New Zealand pubs ban Israelis over Gaza operation

[Scurrilous]

Sign placed at entrance to pub in Kaikoura reads, 'Israelis not welcome before Gaza shelling stops'; two Israeli woman ordered to leave another pub because 'Israel kills innocent babies and women'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3657217,00.html

<snip>

"An Israeli citizen residing in Kaikoura, New Zealand has informed Ynet Friday that a local pub, the Strawberry Tree, placed a sign outside its door reading, "Israelis not welcome before shelling (in Gaza) stops."

Two other Israeli tourists encountered a similar restriction at a café located in another part of the country.

Kaikoura, located on the east coast of New Zealand's South Island, is a tourist hub known for its dolphin shows.

"The pub's owner has extreme views; in the past he worked as a photojournalist in Gaza, and inside the pub a sign reading 'Free Palestine" has been hanging for some time now," the Israeli citizen, who wished to remain nameless, told Ynet.

"It is alarming the (conflict in Gaza) has resonated to this region and in such a one-sided way."

The Israeli continued to say that "the owner expressed his aversion to the supposed racism on Israel's part – but he himself is acting in a racist manner when he screens his patrons according to their nationality."

[Behind the Aegis]

1. I am sure this acceptable to some here.

[Marrah_G]

2. I think it's silly

Unless those people are in some position to stop the war, what good does it do? It embarrasses the Israeli patrons, who may well be against the war also, and makes it certain they will never come into your establishment again.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. And yet, some still can't distinguish.

You are American, like me, you support the on-goings in Iraq? And, what if you do? Should I say you shouldn't be allowed a brew in my place because you disagree with me? Are you starting to see what anti-Israel bigotry is?

[Marrah_G]

17. I've always known what bigorty is.

My beef is not directly with the Israeli people, but rather with the Israeli leaders. I think they have damaged almost beyond repair any chance Israel had at peace in the region. It is my hope that this last round of massacres will wake up the citizens before it is too late and they will throw these people out and elect their own president Obama. It's a tough situation and it needs people with the true courage to solve it, rather then the bravado seen on both sides for far to long.

If they do not change course they will provoke a regional large scale war and my children and yours will be the ones sent over to defend them.

There needs to be a ceasefire AND a stop to the oppression of the Palestinian people. That is going to take trust on both sides, a leap of faith if you may. I wonder- are there leaders out there with the courage to take a chance? Are Obama and Hillary going to be the ones to finally get these people to sit down and talk like adults?

I am hopeful. I am always hopeful.

I don't want to see Israeli's die.

I don't want to see Palestinians die.

I want to see the oppression stopped, the land grab stopped.

My heart breaks for all of the innocent victims of these horrific leaders.

~hugs~ I know this is hard for you too BoA.

[bdamomma]

31. I want to see this end, killing women and children is inhumane.

I want to see a resolution to this whole thing, and I wish our country wasn't intermeshed with Israel. Our leaders do not what to hear a thing about this, calling Hamas a terrorist organization I wish the whole bush mentality would just disappear, this BS of Israel=good, Palestinians =bad.

[Shaktimaan]

32. No one really thinks that though.

Israel-good but Palestinians-bad... that's just hyperbole. I've never heard anyone say that. I think most people realize that the conflict is pretty complex and that easy answers are hard to come by.

One thing I disagree with you about though. You seem to criticize the labeling of Hamas as a terrorist organization. I don't see that as having anything to do with the Bush mentality at all. Hamas really is a terrorist organization. They really, truly are a horrible group that uses violence for leverage against their own people as well as Israel. They do quite a bit of good community work also, filling in the large gaps with much needed basic services. Sort of like what the mob used to do but on a bigger scale. Or like Hezbollah. Regardless, good deeds notwithstanding, they are still certainly terrorists.

[redqueen]

34. I'm curious to know your thoughts on this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x248062

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[cali]

13. His views on Palestine are humanitarian and he's obviously a racist

sorry, you don't get to hew to such a hypocrisy without being challenged. Banning Israelis from his pub is an act of racism. Just as banning Palestinians would be. There's really no room for argument on this one.

[redqueen]

18. Is it possible to be racist against a nationality?

[cali]

20. If a Pub in New Zealand or anywhere else

had a sign that said no Palestinians allowed, what would you think? Would you think it had nothing to do with racism?

[redqueen]

25. I wouldn't think it had anything to do with racism, no. (nt)

[cali]

27. Really? How interesting.

[Crunchy Frog]

4. That's just plain wrong.

The individuals in question are not responsible for their government's actions. If they were to ban all foreigners with badly behaved governments, they would likely destroy their business.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Good point!

[redqueen]

10. Kind of like the individuals in Palestine who are being punished far more harshly

for their government's actions.

Not saying I think it's right... just pointing out a possible rationale.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Not really. But an interesting excuse.

[Crunchy Frog]

16. I completely agree that the same arguments are used by some

to try and justify the the civilian slaughter in Gaza. Maybe this situation will help illustrate for some people why that argument is so wrong.

[Shaktimaan]

19. who is making that argument?

I have yet to hear it.

[druidity33]

7. is that even legal?

I know in this country you can't refuse to serve someone unless it is a "private club"...

this seems like it should be illegal if it isn't already.


:shrug:

[LeftishBrit]

8. And do they also exclude Australians, Brits and Americans for invading Iraq?

Punishing random travellers for the actions of their government is ridiculous.

[High Plains]

39. I think I recall some businesses in Europe doing that during the Iraq War.

Kind of silly, but my outrage meter is already overloaded with real atrocities.

[Captain Needa]

12. It's a gesture, and a moral stance

It's not different of what we were doing in Europe for eight years with american people. Americans learned that bullies were not welcomed abroad. We receive a full bunch of american students here in my hometown and every year in my local pub the manager used to tune in the Superbowl live on TV. The star-spangled banner was played on the loudspeakers and we all drank beer while watching the match. But when the BFEE and his cronies started shitting upon the most elementary international and human rights it was over. Nobody was banned from the pub, but talking to many of the american students, they realized that the rest of the world strongly disagrees with their governmet's policies. Do you really think that things would have been the same if the civilized world had remained silent while Bush, Cheney & Co. were trying to fuck the world up the way they did? I don't think so. Unfortunately, the pub's owner cannot go to the Security Council and shove the U.S. veto up Dubya's ass, neither he can't prevent U.S. from funding this "Operation Cast Lead", as we couldn't stop W from invading Iraq or building Gitmo, but he and we could protest, and that's what he did: protesting. Now come and tell me that the poor patrons felt embarrased. How do you think that Gaza people feel when Israel decides that they cannot go to work or to buy food to the market because they have closed the checkpoints? Or when students cannot go to college? Give me a fucking break!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

49. Wonder if NZ has the same kind of anti hate and discrimination laws that Canada does

If so, it could cost the pubs their licenses.

[cali]

14. This thread is already interesting

that anyone here is trying to justify this is just pathetic.

[Captain Needa]

15. Pathetic is some people's double standards (n/t)

[tekisui]

21. That is racism, at worst.

Nationalism and intolerance at best. There is no excuse for banning a group of people based on their nationality, race, gender, sexual identity or religion.

[Vegasaurus]

23. Happens all over the middle east

Try to visit a few countries with an Israeli passport.

People excuse it, of course.

But this action, in NZ, punishing Israelis for their government action, is wrong on every level.

[Dorian Gray]

48. Exactly!

[Douglas Carpenter]

22. as an American citizen, I have been welcomed in all kinds of establishments all over the world

including numerous places in the Middle East while the United States government was up to all kinds of no good. With only rarest of exceptions, people have been kindly and welcoming regardless what their political beliefs were or how angry they were with American policy.

I am grateful that the vast majority of people are able to set aside politics for the sake of personal courtesy and hospitality.

I don't think rejecting anyone on the basis of their government's behavior is ever acceptable.

[peacetalksforall]

24. The postings here are very sad - how can some posters take the atrocities

in Gaza and turn it around and play victim - and never condemn their own leaders for slaughter?

If left to the little people, most would find peace.
If left to the leaders, there will be no peace.

The story here is not what this pub owner did, it's that the leaders of countries are obsessed with the earth - taking the land of other countries and ruling them - with carnage.

The other story here is that the leaders of Israelis changed things - Israelis are no longer underdogs in need of support and aid.

Their country, meaning their leaders, have created new underdogs.

I will never drop my friends and acquaintenances whom I love. I will not boycott anyone's business that I use. I would never throw anyone out. EXCEPT the leaders and the military, if with weapons. The weapons of the military are the plans and orders of the leaders.

When and if peace ever comes, their will be normalcy between the innocents who have all been used.

Posters here who try to defend Israel against all the slaughter in progress are really defending their leaders.

Just as the loyalists of Cheney and Bush are defending their leaders.

I raise my voice against the slaughter that is directed, focused, and serious about killing people and ruining their lives - for what?

Philosophically, Israel has ruined things for themselves. A great tide of support has vanished.

Israel needs new leaders as much as we do to normalize relations.

If supporters of Israel can condemn 'those Palestinians', it is normal for people to refer to 'those Isrealis' for what has happened if they don't look to the leaders.

Very few people around the world truly understand what is going on, but we know this:

Israel has the might of the latest in technology, fighter planes, nuclear bombs and all the weapons needed from the U.S. by purchase or trade. Palestinians have stones, human bombs, missiles from (the U.S., Iran, Egypt, Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Germany???? no one knows for sure).

Just by this measure, this is mass slaughter.

The slaughter is driving the people of the world to rethink everything. But, if the parallel is not made to the U.S., the misunderstandings will perpetuate. The U.S. leaders seem to be getting away with slaughter in Iraq. Millions of U.S. people opposed it. Most likely some Americans were refused entry to some pubs, also. But, the U.S. floated under a cover of patriotism - a certain patriotism that was our infamous capital. Neither the U.S. or Israel have it now - BECAUSE of the leaders who called this. How many Israelis oppose what their leaders are doing. The distinction between leaders and followers is key to the future. Followers divide up between support and no support for slaughter.

[cali]

26. huh? It is possible to condemn the Israeli massacre in Gaza

and find the kind of thing described in the OP, despicable. And one doesn't need to compare the two. Obviously the actions of the Israeli gov't are on another and graver level. That in no way makes the bigotry of those banning Israelis from their businesses, OK.

Of course the story here is about what the Pub owner did. That is the story. Whatever his reasons for doing it, it's not something that should be excused- anymore than hostility to Muslims was excusable after 9/11.

[azurnoir]

28. what the pub owners are doing is at best stupid

not every Israeli supports their countries actions in Gaza and two wrongs do make a right and I am betting they did not ban Australians and American over Iraq.

[Howardx]

29. instant karma

get used to it israelis

[Name removed]

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[Behind the Aegis]

50. So some types of bigotry are OK?

[Bodhi BloodWave]

33. I'm not really gonna take a definite stand on this aside from saying this

If he owns the location and what he did breaks no laws, then he is free to do it even if its a silly thing to do. For all i care he could say that 'on Mondays anybody who's name start with an R and has a beard can't enter' and I'd accept it(the caveat being as said that it breaks no laws)

[Crunchy Frog]

36. Or no blacks allowed.

:shrug:

[High Plains]

38. The selective outrage on display here is laughable.

A couple of Israelis can't get drunk in their bar of choice in New Zealand because the owner is pissed off at their government? Boo fucking hoo. Meanwhile, Gaza is burning.

Calling that racism is silly. It is unfair to make every citizen of a state suffer for the actions of its leaders--and Israel would do well to remember that--but barring Israelis because of Gaza is just the same as barring Americans over Iraq. It's not because of their religious/ethnic status, but their nationality.

[cali]

43. how dense are you? This isn't about a couple of Israelis

not being able to get drunk. Duh. And one can recognize easily that Gaza is of another magnitude entirely, and a much, much, much greater injustice without accepting this kind of shit.

And of bigotry against someone because of their nationality is still, obviously, bigotry, genius.

[High Plains]

45. Not so dense as to appoint myself hall monitor.

I don't care what you call it, I don't have a problem with it. Now fuck off.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. It is not racism, but it is bigtory.

[LeftishBrit]

53. You're right that it's nationality not race

But would you think it fair if ordinary Americans *were* barred from places over Iraq?

[High Plains]

40. Overwhelming Israeli support of Gaza op: 94% of the public support

Well, ya makes yer choices and ya takes yer chances. No drinks for you.

[oberliner]

41. Did the pubs stop serving Americans when we invaded Afghanistan?

Same level of public support - thousands more civilian casualties.

[Captain Needa]

42. My local pub didn't stop serving

but the manager shown his strong disappointment. Public exhibition of UN flag was his first choice. Refusing to tune in the Superbowl his second one. AFAIK the NZ pub owner made it cristal clear (and I quote): "Israelis not welcome before shelling (in Gaza) stops." That's not a "Whites only" policy, but a PROTEST. And labeling his views as "extreme" because he experienced the situation in Gaza is something I could expect in Freeperland. Dissent is unpatriotic, treasonous or antisemitic, choose one!

[High Plains]

44. I think I recall some businesses in Europe doing that during the Iraq War.

[oberliner]

52. Businesses in Europe refused to serve Americans during the Iraq War?

One would think the RW media folks would have made a big deal about that.

I don't recall hearing anything about that.

[EFerrari]

46. This is what happens when people feel their government doesn't hear them.

Sad, all the way around.

[depakid]

47. As I mentioned since the outset- it's difficult to underestimate the loss of good will and support

that Israel and its citizens and businesses have lost due to their government's appalling behavior.

You'd think they'd learn from the disaster in Lebanon- but, like most zealots the probable consequences won't dawn on them until the damage is already done.

[oberliner]

54. Protesters target cafe in Gaza row

About 15 placard-waving protesters stood opposite the Mevlana Cafe in Esk St at lunchtime chanting "Kiwis don't discriminate, Kiwis don't give in to hate".

The words were aimed at cafe owners Mustafa and Joanne Tekinkaya, who ordered Israeli sisters Natalie Bennie and Tamara Shefa out of their cafe on Wednesday because of their nationality.

The Tekinkayas said they would not serve any Israelis in their cafe until Israel stopped killing innocent women and children on the Gaza Strip.

The protesters said they were taking the peaceful protest action against the cafe owners because they had subjected the Israeli sisters to hate and discrimination, which was unfair, heavy-handed and unacceptable in New Zealand.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4821228a11.html