Disproportionate doesn't describe it

[shira]

You hear constantly that Hamas is using "human shields" in Gaza - that they deliberately fight behind Palestinian civilians because they know that Israel, being too moral to kill civilians, will be reluctant to fire back at them.

But then you see the TV footage of dead fathers, mothers and children being pulled from the rubble of Gazan apartment buildings. You see the corpses lined up for burial, you hear about entire families being wiped out.

<snip>

I'm not saying the IDF is deliberately targeting ordinary Palestinians. I take the IDF's word that it is being about as surgical as possible about hitting Hamas targets, and doing all it can not to hit homes, schools, shops and other sites that are not part of the Gazan regime.

<snip>

I TRY to keep a perspective. By yesterday, there were about 1,000 Palestinian deaths in the war, but if Hamas had the power the IDF has, there wouldn't be 1,000 Israeli deaths, there would be - God only knows. It's impossible to imagine Israel being here if the balance of power between the IDF and Hamas were reversed.

I compare Israel to other countries. Here we're wondering whether we killed 400 Gazan civilians, or 500, or 600. I doubt if anyone can estimate to the nearest 10,000 the number of Iraqi civilians killed in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Except for the fascist fringe, Israelis don't revel in the killing of civilians. We don't pass around candy. Without exception, we don't mutilate. We don't get out-and-out barbaric. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and other Palestinian terror organizations, along with their followers, are known to get barbaric.

I'm ashamed of Israel in this war, and in this whole, long occupation. But when I compare our country's history to those of other countries, then I figure that on the whole, we have nothing to apologize for. And when I compare our record of "purity of arms" to that of the Palestinians, then I figure our society is morally superior to theirs.

But this war has narrowed the gap considerably.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950850533&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull


This article stands as a great example for non-Jews or non-Israelis, who often read hyper self-critical essays written by Jews and then come to the false conclusion that Israel must therefore be "bad" since a Jewish person like Larry Derfner writes that he is ashamed of Israel due to this war (and since a Jew says this, it must be true).

However, unlike Israel's most hostile critics who use similar or more hostile articles to demonize Israel, Derfner still takes for granted that the IDF does the best it can, and compared to other wars like Iraq with its 10's of thousands killed by NATO forces, he realizes that in comparison to Hamas or even Western NATO forces - that although he feels very bad and sorry for Palestinian civilians, he still believes he has nothing to apologize for.

The point is that rational progressive critics of Israel WRT this war, or Israel's policies in general, are not necessarily irrational haters of Israel who are little more than the mirror image of their tinfoilhat wearing, Islamophobic counterparts. Hyper self-criticism within the Jewish world goes back thousands of years. Such public shaming that inflates certain "sins" is designed to provoke immediate change. This now tends to also be a Western Civ. trait. But this kind of rhetoric is also deceptive in several ways. One, it removes agency from the "other", as though Israel is 100% responsible for a solution, even though it takes 2 to tango. And two, without similar self-criticism or introspection from within the Arab/Muslim world, the uninformed public perception is that Palestinians must be, for the most part innocent victims, while Israel is "admittedly" guilty of nearly everything they are accused of. Hyper, self-criticism is of course also dangerous because it is almost always used as fodder for antisemites.

[John Q. Citizen]

1. There are no NATO forces in Iraq.

[Chulanowa]

2. So the whole argument hinges on a gigantic "if"

IF Hamas had Israel's military capability, then the author theorizes it would go hog-wild on Israel, and thus, a thousand dead Gazans is justified, because of an imaginary situation coming to a pretend conclusion.

He's justifying an unpleasant reality by trying to counter it with a worse fiction. Sort of like, you know, a probable million Iraqis dead is justified because what might have happened if Saddam had had nuclear weapons.

It's fucking awful logic and is in no, way, shape, or form justification for what's happened. The author shouldn't just be ashamed of Israel, he should be ashamed of himself, too.

[Shaktimaan]

9. Is that what you got from this article?

That the author thinks the Gaza campaign is justified because of what Hamas would probably do if their military situations were reversed?

Did you actually read the article? He wasn't saying anything even remotely similar to that.

[Chulanowa]

11. If you say so.

"I TRY to keep a perspective. By yesterday, there were about 1,000 Palestinian deaths in the war, but if Hamas had the power the IDF has, there wouldn't be 1,000 Israeli deaths, there would be - God only knows. It's impossible to imagine Israel being here if the balance of power between the IDF and Hamas were reversed.
<...>
But when I compare our country's history to those of other countries, then I figure that on the whole, we have nothing to apologize for. And when I compare our record of "purity of arms" to that of the Palestinians, then I figure our society is morally superior to theirs."

You can choose to not read that as justification. You can also choose to believe that Bush has kept us safe, if you like.

[shira]

14. you see what you want to see

You probably believe the author's "justification" would have been legit in his eyes 4 months ago, in the middle of the ceasefire when there was the most quiet - as though the 200 rockets during Christmas week 2008 was only an excuse to go to war.

More crackpot theory in I/P. Give Hamas/PLO every possible benefit of the doubt, never questioning them, while minimizing and ignoring the evidence against them. Meanwhile, do just the opposite with Israel, question everything, ignore evidence exonnerating them, and buy into every zany, crackpot conspiracy theory that demonizes them.

Typical.

[Chulanowa]

18. The only crackpot theory is the author's premise

He's basing his argument on an IF, THEN situation. A completely fictional situation that will never be seen. He plays to your fears to win your sympathies and then pushes you to join him in a heartfelt agreement that not only is killing over a thousand people okay, but it's okay simply because, hey, Israelis are just plain better people than Palestinians.

Ignore evidence exonerating Israel? There's no evidence in this article, just mindless speculation with a side of nationalist drivel. As for buying into zany, crackpot stuff, you might want to revisit the timeline. Christmas Week 2008? This whole thing started with Israel's breaking of the cease-fire on November 4, 2008. Now, feel free to argue that Israel felt justified in doing so, I'm not going to say they were, or they weren't. Just that that's what happened.

And... PLO? Get with the times. PLO's in the nursing home, eating tapioca and reminiscing about the "good ol' days" with Islamic Jihad and whining that the whippersnappers never come visit.

[shira]

25. ditto

again, Derfner doesn't justify Israel's response to 300 rockets Christmas week with, "if they had our weapons, dear God...". Do you think with Hamas with Israel's weapons (and Israel completely outgunned) would result in only 1000 deaths in 3 weeks? Can you honestly answer that?

As for how this all started, say what you will about Nov. 4, as if Israel "provoked" Hamas into not renewing a ceasefire (yeah, the tunnel was no biggie - if Israel dug it, only then would that have been THE provocation - Hamas does it, no biggie). Do you have that low an opinion of Hamas that they're so stupid they can be easily provoked into a war like this by Israel and thens firing 300 rockets Christmas week? You give Israel THAT much credit that they know exactly how to pull Hamas' strings and Hamas just falls for it? :rofl:

THAT 300 rockets was the cause of Israel's response. Hamas had a choice and they decided they wanted war. They got it. No country in the world would put up with 300 rockets in one week. And the very fact Hamas continues to shoot rockets just goes to show Israel still has unfinished business. There comes a time that Hamas must be responsible for their actions. You cannot expect Israel to stop right now with Hamas still shooting rockets.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

3. You must be exhausted.

[shira]

15. I thought I made a good point

care to comment, critique, or just continue to defame/demonize?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. I think your continual efforts to mimize these horrific events is shameless.

[shira]

26. No, they ARE horrific events

I feel bad for all innocent Palestinians caught in the crossfire. But unlike you, I don't pretend that Hamas is good for Palestinians and is fighting for their rights. If you love Palestinians, you cannot help but be disgusted at Hamas for what they do to Gazans. It is you minimizing the evil that Hamas really is.

Have you noticed how your "comrades" here have zero sympathy for Sderot civilians? Do you feel the same way? Or are they people, just like Palestinians, who you would argue should not be held accountable for their govt's decisions? Or should there be some double standard WRT Israeli targets of Hamas?

[okiru109]

4. "I figure our society is morally superior to theirs" - sums up the nut of the issue well

so sad

[shira]

8. Derfner may be referring generally to something like this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html

Not all leftists are nuts who see little to no difference between a Hamas-run society vs. any Western Civ. society.

[razors edge]

36. No, not all,

just the majority of us leftists are nuts, as you call us.

Are you sure you are on the right board?

[shira]

39. B. Obama stated:

"If somebody was sending rockets into my house where my two daughters sleep at night, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop that. And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing."

HRC, Rahm Emanuel, etc.. are all on board with the same message. Your nutty extreme position on I/P is thankfully irrelevant.

Are you sure you are on the right board?

[razors edge]

45. We know all about Rahm's family buisness,

it would seem a little odd for him to not back this fine family tradition wouldn't it?

You sure do like calling people names don't you?

Obviously you are running out of logical dialog and resorting to you base.

Israel is going into the wilderness again, this time of her own choosing.

[tekisui]

5. If my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.

If Hamas was funded and armed by the US, Israel wouldn't go in. They would keep each other in check. After all, they'd be two nuclear powers.

[shaayecanaan]

6. "This now tends to also be a Western Civ. trait."

You're getting close.

Derfner still takes for granted that the IDF does the best it can, and compared to other wars like Iraq with its 10's of thousands killed by NATO forces, he realizes that in comparison to Hamas or even Western NATO forces - that although he feels very bad and sorry for Palestinian civilians, he still believes he has nothing to apologize for.

This is true. The US received far less criticism for killing Albanian refugees during the Kosovo war than Israel receives for killing Palestinians.

Now, that might be enough for you to simply dismiss criticism of Israel as anti-semitism, were it not for the answer to this simple question:- how many blacks do you think were killed by white colonists in South Africa (in total)?

The answer has something to do with your oft-repeated remark: Intent is important.

(Hint: it was a lot less than the amount of people killed in the black-vs-black Difaqane war)

[shira]

7. um, yeah

"You're getting close".

What does that mean?

As for S.Africa comparisons, please tell - how many blacks were killed by white colonists?

Do tell and I'll play along, pretending that black S.Africans had their own version of Hamas, or that Israelis were colonists representing some nation at one time.

[shaayecanaan]

10. Re: South Africa

Black deaths at the hands of white colonists: 15,000 over two hundred years.

White deaths at the hands of white colonists: 55,000 (mainly the two Boer Wars)

Black deaths at the hands of blacks: 1.5 million (mainly the Difaqane and the Zulu Civil War).

Do tell and I'll play along, pretending that black S.Africans had their own version of Hamas, or that Israelis were colonists representing some nation at one time.

Pretend away:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poqo

[shira]

16. you're still pretending

that S.Africans blacks had a similar, hate-filled and intolerant, intractable movement like Palestinian leadership. S.African black leadership didn't brainwash their children into being intolerant haters of whites. They didn't reject every proposal for real peace. Their goal wasn't to remain in perpetual war, have aims of genocidally destroy white society and later replace it via ethnic cleansing with black society.

There is no comparison and it's silly to go further with this waste of time.

And again, what did you mean by quoting "this now tends to be a Western Civ. trait" and replying "you're close"? Do you disagree? Until only recently in modern history, leadership in all societies - whether the "most civilized" or completely uncivilized - were never self-critical, as almost every society (bar none) worked very hard to suppress any type of dissent against the ruling govt.

[shaayecanaan]

23. Actually, both UwS and Poqo recruited children

particularly during the Soweto uprising. Children often served as foot soldiers in turf wars between the rival ANC and PAC. People suspected of collaboration were "necklaced" - a tyre was placed around their neck, filled with gasoline, and set on fire. It often took fifteen minutes for the victim to die while his or head slowly cooked.

Tolerance of such actions went all the way to the top. Winnie Mandela, wife of Nelson Mandela once said "with our matches and our necklaces we will liberate this country from apartheid". She is widely belived to have ordered the death of a 12-year old suspected collaborator named Stompie from the Soweto townships.

Im not sure what aspect it is that you're having trouble with - that South African blacks were not angels or that Arabs are not as evil as you think they are.

As for peace negotiations, the last serious offer for a peaceable resolution was made by the Palestinians. It was based on the "balloon and strings" proposal that arose from the Taba talks. Israel rejected it.

[shira]

27. South African blacks

did not have a leadership that was presented fair deals by whites, only to turn them down, and use the common black people as pawns for more war on their hated white enemy - using religious based intolerance similar to WW2 era Germany hate propaganda.

[shaayecanaan]

38. That's the thing...

the Palestinians have never been presented with a fair deal.

Do you think the South African blacks would have taken a deal that gave them 60% of their own land?

[EFerrari]

12. In the context of attacks on hospitals, the entitlement in this piece is quite disgusting.

Moral superiority, my granny. Purity of arms, my granny.

[shira]

13. once again

the author is probably generalizing about this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mitchell-bard/video-reveals-that-a-lack_b_156565.html

Each and every time I refer to this evidence, it's greeted with the sound of crickets. If you disagree with the main point of the article, can you please explain why?

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. Maybe because that 'evidence' seems completely irrelevant

Israeli military tells a Palestinian they're going to destroy his house; he gets friends to voluntarily stand on the roof and/or around the house. Israelis see this has happened, and decide not to destroy the house and kill the people.

Good, I'd say. It shows the Palestinians are in fairly desperate straits, but that, back in 2008, the Israelis were behaving reasonably, when confronted with the likelihood they'd kill people while they try to destroy someone's house.

The author claims this shows Hamas lacks a 'moral centre'. I disagree. What the man's involvement with Hamas was, isn't explained; but what it shows is that his fellow Palestinians don't think he and his family should be made homeless. That's not a lack of moral centre; it shows a good deal of morality on their part. Rachel Corrie showed a similar morality; on that sad occasion, the Israelis did not.

I'm not sure what you mean by "generalizing about this article" - that there are loads of stupid writers like Mitchell Bard? That is the 'You hear constantly that Hamas is using "human shields" in Gaza' that the OP starts off with, I suppose.

[shira]

28. it's not irrelevant at all

So in 2008 Israelis acted reasonably?.....in fact, we'd have to say they already had a HISTORY of acting reasonably based on TRUST that Palestinians would have had to have in order to go up on rooftops and expect not to get blasted. And now in 2009, all of a sudden after 60 years, Israelis are no longer reasonable and are just bloodthirsty warmongers - even though IAF pilots in this war STILL hold their fire when they visually spot children in their crosshairs?

Come on.

Pilot: I aborted missions to avoid hitting civilians:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950849061&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Do you think that's some big lie and that IAF pilots do not have the go-ahead by the IDF to abort missions when civilians are definitely spotted? Here's another one for you:

Israel doing its best to help Gazans
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950869480&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

If you and others think the 2 articles above are propaganda lies, and that 94% of the Israeli public who supports this war is just duped into thinking this "propaganda" is the honest truth - then what's the point continuing to discuss issues with you? How about saying that although Israel tries, they should know that there is no such thing as a clean war and that civilians will get hurt due to human error? Therefore ALL war is bad, no matter how clean you wish to fight it?

Many here cannot do that, and are convinced the 2 articles above are complete BS and that Israelis are bloodthirsty warmongers intentionally and deliberately hellbent on targeting children, schools, and mosques - serving no military purpose whatsoever, as though Israel and its IDF is stupid and anxious to hand Hamas and Israel's detractors easy PR victories.

As for Hamas, you cannot be serious that Palestinians have the best interests in preventing Hamas leaders from being "homeless". Tell me this, do you agree that Hamas is trying REALLY hard to have as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible by Israel? That this is their strategy? Or do you disagree and still think Hamas has Palestinians' best interests at heart, being "freedom" fighters and all?

[muriel_volestrangler]

37. "Israelis are no longer reasonable" - yeah, that's a rough summary

A bit of a broad brush, but that 94% is being reckless with Palestinian lives. Intentionally targeting them? No, though UNRWA has just called for a war crimes investigation over a direct hit on a school. Basically, the Israeli military doesn't care if it kills civilians. The PR downside for them isn't bad enough, in their view, to stop them trying to kill anyone associated with Hamas.

"Israel doing its best to help Gazans" - yep, pure propaganda. If that headline were true, then the bombing and shelling would have stopped. For the other story, I hope it's true; note that he wasn't allowed to answer a question about whether he'd ever fired a missile and harmed a civilian (and, for that matter, it doesn't say that missions are always aborted when it's clear civilians will be injured or killed; just that he has withheld fire on occasions).

Yes, many of Israel's attacks don't serve any military purpose - they are to terrify the populace, to put pressure on them to expel Hamas in some way. Yes, the IDF is currently stupid, though not anxious to hand over PR victories - but it is handing them over, nonetheless.

If this man you're so wound up about was a Hamas leader (you've just asserted that, without any evidence), yes, it's possible that many Palestinians didn't want him and his family homeless. Why, would you enjoy seeing your neighbour's children homeless? No, I doubt you would - so why do you think they would?

No, I don't agree "that Hamas is trying REALLY hard to have as many Palestinian civilians killed as possible by Israel". I think they too are reckless with lives, Palestinian and Israeli. The 94% of Israelis and the Hamas members are as bad as each other. And the Palestinians who are just trying to stay alive are caught in the middle.

[shira]

40. You wrote

Israelis aren't intentionally targeting civilians, but then once killed they don't care about what they've done.

So all the aid convoys, Gazans in Israeli hospitals, leaflets and phone calls prior to airstrikes, aborted combat missions due to spotting civilians......this is all a poor attempt at ___________ ? Please explain. They care, but just not enough? Help me here.

As for Hamas, when they fire out of school windows or from an alleyway in between 2 densely populated apartment buildings, have boobytraps set up where dozens or hundreds of children are, this shows that although they "care" about Palestinian civilians, they're just dumb and are unintentionally putting kids in harm's way out of desperation? And Hamas is too dumb to know that to keep firing rockets even now ensures that the war continues and more kids die? Are you sure Hamas "cares"? Or maybe child-sacrifice is the gift that keeps on giving, and shows they care? Love is making a martyr out of a little child, right? That's care?

[muriel_volestrangler]

41. Yeah, they don't care enough

More specifically, some Israelis may care, but others don't give a toss how many Palestinians die. Phone calls prior to destroying people's homes aren't exactly humanitarian - at best, the people end up homeless, in an incredibly dangerous environment.

When Hamas fire rockets at Israel (likely to hit civilians, because I don't think they can aim them well enough to hit a military target rather than a civilian one), that's another war crime. But when Hamas shoots at the Israeli military that have crossed into the Gaza Strip to shoot more Palestinians, then it isn't - they're defending the city, and they're bound to be close to the civilians (who cannot flee anywhere) who live there. The Israelis shouldn't be going into buildings to find the boobytraps in the first place. I haven't heard of boobytraps killing any Palestinians.

Look, I never said anything about 'Hamas "cares"', so it's idiotic to ask me "are you sure"? I said Hamas was as bad as the 94% of Israelis who support the current killings. Hamas can be dumb. So can the Israelis. That's the basic problem - violent dumbfucks with the arms on each side, and innocents caught in the crossfire.

You know, talking about 'child-sacrifice' is an attempt by you to drag this whole thing down to a new low. For thousands of years, if someone wants to demonise their opponents, or make them appear sub-human, they accuse them of child sacrifice. Please, get out of the rhetorical gutter.

[shira]

42. you're attempting to equate the IDF with Hamas

and it's absurd. Hamas is as bad as the 94% of Israelis supporting the war?

You need to google boobytraps and Gaza.

Here's the rub. Would you expect Americans, Brits, or Israelis to act just like Hamas and launch rockets and anti-tank missiles either out of filled apartment buildings, or from school windows while hundreds are in the building? I'll answer for you - NO. It's a disgusting and appalling lack of regard for civilian life, not desperation. No one with any scruples does this. And please don't claim it's the culture, the desperation, that it's not wrong when "they" do it.

As for Israeli strategy, if they didn't warn people to leave terror strongholds, wouldn't that be far worse? They're damned if they warn them, damned if they don't. And again, it's not just that but also things like aborted military missions and admitting hundreds of Gazans into Israeli hospitals. An uncaring state at war with a group like Hamas doesn't do this stuff if they don't care.

Are you beginning to see how ridiculous your statement is about the 94% of Israelis being as bad as Hamas?

Am I as bad as Hamas because I also agree with the 94% of Israelis in support of this war? I hate civilian casualties too, but I realize that in cases like this (with 300 rockets launched Christmas week) that Israel, like any other country, had little alternative but to go to war to stop Hamas and their rockets. Do I wish, like the Meretz party of Israel, that they hit hard and then stopped and pulled back? Not if the rockets just continued to come. So does that really make me as bad as Hamas? I for one am proud of Israel's humanitarian efforts during this war and so are almost ALL other Jews and pro-Israel people I know.

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. If you're going to answer for me, then your contribution here is pointless

because you've got it wrong.

Any country defends its cities. When they've got nowhere to evacuate their citizens to, that means doing it next to the civilians. There's nothing wrong with it; the USA, Britain and Israel would do it.

Hey, here's a bright idea - Israel could stop the bombing! That way, Israel wouldn't be damned at all. But the IDF seems too dumb to think of this.

"Am I as bad as Hamas because I also agree with the 94% of Israelis in support of this war?"

Search your conscience. How much do you hate Hamas? What have you accused them of? Perhaps they're not the child sacrificers you used to think. Maybe they are just people trying to get a military advantage in this war, like you are.

[Chulanowa]

19. Crickets, really?

I seem to remember tearing that idiot article to bits and then urinating on it - which I have to say vastly improved the quality. Would you like me to do so again? I'd be more than happy to drown out the crickets in your head before their incessant chirping drives you to madness.

[shira]

29. you have a faulty memory then

maybe you can link to the post(s) in which you rip the article to shreds. Meanwhile, check out my last post right above (post number 28) and let's see your response to it.

[azurnoir]

22. Where ever those crockets are

the article was quite thoroughly discussed and dissected in this thread last Saturday

Video Reveals that a Lack of Moral Center Is Central to Hamas's War Strategy<.i>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=243726&mesg_id=243726

[shira]

30. it was discussed but the hostile Israel haters

could not admit that Palestinians view IDF and IAF as people with ethics and scruples who will not fire on civilians or children who can be seen. Kinda messes up the meme and narrative that Israel = evil.

[EFerrari]

24. Because it's tripe. And if you lack the facility to process all the information posted here

over the last two weeks, nothing I can say can penetrate that willful ignorance.

[shira]

32. see post 28

and then try to persuade me that 94% of the Israeli public who support the war are either retarded dupes who believe they and their army are moral, or that they're just a bunch of liars who don't want the rest of the world knowing how truly evil they and thier Elders of Zion really are.

[The Stranger]

21. The lie about "using human shields" is laughable.

How can you "use a human shield" when you ARE a human being bombed in your own home and neighborhood? No one believes that shit.

[scarletwoman]

31. Thank you. I'm so fucking sick of the Israel-apologist bullshit. (nt)

[shira]

33. oh, please tell me you think Hamas are just freedom fighters

who cannot help but be among civilians in densely populated Gaza....and that they are NOT deliberately putting Palestinian children in harm's way because it's NOT their goal to have Israel kill as many civilians and children as possible.

Please tell me you think only the best of Hamas and that they have only seek freedom and liberty for Palestinians.

[scarletwoman]

34. Sorry, I don't do strawmen. You'll have to pimp them out to somebody else.

[mmonk]

35. It's easy to have self absolved what ifs based on opinions

of what is not.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. It will be over by 12:00 est on Tuesday anyway...

Hopefully the world will prosecute Israel for its war crimes and barbarism.

[Vegasaurus]

46. Obama isn;t abandoning Israel

He has said it often enough, and has Hillary Clinton, who is pro-Israel, as SofS.