCUMENTS ON
ATTACK ON USS LIBERTY PROVE WHAT?
By James M. Ennes

------------------------------------------------------------

LIBERTY survivors were pleased when we learned in June that
apologists for our attackers had asked the federal courts to
order the release of key intercept transcripts compiled dur-
ing the attack. These, we knew, would prove our case and
disprove that of the apologists.

Instead of releasing transcripts of the attack itself,
however, the National Security Agency (NSA) released signals
intelligence transcripts collected AFTER the attack --
radio messages from helicopter pilots who came out afterward
to clean up.

What a disappointment. We had hoped for some of the comm-
unications we know took place between the Israeli jet pilots
and their headquarters, but those were not released.

Nevertheless, to our astonishment, the pro-Israel PR team
put their own false spin on what was released. The July 9
HA'ARETZ released the story with a new twist: "U.S. Agency
Confirms USS LIBERTY Was An Accident." Despite
the fact that nothing in the documents released suggests that
it was an accident, this false account was picked up by media
from THE BOSTON GLOBE to CNN, and repeated as established
fact -- often with quotes from Chief Apologist A. Jay Cristol,
proclaiming victory.

But the released materials reveal no such thing. The NSA
intercepts show only that the helicopter pilots were confused
about the ship's identity until they arrived about 75 minutes
after the first shots were fired. Intercept of the attack
itself -- not released, but which has been seen by senior NSA
sources and others -- show that in fact our attackers did know
they were attacking an American ship. Israel has managed once
again to get wide attention for a headline that gives a totally
false account of reality.

[Fight_n_back]

24. thats a non response

Israel made the actual transcripts available years ago and they are avalable to look at for anyone who actually cares about the truth.

A website run by a captain who sent his ship to the wrong place and has been covering his ass ever since is of little use to those actually seeking evidence of waht happened.

but again I ask, "so what?"

[Resistance]

26. do you need a tissue?

[Fight_n_back]

28. a link

http://pnews.org/art/1ussliberty.shtml

a progressive source...

sums up the "mistakes" made by the conspiracists...

{From an article in The Jerusalem Report (November 1991), by Hirsh Goodman...Goodman goes on to write: "Mistakes are not uncommon in war. The day before the Liberty was attacked, Israeli warplanes bombed and strafed an Israeli armored column near Jenin in the West Bank. During the Lebanese war, in June 1982, over 20 Israeli servicemen were killed when a Phantom jet pilot mistakenly identified Israeli tanks as Syrian. In May 1987, in the Gulf, the USS Stark was accidentally hit by Iraqi warplanes, killing 37 servicemen. An Iranian civilian airliner was shot down by an over-anxious American battleship crew in May 1988, killing all 290 passengers on board. So it was with the Liberty, an American spy ship, that should not have been where it was, when it was."}

Did Israel purposely attack its own troops to provoke sympathy?

Did Iraq attack the Stark to provoke a war?

Did the US attack an Iranian airliner to defend Salman Rushdie?

Enquiring minds want to know!

[Resistance]

30. did you say progressive source?

Ok, I am there now.

Some articles found on their Middle East page:

"Antisemitism and the Left"
"Jordan is Palestine"
"Professor Edward Said was a Fake"
"International Solidarity Movement -ISM- supporting terrorists"

Oh and look at this, an article on Karl Marx, who they call "The Unjewish Jew" -- here's an interesting excerpt from the article:

"There are Jews who are the darlings of the left because they can always be depended on to provide the kind of propaganda which gets recycled over the interNUT as quickly as it is written. It should be also noted that while they are well known on the left there are not that many of them. The handful of anti-Zionist B/S propagandists are: Lenni Brenner, Simha Flapan, Peretz Kidron, Tom Segev, Avi Shlaim, Maxime Rodinson, Andrew and Leslie Cockburn, Norman Finkelstein, Leon Hader, Edward Herman, and a couple of others."

Progressive source eh?

Uh-huh. Sure.

[Darranar]

33. No, it's progressive...

simply radically pro-Israel.

[Resistance]

39. sorry

calling the non-violent peace group ISM "terrorist supporters" is really enough to lose the progressive tag, in my view.

Radically stupid is more like it.

Here is another article: "Settlements Not an Impediment to Peace"

Gee, how progressive.

[Darranar]

42. I saw those...

but see the poll?

They're anti-Bush, anti-war, but radically pro-israel. It's a phenomenum that isn't so rare.

[Resistance]

57. It's called

Ultra-nationalism

[Equinox]

35. I wonder why Noam Chomsky or Uri Avnery wasn't on that...

unprogressive list?

:eyes:

[Fight_n_back]

36. A progressive source

(Lat:"Dare to Know")
Life is great! Don't miss any of it. Create your own time. Enjoy every moment. Life is a precious gift. Feel deeply. Enjoy simply. Celebrate life. Think freely. Take risks. Fight back. Oppose racism and injustice. Also welcome love. Be who you really are because life is too short to do otherwise. Be stronger than your condition. Be kind. Be supportive. Walk in somebody elses shoes. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you. Above all, seek justice and do no harm.

Dirshu Mishpat
(Heb:"Seek Justice")
Experience Compassion! And, be all you can. And, don't let the bastards grind you down. There are a lot of BUBBAS in the world. Just ignore them. They're not worth your time. Everything is possible. Just do it! And, carry a big stick, just in case somebody tries to mess with you. Honor your parents, they probably did the best they could.
Commander Hank Roth
(Jewish War Veterans)
a/k/a ..TheGolem

[Darranar]

37. What?

[Resistance]

43. LOL

[Fight_n_back]

44. Did you

go to the link? Its the mission statement....

[Equinox]

45. Um..you didn't provide one, Yang. Are you ok?

Edit: in post #44

Unless you were talking about the link in #28

[Fight_n_back]

47. Uh...

yeah I did...learn to read please

[Equinox]

48. Uh...Learn to read my edit...

please.

[Fight_n_back]

46. To wuote someone you admire

"That was quick!


The first comment on the article is a smear against the person making the allegation.

Good job. Personally, if I was in the business of vilifying those who say things I don't want to hear, I would probably drop the pretense of addressing the actual issue too."

[Resistance]

63. you're the one that called it a progressive source

I challenged that description due to all the stupid, anti-Left, ultra-nationalist things found on the site.

[Fight_n_back]

68. And you were challenged

because you sited a source of a known bigot...

so what?

[Resistance]

74. First of all

I wasn't challenged - a person in the news story was.

Second - you now need to provide evidence of the man's bigotry. I showed that your site is hardly progressive, and is instead full of lunacy and ridiculous anti-progressive stories, so it's your turn - what proof do you have that the admiral is a bigot?

[Equinox]

78. Ah...but the question is, is he an admirable bigot?

:evilgrin:

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Resistance]

81. again

what proof do you have that the admiral is a bigot

[Equinox]

82. Or an admirable one at that!

I couldn't resist! LOL.....

:evilgrin:

[Resistance]

84. Equinox

Do you know any admirable bigots?

Do you know any admiral bigots?

Do you know any admirable admiral bigots?

LOL

[Equinox]

85. LOL....too funny!!!!

[Fight_n_back]

83. again

I don't care if the admiral is a bigot...I care that your are a hypocrite in such matters.

[Resistance]

86. oh, now you backtrack

first you post that the source is that "of a known bigot" and now that you can't back it up with evidence, you say you "don't care" if he is a bigot.

And I am the hypocrite! LMAO

[Fight_n_back]

90. What?

Show me where I said the admiral was a bigot...

you are dissmebling because you ahve been shown to be a fool.

[Resistance]

92. yeah

I'm dissmebling like a mutha

[Equinox]

87. Is he an admiral hypocrite? Or an admirable hypocrite?

Please, I'm dying to know!

[Resistance]

88. I am

the first admiral of the leftist retard nation. We're all bigots and we're all admirable.

[Equinox]

91. I've admired such admiration when embarking on contemplation,

Tell me that this leftist nation
Will be so stuffed with constipation
And once they've dealt all infiltration
They'll carry on their castigation

:shrug:

[Resistance]

95. Western Democratization

Arab Destabilization
Oil Purification
Sanitized Oration
Marijuana Criminalization
News Falsification
Weapon Transportation

Late night fabrication

So what? So what?

[Darranar]

41. Well...

I don't know if it was intentional or not; The Magistrate has a point about military blunders, but it would have taken quite a blunder for this to have occured the way it did.

Of course, Einstein was a very wise man.

[Resistance]

49. a 75 minute blunder?

Wow, that is a super, super-long blunder. It's the extra special extended remix of a blunder.

One minute of attacking, ok might be a blunder there. Five minutes of attack is very hard to reconcile as a "blunder".

This was 75 minutes.

In two separate waves of attacks.

[Fight_n_back]

52. And the motive was?

and your evidence that Israel knew it was an American ship is?

and the sources you site are?

[Equinox]

54. There's been testimony that the American Flag was clearly visible...

...but don't let that stop you!

Testimony that there were helicopters circled the vessel then started firing.

But again, those are just trivial matters.

:eyes:

[Fight_n_back]

61. That isn't a motive

the guys in the ship knew their was a flag. They can't testify as to what the pilots saw.

The helicopters arrived for rescue AFTER the torpedoing so once again...

The transcripts that happened DURING the flyovers say that at first it was a Russian ship which led to an emergency session by the cabinet then they were all relieved that it was an Egyptian cargo vessel.

Once again, its all available for public record. there is really NO evidence that Israel knew it was an American ship and nor reason for LBJ to cover it up.

Just as there was no reason for the US to cover up shooting down an Iranian Airliner.

You still haven't even attempted to fabricate a motive.

[Equinox]

64. Wasn't attempting to fabricate a motive, Yang.

You inquired:

and your evidence that Israel knew it was an American ship is?


Hence, my reply.

Please, do keep up.

[Fight_n_back]

67. Please do keep up

evidence that AMericans on an American ship knew the ship to be American is hardly evidence that someone else did.

What did you think of the Israeli transcripts when you read them?

[Equinox]

72. Ok..Yang....follow along...

There's testimony that the Flag was visible. Choppers and gun boats are directing fire towards the vessel. Again, the flag is visible according to American testimony. Now....what are you saying?

[Fight_n_back]

89. Did I stutter?

I cannot testify to what you saw. The day before Israel attacked its own troops and there were STARS on the tanks. Was that on purpose?

The KAL looked nothing like a warplane but that was not on purpose even though Reagan wanted us to believe so.

The transcripts say that the planes looked for a flag and could not find them and that the gunships asked for ID and were not given any from the Liberty.

The Liberty was not suppossed to be there. An egypian vessel was headed that way but turned after Israel lost sight of it. It is almost EXACTLY what happened with the KAL.

You are holding on to this for reasons that are beyond reason. You don't care this much about the USS Cole, you probably would defend Al Queda in that incident...

[Equinox]

93. Did you? I don't see how when typing...

but anyway...of course the transcripts are going to say one thing and testimony from the sailors will say something else.

Were you there? I don't know why you wish to defend....Al Queda...and all that other jazz your post composed of....


Good grief, Yang....lol

[Equinox]

94. Deleted Message....but read anyway.

Just wanted to make my own deleted message since apparantly this thread is being carved up like a butterball and it ain't even Thanksgiving yet!

From,

Name Removed

:evilfrown:

[Darranar]

65. There was indeed a reason for LBJ to cover it up...

(though otherwise I agree with your post):

A counter was needed to the Soviet influence in the Middle East. Israel was the perfect tool for this.

When foreign policy and national interests dictate it, forgiveness happens.

[Fight_n_back]

71. If your premise is true

there is still no reason for a cover up. The US could have taken full responsibility, the US was nuetral during that war...not an ally.

[Resistance]

70. motive

Israel didn't want the U.S. (and the rest of the world) to know it was engaged in theft of the Golan Heights, and all the massacres of people that were part of this plan.

Everyone knows the '67 Blitzkrieg - err, I mean war - was planned for years. Israel knew what it wanted, and knew it had to seize the moment.

[Fight_n_back]

73. Thats silly

to know Israel seized the Golan Heights all you have to do is look at a map. There was no secret their.

Al least use the Egyptian blodd libel that soldiers that never existed were being slaughtered in a place they never were.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Darranar]

53. Well...

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

As I said, Albert Einstein was a very wise man.

[Name removed]

50. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fight_n_back]

76. What?

Did you come in late?

The premise of the thread is that LBJ conspired to hide the truth about what REALLY happened to the Liberty.

It is proposing a conspiracy. You say that believing in conspiracies is not progressive so I will take you at your word that you are not a progressive. It explains a lot actually.

[Equinox]

80. Oh..Ok...

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Darranar]

55. The moderate always gets blasted...

anyway, the decision time for the strikes you cited above was a lot shorter than for this. It could ave been intentional, it could not have been - I don't know.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Equinox]

66. LOL...Darranar.

:toast:

[Lithos]

97. Time now to lock this thread

Seeing as most do not wish to stay on topic about the thread.

Lithos
FA/NS Moderator
Democratic Underground