Israel testing nasty weapons in Gaza, claims Mads Gilbert

[DogPoundPup]

ISRAEL is testing a new "extremely nasty" type of weapon in Gaza, two medics charged as they returned home to Norwayafter spending 10 days working at a hospital in the war-torn Palestinian territory.

"There's a very strong suspicion I think that Gaza is now being used as a test laboratory for new weapons," Mads Gilbert said at Oslo's Gardermoen airport, commenting on the kinds of injuries he and his colleague Erik Fosse had seen while working at the Shifa Hospital in Gaza.

The two medics, who were sent into the war zone by the pro-Palestinian aid organisation NORWAC on December 31, said they had seen clear signs that Dense Inert Metal Explosives (DIME), an experimental kind of explosive, were being used in Gaza.

"This is a new generation of very powerful small explosives that detonates with an extreme power and dissipates its power within a range of five to 10 metres," Mr Gilbert, 61, said.

"We have not seen the casualties affected directly by the bomb because they are normally torn to pieces and do not survive, but we have seen a number of very brutal amputations ... without shrapnel injuries which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons," he said.

The weapon "causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. It looks very different (from a shrapnel injury). I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last 30 years in different war zones, and this looks completely different", Mr Fosse, 58, said.

"If you are in the immediate (vicinity of) a DIME weapon, it's like your legs get torn off. It's an enormous pressure wave and there is no shrapnel," he explained.
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24905242-5005961,00.html

[scarletwoman]

1. Courtesy of U.S. "foreign aid" to Israel, no doubt. (nt)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

20. Nothing to back that up either

Neither the US nor Israel have declared they have DIME type of weapons. A better question would be thermobaric.

[Duckhunter935]

2. DIME is used for Low Collateral Damage

Dense Inert Metal Explosive (DIME) is uniquely suited for Low Collateral Damage. It produces lower pressure but increased impulse in the near field. Far Field damage is reduced (no frags/ impulse rolloff). The lethal footprint can be tuned to precision footprint. Strike Weapon Scaling Tests were completed in August of 2004), and full-scale Mk-82 tests were in the planning stage as of early 2005. DARPA funded RPG defense system feasibility tests in January 2005, which were successful.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

I guess they can not win, they should just not even try to limit it. People bitch anyways

[thewiseguy]

5. People bitch anyways?

:mad: :puke:

[scarletwoman]

6. Yeah, how inconsiderate of "people" to not appreciate that they are being experimented on.

How about recognising the right of Palestine to exist? Or is that too radical a notion?

Apologists for war crimes make me ill.

sw

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Actually there is no evidence that DIME has been fielded

If it existed, its use would not be a war crime under current international standards
If it existed and was being used it would be to minimize collateral damage.
If it existed, it would be more expensive than standard ordnance

So, if it exists, and if it was used, it would be more expensive to use and be a more humane weapon.

[scarletwoman]

9. "...a more humane weapon" You've got to be fucking kidding. Since when are ANY weapons "humane"?

My gawd. If you're what passes as "progressive" these days, I sure as hell want no part.

Un-fucking-believable.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. I'm sorry that relative comparisions upset you so

The Geneva Conventions define what is allowed and not allowed as weapons of war. Much of the criteria is how humane it is. For example,soft points/hollow points are not considered humane and are not to be used in combat. Interestingly enough, there is no such limitation on civilian ammunition in the US, and they are in fact the preferred rounds by both police and civilians. So yes, some weapons and ordance are more humane than others.

As a progressive I deal with the facts on the ground and try and make them better. War is a bad thing. However until we as a nation and later we as a planet solve scarcity based economics, acknowledge universal human rights, and insure everyone has decent food and shelter, war going to be around at some level. So more humane weapons matter, until weapons can be eliminated from human interaction.

[scarletwoman]

11. Sorry, but that's like saying it's better to be raped by someone who doesn't beat your face in.

I'm saying that rape is an unacceptable act no matter what.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. Your hyperbole destroys your argument

and rape != war/conflict

[scarletwoman]

13. Wow. Just wow. You don't get that rape is all about violent domination?

Have you no knowledge of history? Of how rape has always been part and parcel of military victory?

I'm astonished. Rape is an act of violent domination, just as war is. Would you counsel a woman attacked by a rapist to just "lay back and accept it"? To not fight back?

sw

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. I do, but its not the same a wars between people competing over scarcity

of resources. They are both wrong and evil, but they are also quite different. Equating the two is what destroys your argument about the relative humaneness of weapons.

[scarletwoman]

15. My argument is NOT about "the relative humaneness of weapons"!

I don't believe that ANY weapons are "humane". YOU'RE the one arguing that there are degrees of "humaneness" to weaponry.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Actually it is...

In post 8 I point out that DIME is not confirmed as fielded by anyone and if it was it would be legal and more humane that standard ordnance. In Post 9 you argue there is not such thing as a humane weapon.

I am supporting that there is relative humaneness and you are saying there is not. By your logic there would be no difference between a butter knife and nerve gas.

[scarletwoman]

19. If it causes harm to living beings then there's no difference.

Is someone less dead if they are stabbed in the heart than if they were blown up by a land mine?

[GoesTo11]

21. The idea is it would cause harm to fewer living beings

What does IDF do if Hamas militants are firing from apartment A and civilians are in apartment B, and IDF has determined that it's necessary to stop the firing?

Should they blow up apartment A and apartment B with a less precise weapon, or just apartment A?

If you want to outsmart me, you can suggest they shouldn't blow up either apartment, and I admit in advance that I haven't thought of that possibility.

[Shaktimaan]

32. well, the idea that there are degrees of humanity regarding weapons is the basis for many of our...

Laws of War. Some weapons are considered so inhumane and/or destructive that their use is banned. Mustard gas for instance. Pretty much the entire world agrees that it is better to be shot then killed via mustard gas.

These laws are in place specifically to limit the amount of pain and suffering that goes along with war. Yes, in war pain and suffering are unavoidable, we all realize this. But if a weapon can be created that has a much lower probability of causing collateral damage then isn't it by definition a more humane weapon?

Or if it is just the word "humane" that you object to, forget about the semantics. If weapons must be used, if war is happening, one way or another, then isn't it preferable to use weapons that will leave less civilians dead and wounded than otherwise? Isn't a gun intrinsically less harmful than a nuclear bomb? When possible shouldn't we fight with guns rather than nukes?

If not, if it doesn't matter, then why has the world bothered to pass all of these laws in the first place? All war is bad, but some wars are worse than others.

[backwoodsbob]

22. you're right...and

wouldn't you agree getting thousands of rockets launched at you over a few years = mental rape?

[scarletwoman]

24. So, you would counsel the victim of rape to just lay back and enjoy it, instead of fighting back.

Got it.

Talk to me about "mental rape" when it's Israeli homes being bulldozed, when it's Israeli borders being closed by an occupying power, when it's Israeli farmlands being appropriated, when it's Israeli children being fed on starvation rations.

Israel is a terrorist state, a rogue nation being enabled by the lowest of the low neocons and military-industrial complex right wing factions of the U.S. Why the hell should I support that shit?

sw

[thewiseguy]

16. More humane weapon?

:puke:

[scarletwoman]

18. Yeah. Ain't it wunnerful?

[phoebe]

3. seem to remember some "odd" injuries showing up in Iraq too

victims being hollowed out or the like ??

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Don't forget the claims that the bodies shrunk too

[ProgressiveProfessor]

7. There has been unverified claims of this in the past

The US has not announced the fielding of a weapon of this type, though research certainly has been done.

The IDF has not announced the fielding of a weapon of this type, it is unknown if research has been done.

Until someone finds a dud, direct evidence, or either nation confirms existence and use, its just supposition. Comments on the injuries are valid, the cause is speculation at this point.

Best technical article out there looks to be: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/dime.htm

[Tripmann]

23. Actually,

Doesn't israel 'officially' have no nuclear weapons? While we're on the subject of declaring ordinance? Despite the fact an israeli called Mordechai Vanunu spent, what, 18 years in jail for disclosing the fact that israel has nuclear weapons, apparently isreal doesn't have any.

Thank heavens israel is allowing so many reporters into gaza to record evidence of the variety and usage of their ordinance against the men women and children of gaza....

[subsuelo]

25. Israel Accused of Testing Experimental Weapons in Gaza

Two Norwegian doctors who have just returned from Gaza have accused Israel of testing a new experimental weapon known as Dense Inert Metal Explosives, or DIME. The weapon causes the tissue to be torn from the flesh. Dr. Mads Gilbert said, “We have seen a number of very brutal amputations…without shrapnel injuries, which we strongly suspect must have been caused by the DIME weapons.” Dr. Erik Fosse said, “I have seen and treated a lot of different injuries for the last thirty years in different war zones, and this looks completely different.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/13/headlines#5">Democracy Now - read more

[PDJane]

26. I listened to this earlier..........

and it is more than plausible.

[GoesTo11]

27. We need some more threads announcing this.

[cboy4]

28. Israeli experts deny any such usage of DIME by the IDF in Gaza.

Shlomo Brom, former brigadier general who consulted international legal experts on weapons use as head of the IDF's Strategic Planning division, derided human rights groups' allegations on white phosphorus and DIME as political propaganda.

"The weapons itself are not illegal. Whether they are used in keeping with international law is a matter of interpretation. To judge you need all of the operational considerations and intelligence available. Of course, they don't have it, so they are playing a very irresponsible role," he says.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0114/p07s01-wome.html?page=2

[Sebastian Doyle]

29. From the PNAC manifesto "Rebuilding Americas Defenses" in 2000.

"New methods of attack -- electronic, 'non-lethal', biological -- will be more widely available ... combat likely will take place in new dimensions, in space, cyberspace, and perhaps the world of microbes ... advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool"

Never forget that the PNAC manifesto was written in full collaboration with the Israeli right wing.

[Fozzledick]

30. Don't forget the Penis-Melting Zionist Robot Combs!!!

No doubt, this comb was a laser-controlled surgical robot that penetrates the skull to the lower body and emasculates a man!!
I wanted to tell that man who fell victim to the electronic comb: 'You jackass, how can you put a comb from a man you don't know to your head, while even relatives avoid using the same comb?!' ... That man , who, as it is claimed, is from West Africa, is an imperialist Zionist agent that was sent to prevent our people from procreating and multiplying.

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/1126/

[GoesTo11]

31. If Israel denies it, then it's true.