Weighing Crimes and Ethics in the Fog of Urban Warfare

[Mosby]

JERUSALEM — Your unit, on the edges of the northern Gaza town of Jabaliya, has taken mortar fire from the crowded refugee camp nearby. You prepare to return fire, and perhaps you notice — or perhaps you don’t, even though it’s on your map — that there is a United Nations school just there, full of displaced Gazans. You know that international law allows you to protect your soldiers and return fire, but also demands that you ensure that there is no excessive harm to civilians. Do you remember all that in the chaos?

You pick GPS-guided mortars, which are supposed to be accurate and of a specific explosive force, and fire back. In the end, you kill some Hamas fighters but also, the United Nations says, more than 40 civilians, some of them children.

Have you committed a war crime?

Whatever the military and political results of Israel’s 21-day war against Hamas in Gaza, Israel is again facing serious accusations and anguished questioning over the legality of its military conduct. As in Israel’s 2006 war against Hezbollah in Lebanon, the popular perception abroad of how Israel fights, and hence of Israelis, may prove to be more lasting than any strategic gains or losses.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=middleeast

[pelsar]

1. dont confuse the issues...

this is the wrong forum for the realities that an soldier faces in the chaos and pressure of battle......the assumption here appears to be that he "sees all, knows all and makes every decision perfectly and if he doesnt its because he's some kind of war criminal...either by default by being there in the first place by "following orders" in the second or by recklessly killing in the third...

the article belongs more in a military forum where combat soldiers would have an intelligent discussion about the variables and realities of the situation.......

[shira]

7. agreed.....don't confuse the anti-Israel crowd with facts

This is one of the better articles on the conflict. Here's an excerpt:

"Since then, the Red Cross has noted improvements, even praising Israel for trying to avoid civilian casualties and provide humanitarian assistance in a briefing for Europeans in Tel Aviv, according to a European diplomat who attended the briefing.

Pierre Wettach, head of the organization in Israel and the Palestinian territories, said of the Israel Defense Forces in an interview: “I believe there is a true concern on the part of the I.D.F. to address these things, which are extremely complicated to organize.”

This guy was obviously coerced by AIPAC or other Elders of Zion. :eyes:

[The Magistrate]

2. An Interesting And Informative Article, Sir: Thank You For Sharing It

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. I have posted similar scenarios here and they were not well received

Unles you have some experience in the fog of war, its very hard to understand the pressure of battle.

[The Magistrate]

4. It Is Something People Need Education Concerning, Sir

As many could use some understanding of how the law actually applies in these situations.

[bemildred]

5. Gaza battles show `nasty' face of urban combat

Some interesting bits, you got to read through it ...

(AP) — Nearly a decade ago, the U.S. Marines staged mock urban battles designed to test future tactics for fighting in streets and alleys. The war games featured an array of advanced military hardware, including aerial drones with the laser-sharp cameras and micro-robots to scout for mines and potential ambushes.

But the exercises in California and at the Marines' Quantico, Va., base also reinforced the inevitable realities of urban conflict: Troops are drawn into a confusing and difficult arena where hit-and-run guerrillas often have the upper hand and civilians are caught in the crossfire.

"Urban areas can be extraordinary in their level of complexity," said a summary of the 2000-1 maneuvers published by the Rand Corp.

Now, Israel's push into teeming Gaza City has highlighted these risks on a scale and intensity not witnessed since late 2004, when U.S.-led forces launched a grinding, block-by-block showdown against Iraqi insurgents in Fallujah that lasted for nearly three months.

http://www.syracuse.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/international-46/1232219363157300.xml&storylist=topstories&thispage=1

[shira]

8. also a very good article

A very interesting excerpt:

"Israel also has been fine-tuning its tactics at an elaborate mock Arab city built on an army base in the Negev Desert. The city has hundreds of structures, including mosques, apartment buildings and a simulated refugee camp. Maj. Avital Leibovich said training drills involve soldiers posing as militants, civilians and even foreign journalists.

But it also includes traditional assaults such as shelling and missile strikes from Apache helicopters that risk civilian casualties."

[bemildred]

9. Well, it goes back to Fallujah, and Jenin, and before that.

The question is whether it "works" in the political sense. There is no real military opponent, in the conventional sense, so if it doesn't work politically, it doesn't work, because there really isn't anything military for it to "work" against. The US is being expelled from Iraq. This is not the first case like that. The British are not in Egypt anymore, or India, or Rhodesia, or South Africa, or ...

The US is not in Vietnam, or the Philippines, or Cuba.

The French are not in Algeria, or Vietnam.

All of them are not in China.

But it's not just a European thing. And it goes back much farther than that.

The British did hang on to the Falklands.

Once you accept the idea that you are NOT going to commit genocide, just wipe people out, you have to deal with them, they are not going to go away unless you make them go away, and if they are not made to go away, then they are going to make demands.

[The Magistrate]

10. An Excellent And Useful Piece, Sir: Thank You For Sharing It

[bemildred]

26. My pleasure.

Raises some interesting questions, that we touched on before, and provides some useful facts.

[The Magistrate]

31. And The Point You Make Above, Sir, Is The Crucial One: These Are Political Struggles

The military side is secondary, and military actions must be tuned to political necessities. This is a point a great many people, particuarly people of military background, and politicians wed to the school of 'toughness', seem to have difficulty grasping. Something that may 'work' militarily fails if it does not also work politically.

[bemildred]

6. Israel rejects Gaza 'war crimes' suggestion

JERUSALEM–UN officials have said war crimes may have been committed during Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip – a suggestion Israeli officials reject out of hand.

"These claims of war crimes are not supported by the slightest piece of evidence," Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, said when asked if there was any chance of a case being brought to the International Criminal Court.

U.N. officials expressed outrage after Israeli tank fire killed two boys in a UN school on Saturday. John Ging, the head of the U.N. Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza, said he was concerned about possible war crimes.

"These two little boys are as innocent, indisputably, as they are dead," Ging told Reuters as Israel's offensive entered its 4th week. "The question now being asked is: is this and the killing of all other innocent civilians in Gaza a war crime?"

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/572925#Comments

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. I do not expect the ICC to ever meet on this

[delad]

12. becuase Israel doesn't recognise the ICC? n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. That one of several reasons

[shira]

14. Yet another well thought out article for this thread

Save Gaza by Destroying the Heart of Terror: Natan Sharansky
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_sharansky&sid=axZLAbvx.p6E

[The Magistrate]

32. Not Nearly To The Same Quality, Ma'am

Mr. Sharanski is conflating very different episodes and circumstances, and when anyone starts speaking of other human beings as constituting 'a cancer', little warning prickles should go up the spine about the whole exercise....

[azurnoir]

15. delete

[shira]

16. Weighing Crimes and Ethics in the Fog of Urban Warfare

JERUSALEM — Your unit, on the edges of the northern Gaza town of Jabaliya, has taken mortar fire from the crowded refugee camp nearby. You prepare to return fire, and perhaps you notice — or perhaps you don’t, even though it’s on your map — that there is a United Nations school just there, full of displaced Gazans. You know that international law allows you to protect your soldiers and return fire, but also demands that you ensure that there is no excessive harm to civilians. Do you remember all that in the chaos?


You pick GPS-guided mortars, which are supposed to be accurate and of a specific explosive force, and fire back. In the end, you kill some Hamas fighters but also, the United Nations says, more than 40 civilians, some of them children.

Have you committed a war crime?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/17/world/middleeast/17israel.html?_r=1

[shira]

17. sorry about the duplicate OP

please delete

[razors edge]

18. War crimes is an oxy-moran.

War is a crime.

I want to steal my neighbor's house so I kill him and move in, I go to jail.

But if I get my friends in the government to cover for me, or better yet, do it for me, we call it war and give more tax money to the weapons manufactures.

I'm sure Aleister Crowley had deep thoughts as well. But he apparently got over them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

19. War has been with humans since the beginning, well before law. Its not inherently criminal

[razors edge]

20. Then neither is incest, per your rational.

I don't know about your family, but mine thinks it's illegal.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

21. Certain things are part of the human condition

War is one of them. We have an entire ecosystem based on scarcity. War is one way to address it.

[razors edge]

24. Yes, certain things are, like psychopaths

who only cooperate with like minded psychopaths, and subdue human progress. Parasites one and all.

I do feel sorry for them in a way, their week minds are ready to sacrifice all life to preserve their own idea of what it is to be human. When in fact they never really knew what it was to be human. Caught up in religious dogma, they wasted their numbered days killing the other, and never experienced life without fear.

Rather tragic, wouldn't you think?

[madrchsod]

22. people are dead

the children are traumatized beyond their years
those who are alive live in rumble
those who are injured their wounds will never heal
there is little food and water
schools, hospitals,and other public buildings destroyed

we weigh the ethics and the who is responsible for the crimes


but everyone misses the point----who is going to make this whole

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. No one...it will never be made whole...it can never be made whole

[excess_3]

33. define 'children'

less than 20 yo
less than 30
less than 50 but also living in your basement
something else

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

30. It was hardly a personal attack

but read it how ever you need. I see it has been deleted but I congratulated the poster for being legally right that IDF had not committed war crimes in Gaza and really I do not understand why it was deleted I called no one a Nazi or any other name for that matter I simply said she must be pleased.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.