Legal expert: Rising Gaza death toll doesn't mean IDF acts are disproportionate

[Behind the Aegis]

The fact that hundreds of Palestinians have been killed during the operation in Gaza, compared to fewer than 20 Israelis, has nothing to do with the question of whether the operation is legal according to international law, says Prof. Yuval Shany, an expert in international law from Hebrew University's law faculty.

The relevant question, he said, is "whether the operation is proportionate to the provocation that led to it. When a single Qassam is fired, the state cannot invade and conquer an entire country. There must be a measure of proportion between the action and the reaction. But here, we are not talking about a single Qassam, but about years of Qassams."

Israel, he continued, "is permitted to use force to the degree necessary to end the attacks against it. Therefore, it is legal as long as it is meant to prevent the attacks." However, Shany stressed, by law, Israel would not have the right to use force to effect regime change in the Gaza Strip. Israel would also have no right to deliberately target Palestinian civilians, even though Hamas deliberately targets Israeli civilians: One side's illegal actions do not entitle the other side to violate the law as well.

"In wartime, it is permissible to attack military targets only," Shany explained. "This means targets that make a significant contribution to the other side's war effort: Qassam launchers, Hamas fighting forces, weapons storehouses and tunnels."

more...

[FarrenH]

1. Most of us trust our own moral compasses

more than the opinions of Israeli legal experts.

The name "John Yoo" comes to mind

[GoesTo11]

24. W trusted his own moral compass

There's something to be said for reasoning through ethical issues. Solid ethical reasoning can refute John Yoo more effectively than saying you have a different gut feel than W.

[lapfog_1]

2. Of course, this would only be relevant IF Hamas had broke

the cease fire agreement first. Which is not the case, as we now know.

See this CNN report.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

Multiple sources confirm.

And the years of Qassams that he is talking about stopped at the cease fire.

Israel cannot invade after signing a cease fire because of things that happened 2 years ago or 10 years ago. There has to be a present (post cease fire) provocation. Digging a tunnel is not sufficient.

Not to mention that blockades (such as the one that Israel perpetrated on Gaza) is, according to all rules of international warfare, an act of aggression.

So, in effect, if Hamas had the means to destroy a major city in Israel, and did so... your Professor Shany is making a case that it is not only allowed by the rules of war (if there was a military target in that city), but perfectly acceptable. Being that Gaza is the aggrieved party in this current conflict.

That's the problem with war... sometimes might does NOT make right.

Israel (and their supporters here) are NOT winning the "hearts and minds" of the rest of the world. And, despite their apparent belief to the contrary, they really need to win the "PR" war.

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Hamas did break the ceasefire agreement.

However, that fact is lost on those who just can't imagine Israel wasn't responsible and want Israel to be responsible.

"There has to be a present (post cease fire) provocation." There was.

"Digging a tunnel is not sufficient." According to you?

And sometimes, kicking the bigger kid repeatedly, might just get you punched out.

[lapfog_1]

4. What was the provocation?

Did you bother to look at the CNN report?

It's kinda been all over the news (that which isn't controlled by the people who don't want anyone here to see anything OTHER than the Israeli side in this conflict).

Digging a tunnel isn't an recognized act of war. You can look it up. Criminal act, perhaps... was the tunnel even completed to the border? Or just started? What was the purpose? Anyway, it matters not, Israel killed 6 members of Hamas first, after they signed a cease fire. Not the other way around, as so many here and on the MSM have claimed since the current conflict started.

"kicking the bigger kid repeatedly might just get you punched out".

And being the bully on the block will only stiffen the resolve of those who will, someday, have the means to remove the bully.

Every time Israel thinks it's winning a war, it's losing the peace.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. You are just all over the place.

I saw the CNN report. And? That report failed to report the incoming rockets during the ceasefire, clear violations.

"Digging a tunnel isn't an recognized act of war." "Act of war," and here I thought we were talking about violations of a ceasefire.

"...after they signed a cease fire." There was no "signing" to my knowledge.

"Not the other way around, as so many here and on the MSM have claimed since the current conflict started." Yes, because so many here and the MSM couldn't possibly be wrong or have their own agenda. :eyes:

"And being the bully on the block will only stiffen the resolve of those who will, someday, have the means to remove the bully." And there you have it. Your obvious bias and probably secret desire.

"Every time Israel thinks it's winning a war, it's losing the peace." Spoken like a true poster "hoping" for the death of Israel, one way or another.

[lapfog_1]

6. you are hopeless.

I don't wish the death of Israel. That is a feeble attempt to "label" me as someone you no longer have to listen to, simply because I think Israel is wrong to have started this war on a captive civilian populace. 140 sq mile prison camp.

I wish there was a way to duplicate the land that Israel occupies and give it to both parties. Or that some arrangement could be made for both groups to live together on the same land. I actually think that a state which is created to provide any religious group a ruling majority is wrong. That would include the quite a number of Islamic nations, a few Catholic countries, and Israel. Diversity and freedom FROM religion are important guiding principals in establishing nation states. Not the opposite.

And, no, I'm not "all over the map".

The CNN report clearly shows that ISRAEL targeted those Hamas members first, in violation of the in place cease fire (I have no idea if one was signed or not, but it was certainly agreed to by both parties because BOTH parties are yammering about how the other violated the agreement first, and that justifies their war, so I am taking them both at their word... there was a cease fire agreement).

You simply have your head in the sand so far that you refuse to see anything from any perspective other than Israel.

The United States was founded on religious freedom. We have welcomed members of all faiths and heritage. Not perfectly, but better than most nations. The United States is NOT Israel and I do not want our nations fate bound to that of Israel. I do not believe that the Arabs were treated fairly when the world, through it's collective guilt in not stopping Hitler and his "final solution", took the Arab land and gave it to the Jews. Arguing over whether someone 2000 years ago "owned" that land or someone as recently as 200 years ago "owned" it is simply silly.

Israel is losing the peace, AGAIN. There will be even less support for their actions as time goes on. It should be the opposite. But nobody likes the bully, especially the child killing bully. Just like the United States fell right into OBL's trap by invading Iraq. After 9/11, the US had EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE on our "side". Even North Koreans. Even Iran.
Now, 7 years later, who do we have on our side? Why is that? Israel is making the same mistake.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

8. Very well put, lapfog_1. Consider the possibility that, albeit subconsciously...

it's possible it is Behind the Aegis who wishes the death of Israel. True or not, BtA's
zealotry certainly diminishes whatever support Israel might have enjoyed in the world community.

BtA brings Arlo Guthrie in 'Alice's Restaurant to mind--

And I went up there, I said, "Shrink, I want to kill. I mean, I wanna, I
wanna kill. Kill." I wanna, I wanna see, I wanna see blood and gore
and
guts and veins in my teeth. Eat dead burnt bodies. I mean kill, Kill,
KILL, KILL." And I started jumpin up and down yelling, "KILL, KILL."
and
he started jumpin up and down with me and we was both jumpin up
and down
yelling, "KILL, KILL." And the sargent came over, pinned a medal on
me,
sent me down the hall, said, "You're our boy."

I find it an extremely sad comment on the state of humanity that killing each other is
what far too many humans do best.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

11. Projection, BtA? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

12. No, I am familiar with your posts.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

17. Obviously not. n/t

[lapfog_1]

15. Wow. just wow.

I have never ever stated that I want to see Israel "dead". Nor have I ever blamed Israel for the evils of the world, not even the rest of the Middle East. Until Israel started bombing the shit out of Gaza, very few of their fellow Muslims in the Middle East gave a crap about Gaza or the Palestinians.

Osama himself only latches onto the Israel / Palestinian conflict (or did when he was releasing tapes) when it heats up... it's my firm belief that Osama, if he is in fact still alive, doesn't get a rat's ass about Palestine. He was much more concerned about Americans in HIS country, Saudi Arabia. If we hadn't stationed garrisons all over Saudi Arabia after the first Gulf War, his "holy land", I don't think he would have cared all that much about the United States, either. If anyone every bothered to actually read his writings and his recorded conversations, this was the issue that pushed his buttons. Eventually, had he actually established a "pan-Islamic caliphate" to encompass most of the Islamic world (North Africa all the way to Indonesia) he might have gotten around to "going to war" against Israel. But not until his first real war was over, his war against the corrupt secular governments (and the Sh-ia governments too) of the Arab/Islamic world. But I doubt even his "grand caliphate" was ever more than a tale to entice the recruits, so they could believe that they were Islamic Freedom Fighters and not just terrorists for hire.

Israel was certainly not to blame for OBL. Or for Iran. Or even Saddam and our Iraq adventure (though I suspect some in OUR government thought that the best way to secure Israel was to conquer Iraq... and then there was all that oil NOT in the control of our "friends" the Saudis). But even if that was part of our government's motives for war in Iraq, it's hardly Israels fault.

And you really need to quit thinking that anyone that says that Israel is wrong "hates Jews". That's only true in your twisted imagination, it does nothing to bring anyone else to the side of Israel. I think Israel in wrong. It is losing a PR war. It will continue to lose the PR war so long as it uses it's considerable military might against basically unarmed civilians. If it wants to win, it needs to prove to the people of Gaza that it is NOT what Hamas teaches. That it can live with Palestinians in peace and prosperity. Lift the blockade. Open the borders. Make funds available to build new homes and buildings in Gaza. Hire the people that live there. Give them more of the land (yeah, that sucks, but there you go). 1.2 million people in an area that is 7 miles wide and 20 miles long is simply unsustainable. And then there is the issue of a "two state" solution. Somehow, redraw the maps so the west bank and Gaza are connected, without chopping Israel in half. Propose that Jerusalem NOT be the capital of Israel but that it be a "holy city" open to Christians, Jews, and Muslims. Yeah, there will be "terrorist" attacks... and that's sad, but instead of blaming an entire people, treat them the way we SHOULD have here, as criminal acts. To be prevented if possible, and culprits prosecuted for their crimes. But not a phony "War on Terrorism" as if that was even possible.

Or don't. I'm not any of those religions, so it really isn't that big a deal to me. But my tax dollars are paying for these wars and I'm tired of them.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. *rolling eyes*

I have have mistaken you for another person with a similar avatar, but I was under the assumption you were a "one-stater" poster. Those who 'favor' the one-state solution are in favor of the death of Israel. If this is not you, then I apologize.

"And you really need to quit thinking that anyone that says that Israel is wrong "hates Jews"." And you really need to quit telling me what I do and don't think, as you aren't very good at it. That is a manifestation of your own "twisted imagination." The rest of that paragraph reads like someone who thinks there is going to be a parade with flowers and balloons and the Israelis and Palestinians are going to get together for a big box social. :eyes:

"Or don't. I'm not any of those religions, so it really isn't that big a deal to me. But my tax dollars are paying for these wars and I'm tired of them." And that says it all!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. The CNN report does not say what you claim it does

The video NEVER said that there were no Qassam attacks during the first four months of the hudna. There are media reports of attacks in June at a minimum. It does say the the tunnel raid pretty well ended things, and it did.

The hudna was over before the air strikes started. Hamas canceled it. There was also a major increase in rockets prior to the air strikes, not only quantity but long range ones as well.

[shira]

13. gotta love the "ceasefire experts" with their tinfoil hats

Hamas launches about 40 rockets/mortars and digs a tunnel towards Israel's border (for what, to buy cigarettes?)......but not until Israel retaliates in measure is the ceasefire over due to Israel.

and on it goes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. What it boils down to is how big does an incident have to be to "break" the hudna

Is it measured in rockets, bodies, or pounds of HE? Clearly the biggest violation was the tunnel raid, but it wasn't like it was pristine prior to that.

[lapfog_1]

16. OK, so the "biggest violation" was the tunnel raid.

The one reported in the CNN report. The one that killed 6 Hamas people (terrorists, freedom fighters, police men, whatever).

After that, Hamas started launching their wholly ineffective rockets again.

And the response to that is to kill nearly a thousand people in Gaza. Injure and maim what, 5 times that number? 10 times?

And for what? To kill a couple of hundred "Hamas terrorists"? And how soon will those be replaced by young men now, the ones seeing their older brothers or fathers killed for being Hamas?

How does this work to Israel's advantage?

IF they don't want them tunneling, do what we are doing here... build a wall. Build it from the border with Egypt all the way around to the sea, and then out to sea for a mile or so.

Install the listening devices (as we have with our border with Mexico). And if anyone tunnels in under the wall, be there with a bunch of IDF when they come up out of the ground. Just like our border patrol does now.

Only, instead of the border we have with Mexico... the Gaza border with Israel is what, 30 miles total? Maybe 40.

What can it possibly cost? The you can more or less safely ignore Gaza. It becomes Egypt's problem.

It seems that this is the solution for the West Bank. Why not for Gaza?

Yes, it won't stop the rockets. But if the "incident" that killed the cease fire was a tunnel... it could stop THAT. So lift the blockade and renew the cease fire. And give the people in Gaza a way to earn a living and some hope for the future. That stops terrorists far better than all the bombs and bullets ever could.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Actually rockets were being launched prior to the tunnel event

Hamas significantly stepped them up afterward. Then they canceled the hudna. The meme that Israeli tunnel attack broke the hudna is simply not true.

Your solution like many has a chicken and egg problem. Neither side is will to stan down at this point. Israelis say they did when they first left Gaza and got 6000 rockets and mortars shot at them. Hamas is refusing any ceasefire which limits their ability to punish aggression, including blockades. There is no easy answer at this point.

[lapfog_1]

30. Not from Hamas.

Which Israel agrees is the facts.

http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/news/war/6770-video-israel-admits-qno-hamas-rockets-were-fired-during-ceasefireq.html

[methinks2]

27. You're right on with most of your arguments

But the wall wouldn't work because it would seperate Israel from the natual gas supplies on the Gaza coast. Israeli's have already contracted with a british co for that gas.

[lapfog_1]

29. Here is an even more damming link then.

Israeli Spokesman Merk Regev STATES that although there were a few rockets fired after the cease fire took effect, those were not Hamas rockets. He goes on to agree that ISRAEL broke the cease fire.

http://tvnewslies.org/tvnl/index.php/news/war/6770-video-israel-admits-qno-hamas-rockets-were-fired-during-ceasefireq.html

But, for some, even a statement by an Israeli official won't be sufficient.

[scarletwoman]

18. Legal expert John Yoo says torture is okay. (nt)

[bunnies]

19. "In wartime, it is permissible to attack military targets only,"

Also from your legal expert. Oops! Sorry Mommy-Baby clinic!

[Marrah_G]

20. I strongly disagree with you on this. n/t

[HeraldSquare212]

21. There's an open question as to whether this is to be considered war or not

under international law. A non-state actor as an enemy does not constitute a war under international law, and the Israeli government has used different phrases to describe what's going on, perhaps in recognition of that.

[Tripmann]

22. Theres nothing like expert input from an impartial source.

"The fact that hundreds of Palestinians have been killed during the operation in Gaza, compared to fewer than 20 Israelis, has nothing to do with the question of whether the operation is legal according to international law, says Prof. Yuval Shany, an expert in international law from Hebrew University's law faculty."

In other news Professor Ronald Mc Donald, an independent and impartial expert in international fast food matters, has proclaimed eating Big Macs is good for you. This, combined with new legal arguements about the definition of obesity, is seen as a giant leap forward for the nations health.

Morality and common sense doesn't require professional argument.

[High Plains]

25. Israel's very own John Yoo.

[High Plains]

26. Give that man the Dershowitz Award.