Hamas confirms PA affiliates in Gaza executed for collaboration

[oberliner]

Bethlehem – Ma’an – Former Palestinian Authority figures “distributed candy celebrating the Gaza offensive,” Hamas claimed on Wednesday.

According to Hamas leader in exile Mousa Abu Marzouq, PA sympathizers “sent kisses to Israeli warplanes” and “guided these planes to their targets.”

For the first time since allegations were made weeks before, Abu Marzouq confirmed that Hamas did execute several collaborators during Israel’s assault on the Gaza Strip.

He threatened to bring others to justice, as well, particularly some he said “guided the Israelis” to the location of Hamas-affiliated de facto Interior Minister Sa’id Siyam, who was killed in an airstrike.

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=35151

[GoesTo11]

1. Giving candy and blowing kisses to Israeli warplanes was definitely a stupid move

Maybe next time they'll be more discrete.

Blowing kisses, yah right.

[shira]

2. don't worry, enough people will believe ANYTHING hamas claims

even blowing kisses and giving out candy while celebrating the Gaza war, in front of Hamas operatives.

Yes, very believable.

:eyes:

[iconicgnom]

3. The PA knows who pays the piper.

It's worth noting just how *much* Olmert and co., Rice, Bush, Obama, and Clinton, like and (claim to) admire Abbas. Given the ongoing state of seige, and advancing settlements etc., Abbas is clearly a traitor to his people. There's certainly a "that explains all" connection.

[The Magistrate]

4. Things Are Not Really So Clear On That Score, Sir....

"If we lose, we're the rebel army. If we win, we're the loyal army!"

[iconicgnom]

5. Not to you, of course. Since you're "neutral"

[The Magistrate]

6. Every Faction, Sir, Is Certain It Represents The 'True Path' For 'The People'

"In religion, truth is the opinion that survived."

[iconicgnom]

7. So what?

Is that supposed to be a deep profundity?
It's hard to read past the affectations of your net persona.

[The Magistrate]

8. So, Sir, To Call One Faction Traitors Is Necessarily To Align With Another Faction

"It is wrong to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious."

[iconicgnom]

10. Hardly! The Vichy regime was traitorous, not because I "call it" so, but because it was so.

And your nonsense IS long past tedious.

[The Magistrate]

11. Marshall Petain Did Not Think Himself A Traitor, Sir

Quite the contrary. And a very large proportion of the French populace agreed at the time. French soldiers fought with considerable tenacity against the English in Syria and Madagascar.

It is in this case fortunate events provided the verdict they did, but that does not alter the principle involved.

If the Fatah faction should emerge on top, then Hamas are the traitors.

[DogPoundPup]

12. After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election

the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

[The Magistrate]

14. Hardly a Revelation, Sir

"When you appeal to the court of force, the one thing you cannot do is lose."

[iconicgnom]

16. Don't expect him to make a connection.

[iconicgnom]

15. absolute bullshit.

"Petain's actions during World War II resulted in a conviction and death sentence for treason, which was commuted to life imprisonment by Charles de Gaulle. In contemporary France, he is generally considered a traitor, and pétainisme is a derogatory term for certain reactionary policies. Due to his treason conviction, French historians refer to him by his name only – Philippe Pétain – without the title."

[The Magistrate]

17. He Was Tried And Convicted Of Treason, Sir: He Lost, And That is The Penalty

But he never considered himself anything but a patriotic Frenchman, and his regime had very wide support among the French populace in its early period.

Marshall Petain is a genuinely tragic figure, in the true classical meaning of the word: a man brought low from great height through the defects of his virtues. Among these was an unusually sturdy constitution; had he had the grace to die in his early eighties, he would rank near Napoleon in the French pantheon. He saved France twice in the Great War, once at Verdun and again a year later in the Mutiny following the collapse of Neville's offensive at Chemin des Dames. He is the one high general in that war who could be called a humane man, about the only one who managed to communicate to the men in the trenches that he was genuinely concerned for their lives and well-being. He not only understood better than just about all his contemporaries what changes had been wrought in war by recent invention, but stood by his understanding in defiance of de Grandmaison's 'bayonet' nonsense before the war, to the point of having essentially blasted his career to ruin for it. His rise from a regimental commander with only a few months left to serve before retiring into obscurity, to the apex of the French Army in three years, was the result of extraordinary merit and force of character. In the context of the French Army in that day he was something of a progressive; anti-clerical, and opposed to reactionary political interventions by the Army.

He did become a decided rightist in the period following the Great War, in part because of the difficulty left agitation presented in the episode of the Mutiny, and he took on decidedly anti-English views as well, again in large measure in consequence of difficulties in relations between the Allies during and in the immediate wake of the war. During the rise of Hitler, Petain's view of him was a common one in conservative circles; he was a staunch Anti-Bolshevik, and likely to do England down, both of which were to the good. When France was at the point of complete defeat in the spring of 1940, Petain was the one figure in France with sufficient prestige to lead and get the best terms available from the conqueror. He felt, quite sincerely, he was doing the best thing for the French people, and he viewed his actions as protecting the French from things that could have been much worse. There is some truth to that, particularly in the early years of his regime. It was not enough, in the event, and he was certainly outplayed in his dotage, which he had certainly entered, by both the Germans and some figures, such as Lavalle, in his government. A friend who broke with him early in the Vichy period put it very well, telling him "You care too much for the French to care enough for France."

But it is not a simple thing, Sir, to be dismissed with a curt extract from Wikipedia. Genuine tragedy never is.

[iconicgnom]

18. I'm sure you're weeping over Petain's tragedy.

:puke:

[The Magistrate]

19. The First World War, Sir, Has Long Been Of Great Interest To Me

It is the pivot on which all modern history turns, and its repercussions are felt still all around us. Within it, certain personalities stand out, and Marshall Petain is one of them. The thing could well have taken a very different course had he not been present past its opening slaughter. Complex matters deserve deep understanding, and cannot be encompassed by simple sloganeering.

[iconicgnom]

20. Ah yes, and if only Germany had won WW2,

you believe your preferred reading for the word 'traitor' would be in vogue. Because, in your eyes, reality is like that. Might makes right, and indeed, might makes reality itself. Very 1984ish, in a decadent way.

[The Magistrate]

22. Had Germany Won, Sir, Petain's Vichy Regime Would Be a Watchword For Patriotism

Every school-book in France would say so....

[iconicgnom]

23. You are one sick customer.

[The Magistrate]

24. Do You Expect To Get An Argument Out Of Me With a Line Like That, Sir?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3HaRFBSq9k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h-wVe9a6rQ

[iconicgnom]

27. You already defeated your argument, "sir" -- regarding Abbas.

Tho' I'm sure you're so tangled up in your lightweight sophistry that you'll never figure out how.

[The Magistrate]

28. If You say So, Sir....

[PerfectSage]

29. Fatah's fatal handicap: Bush & Israel supported them over Hamas Sir

That's an instant kiss of death/loss of legitimacy in the muslim world after Bush invaded Iraq and the use of torture.

Funny how the wheel of history turns.

Bismarck used the victory in the Franco Prussian war to unite the independent germanic kingdoms into the Prussian empire.
But the siege of Paris left France with a burning desire for revenge.
After Bismarck was gone. France allied with Russia then England which wouldn't have happened under Bismarck.
So France's diplomatic skill led to WW1, where Prussia, Austro Hungry and Russia holding trying to hold onto aristocracy were the big loser's and America the big winner because most of France and Britain's gold reserves wound up in New York.

New York became the financial heart of the world... ...and America a global hegemon.

Then France was the instigator of the Euro and Bush pissed away five trillion in 8 years doubling the US government debt(maybe 5 trill more if the fed is on the hook for another 5 trill for fannie mae and freddie mac)

So France is the penultimate shit disturber: The Euro will contribute to the demise of America as a superpower aided a great deal by the stupidity of the RW psychopathic cluster fucks who made it possible.

Wealth of America = $57 trill < Fed debt + future payments for SS and pensions for government employees.

You know what the best thing about bear markets for America is Sir?
The volatility is so freakin' unreal, if you can market time SPY put options,they are 150% sweet.

Thank you Marshal Petain. Good Riddance to America as a superpower. Sir

Huh? comparing Petain to Napoleon is like comparing Bush to Temujin. Try Joan of Arc.

[The Magistrate]

30. Condensing History Can Be Tricky, Sir

The annexation of Alsace-Lorraine was the item which ensured French revanchism. Whether Moltke the Elder was Herr Bismark's adversary or alibi in this can be debated. What turned England hostile to Germany was the latter's pressing to produce a major battle fleet in the Dreadnought period; French diplomatic skill had little to do with it. The root of the French alliance with Russia was that Paris banks financed the Czars, and one of the products of this in the pre-war period, the railways to Vladivostok and Darien, put England at a logger-heads with Russia, to the point that England allied with Japan to halt the potential for naval expansion this represented for Russia, scotching it in the Russo-Japanese War. The true train for the First World War was the final collapse of the Ottoman Empire's pretensions in Europe, and resistance in the Balkans to Austro-Hungarian endeavors to replace the departed Turk, said resistance being backed by Russia, who wanted the place for itself. The old, multi-ethnic land empires of central and eastern Europe were the true source of the thing; the unitary states and sea empire of northern Europe went into the vortex they created, rather than the other way around. Oddly enough, in the 'strange how the wheel turns' sense, it was an apparently small-scale event in the Balkans, the breakout from Salonika late in 1918, which broke Ludendorf's nerve and resolved him to sue for terms, not events on the front in France.

It is quite possible Marshall Petain did the future no favor by preserving France from defeat at Verdun. Just about any situation which might have ensued from bringing that war to a close prior to the Bolshevik revolution may well have prevented a good deal of misery down the decades, but the variables get too large for any surety in speculation. The potential range of outcomes and consequences is simply too great.

The Euro has potential to replace the Dollar as the world's reserve currency, but it is by no means certain it will, even allowing for present economic troubles, which are by no means confined to the United States.

Regarding the clash between Fatah and Hamas, it should be recalled Hamas had long held the potential upper hand in Gaza, while it was weak in the Jordan valley. The clash, when it did come, developed along the expected lines, with Hamas taking Gaza and Fatah holding the Jordan valley, and the weaker party in each locale done down harshly, though not extirpated entire. Support for Fatah from Israel and the U.S. did Fatah no harm in Gaza, and assisted it materially in the Jordan valley. That the recent Israeli offensive may have upset this balance is just one of many reasons for viewing it as a mistake on Israel's part.

Temujin, by the way, was a pretty decent stick, all things considered in light of time and place....

[Arrowhead2k1]

9. You can say that again...

[shira]

13. more Palestinians killed again??? oh...no biggie, Hamas killed them.

:eyes:

and if Hamas says they "deserve it", it must be true.

:sarcasm:

Fatah kills its collaborators too, who aren't necessarily Hamas members:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/978652.html

what? no loud protests? where's that flood of righteous indignation now?

:shrug:

some Palestinians just don't rate for sympathy that is only reserved for those killed by Israelis.

Not the Palestinians killed by Hamas in the Gaza coup of 2007.

And certainly not these Palestinians just recently slaughtered in Lebanon.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/4238efe3f8eaacbd1613b65183b1902f.htm

[PerfectSage]

26. Let me guess hiw it started : the US and Israel thought it would be a

good idea to arm fatah to pull off a coup against Hamas/Hezbollah.

They got their ass kicked in a counter coup and now shira the full of shit is too lazy to tell us how many rockets fatah militia in Gaza fired into Israel.

Betcha they won't be killed as collaborators.

Too bad Israeli's don't have the balls kill their politicians who are incompetent psychopath's.

[shira]

31. just pointing out the faux righteous indignation.....

...of those who pretend to care about Palestinians, but only when they suffer under Israelis and no one else.

Please save the tinfoilhat conspiracy theories about a "counter-coup" with the best evidence for it being one "Vanity Fair" article.

[EFerrari]

21. This is the same story as in that thread about the 600 dead, recycled. n/t

[azurnoir]

25. Regardless of the wrongness of the act it is hardly

a surprise and it is not just Hamas, in any war those seen as collaborators are quite frequently shot it has happened through out history.

[Vegasaurus]

32. Palestinian Rival Says It Is Attacked by Hamas

Yasser Abd Rabbo, an ally of the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, said at a news conference in Ramallah on Thursday that Hamas had “turned its rifles in the direction of Fatah members” after Israel stopped its military offensive on Sunday. Mr. Rabbo accused Hamas of placing Fatah supporters under house arrest and shooting some of them in the legs, an intimidation tactic that it used in the past.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/23/world/middleeast/23revenge.html