The Palestinians say: 'This is a war of extermination'

[DogPoundPup]

Excerpt~

The Palestinians say: "This is a war of extermination." They describe bombs which break into 16 parts, each part splintering into 116 fragments, the white phosphorus which water cannot put out; which seems to die and then flares up again.

No one I spoke to has any doubt that the Israelis are committing war crimes. According to the medics here, to reports from doctors inside the Gaza Strip and to Palestinian eye-witnesses, more than 95% of the dead and injured are civilians. Many more will probably be found when the siege is lifted and the rubble is cleared. The doctors speak of a disproportionate number of head injuries - specifically of shrapnel lodged in the brain.

They also speak of the extensive burns of white phosphorus. These injuries are, as they put it, 'incompatible with life'. They are also receiving large numbers of amputees. This is because the damage done to the bone by explosive bullets is so extensive that the only way the doctors in Gaza can save lives is by amputating.

One of the nurses said to me that the nurses and paramedics were horrified by what they were seeing. "We deal with cases all the time," she said. "But what we're seeing these days we've never seen before or imagined."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israel-palestine

[The Magistrate]

1. Were Extermination The Intent, Ma'am, Casualties Would Be Several Orders Of Magnitude Greater

The weakness of resort to hyperbole is that, over time, people come to forget they are employing a rhetorical device for emotional effect, and come to imagine they are engaged in accurate description instead of deliberate exaggeration.

[cali]

4. I think it's more that many people are willing, anxious even,

to believe the absolute worst of the people they see as the enemy. And believe it they do. Quite often, unquestioningly.

[DogPoundPup]

9. Occupation has become the cancer eatting the lives of both people

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1259454859593416473&hl=en

[cali]

10. non-sequitur

and another of your cut and pastes.

[DogPoundPup]

12. lol, weak on excuses eh

[cali]

23. not at all. I simply find it difficult to have a discussion

with someone who can only toss off cliched one liners and cut and pastes. You stand as an example of what I fear is a tendency of mamy humans: You shit stir and demonize. You will believe anything at all as long as it fits into your narrow little world view. Critical thinking and logic are not skills you've worked on attaining.

[DogPoundPup]

26. sorry you" fear" "tendency of mamy humans"

perhaps you could call Olmert and Barak or maybe Livini also and discuss those fears.

[cali]

46. sigh.

did you get beyond 6th grade?

[DogPoundPup]

47. what's your point cali? You fear, I tell you what you can do about it

and then you insult me again, for like the 100th time. I'm just trying to help you with your problem.

[cali]

55. do you not comprehend that the common phrase

"I fear that...." does not denote personal fear. It's a commonly enough used phrase. Let's discuss what I wrote. I believe that people too often fall into the trap of believing virtually anything about those that they see as their enemies or the bad guys. For instance, it's clear that there is virtually nothing horrible that you would not believe about Israelis. And others will believe virtually anything horrendous about Palestinians. I don't believe that binary way of thought is productive or good for the human condition. In other words, sweetheart, I believe you are part of the problem- overwrought and lacking in logic, fueled more by hate than any other emotion.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DogPoundPup]

11. "believe the absolute worst"?

Naw, most see Israeli’s live a very good life style, second to none. A swimming pool in every back yard , plenty of food, jobs, stocks, cash, you name it.

So then they wonder, why should the Palestininas have live in poverty in Occupied open air prisons only allowed rationed food, fuel and medicine by their occupiers who constantly spy on them and suppress their way of life and any future for a better life.

[Vegasaurus]

17. Oh, but they could have had a better life dozens of time

but always chose war and terrorism (or their leaders did).

Very unfortunate.

Gaza could have been a shining Singapore on the Mediterranean, instead of a squalid dump, if militancy and aid were not the only economy.

[DogPoundPup]

21. sure, we hear you...IF ONLY THEY'D CHOSE AN ISRAELI PUPPET GOVT.

Israel's "Colonies" - Anna Baltzer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rCBJjCiLGc

[Duckhunter935]

18. What about the Palistinians in Israel?

Arab citizens of Israel<2> refers to Arabs or Arabic-speaking people who are citizens of Israel who are not Jewish.<3><4> Arab citizens of Israel are often called Arab Israelis or Israeli Arabs, a term with which some identify but the majority reject. (See notes on terminology below.)

Arab citizens comprise almost 20% of the population of Israel. The majority identify themselves as Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.<5> There is research that supports that the overwhelming majority of Arab citizens of Israel would choose to remain Israeli citizens rather than become citizens of a future Palestinian state.<6><7><8> Many Arab citizens hold a range of ties, including family ties, to Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. There has been relatively greater emphasis on Israeli identity among the Bedouin<9> and Druze, with all of the Druze drafted into compulsory military service<10><11> and a dwindling number of Bedouin volunteering.<12>

Special cases are Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied and administered by Israel since the Six-Day War of 1967. The residents of East Jerusalem became permanent residents of Israel shortly after the war. Although they hold Israeli ID cards, only a few of them applied for Israeli citizenship, to which they are entitled, and most of them keep close ties with the West Bank.<13> However, as permanent residents, they are entitled to vote for Jerusalem municipal elections, although a low percentage does so. The mostly Druze residents of the Golan Heights are considered permanent residents under the Golan Heights Law of 1981. Few of them have accepted full Israeli citizenship, and the vast majority consider themselves to be citizens of Syria.<14[br />
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

[DogPoundPup]

13. Yes, of course, we already know that 'they' have weapons that can

melt the skin completely off the bodies of innocent, unarmeed collateral damage victims and many, many more weapons that can set fire to a whole buildings filled with patients or of buildings with school children and other innocents only seeking to escape the 'great magnitude' weaponry.

[The Magistrate]

16. None Of Which Parade Of Horribles, Ma'am, Speaks To The Question At Hand

Namely the claim of exterminationist intent, which you remain unable to back with evidence. That something 'sounds good' and is 'lots of fun to say' does not make it an accurate statement of fact.

[DogPoundPup]

19. maybe you should take the place of someone in Gaza today and see

how you might feel if you were there. I'd like to have you report from Gaza...think that could happen so you could give us all a 'factual' account of how it really is?

I'm not in Gaza. I didn't write the article. I am 'posting' the article from someone in Gaza writing what the view of these Gazans under oppression are feeling.

[The Magistrate]

22. In a Mostly Political Conflict, Ma'am

Words are weapons, often of greater power than explosives and bullets. Most statements emerging from both sides of this are propaganda barrages 'fired for effect' on the world stage.

[DogPoundPup]

24. Wow, suddenly it's words causing all this horrid damage..."Bombs? I don't see no bombs!"

that's a good one! In your view, no reasonable human being should be allowed object to what Israel is doing in Gaza?

[The Magistrate]

27. Obviously, Ma'am, You Know Little Of Guerrilla Warfare

Nor is it, really, worth the time and energy it would take to supplement your education on the subject.

Israel has, in my view, made a poor judgement in conducting this offensive, and in pressing it on to this length. It does not seem to me Israel can actually gain its stated objectives of crippling Hamas and replacing it with Fatah in Gaza. Israel's actions are precisely what Hamas desired to provoke, and acting as your foe desires is seldom sound strategically. On these two counts, the thing is pointless, and folly.

This does not mean, however, that the whole farrago of nonesense about 'unparalleled crime' and similar rot is in the slightest degree sound, or anything other than seeking to help one side in the conflict, a conflict in which both sides are fault and in which both sides behave very poorly, and even self-destructively.

[GoesTo11]

44. Appreciate your logical analysis

When I agree with you and even when I don't. You raise the level of discourse here.

[DogPoundPup]

60. YES I am seeking to help ONE-SIDE...the SIDE OF INNOCENT UNARMED DESTITUTE PEOPLE

Now, Israel has footage of nearly all it's military actions as this post maintains...

"Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak has ordered the Israeli army to establish a task force comprising operational, intelligence, and legal experts, to assemble information, documentation, and footage of military operations during the offensive, which will assist in the defence of officers against legal actions expected to be filed by a number of international bodies."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=249175&mesg_id=249175

Imagine that will you? Israel has all the footage from this campaign, so IF there was any HEAVILY ARMED GUERRILLA WARFARE they had to take to task in such an ugly demonic way by way of dropping tons and tons of bombs and chemicals onto ALL these human beings, UN buildings, hospitals, schools, etc. etc., I do hope they do the right thing and show the footage to the rest of the world in their defense of such wicked actions! DON'T YOU?

[razors edge]

79. They have yet to show proof of weapons smuggled through

the tunnels. Where exactly would those weapons smuggled in the tunnels come from to begin with? Egypt isn't exactly looking to support a movement opposed to corruption. That leaves Israel itself and even I don't have enough tinfoil to make that hat fit.

Where are the tank busters? Where are the SAWs? Where are the grenade launchers? A nation with the world's fourth strongest army afraid some homemade rockets. How pitiful.

It does not seem likely any proof will be needed to deflect these charges of war crimes that may or may not ever materialize, and most certainly will never be followed through. The US will veto any call for proof of Israel's claims, that is the 3am call Hillary is prepared for.

[DogPoundPup]

83. Exactly...but 'they' say so,... so by god, it is without question the tr---uth

And kudos for mentioning the Hillary 3am call.

Nothings going to change in this dept.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

96. The Grads were not built in Gaza. so smuggling must have happened

And Qassams should not be sneered at. Cheap, easy to build out of "standard" materials. Excellent and ingenious design with a 10kg warhead. They are not "home made" as you assert.

Hamas leadership boasted of new weapons including Tandem AT missile. Not sure what has been used, the IDF has not stated tank losses at this point.

The military casualty imbalance is pretty clear.

[The Magistrate]

86. Are You Serious About Calling Israelis 'Demonic', Ma'am?

[DogPoundPup]

91. Are your reading skills floundering? And please do stop hedging the question.

You're developing a habit of doing that I've noticed in so many of your posts to me.

[The Magistrate]

93. So, Ma'am, You Stand By Your Description Of Israelis As Demonic, As Well As Wicked, Then?

"It is not just the fault of the axe, but the tree as well."

[DogPoundPup]

95. Israel has all the footage from this campaign,

so IF there was any HEAVILY ARMED GUERRILLA WARFARE they had to take to task in such an ugly demonic way by way of dropping tons and tons of bombs and chemicals onto ALL these human beings, UN buildings, hospitals, schools, etc. etc., I do hope they do the right thing and show the footage to the rest of the world in their defense of such wicked actions! DON'T YOU?

"they had to take to task in such an ugly demonic way by way of dropping tons and tons of bombs and chemicals onto ALL these human beings" = adverb(s) = action(s)

SO JUST STOP The Magistrate of twisting my words and accusing me of things I have not said, it's rude and very unbecoming of someone who prides himself on their vast knowledge of the world.



But please do respond to the fact Israel has video footage of their trail of destruction for legal reasons, but the rest of the world would like to see what forces they were up against to cause it.

[The Magistrate]

103. You have Heard, Ma'am, Have You Not, Of The First Rule Of Holes?

To call actions wicked and demonic is to call those who engage in them wicked demons: that is how the language works, and in employing it, you have made clear that that is how you view Israelis. If similar language being employed here regarding Arab Palestinians came to my notice, my reaction would be just the same. That sort of view of 'the other' is not helpful: it is understandable when indulged in by participants directly effected, but something else when affected by bystanders, whose experience is at best vicarious.

It is quite clear that you start from a presumption that there was no real fighting, that all Israeli military actions are undertaken simply for the purpose of killing people indiscrminately, and that any claim by Israeli forces they were engaging, or had reason to believe they were engaging, military targets, is at best pretext and most probably a deliberate lie. Your comments on combat strongly suggest you would be unable to discern what the video documentation, as well as the other documentation of intelligence and observation reports, and records of communication up and down the chain of command, actually signified, and what it was or was not evidence of. You would be particularly immune to the very concept of error or misjudgement, though that is a normal occurance in war, frequently iresulting in death or wounds to an army's own soldiers.

[DogPoundPup]

105. In your opinion...believe what you will. I have the same feeling about the invasion of Iraq That the

tactics used in that invasion were horrid, demonic and overkill...but being American, I know not all Americans are horrid, demonic people...so take you opinion and ......

[iconicgnom]

153. It was slaughter, sir. n/t

[subsuelo]

155. Indiscriminate, too. n/t

[iconicgnom]

156. I don't think facts matter to sophists.

Some sophist focuses on:
"Are You Serious About Calling Israelis 'Demonic', Ma'am?"

As in, "ooooo... I smell anti-semitism!"

It's like, let's pretend we aren't aware that Gaza is already approx. 75% refugees, fleeing from DEMONS who've driven them there, to be bombed indiscriminately because they dare to assert SOME right to exist.

But shit no, reality doesn't make a f&^kin' bit of difference to a sophist.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

99. Your agenda is clear, and noble in spirit

But your willingness to assume facts not in evidence, ignore facts that are clear, and dispute what is well known to be true is not helping your advocacy.

Some of us here are very knowledgeable about weapons, tactics, and warfare in general. I suggest you stick to what you know.

[DogPoundPup]

102. Perhaps so much knowledge drilled into your head about weapons, tactics

and warfare leaves little room for common sense.

example...Israelis lobbed phosphorous at a UN food storage facility.

Yet the Israelis try to convince us otherwise. That UN facility wasn't targeted. The IDF was simply returning fire:

Israel's prime minister, Ehud Olmert, said the military fired artillery shells at the UN compound after Hamas militants opened fire from the location, a version of events John Ging, director of Unwra in Gaza, rejected as "nonsense"

Mr Ging said Israeli shells first hit a courtyard filled with refugees, then struck garages and the UN's main warehouse, sending thousands of tons of food aid up in flames. Later, fuel supplies ignited, sending a thick plume of smoke into the air.

"It's a total disaster for us," said Mr Ging, adding that the UN had warned the Israeli its shelling put the compound in danger. ( http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Israeli-39phosphorous-shells39-incinerate-1000s.4883418.jp)

So "Who do you trust?" The word of Olmert versus the word of the UN officials on the ground.

Being the expert you say you are HardcoreProgressive...what the hell happened in your 'expert' opinion?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

106. Its right where it has always been...focused on what substantiated facts we have

The recent NYT times article is instructive about those kind of scenarios you bring up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=249555&mesg_id=250101


While the effects are clear (wounded and dead in UN buildings) how and why it happened is not. Again, the NYT article may help you understand why. Only the young and foolish see things in binary.

[DogPoundPup]

108. In the world you weapons experts are creating, I prefer to stay sane

thank you very much.

Paranoia is freaking all of your kind out to the nth degree.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

109. Facts are sane...its those who won't deal with reality that are scary

[DogPoundPup]

110. The facts are that 9-11 happened with box cutters and hijacked jet planes

Facts are that billions in Iraq are spent on sophisticated weapons that can't stop rebels from planting homemade bombs Iraq or Afghanistan.

Your reality is the most scary part of it all...continually ramping up the level of these sophisticated weapons just to do it, apparently in some vain attempt to accomplish something but not actually accomplishing a damned thing, meanwhile making the entire world more and more dangerous.

It's ridiculous!

[The Magistrate]

111. By Acknowledging, Ma'am, The Efficacy Of Improvised Weapons Here

You rather undercut a good deal of the line you have been pressing energetically for some time, namely that Hamas has no weaponry that deserves the name, or to taken seriously, and that therefore nothing Israel does militarily can be considered self defense or justifiable....

"There are no dangerous weapons, only dangerous men."

[shira]

114. dogpoundpup, you're a true believer....

just like any closed-minded fundamentalist whose knowledge is only faith-based, no amount of evidence would be satisfactory enough to invalidate your beliefs WRT Israel. You're not amenable to learning, only to indoctrination.

Sadly, there are many on the far-left who are similarly non-persuadable. Their politics and beliefs are based on emotion, not reason.

Many RW'ers who are Islamophobes function the exact same way.

[delad]

85. "Israel's actions are precisely what Hamas desired to provoke"

yes, i can see how reducing the amount of rockets fired into Israel from hundreds prior to the July ceasfire to a handful per month to, in October, 1 rocket, was designed to provoke Israel to bomb the shit out of Gaza.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. More uninformed ordnance hyperbole from you

Please learn more about things before you post about them.

[okiru109]

84. Political Extermination Would Be More Precise though State Sponsored Terrorism would be on the Mark

However, I am sure that from a Palestinian's perspective, who just had there whole family murdered, 'Extermination' would certainly fit their experience.

Everything is relative.

[The Magistrate]

87. Political Extermination, Sir, is Quite A Coinage: It Sounds Lovely, But On Examination Means Nothing

Rather like 'a family sports-car' or 'advance to the rear'....

Terrorism, of course, is a familiar and intriguing word, for it belongs to an of class of sounds that conveys no meaning whatever about the thing it claims to describe, but only information about the person using it: its only real, agreed meaning is 'violence for a political end the person speaking does not approve of, and hopes to have that disapproval shared by a listener without the listener's going to any trouble of thought about the matter."

[okiru109]

89. poor substitute perhaps for the colloquial "Regime Change"

and the means fits the "agreed meaning" TERRORISM, sir.

[The Magistrate]

92. There I No 'Agreed Meaning' For The Term 'Terrorism', Sir: That is The Point Of The Usage

There will only be agreement on what the term means when speaker and auditor share a priori disapproval of the political end towards which the violence so described is aimed. That is why the term is useless as a descriptor, though of value in placing the person who uses it....

[okiru109]

119. are you slurring your words?

be that as it may, there IS an agreed meaning to the WORD terrorism and it fits this aggression well and not only I have pointed this out.

sorry but you don't get to redefine words when they are inconvenient for you or your cause.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

104. Sir.

Weaker than hyperbole by far, Sir, is that some people wrongly imagine themselves capable of knowing "where to put hand or foot" and that they alone know 'good' from 'bad.' They think it is only their opinion that matters and use their position of power to advance their cause incognizant of the fact that, in this case, the I/P situation will ultimately resolve itself, it will not end well for all parties involved and their actions will have likely had the opposite effect of what they intended . . . Sir.
------------------------------------

Saiou Ga Uma
(Saiou's Horse)

There is a Chinese story of a farmer who used an old horse to till his fields. One day, the horse escaped into the hills and when the farmer's neighbors sympathized with the old man over his bad luck, the farmer replied, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?" A week later, the horse returned with a herd of horses from the hills and this time the neighbors congratulated the farmer on his good luck. His reply was, "Good luck? Bad luck? Who knows?"

Then, when the farmer's son was attempting to tame one of the wild horses, he fell off its back and broke his leg. Everyone thought this very bad luck. Not the farmer, whose only reaction was, "Bad luck? Good luck? Who knows?"

Some weeks later, the army marched into the village and conscripted every able-bodied youth they found there. When they saw the farmer's son with his broken leg, they let him off.

[The Magistrate]

107. That is An Excellent Fable, Sir, And New To Me: Thank You For Sharing it

[bemildred]

118. Allow me to second that opinion. nt

[pelsar]

120. an excellent fable for the middle east....

67 war...fantastic victory for israel...brings the occupation

73 war....a not so great victory for israel beings in the egyptian peace treaty

lebanon....the IDF routes the PLO and brings in Hizballa and Iran (and lebanons future is now "up for grabs")

Gazas pullout... a good first step toward ending the occupation and giving the gazans the first scent of freedom, gives them hamas, shari law and three weeks of bombing
______

trying to read the future in the middle east is nothing more than a waste of bandwidth

[shira]

121. excellent points

wasted on the hopelessly indoctrinated brain-dead, but excellent points nonetheless

[LARED]

2. The title seems somewhat ironic

Does not Hamas desire a war of extermination?

[Idealism]

5. Depending on who you talk to in the leadership, no.

There is a split between those wanting a two-state solution and those demanding an a bi-national Palestinian state. There are two wings in Hamas and not every member of the group are terrorists, or radical Muslims.

[The Magistrate]

6. The Men With The Guns, Sir, Are The Only Ones Whose Views Count For Much

"Don't watch the lips, watch the hands."

[Idealism]

7. There seem to be less of them around these days

Although, there are more who are willing to take their place each new dawn.

[The Magistrate]

8. Dulce Et Decorum Est Pro Patria Mori....

Such a stirring sentiment Sir.

[Duckhunter935]

20. The charter for Hamas

Still calls for the extermination of Israel. Changing that might be a good start

[JackRiddler]

97. Hamas offered a 20-year ceasefire. Israel broke the last one.

There are words and then there are deeds. Who is the occupier, who blockades all supply, who has done the killing, who has the power? If there are to be negotiations, it's up to Israel, not Hamas.

[oberliner]

49. What are the two wings in Hamas?

Which is the one that wants a two-state solution? Who are the leaders of that wing?

[Idealism]

52. It is hard to find information about the leaders of such wings

And the workings of Hamas aren't widely known. What is known by intelligence reports suggest there are two very real divisions of Hamas. The militant/political side and the civil local government side. The militant wing is made up of leaders, ranking officers within the group, and the Izz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades. The brigades consist of a few thousand lightly armed paramilitary. The Qassam brigades aren't the only armed entity within Gaza, there is also whats called the Executive force. Estimates have put their combined number (Brigades and Executive forces) from what I have read anywhere between 2,500 to 5,000. I would say it falls somewhere in the middle of these estimates.

The government side runs a socialist state, with Hamas paying for basic services and ensuring the law is followed as best as possible. Hamas came to power on an anti-corruption platform, and in the past have gone to great lengths to keep it that way. During the initial bombings of Gaza in December, there were reports of Hamas police going into the markets after the attacks to ensure no businesses were engaging in price gouging. Hamas was voted in, not because they promised death to Israel, but because they promised to deliver services- unlike Fatah who stashed the money away in Swiss bank accounts- and they actually did as the said they would. They took care of the elderly, opened schools and hospitals, did away with interest rates on any lending and were vehemently against the ways of Western banking, provided basic utilities to their people (sewage, water, rationed out food), and brought law back to a lawless region. Fatah was notorious for looking the other way when crime was being committed. They let the large clans run Gaza, getting away often with murder and theft. Hamas has gotten most of these clans under control, but the Dagmoush clan remains a problem. An extremist group with links to the Dagmoush clan, an al-Qaida-inspired group called Islamic Army (or Army of Islam), is behind the kidnapping of BBC correspondent Alan Johnston. The correspondent was later traded when Hamas kidnapped an Army of Islam spokesmen, then Hamas let Mr. Johnston go free.

There are members of both wings who have expressed willingness to negotiate with Israel. The founder of Hamas, Sheik Yassin, shortly before he was assassinated by Sharon's government, spoke of reaching a compromise with Israel, recognizing their right to rule in return for them allowing a Palestinian autonomous state.

[Vegasaurus]

53. Guess they haven;t had time to revise the charter then

since they want to be all cozy in the area with Jews and all.

[Idealism]

59. The charter has remain unchanged since the founding of Hamas

in 1987 by Sheik Yassin. It isn't exactly a constitution (but those of us who live in the US know, that document gets figuratively torn up every so often). Yassin has even said he would like to compromise with the Israeli's, accepting a Jewish state on the "Palestinian homeland," in return for an autonomous Palestine. For saying this, Ariel Sharon had him assassinated.

[oberliner]

66. That sounds like a Hamas press release

Sort of surprising to read such praise of Hamas on a site like this.

Here is what Human Rights Watch had to say about the rule of Hamas in Gaza:

The first matter of business was to consolidate control, and Hamas went about it with scant regard for the law. Hamas's armed wing, the 'Izz-al-Din al-Qassam Brigades, commanded by Ahmad Jabari, and its internal police, the Executive Force, commanded by Jamal al-Jarrah (aka Abu Obaidah), arrested hundreds of Fatah leaders, activists and supporters, especially those suspected of using or possessing weapons, and held many of them in unauthorized detention facilities. Torture and beatings were common, and one man is known to have died in custody during this time.<105> Hamas forces blocked demonstrations or public meetings by Fatah, and used violence to break up gatherings that did take place. They closed media outlets run by or sympathetic to Fatah.<106>

<End of Excerpt>

The report goes on the cite Hamas for "warrantless arrests, beatings and torture of detainees, and abuses of due process."

Regarding freedom of the press/expression, the Human Rights Watch report has this to say:

Over the past year, Hamas authorities have maintained pressure on the media, closing several radio stations and banning pro-Fatah newspapers. On August 25, 2007, Executive Force members attacked journalists covering a Fatah demonstration.<114> On September 7, 2007, the Executive Force beat Fatah supporters as they tried to hold a public prayer meeting, again assaulting at least seven journalists and detaining five others covering the event.<115> On December 14, 2007, members of the ISF arrested Omar al-Ghul from al-Hayat al-Jadida, a newspaper considered pro-Fatah. On January 15, 2008, they detained the paper's Gaza bureau chief, Munir Abu Rizq, for about 20 days.<116> That same month, authorities blocked the Gaza distribution of three newspapers published in the West Bank: Al-Quds, Al-Ayyam, and Al-Hayat.<117> A ban on the pro-Fatah Palestinian TV remained in effect.<118>

Hamas also imposed restrictions on freedom of assembly, including public prayers by Fatah supporters. On August 13, 2007, the Executive Force issued an order that banned any demonstration without permission from the Executive Force.<119> In the second half of 2007, the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights documented "several cases in which the Executive Force dispersed peaceful assemblies by force.

<End of Excerpt>

Many more such details can be found in their full report:

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/62090/section/6

As for Sheik Yassin - just two months before he was killed, he orchestrated a successful suicide attack killing four civilians.

[Idealism]

74. Is Eric Margolis a Hamas spokesman?

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3091
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3097
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3110

Is NPR a pro-Hamas rag?
Hamas Moves to Restore Order in Gaza
http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=11688841

But Hamas, which took control of the territory two weeks ago, has moved quickly to try to restore order. The militant Islamist group is cracking down on thieves, drug dealers, even celebratory gunfire. Hamas is also confronting powerful Gaza clans that Fatah was unable or unwilling to control.

***

Wearing a black Palestinian Authority beret and a close-cropped beard, Major Abu Hallad shows off bundles of drugs confiscated in recent raids of local dealers.

And I wonder why the suicide bomb that killed 10 Israeli's two months before Yassin's assassination?

Is Counterpuch bought-and-paid-for, too?
The Consequence of Killing Sheikh Yassin
Israel's Assassinations Will Only Fuel Suicide Bombings
http://www.counterpunch.org/niva03242004.html

Specifically, there is no evidence that Yassin ordered or even needed to sanction the most recent suicide bombing, the March 14 attack on the port of Ashdod that killed 10 Israelis. This attack was a joint operation undertaken by Hamas and the Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade operatives who were following their predictable policy of responding to the previous week's Israeli army assaults in Gaza and Nablus, which had resulted in the deaths of 10 Hamas members and 5 Brigades' members.

You have got to remember the utter lawlessness of Gaza under the corrupt and inept Fatah government. Hamas' paramilitary weren't exactly kind to detractors or Fatah-sympathizers, which account for much of that HRW report, but I would be curious to see the type of violations HRW noticed under the Western-backed Fatah.

Just because it isn't the Pro-Israel side of things does not mean you have to dismiss the claims out of hand. As Aristotle would say: It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

[oberliner]

76. Pretty sure "Counterpunch" is not considered an acceptable source here

Anyway, I don't dispute that some "order" was implemented by Hamas. This was accomplished in no small part by arresting and/or killing and/or threatening their political opponents.

I would again urge you to read the full Human Rights Watch report which details their many abuses in that regard.

Regarding Yassin, can you direct me to his statements where he "spoke of reaching a compromise with Israel, recognizing their right to rule in return for them allowing a Palestinian autonomous state"?

[JackRiddler]

100. ,

.

[oberliner]

113. Is that not correct?

OP's that cite Counterpunch as the source are usually deleted by the mods, aren't they?

Or was there something else in my post you disagreed with?

[Idealism]

138. Yassin was a moderate among Hamas leaders

He spoke often of long-term truce's between Hamas and Israel. He offered a 10-year truce, a 30-year truce, and rumors of a 50-year truce to Israel (although only a 30-year truce offer was communicated to the Israeli government). All of these statements were ignored by Israel.

Counterpunch may not be an 'acceptable source' for an OP, but they have some truth to behold, and this is a reply- not an OP. Also, I did not solely cite their work, and have done much fact-checking between a multitude of sources. It is important not to dismiss every word out of hand because you think it to not be good enough, especially when their claims have been repeated by many journalists before them.

Yes, there was a bloody civil war between Hamas and Fatah, but we must look at why that happened. The unity government collapsed because it was obvious that Abbas wanted to retain the status quo. He didn't mind that Israel refused to negotiate with any government that Hamas was a part of, he didn't care that Gazans were being kidnapped and killed in the street by the Army of Islam. All Abbas cared for was that his foreign bank accounts were being illegally padded by Palestinian sympathizers. Knowing that he was useless, and an obstacle to Hamas wanting to rule over Gaza, and that he wouldn't give up power willingly, it is easy to understand why the conflict between Fatah and Hamas started.

Here are some articles I found about Yassin's statements. They weren't all written down, as he was jailed extensively by Israel, but according to Mossad agents who interrogated him, he mentioned peace proposals several times (although some of these proposals were unacceptable to Israel. Ex: 1967 borders). Eric Margolis talks about Yassin and his statements in the http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3091">Real News Network interviews, which were excellent. I would recommend the 3 part interview to anyone wishing to understand Hamas more and their history, you might be surprised by some of what he has to say.

This article was written days after Yassin was assassinated, and it talks about how a Mossad agent recorded Yassin's peace proposals and delivered them to Israel, only to hear silence in return.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/50420/official_yassin_offered_israel_a_truce/
Official: Yassin Offered Israel a Truce
Posted on: Tuesday, 23 March 2004, 06:00 CST

http://www.indianexpress.com/oldstory.php?storyid=43641
Yassin offered Israela 30-year truce
Posted: Mar 25, 2004 at 0000 hrs IST

http://www.p10k.net/Updates/ud00005_yassin_calmness.htm
Sheikh Yassin was ready for “a new phase of calmness” - so they killed him
Friday March 26th, 2004

In an article dated Thursday 18th March, HamasOnline reported that, “Ahmed Yassin, founder and spiritual leader of the Islamic resistance movement Hamas, said Thursday that his movement could halt attacks against the Zionist entity if the Zionists withdraw from the Gaza Strip.”

Here is a decent article on the assassination and what it means by the http://www.cfr.org/publication/7833/middle_east.html">Council on Foreign Relations. They go through both sides of the argument and explain them both, never condemning one side as wrong or right.

[oberliner]

145. Regarding your links and some other links to look at

The "redorbit" link gives me a "page not found" message.

The "Indian Express" link cites an ex-Mossad agent claiming that Yassin "brought up the idea" of a 30 year cease fire. Nothing about recognizing Israel's right to rule.

The "P10K" link, I must point out is decidedly biased as evidenced by the headline "Sheikh Yassin was ready for “a new phase of calmness” - so they killed him". That aside, I do not see where there is a any claim of a statement from Yassin where he says that he would recognize Israel's right to rule, as you asserted.

Here are some links to some of Yassin's statements:

From ArabicNews.com (2000):

Sheikh Yassin calls for armed struggle to end Israeli occupation

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/001113/2000111302.html

September 2003:

"our people will not raise the white banner and the Israeli entity will be removed."

http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Daily/Day/030908/2003090804.html

[Idealism]

147. Try again

Is actually the most information, I don't know why it won't load, try again.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/50420/official_yassin_offered_israel_a_truce/

What do you think a two-state solution is? It is recognizing both states rule. When Yassin did cite specifics in his proposals, he spoke of borders based upon 1967 boundaries, although Israel is unwilling to compromise on that. Because they are unwilling to compromise on that, they dismissed the idea, just like you dismissed that article- just because of the headline. It truly shows how you wish to believe something so much that you refuse to read anything contrary to the fact.

He may or may not have been assassinated due to offering Israel a peace, or talking about it. I am not here to speculate on why Ariel Sharon wanted him killed. He was definitely killed, and it definitely sparked a string of suicide bombers unlike Israel had seen before. This led to the total blockading of Gaza, ultimately. It is funny how elected officials in the Knesset, and even Sharon's own Minister of the Interior spoke out against assassinating Yasin, because it would end any type of peaceful process in the near future with Hamas, and because how much bloodshed will ensue from the retaliation.

[oberliner]

149. The link is still not working

Perhaps it's something on my end - I'd be curious to know if others are able to view the link.

I do not see where Yassin has stated that he is in favor of a two-state solution.

Some of the sources you've mentioned indicate that he would be willing to accept a temporary arrangement of that nature for some period of time, but other statements indicate that the eventual goal of liberating all of historic Palestine would not be abandoned.

I do not dismiss anything because of the headline - I just note that the headline is indicative of the bias of the source.

In any case, my primary point is that you paint a picture of Hamas that I feel presents them in a rosier light than they deserve by whitewashing over the issues outlined in that report from Human Rights Watch as well as various other unsavory aspects of their regime.

[Idealism]

150. I am trying to get people to understand there are two sides to each coin

Hamas, people are indoctrinated to believe, are all bad. All are terrorist or suicide bombers. This is patently false, which is why Hamas won elections in the first place. They didn't win elections by promising "Death to Israel" and getting Gazans killed in a war. They won by their socialist promises for change. Unfortunately, when you vote for one side you vote for the other, too, and I am not trying to defend their civil war with Fatah. I understand perfectly well why it happened, as I think you could understand as well. I would be very interested in any reports HRW has from Fatah's government, when clans literally ran wild and crime went unpunished. Even the Western media recognizes how corrupt Fatah was now, even though they enjoyed significant economic support from those same governments in the past.

If you do a search on Sheik Yassin, you will find from time to time how he spoke about an enduring peace, or a prolonged 'calmness.' Again, he was imprisoned for many years, so such things were told to agents of foreign governments (which is why the Mossad agent coming forward after Yassin's death was very odd)

Here is some international reaction

World leaders warn Yassin killing may have buried Mideast peace
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-03/23/content_317282.htm


This is a well-written article about by a former leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, talking about how the assassination will affect Israeli's and Palestinians:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/03/24/edwilliams_ed3_.php
Yassin, Gaza and peace : Sharon throws more oil on the flames

Here is an intriguing look at the top 10 reasons why Yassin was killed:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5947.htm
Ten Reasons Why Sharon Killed Sheikh Yassin:

Ninth : A more serious reason to kill Yassin is Sharon's determination to pre-empt any offer of a long-term truce, or Hudna, by Hamas's spiritual leader. Israel has demonized Sheikh Yassin as the 'godfather' of terrorism, the 'head of the snake', and so forth, whereas he was in fact the most moderate of the Hamas leaders, who repeatedly offered Israel a long-term truce - for ten years or even fifty years -- on condition that it withdrew from the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem. Since 1993, Hamas has proposed a ceasefire with Israel no fewer than eleven times.

Yassin's most recent offer of a truce was on 1 December 2003, while his boldest proposal was in May 1999 when he told the Egyptian daily Al-Ahram: 'We have to be realistic. We are talking about a homeland that was stolen a long time ago in 1948 and again in 1967. My generation today is telling the Israelis, "Let's solve this problem now, on the basis of the 1967 borders. Let's end this conflict by declaring a temporary ceasefire. Let's leave the bigger issue for future generations to decide."

Sharon is well aware that Sheikh Yassin was probably the only man in Gaza with the authority to propose a truce and make it stick. By killing him, he has ruled out any such possibility.

Tenth : Sharon is equally concerned to pre-empt any possibility of a renewed peace offer from the Arab summit in Tunis on 29-30 March. The summit was widely expected to repeat and clarify the offer of peace and 'normal relations' with Israel made at the Beirut summit of March 2002, on condition that Israel withdrew to its 1967 borders and allowed the emergence of a Palestinian state.

But any such program is anathema to Sharon for whom a return to the 1967 borders in unthinkable. Sharon wants land not peace. He has no interest in negotiations with the Arabs. Instead, he is engaged in one of Israel's traditional arm-twisting haggles with the U.S. government.

The essence of it is that he wants to trade an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza for an acceptance by Washington of his land-grab on the West bank by means of his infamous wall - what he euphemistically describes as establishing 'long-term interim borders'.

Any peace offer from Arab leaders would therefore be most unwelcome. By killing Yassin, Sharon has created conditions in which none will now be forthcoming.

[oberliner]

151. Are you seeing both sides of the coin?

It seems that you are presenting only one side of the coin yourself and are guilty of the same sort of one-sided thinking you profess to be trying to correct.

Firstly, you use sources that have a clear and demonstrated bias. On the one hand, you attack those who cite sites like "CAMERA" because they have an agenda, yet, in this thread you site sources which also clearly have an agenda (including one (P10K) that specifically laid out its agenda on its home page).

You post an article that purports to present the "Top 10 Reasons" why Yassin was killed and it begins with the assertion that "killing is what Sharon does best". What follows is not going to be a dispassionate and even-handed source of information and analysis.

Secondly, your claim that Hamas did so well in the legislative elections because of their "socialist promise for change" is as dubious as a claim that every member of Hamas is a suicide bomber. Hamas polled highest among voters who were opposed to the peace process with Israel. They also were most successful among voters who considered themselves to be very religious. Certainly the corruption and poor election strategy of Fatah played a role in why Hamas was able to win so many seats, however, their electoral success was due to a variety of factors - opposition to the peace process with Israel among them.

To your main point - Hamas is a terrorist organization. Both the United States and the European Union have identified them as such. They are responsible for many suicide bombing attacks against Israeli civilians. They have in the past and continue today to advocate violent resistance against Israel.

There is no debating the fact that Hamas has targeted and deliberately killed many Israeli civilians. There is no debating the fact that a central founding principal of Hamas is a call to replace what is now Israel with an Islamic Palestinian state.

They also have a horrible human rights record as evidenced by the HRW report and others. (Human Rights Watch has a similar report about Fatah where you can read about their own similar issues in this regard).

That said, Hamas has, at times, offered various medium-term truces to Israel wherein they would promise not to conduct suicide bombings if Israel withdrew to the pre-1967 borders. They also have and had an assortment of leaders who appeared to hold varying degrees of stridency regarding their positions. Hamas is notoriously inconsistent regarding the messages they put out in the media and it is sometimes difficult to know who exactly is speaking for them (if they do, in fact, have a unified position). They also have built schools, run charities, and attempted to govern Gaza in the face of extraordinarily challenging circumstances, to say the least.

However, any fair assessment of Hamas ought to cast a critical eye on their lack of respect for human rights, heavy-handed (and sometimes brutal) suppression of their political opponents, and wholehearted embrace of attacks against civilians.

The point is not whether or not they are "all bad" or "all terrorists" - the point is that they embody an ideology and philosophy that ought to be anathema to the values of liberals and progressives worldwide.

[Idealism]

152. I would like to see those polls you speak of

The last poll I saw from Gaza more people wanted a two-state solution than not, and Hamas didn't win the elections by winning 38% of the vote. I chastise shira for using CAMERA as a sight to 'debunk' a claim, because we all know that isn't going to be an even-handed analysis (but she is notorious for using dubious sources). I wasn't trying to debunk some article, I was showing you information that is extremely hard to find. You must admit that articles not calling Hamas the Palestinian Al-Qaeda are few and far between. To find an objective view is almost impossible (although Eric Margolis gave a pretty good one). The fact is Israel could have peace with Palestinians, and all of the Arab nations with normalized relations and all, if they would only go back to the 1967 borders. Many have said this, but they refuse to make that concession, and it is understandable. It won't be popular politically, when most Israeli's apparently don't want peace, judging by Likud and Nuttyahoo's polling numbers (because we all know Likud won't sign ANY peace proposal nor concede anything).

Your religion argument is a red herring. Fatah was secular, Hamas is not. Muslims on the whole are very religious, of course Hamas will 'poll higher' among them.

Any progressive should cast a critical eye to the abuses of Israel's military, presently and in the past. When the IDF murders people by running them over with a bulldozer, they can't claim moral high ground (Rachel Corrie was a militant?). When an IDF captain (Captain "R") can chase down a 13 year old girl and shoot her several times in cold blood, gets investigated but found not guilty of any wrongdoing, then paid for his time and released- should any progressive not think that highly offensive?

When Israel bulldozes thousands of Palestinians homes in the West Bank to make way for Jewish-only settlements and build Jewish-only highways, should progressives applaud? When Israel constructs an Apartheid Wall in order to annex the most useful land out of the West Bank and to trap the Palestinians inside, should liberals rejoice? The ICJ has made statements saying how the wall violates international law, but let us progressives look the other way when Israel violates international law (yet again). Should we stand up and cheer when the Israeli's collectively punish 1.5 million Gazans for the reprehensible acts of a few, starving them of food, denying them water and electricity?

If that is what 'true' progressives should applaud, then I belong to the wrong party.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

101. Poltical and military

If there are substantive difference between them, its not public knowledge

[LARED]

88. Ok so half of Hamas may not insist upon the destruction of Israel

Still, that seemingly non negotiable position seems to ensure death to one side or the other eventually.

[peacetalksforall]

15. Yeah, Hamas desires a war of extermination with stones, body bombs, missiles that shoot mostly

into the dessert. It amazes me that defenders of Israel never gets the ratio right - nuclear bombs, the latest in technology of people control and extermination from lasers to phosphorous, F-16's, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Israel - a country of freedoms.
Gaza - an open air, open sky prison with inhuman blockades from Israel. A ghetto.

Some ratios of extermination.

Israel got decades of support and are leaning on the continuation of it. Times have changed with this and Lebanon, the walls, the checkpoints AND NO talk of lasting peace and no recognition of it being desired. Times have changed.

A standoff is one thing. This is not a standoff. This is a slaughter.

[pelsar]

31. whats your point?

because israel is stronger it should let it citizens play russian roulette with incoming missiles and do nothing about it?.....perhaps the jihadnikim should have taken advantage of the time when israel left gaza and NOT shoot those kassams almost daily and instead concentrated on their own society using what they had...shooting kassams and mortars from day 1 of israel leaving was really a stupid idea....did they really expect israel to do nothing?

[Idealism]

32. It isn't like Israel was exactly willing to negotiate with Hamas

They said so, soon as Hamas won the parliamental elections. They have assassinated over a dozen top Hamas leaders, starting in 1999, that continues to this day.

[DogPoundPup]

34. MIDEAST: Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December

Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

[pelsar]

36. you should read the conditions.....

they werent willing to continue the "calming period" they wanted conditions that werent acceptable to israel...btw they rejected israels conditions for cease fire...did you know that?

they just duped the politically naive

[EFerrari]

48. Why should they accept Israel's conditions?

Israel has failed. After all that killing and maiming and destruction, the only success Israel has had is in peeling away support for itself.

Oh -- but Likud's poll numbers are up. That was a success!

[pelsar]

54. they dont have to...

just as israel doesnt have to accept theirs.....thats what negotiation is all about.

[EFerrari]

63. There is no negotiation happening here. Talking to yourself is not negotiation.

[hack89]

58. To end the killing perhaps?

are you saying they are completely blameless in this war?

[pelsar]

61. there is no 'blamless"

i put the greater blame on hamas for insisting on shooting rockets over the border.....and of course the more ironic part is, that one of their conditions to not shooting is having the borders opened...when in fact all they have to do is stop shooting and the borders are opened (as they were in the beginning despite their shooting and what has been shown to happen over the last years shoot they get closed, dont shoot, they're open)

[EFerrari]

64. What Hamas does is about as important to the Israeli right wingnuts as

what Saddam did was important to Bush. You must be joking.

[hack89]

78. But we will never know that if Hamas doesn't stop shooting

will we?

[EFerrari]

80. Red herring. They could stand on thier heads in fishnet and it wouldn't matter.

[hack89]

82. I guess if you say so

who am I to question your wisdom.

:eyes:

[oberliner]

81. Actually Likud's poll numbers are down

December 10, before the invasion, they were polling at 35 seats.

The most recent poll, January 8, has them polling at 29 seats.

Kadima is up 6 seats in that time period, and Labor is up 2.

[Idealism]

141. A more recent poll puts Likud squarely in the lead for Prime Minister

Kadima (Livni) is running 6% behind.

[oberliner]

144. Likud has been in the lead for months - the lead is down since the Gaza invasion

In November, Likud was polling at 37 seats with Kadima polling at 25 seats, and Labor at only 7 seats.

The most recent poll has Likud polling at 28 seats with Kadima at 26 and Labor at 16.

Other recent polls show Likud with either 28 or 29 seats, Kadima with anywhere from 21-26 seats and Labor with anywhere from 15-17 seats.

In any case, Likud's poll numbers have gone down since the invasion, though they are still leading.

[Idealism]

148. Your post seemed to say they were 'down'

meaning not leading anymore, I was trying to bring clarity to that statement. In any case, you are correct, they have slid but they still remain in the lead in seats.

[azurnoir]

127. Actually Likuds numbers are down however it should be noted

that Ehud Barack the Minister of Defense and who could be credited with the current operation is Labor Party and Olmert and Livni who are also to a degree responsible for the current situation are Kadima both of those parties number are up since this conflict began, which is why it has been said that current Israeli politics are a factor

[pelsar]

35. actually they talk...

how do you think gazans cross over to israel to work (not the masses like before, but some still do) ..those going to the hospitals, going to the westbank, diplomats coming and going etc coordination of supplies entering.....

outside of that, the whole concept of leaving gaza was so that, they could for the first time have some real sovereignty (limited as it may) and start with the nation building....or as many believed they would use it instead to launch missiles on israeli cities.

they chose the stupider option....all they had to do was not try to kill israelis.....they didnt even try....and that has nothing to do with hamas, their elections or anything else...they just kept on launching missiles....

israel made the first move, a dramatic one at that and they couldnt/wouldnt follow it up

[Idealism]

45. Only those specialized enough to warrant their entry in Israel were allowed to

Doctors, etc. were among the only professions allowed to leave Gaza to work in Israeli hospitals. If you let 10 people out of a 1.4 million person cage, is that 'nation building?' Not really. You treat people like children, they will lash out like children. You take away their food and electricity, then they will of course turn to violent desperation.

Did you not realize that Israel has targeted Palestinian leaders for assassination for decades? Do you not realize that in a few short years we will be hearing much about Arab Israeli's and land-transfer programs to ensure as close to a Jewish-only state that is possible?

When did the first suicide bomb go off in Israel from Gaza? In 1994. Why? Israel assassinated the Islamic Jihad's local leader Hani Abed in Gaza in November of that year. It sets off a deadly wave that left many Israeli's dead. After a few months, the attacks gradually lessened. Fast forward not even a year later: Islamic Jihad's founder Fathi Shikaki is assassinated by Israeli operatives in Malta on October 28, 1995. The cycle of violence begins, once more.

When Sheik Yassin (the founder and spiritual leader of Hamas, at the time) was speaking of a possible agreement on the part of Hamas with Sharon which recognized Israel's right to exist and rule parts of what Yassin called the "Palestinian homeland," Sharon had him later assassinated (in 2004). What followed was a new rash of suicide bombers that led to the ultimate embargo against Gaza, the blockade.

The first rocket to hit an Israeli city was in 2002, although they started rocket fire in October of 2001, according to the Israeli Defense Ministry. In February, 2001, Ariel Sharon broadened the Israeli governments policy of assassination of Palestinian leaders upon his election victory.

The first high level assassination of a senior Hamas political leader came with the missile strike on Sheikh Jamal Mansour on July 31 2001, which put an end to a nearly two-month cease-fire on attacks on Israeli civilians observed by Hamas. This was not without criticism by Israeli's. Several members of the Knesset expressed displeasure over the policy, and the through the history of voting for high level assassinations, several members of Sharon's cabinet voted against them (although those members were out-voted).

The suicide bombings were reactionary to the assassinations through the years of militant and political leaders of the Palestinians, every high level killing leading to more and more needless Israeli deaths.

[pelsar]

51. that was so simplistic...

what you wrote has got to be one of the most simplistic cause and reaction versions that i have ever seen.....and every single time you have israel "starting it" and the Palestinians simply reacting....how many events did you leave out to get to your conclusion?

and i always love the "hamas cease fires' that so many love to put forth...usually they leave out a couple of incidents and pretend they never really happened or even better is when islamic jihad attacks, israel retaliates and then the claim goes out that israel broke the ceasefire......and of course there is hamas using proxies...so the gullible can believe their claim of 'keeping the cease fire" while others do their shooting.......

do i really have to find the list of attacks that brought on the assassinations-Sheikh Jamal Mansour on July 31 2001,

or perhaps you can list them ...the ones you skipped over while doing your research. .2 seconds of google:Binyamina train station bombing, July 16, 2001, June 1, 2001 - Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv, 21 killed
______

if your really trying to make israel into the bad guy stick with the settlers on the westbank....gaza is a lost cause for the 'pro Palestinians"....they got everything they needed for the first steps toward self rule and they blew it.....all by themselves

here i'll give you something to struggle with: Erez industrial area, 6000 Palestinians working at israeli wages...until too many mortars and bombs by their own jihadnikim and it was closed down....i'll let you imagination figure out how that was israels fault. (the area on gazas northern border is in israel)

[Idealism]

56. Sorry if you don't approve of the facts, sir

I don't know where that number comes from, but there were http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f4/MonthlyMortarHits.svg">8 mortars launched from Gaza into Israel in July (a particularly high number during the cease-fire), and none were the work of Hamas. Even the Israeli spokesman Mark Regev admits to that.

Here is what Wikipedia, Global Security, and Israeli Ministry of Defense agree on:

These attacks commenced in October 2001, though the first rocket to actually hit an Israeli city was on 5 March 2002, and the first Israeli fatality was 28 June 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket_attacks

On Wikipedia, "Qassam rocket attacks" also include mortar attacks.


According to http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm">Global Security, Qassam rockets were not even manufactured until September, 2001 (after Sheikh Jamal Mansour's assassination on July, 2001). Here is where they say this:

Qassam

Production of the shorter range Qassam rocket began in September 2001, following the outbreak of the Al-Aqsa Intifada. The rockets have been manufactured and deployed primarily from the Gaza Strip although Israeli Defense Forces have seized rockets in the West Bank.

So, here is a short summary:

-That article you found is the work of either an ill-informed journalist, or the work of a propagandist.

-Qassam rockets weren't even made until after the assassination of Sheikh Jamal Mansour. They went into production in September of 2001. Sheikh Mansour was assassinated July of 2001.

-There were rockets and mortars from Gaza into Israel during the June 19th cease-fire. There were 12 rockets and 14 mortars fired between July to October, none of which were the work of Hamas.

-After the rocket and mortar fire from militant groups inside Gaza, Hamas arrested a total of 10 Al-Aqsa Brigade members for their roles, all in separate attacks. Last known, they were still jailed, although they probably are now fighting along side the Qassam brigades.



You may believe whatever you want to believe, I understand your nationalistic my-country-can-do-no-wrong mentality. The facts are, this brutal policy of assassination that Israel employs makes you less safe as an Israeli, and has killed your hundreds of your countrymen. It is as myopic, in this case, as cause and effect. The facts are there for you to see.

[pelsar]

57. in your version of the hamas cease fire suicide bombers dont count....?

* June 1, 2001 - Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv, 21 killed - mostly new-immigrant teenagers from the former Soviet Union (hamas)

Binyamina train station bombing, July 16,2001

are these facts you disagree with too? the work of a propagandist ?

[Idealism]

65. So I guess you aren't disputing the facts about assassination

About how assassinations have precluded rocket and suicide bomber attacks. How does it feel to know that your government engages in a policy that makes you less safe? I share your pain, believe me. Much Arab anger directed at the United States comes from our unwavering economic and militaristic support of Israel. I know people who died on September 11, 2001. I know what it is like to want to get revenge, but revenge (just like in Afghanistan) won't move us towards peace, but only closer to the next retaliation. There are always alternatives to violence, and violence begets more of the same. If violence hasn't worked in the past decades, why will it work now?

Doing some digging on your claim that Hamas was behind that bombing turns up negative. According to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, they don't list Hamas as being behind that. According to Johnston's terrorism archive, no organization was given credit for that attack. Although that article claims that most of the deaths were former USSR transplant, which is false, according to Johnston's. One was Ukranian, the rest were Israeli. Wikipedia does not list that attack at all, for some reason, even though their sources list the attack, again, not as Hamas originated.

[oberliner]

75. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack and named Hotari as the suicide bomber

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130858&page=1

[pelsar]

94. pretending the facts dont exist alway helps....

here you have two definitive examples of your "hamas cease fire" in the classic sense: they shoot, claim they have a cease fire and there are those that actually believe them even after they take credit for a bombing ...see post 75 for their credit. so do you believe hamas is lying?

i now understand your one of the `conspiracists types" that always manage to find alternative "facts" and ignore the mainstream ones or even when claimed etc....as in the dolphinarium attack, claimed by hamas, the disco btw was known for attracting those from the former USSR and its area...dont know what your trying to prove other than using limited resources that are wrong to prove your point.

sorry to dissapoint you but i dont have any anger or pain toward the arabs, nor do i wish for any revenge, in fact I feel sorry for them, that they have such pitiful leaders, that so many people use them, take advantage of them and instead of teaching them to take advantage of what they've got, to do just the opposite, look at what they dont have and blame some body else...thats a losing philosophy as history has shown. (your a good example of this, giving them excuses for their failures)


the dolphaniin attack was infamous in israel for the number of deaths in one attack..if your sources dont list it, then your using the wrong ones.....

now lets stay on topic (why would i deny the helicopter missile strikes?)....and so whats your alternative reason for israel closing down the erez industrial area....but please do be more imaginative then some simplistic: israel decided to screw the Palestinians by taking away their better jobs......something with a little more imagination

and remind me again why they've been shooting kassams and not concentrating on their own society.....and do you think they figured out the connection between kassams flying and the closures of the border?

[Idealism]

134. Here are your two claims debunked

Binyamina train station bombing- July 16, 2001- Binyamina- 2 killed- Palestinian Islamic Jihad

Straight from Wikipedia, which two resources are the MFA and Johnston's terrorism archives: Not the work of Hamas.

Here is what JPost has to say about who was responsible for the Dolphinarium bombing:
http://info.jpost.com/C001/Supplements/Disco/

The Islamic Jihad originally claimed responsibility for the suicide bombing, which was greeted with jubilation in Ramallah and parts of Gaza, where people danced in the streets and fired guns in the air.

Another group, calling itself Hizbullah-Palestine, also said it was behind the attack, but both claims were later retracted. Islamic Jihad leaders in the territories said they did not know who carried out the bombing, but both they and Hamas leaders praised what they described as a legitimate act.

Hamas is not innocent in this of course, but they did observe this cease-fire until Israel decided to assassinate another Palestinian leader (because they wanted to show they could, any time they want- even during a cease-fire). Similar to how Hamas observed this last cease-fire, until Israel killed 6 Palestinians in a raid into Gaza on November 4, 2008. If there is a contest over who is the bigger aggressor, it is for sure Israel. Again, I am sorry that you can't see this, and are willing to use dubious claims against my facts to come to whatever conclusion you want to reach.

[JackRiddler]

98. No, Israel should stop starving the Gazans. And stop violating ceasefires.

That's the point.

[pelsar]

122. history is your friend....and it tells a lot...

you would discover the difference between a tahdiya and a cease fire......you would learn that dec 18 hamas declared the tahdiya over and they were not going to renew it. You would learn that the borders were open far more than when they are closed and that when the kassams fly, attempts to kill and terrorize israelis, they get closed usually. And when they dont fly, the borders are open....what is referred to as 'cause and affect".

you would also learn that the day israel left gaza the kassams started flying (30) and for the most part never stopped...so the plans for the port, open borders, erez industrial area all got shelved since it didnt make much sense to help a society that everyday was terrorizing you own....

most humans react positive when people are not trying to kill them, israeli are included in this species

history..were only talking a few years here...nothing that is very ancient.

[JackRiddler]

124. November 4, not December 18.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen
Rory McCarthy in Jerusalem

guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 5 November 2008 14.32 GMT

A man sifts throught rubble after Israel's overnight operation Photograph: Marco Longari/AFP

A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen* in a raid into the territory.

Hamas responded by firing a wave of rockets into southern Israel, although no one was injured. The violence represented the most serious break in a ceasefire agreed in mid-June, yet both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.

Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon.

SNIP

---

* As usual Arabs don't get to be civilians or soldiers -- the only allowable categories seem to be gunmen/militants/terrorists or "women and children."

[pelsar]

126. you should read your own link....

both sides suggested they wanted to return to atmosphere of calm.....and the "atmosphere of calm" returned somewhat.....

The israeli raid and the kassams that went before and after werent enough for hamas nor israel to disrupt the calm...it could be that it was too much for you, but then your not involved are you.... and so it remained until hamas decided they didnt want it anymore.

what part of hamas declaring that the calm period is now over is confusing you? (i mean other than the fact that you cant blame israel for it, which is why your going back over a month previous to an incident that hamas decided that it was not going to disturb "the calm".)

[JackRiddler]

128. I am involved.

Billions of dollars of US taxpayer money to Israel (plus a couple of billion every year to Egypt as part of the Camp David accord) every year for 50 years = US CITIZENS ARE ALL INVOLVED.

This is an American war. Not very hard to understand.

I'd like to be less involved. That would be progress. I don't need to hear official condemnations of the occupation, or of the wildly disproportionate Israeli collective "punishments" waged in the main on helpless, trapped civilians.

An immediate and permanent cessation of US aid to either party in this conflict would be a big step forward.

[pelsar]

129. you arent involved in the decisions being made between hamas and israel...

and both decided that all of the shooting during the calm period was within the framework of the agreement..which is why it wasnt broken until hamas decided to.

i'm afraid that is just the historical record...the only way around it is, to decide (as you did) that hamas cant make their own decisions and needs someone like you to explain to them that israel did break their agreement.....and what do we call that?...(westerners telling the "brown" people what is good for them....)

[Name removed]

130. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pelsar]

133. just the facts....nothing less....but i do enjoy the colonialist attitude of yours

Israel broke the truce on Nov. 4th by killing six Gazans.

hamas doesnt think so, israel doesnt think so....in fact both continued the "calm" until dec 18 ...so who claims the truce has been broken?.....big white ancestor of the colonialist" explains to the two groups involved that a violation of the truce has occurred.....never mind that the "colonial ancestor' hasnt even read the truce agreement...but "colonial ancestor knows whats good for the "locals' because......"he knows better"

i though that period was over?...or has the "progressive" taken over where the white missionarys left off?

i always like these accusations......they always sound so absurd:
Israel planned the Gaza offensive for months beforehand...well duh! of course they did, it would be kinda dumb not to.


and the slow starving of gaza?.....did you notice the relationship between kassams and closures?..i guess not, so i'll explain how it works:

kassams fly = border closures

no kassams or attacks on the borders = borders open
______

conclusion: hamas doesnt try to kill israelis, they get open borders....seems to me a very reasonable position

[Name removed]

136. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

3. True!

And the criminal troika in Jerusalem of Livni and the Ehud twins should be at The Hague facing justice.

[Vegasaurus]

14. Were extermination the goal

there would be no Palesitnians left in Gaza, and there wouldn't have been for decades.

Let's not make stupid comments.

[mikita]

25. well with your line of reasoning,

one could say that the use of the word "holocaust" isn't appropriate, as many survived that too.....

I take it some lives are more important than others?

[The Magistrate]

28. Simple Arithmetic, Sir, is The Basis Of Wisdom In Such Matters

Roughly half of all the Jews in the world perished in the Hitlerite crimes; among the population of European Jews, the proportion of living to dead at the end of the matter was on the order of one to four. Since the mass killings went on over a period of approximately four years, to reach a comparable level, casualties among Arab Palestinians resident in the Near East would have to run approximately one fifth per year, or something on the order of eight hundred thousands to a million per year. If the calculation were confined to Gaza, the required rate would be on the order of three hundred thousands per year.

[Vegasaurus]

37. And in fact,

there have been 40,000 Palestinians killed in the past 60 years (compared to the 20,000 Israelis).

This is hardly a massacre, regretable as any loss of life is.

Of course, the population has actually increased 30% in ten years as well.

And let;s not forget the 11 million Muslims, murdered by other Muslims.

Now, those were real genocides or slaughters.

[EFerrari]

29. I'd be interested to see the fertility rate before the siege and now after

this invasion.

Hunger, for one thing, inhibits ovulation.

[DogPoundPup]

33. yes, and the chemical weapons used, another

[Better Believe It]

38. "the Israelis are committing war crimes"

The Palestinians say: 'This is a war of extermination'
Ahdaf Soueif in Egypt
The Guardian
17 January 2009

The Palestinians say: "This is a war of extermination." They describe bombs which break into 16 parts, each part splintering into 116 fragments, the white phosphorus which water cannot put out; which seems to die and then flares up again.

No one I spoke to has any doubt that the Israelis are committing war crimes. According to the medics here, to reports from doctors inside the Gaza Strip and to Palestinian eye-witnesses, more than 95% of the dead and injured are civilians. Many more will probably be found when the siege is lifted and the rubble is cleared. The doctors speak of a disproportionate number of head injuries - specifically of shrapnel lodged in the brain.

They also speak of the extensive burns of white phosphorus. These injuries are, as they put it, 'incompatible with life'. They are also receiving large numbers of amputees. This is because the damage done to the bone by explosive bullets is so extensive that the only way the doctors in Gaza can save lives is by amputating.

In the silence that followed someone put a mobile in my hand.

"Look!" On a rubble-strewn street lay the body of a roasted and charred child. Two bones were sticking out where her thighs had been. "The dogs ate her legs," he explains. For a moment I put a hand over my eyes. The phone goes round the table, each man gravely contemplating the burned child on the screen. Then someone asks: "What will it take to make the Israelis stop?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israel-palestine

[The Straight Story]

39. No time to worry about them, still trying to stop our own government from their war crimes

:)

[JackRiddler]

132. This is our government as the primary sponsor of the Israelis...

to the tune of many billions every year for the last 60 years. That's your taxes paying for this.

So if it's not to be "our" war crimes stop paying for it!

[malaise]

40. Didn't their cabinet say today that

Israel is meeting her goals.

[TahitiNut]

41. The "score" is over 1,200 Palestinians killed and 13 Israelis killed.

Nearly 100-to-1 ... and over 600 of the 1,200 are women and children. :puke:

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. OP is not in line with IP guidelines

Should have title from original article. Its also a duplicate

[EFerrari]

43. The thread was moved here from somewhere else. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

77. Its now combined with the one it duplicated

[Sanctified]

50. I think "extermination" doesn't fit since Israel has to have the worst Military in the World...

they spent a crap load of money and dropped a lot of bombs only to kill 1,000 people. These guys need better training or something because I am sure if you gave that kind of firepower to a class of 6th graders they could kill more than a 1,000 people trapped in a little area.

[balantz]

67. The Palestinians say: 'This is a war of extermination'

The Palestinians say: 'This is a war of extermination'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/gaza-israel-palestine


Everyone says something new is going on here; something different. The residents of Egyptian Rafah are used to the sounds of rockets and shells exploding on the other side of their border, but they've never heard the sounds they've been hearing over the last 20 days. Twenty-five miles further into Egypt the general hospital at el-Arish is used to receiving the Palestinian wounded. The staff have never seen injuries like these before. The hospital forecourt is swarming with ambulances, paramedics, press. The wounded are raced into casualty.

The Palestinians are mostly silent; each man working out where he finds himself and what he's going to do. Fearing for their wounded and fearing for those they've left behind, they are silent but unfailingly courteous.

They try to answer questions. They must be exhausted? "The people of Gaza," they say (not "we"; they're too proud for that), "the people of Gaza just wish for an hour's sleep." The case you're accompanying? "I'm here with my nephew. He's 19. Shrapnel in his head. He was sitting with his friends. He's a student. Architecture. The helicopter dropped a bomb and seven of the group were killed and six were injured. They found a boy's hand on a 3rd floor balcony."

- clip -

The Palestinians say: "This is a war of extermination." They describe bombs which break into 16 parts, each part splintering into 116 fragments, the white phosphorus which water cannot put out; which seems to die and then flares up again.

No one I spoke to has any doubt that the Israelis are committing war crimes. According to the medics here, to reports from doctors inside the Gaza Strip and to Palestinian eye-witnesses, more than 95% of the dead and injured are civilians. Many more will probably be found when the siege is lifted and the rubble is cleared. The doctors speak of a disproportionate number of head injuries - specifically of shrapnel lodged in the brain.

They also speak of the extensive burns of white phosphorus. These injuries are, as they put it, 'incompatible with life'. They are also receiving large numbers of amputees. This is because the damage done to the bone by explosive bullets is so extensive that the only way the doctors in Gaza can save lives is by amputating.

- clip -

In the silence that followed someone put a mobile in my hand.

"Look!" On a rubble-strewn street lay the body of a roasted and charred child. Two bones were sticking out where her thighs had been. "The dogs ate her legs," he explains. For a moment I put a hand over my eyes. The phone goes round the table, each man gravely contemplating the burned child on the screen. Then someone asks: "What will it take to make the Israelis stop?"

[yurbud]

68. if it were anyone else but Israel doing it, there would be no question what this is

[Zynx]

117. Yeah. No one would be calling it a war of extermination.

I agree with that. By no definition is it any such thing. If Israel really didn't give a damn, they have MLRS launchers that they could line up wheel to wheel and just lay waste to Gaza in about a day. Virtually everyone in Gaza would die. Each launch would probably kill about as many people as have died so far.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MasonJar]

70. The quote earlier from a British politician says it all. They (Britain)

set aside land for a country for another party (Israel) not from their own land (Britain) but from the land of another country (Palestine.) As he says, they are, therefore, culpable for what has happened.

[slipslidingaway]

73. Shhhh, we are not supposed to know. n/t

[tnlefty]

71. Sickening.

I have no words for this situation nor for the fury that I feel because of the resolutions passed by the senate and the house putting their stamp of approval on this.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

90. Remember how we felt when 3,000 of 250 million were killed?

[oberliner]

112. Probably similar to how Israelis felt when 200 of 7 million were killed in 2002

[ProgressiveMuslim]

115. Then they should be able to imagine how it feels to have 1,200 of 1.5 million massacred.

Bernard Avishai explains why they don't seem to be able to, though.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=249539&mesg_id=249539

[oberliner]

116. Lack of empathy all around

Some folks on both sides seem unable to see the other as human beings sometimes.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

123. Shall Palestinians be required to have empathy for their oppressors?

[oberliner]

125. Shall Israelis be required to have empathy for people who wish them dead?

Neither are and many don't. That is what I am lamenting.

Would that more Palestinians and Israelis could see one another as human beings.

Of course not all Palestinians wish Israelis dead and not all Israelis are oppressors of Palestinians.

I find it encouraging when Israelis and Palestinians work together for peace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

131. Your posts make me the most hopeless of all.

Can I ask how you envision peace coming about?

Here is how I see it.

Israel must FORCED into a 2-state solution... either because the Palestinians are able to make the status quo so painful -- physically or morally -- for Israel, that is has no choice but to quit.

Or the international community isolates Israel (through sanctions, boycotts and divestment, including cultural and academic boycotts, a la South Africa) such that it quits the occupation.

Or the US forces its hand and says, "enough."

In the absence of those forces, I simply don't see any bit of change.

How do you see peace possibly unfolding?

[oberliner]

135. How do my posts make you hopeless?

I do not understand that comment. My posts are all about people coming together and embracing a peaceful resolution to the conflict.

On the Palestinian side, I envision the Palestinian people, tired of war, tired of fighting, sick of this never-ending conflict, rejecting those with an ideology of continued violence and embracing those who support compromise, peace, and reconciliation.

On the Israeli side, I envision the Israeli people, tried of war, tired of fighting, sick of this never-ending conflict, rejecting those with an ideology of continued violence and embracing those who support compromise, peace, and reconciliation.

I see the United States, under the leadership President Obama being truly engaged in the process, and sitting down with both sides, and helping them to work out a negotiated settlement that leads to two states living side by side at peace with one another.

That is my vision. It is one of hope. The election of Obama helps to feed that hope. I pray that Israeli and Palestinian elections reflect the same kind of desire for peaceful coexistence.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

137. You means supporting Abbas?

Look at the past. Support for the faux peace process was disastrous for palestine.

What do you see happening that will actually move the gov't of Israel to end the occupation? No kumbaya stuff... I'm talkinga bout the real deal, not your vision of hope. Which party do you see those Israelis you mention electing? Labor? Meretz? EVERY ruling party in Israel as worked to entrench the occupation.

You write of fluff. I'm talking about reality.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

139. Your inability to distinguish

between the reality of oppressor and the oppressed is what makes me hopeless. If you can't do it, can any Zionist?

Why in God's name should the people of Palestine have empathy for those who have kept them in chains for 40+ years? Who have stolen their land, jailed and murderd their kids? They should have empathy because they fought back? Are you kidding me?

Do you expect this of victims everywhere, or is this a special requirement for Palestinians?

[oberliner]

140. Alright you win

I won't argue with you.

I hope that your approach helps bring peace.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

142. Boycotts, sanctions and divestment. End the faux peace process.

Get serious about national liberation and institution building.

That's the only way out of this.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

143. How can you call others words fluff when you speak

of the PA as quislings etc. Everyone is calling first for unity among the Palestinians, which Hamas only wants on its terms. That is not going to happen.

[Vegasaurus]

146. That is the puzzling part

Here there is all this talk about boycotts and divestment of Israel, as if there if a Palestinian state of unity on the other side that was ready to make peace.

Hamas doesn't want peace with Israel, and won't form a unity government with the "quislings" of Fatah.

Seems like the Palestinians are keeping themselves in a state of perpetual misery.

They have to get their own house in order first, before there will be anything remotely like a state for them.

[azurnoir]

154. And just what are Hamases terms?

Do you even know or is it just a good sound byte?