Ex-Carter Admin Official: Israel Ignored Hamas Offer Days Before Attacking Gaza; Violated Ceasefire

[DogPoundPup]

Robert Pastor is a senior adviser to the Carter Center and a professor at American University who met with exiled Hamas political leader Khaled Meshaal in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor says Meshaal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire if Israel would lift the siege on Gaza. He says he passed along the statement to the Israeli military, but he never heard back. Two weeks later, Israel launched its three-week assault that left more than 1,300 Palestinians, most of them civilians, at least a third children, dead.

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/1/22/ex_carter_admin_official_israel_ignored

[Captain Hilts]

1. Don't believe either side just now.

Folks say a lot of things.

[DogPoundPup]

2. Several reports previously on this very subject Capt'n

Six Hamas activists killed during Israeli raids in Gaza Strip
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=33024


The Real Goal of Israel’s Blockade

By Jonathan Cook
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article21253.htm

[shira]

3. someone is full of shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx0VXskjoqI&feature=related

Check 0:28 seconds in and you'll find Mashaal stating the tahdiya (calm) remained in effect until Dec 19 (meaning it wasn't broken like a ceasefire) and that it would not be renewed Dec 19. A ceasefire can be broken. "Calm" (agreed upon by Israel/Hamas) means small-scale war of attrition. That wasn't broken by Israel anymore than it was broken by Hamas with its rockets prior to Nov 4 and the tunnel which provoked the IDF attack on that day.

Hamas fired 300 rockets Christmas week - after the tahdiya (calm) was over and done with. Hamas' decision. Israel retaliated in a big way.

Just some facts to counter the MASSIVE amount of disinformation.

[DogPoundPup]

4. yea, someone IS and it isn't me

or my sources. Check the dates on the sources I gave.

[shira]

5. check the video 28 seconds in

that's the Hamas boss refuting your sources.

edit:
And Robert Pastor is a joke. Here he is in the interview:

"On November 4th, Israel intervened into Gaza to shut down a tunnel. There is some dispute as to whether that tunnel was intended to capture an Israeli soldier or whether it was a defensive tunnel to protect against an Israeli incursion.

:rofl:

But in the course of that particular incursion, which of course was a violation of the ceasefire, six Hamas militants were killed. Hamas then responded with 124 rockets that month. So, to a certain degree, the ceasefire was broken as early as November 4th, but technically it was to extend six months until December 19th"

And it wasn't a "ceasefire" - it was a tahdiya (calm period). Big difference.

Pastor only mentions 11 rockets but there were plenty of mortar attacks too. About 40 total before Nov. 4. Gotta love how Hamas gets off the hook for "only" 1-2 rockets/mortars per week, knowing they could do this indefinitely to make life miserable for Israelis.

[delad]

9. why do you find that statement funny?

How do you know it was a tunnel into israel? how do you know FOR A FACT that it wasn't a defensive tunnel? It is well know that Hamas uses tunnels *within gaza* as defensive structures. You seem to presume it was intended to capture a soldier on the basis of IDF conjecture and carry that presumption forward into fact.

Hamas launched no rockets or mortars during the ceasefire to November (no, there isn't a "big difference" between tahdiya and ceasefire). Mark Regev has stated such on tv in an interview. It was other groups who did and the amount of rockets and mortars that were fired had been drastically reduced from over 300 a month in May to 2 in October. Read that again, 2 in October (i'm using Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs for those numbers)

Hamas had actually arrested people shooting rockets. And then Israel kills 6 gazans on the night of the US elections (Nov 4), aware that the US media would be focused elsewhere and so giving Israel the opportunity to commit propagandist sleight of hand later during the conflict knowing that the vast majority of americans would be ignorant of the Nov 4th attack.

[delad]

6. what on earth are you waffling about?

this is taken from memri, about as reliable as Fox news (ie not at all). I doubt anybody with an ounce of integrity would use memri as a source for anything other than to prove that memri is a bullshit, propagandist organisation. I don't know if english is your first language or not, but if it isn't i can understand why your post is disjointed and confusing.

Israel broke the ceasefire on Nov 4th. I'm not sure why you're waffling about disinformation. According to the memri video subtitles, he says that the tahidya/ceasefire will end on Dec 19th and will not be renewed. This is taken from a very short clip from what was obviously a longer video, this is an obvious attempt by memri to decontextualise what was said.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[The Magistrate]

11. Misplaced

"When I make a mistake, it's a beaut!"

[oberliner]

8. Do you dispute the accuracy of MEMRI's translation in the case? If so, which words?

People argue that MEMRI selectively translates articles to create a certain impression about the Arab World, but rarely do people dispute the accuracy of the translations themselves (with the exception of a word or two here or there which are debatable)

If you would like to present the full video in its full context with your own translation (or one from a source you find more trustworhty), please feel free.

[delad]

10. Just using the short clip Shira directs our attention to

1) the narrator states that Hamas "A week before the the conflict in gaza, the hamas leader put an end to a short lived truce". This is not true, Israel did on Nov 4th
2) there is no context for what he said. Everything needs context. It is 8 seconds, two or three sentences from an interview. If you think that context is unnecessary then you're not really interested in what he's saying, you're more interested in shock and propaganda value.
3) "We say that after Dec 19th, the ceasefire will end" and what's wrong with that? a slight change of nuance (and we know that memri is so careful when it comes to nuance, see below) and it becomes, "after Dec 19th, the ceasefire will not be renewed"
4) Memri played a not insignificant role in portraying Ahmedinijad's words as genocidal when he said that Israel (the zionist state) would fall from the pages of history just like the USSR did. Memri's take "Israel will be wiped from the map"

Oberliner, do you think Memri is a reliable source for information on the I/P conflict?

[The Magistrate]

12. As Reliable As Electronic Intafada, Sir

Most everybody has some axe to grind....

[DogPoundPup]

13. Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Israel must disclose weapons it used in Gaza attacks

excerpt~
"Doctors tell us they are encountering new and unexplained patterns of injury among some of the Palestinians injured in Israeli military attacks," said Donatella Rovera. "Some victims of Israeli air strikes were brought in with charred and sharply severed limbs and doctors treating them need to know what weapons were used."

Dr. Subhi Skeik, head of the Surgical Department at al-Shifa Hospital, told Amnesty International delegates: "We have many cases of amputations and vascular reconstructions where patients would be expected to recover in the normal way. But to our surprise many of them died an hour or two after operation. It is dramatic."

"It is vital and urgent that the Israeli authorities disclose all relevant information including what weapons and munitions they used," said Donatella Rovera. "More lives must not be lost because doctors do not know what caused their patients' injuries and what medical complications may occur. They have to be fully informed so that they can provide life-saving care."

Israel's earlier refusal to confirm that its troops had used white phosphorus meant that doctors were unable to provide correct treatment.

http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900SID/RMOI-7NK35D?OpenDocument

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. More specious claims

And if a doc in the middle east can not recognize WP wounds he should turn in his license.

[shira]

16. let's see these bodies examined by doctors

from the West, without Hamas henchman surrounding the medical scene to make certain that only their propaganda is reported.

It's pretty tough for ANY doctor within Gaza to openly report something that would deal a PR blow to Hamas.

[Idealism]

17. Apologists till the end, eh?

Amnesty International has said white phosphorous was used, the U.N. acknowledges it, and the IDF even admitted to it. What more do you need?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

22. The WP wounds will be obvious. Its the other claims of mystery weapons that should be reviewed

I've pointed out that DIME has never been acknowledged as field by anyone, though there is no reason not to announce it. The seminal source of those claims is the dutch doc (Mads Gilbert). If its out there, it should come out.

[EFerrari]

24. No, that's backward. It's hard for any doctor to BE in Gaza

to report something that would deal a PR blow to the IDF which is why they were kept out and people were dying on the floors of medical facilities. The ones that weren't burned down or bombed out of service, that is.

And there has been plenty of independent reporting out of Gaza. Why do you think the Israel spin apparatus was going full tilt bogey? Because they knew they couldn't control it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. The problem is the full tilt bogey on both sides has left fact a casualty as well

[EFerrari]

30. No. The even handed "both sides" Fox defense doesn't work

when you have people with cell phones taking pictures and calling in reports and journalists with cameras going around Gaza and into hospitals and into UN facilities and showing what happened.

That's how we know that many more than 600 people have been killed.

It's funny. The Israelis bragged about hitting 60 "targets" just about every night of their "operation". And now, they have to undo that bragging and minimize the destruction that was supposed to be impressive only a few days ago. Good luck to them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. And the hyperbole and outright lies of sources like EI are better?

I agree the body count is low, just like it was in New Orleans

I have not seen serious revisions in the IDF account of things of the level you claim.

[EFerrari]

41. Right. The IDF still claims it didn't use white phosphorus on civilians

and the world has seen that they did.

Maybe time for an eye check.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

42. Actually I think they have confirmed use of WP at this point

insisting it was all within the LOW. Several posts here in that vein.

[delad]

19. ???

are you sure you're responding to the right post?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

23. Using EI and other sources came up as an issue the other day

Sites that are agenda first and facts later IMO. The standard for journalism is quite low on some of those sites.

[shira]

14. MEMRI is dead-on accurate here

See this, as it quotes Khaled Meshaal stating exactly what MEMRI translates:

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSTRE4BD1BE20081214

Couldn't be more clear. You're wrong on every count.

===================================

"Israel, which has traded fire with Palestinian Islamists in the enclave in recent weeks, sent a senior official to Cairo and said it was ready to prolong the Egyptian-brokered ceasefire which began on June 19. and runs out on Friday.

In an interview in Damascus, where he lives in exile, Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal told Al-Quds Television: "We in Hamas, and in most of the factions, think that after December 19 the truce ends and it will not be renewed."

He complained that Israel had not eased its blockade on the territory, as Hamas had hoped when it agreed to end rocket fire.

"We are studying the issue of the calm with our allies ... and, God willing, we will reach a vision within the coming days," Meshaal said.

"But I believe the general mood, among the people and among the factions is against extending calm because the enemy did not abide by its obligations."

A Hamas official in Gaza, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the group would issue a formal statement in a few days that the ceasefire would end.

"Hamas's decision is not to renew calm after it expires," the official said."

==========================

[delad]

18. I'm sorry shira

but you're foaming at the mouth. How can you claim I'm "wrong on every count" and then ignore the criticisms i've laid out in my post and instead quote reuters? Which itself does nothing other than quote Meshaal at slightly longer lenght. Regardless, as i've already said, your original post was confusing and disjointed so maybe I am missing something vital here. Hold on, i see you've emphasised the word "calm" several times...

having reread and parsed your painful English, it does seem to me that the point you're trying to make is that there wasn't a "ceasefire" but a "calm" (or some such nebulous non-"ceasefire" concept). Furthermore, because it wasn't a western, civilised "ceasefire" but a brutish, foreign, dirty "calm/tahidya/whatever" that there was no agreement to truly cease fire in the first place and therefore Israel *couldn't* have broken a "ceasefire" on November 4. Ergo Israel isn't to blame for the outbreak of hostilities and the collapse of the "whatever" but Hamas is because they said "it" wouldn't be renewed. Is this the point you are making?

[shira]

20. your claim was that the "ceasefire" ended Nov 4 due to Israel

Meshaal flatly refutes that with his own words, stating that the calm wouldn't be renewed after it expires. Therefore, it didn't expire Nov 4. Not according to Hamas. It was still in effect. The "truce" didn't end until after Dec 19, according to the Hamas boss.

And yes, what you wrote in your 2nd paragraph is the point I'm making.

[pelsar]

21. another colonialist style progressive?

ceasefire" but a "calm" (or some such nebulous non-"ceasefire" concept)

hate to break it to you but the locals...(israelis and Palestenians) worked out a tahidya...and its not a "whatever" (wow, talk about looking down on a concept that has no translation to english/american). Its an actual concept that has some values for the locals

what exactly was agreed upon you have absolutely no idea, since it was never written, never signed, never published.......all you know is that israel had an action that according to your own world view must negate the "cease fire" despite the fact that non existed....even though the two parties that actually made an agreement (them locals) saw no infraction on the israeli part.

and here comes big progressive to explain to the locals how they simply dont understand what they agreed to.....kind a reminds me of the white missionaries and their attitude towards the local customs and people - they also thought they new better for they had the superior culture and dismissed the locals (how did you write it? "whatever")

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. Ouch!

I did research on tahidya vs hudna. I did find articles on both sides and I recall discussion of those differences at the time. My arabic is too rusty to read primary sources, though I checked with colleagues in the region and they supported that it was indeed a tahidya, which is different that a western style ceasefire (as is a hudna).

Your missionary analogy goes along way in places like Hawaii.

[pelsar]

28. what nov 4 was all about....

for those who actually accept the concept that the 'locals" can have an agreement that the "big white elitist western progressive" might not understand...i shall explain what probably happened.

the tahidya is based on the concept of "less shooting"..that means reduced actions and its a risk. When hamas still shoots a missile the tahidya will continue as long as it doesnt hit anything. If by pure chance it does hit a school and kill 10 kids, that is the end of the tahidya. If on the other hand israel sends over some jets and bombs a major building in gaza city, that too would end the tahidya.

so what is not understood by our "western culturaly superior progressives" is that a kidnapping by hamas (known as a "quality hit" in the local language) would also break the agreement, that leaves israel with the right to prevent such an event without breaking the tahidya....which is why the israeli raid on nov 4 on a tunnel that was directed toward israel, did not according to both israeli and Hamas sources break the "lull".

[ProgressiveProfessor]

29. Your point is well taken about projecting western defintions and assumptions

Its way too subtle for the M$M and some members here

[delad]

33. I was actually referring to

the symantic gymnastics you apologists seem to contort yourselves into when describing how Arabs don't do ceasefires, merely tahidyas and hudnas. The fact of the matter is on Nov 4 Israel killed 6 gazans, to which Hamas retaliated and the cycle of violence was begun again. After that, Israel claimed that Hamas had broken the "ceasefire" by building tunnels to capture Israeli soldiers. A massive presumption. Either israel was observing a 'ceasefire' or it wasn't. We all know how fragile ceasefires are in that region and for israel to launch that attack on Nov 4 in the face of massively declining rocket and mortar attacks was wanton and deliberate. Israel continually referred to it as a 'ceasefire' in western media

ps links please re tahidya

[pelsar]

34. gymnastics or ignorance-i was referring to your

your superior understanding of the local language and culture......
The hamas spokesman as did the israelis made it clear it was not a cease fire but a tahidya (as did the events on the ground).....you may not understand the local language or culture and its clear by your attitude that you really dont "give a shit"....all i'm saying is that it just reminds me of the colonialistic attitude of previous generations.

your "western media" was translations from both hebrew and arabic...some journalist werent so lazy and actually used the proper word, for other, such as your self, they made it into a simpler sound byte that could be understood, i guess, by the "average joe".

google is your friend....just look up tahidya or tahidiya

_____

did you really write this?.....

you apologists seem to contort yourselves into when describing how Arabs don't do ceasefires, merely tahidyas and hudnas

so you think arabic is so totally beneath your english that they cant have words that do not have specific meanings in english?


egypt and jordan had ceasefires, syria has a cease fire with lsrael (they think of themselves as arabs-in case you dont)...hamas had something else...sometimes it was hudna, recently a tahidya. (or maybe you think hamas needs some help from you, since you obviously think they arent smart enough to understand what a tahidya is.....)

shhees a classic example of american colonialism: did you ever read the book the "ugly american?"

a small piece of advice....america does not rule the world...and its culture outside of macdonalds, is not accepted throughout the world as the superior culture that all have to "reach".....try acknowledging other cultures for their own ways and definitions... (funny thing to write on a "progressive board")

[delad]

36. the reason

i don't give a fuck hearing from you what it's called is because, despite it being proven that *israel* reignited this cycle of violence with its assault on Nov 4th, there are some keyboard warriors on this site trying to prove that it was hamas' fault and they are trying to do this by pointing out that it wasn't a 'ceasefire' but it was a xxxx. As if these pathetic word games absolve israel of its guilt in killing hundreds of palestinians and injuring thousands more.

Now, give me somebody who wishes to educate me for the purposes of knowledge, explication or enlightenment and I'm all theirs but i'm really not interested in splitting hairs with you.

ps: go on then, just out of curiosity, do you have any links?

[shira]

37. so when the Hamas boss says that

the agreement, whatever it was they had with Israel, did not expire until Dec. 19.......meaning it was still in effect, you just ignore that and drone on about reports that it was over with after Nov 4 due to Israel's response to the "defensive" tunnel?

Maybe the Hamas boss was ignorant of the agreement? He should have known it was over with but didn't get the memo - and therefore thought it was still in effect for another 6 weeks?

=========

Hamas fired 300 rockets Christmas week after refusing to extend the agreement they had with Israel after Dec 19.

And Israel should have done __________________ exactly, in response?

And Hamas waited to unleash their barrage of rockets until after Dec 19 because _____________ ?

[pelsar]

38. your reason is based on your 'superior" knowledge of the agreement?

its not splitting hairs....you were very clear: israel broke the ceasefire.....and you were simply wrong..plus you were wrong to assume because of the Nov 4 attack the lull period had ended, on the contrary. After a bit of retaliation by hamas, in which israel does some of its own retaliation, both sides "calmed down" and that is just the facts:

______________
Nov 4, 2008 IDF discovers tunnel into Israel being built from Gaza, launches incursion to destroy it. Six Hamas gunmen killed. Hamas and others launch about 35 rockets into Israel in the coming days and IDF retaliates. Operations continue for several days. Both sides insist they want the truce to continue.

things calm down after that....for almost 3 Weeks!...now i guess your assuming that hamas is like really really slow since it took them over 20+ days to figure out that, according to you, israel broke the "cease fire"...except of course they never did mention that as to th reason why they decided not to continue the lull....just out of curiosity, do you even know the reason hamas gave for not continuing with it? (some how i doubt it)
____________
Dec. 19, 2008 Hamas announces that the "lull" (tahidiya) has expired and that it will not be renewed. Rocket fire from Gaza is stepped up.
Dec. 24, 2008 About 60 rockets and mortar shells are launched at Israel by Hamas and associated groups from Gaza.

after that lsrael invades gaza
but i do get why you have to go back 3 weeks to blame israel...since in fact it was hamas that publicly declared it was over and let loose a barrage of rockets to send the point home.....to blame israel you have to go back 3 weeks and assume that hamas has no idea what they agreed to and that it took them 3 weeks to figure that israel broke it and that they are just dumb for not mentioning it..congratulations that is one of the more imaginative ways of blaming israel for an action initiated by hamas that i have seen in a long time (and i've seen some real good ones too) but its good hamas has people like you to explain to the westerners in english, what hamas would like them to believe, but are just way too dumb to put forth the proper sound bytes:

_____________
i guess they should have said something like this:

"hamas spokesman: explains that the israeli attack 3 weeks ago is the reason they are stopping the lull. it took hamas 3 weeks to gather the evidence, do an autopsy on the bodies to prove without a doubt, that it was the IDF that attacked their defensive position without provocation"
_________________


links for what? the definition or the non written agreement? The definition is easy simply type it in google......you'll find more than enough and then all you do is apply it to the incidents since it started plus the comments about continuing the lull and its clarifies the concept. But you wont find the non written agreement in google...as its non written.

btw if your complaint is the actual invasion, that is something else, but its clear that hamas decided it was time to go back to war...they just didnt expect that israel would change the rules

[delad]

44. until i see some links

all i hear is noise

yes, hamas said the 'ceasefire' would not be 'renewed'

israel maintained the blockade in spite of the agreement. Or did you conveniently forget about that?

[pelsar]

48. no didnt forget about anything.....

the closure of the borders had the same rational they had before the lull: shoot kassams borders closed, dont shoot borders open...

or is the cause and effect confusing?

exactly what links are you looking for?

and you keep writing as if you know about the agreement....so will you please send me the links so that i too can study the agreement (or are you just making it all up?)

[delad]

50. that makes so much sense

i have to provide links for something widely aknowledged but you don't have to provide any evidence for a fringe view.

[pelsar]

51. no links?...didnt think so....

so you cant find any links that explain exactly the agreement is...yet you constantly write that you know what it is......

my "fringe view" as you call is, is the agreement between the locals (you know the ones your so condescending to)....the definition used by hamas during many TV interviews for the lull.....its really not to complicated nor difficult

but if you really want some links:
In addition, according to the report, Israel pledged to refrain from massive offensive operations but is reserving the right to carry out attacks on specific targets should the need arise
-an interesting cease fire definition isnt it......

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3517968,00.html
__________

http://www.channel4.com/news/article.jsp?id=2888567

We announce that the calm between us and the Zionist enemy has finished entirely and it will not be renewed as a result of the occupation's denial of its fundamental conditions and obligations." Note they didnt really explain what those obligations are, nor did they use the word ceasefire.....
____

so where now is your link to the ceasefire agreement....i'll be waiting.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. Thats okay, ain't none of us buying your delusions of grand strategy either

[shira]

35. take your meds

You've now been proven wrong WRT several "facts" in this conflict. Sorry your feelings are hurt. Might I suggest a little Barnes and Noble for you? Fiction section.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

39. Finkelstein suggests that precisely BECAUSE Hamas is in favor of 2 states

they had to be dealt with.

Take a moment to digest it: Hamas had to sidelined, not because they were firing rockets, but because they were moving toward peace.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=252269&mesg_id=252269

[shira]

40. sounds like a great plan

for Hamas.

Israel retreats behind 1967 borders and allows millions of refugees in before Hamas considers a hudna.

Where does Israel sign up for this great deal?

[Idealism]

43. You are right, why should Israel want peace?

Their economy is doing great with war spending as is. Anytime Israel wants peace, they could have it, but illegal settlements and stolen land mean more to them than peace.

[shira]

45. so you don't recognize the threat, or pretend not to?

The plan is for Israel to retreat behind 1967 borders (okay fine) allow at least a million Palestinian refugees in (looking for a just solution), not expect Palestinian terror to halt - and then wait for the Arab world to consider "normal" relations (whatever that means)?

Even if Israel take in just one million (possibly very hostile) refugees, this would swell Israel's population by about 15%. Think of the USA taking in nearly 50 million, forget many of them are likely hostile, and think of what this would mean only economically. And who's to say one million is "just", according to the Saudi plan? Maybe nothing short than all, or half is "just".

And Israel is to just take on blind faith, hope and a prayer, that this will "normalize" relations with Saudi Arabia AND nations like Iran (with its proxies in Lebanon, Syria, Gaza, etc.)? They'll all come together? And since these countries treat their own citizens with sooo much respect, we should expect them to treat Israel better?

:eyes:

After years of hateful and intolerant anti-semitic propaganda in all their media (see MEMRI), what is "normal" once Israel is rendered defenseless before coming to the negotiating table?

You don't realize how unrealistic and diabolical this is?

[Idealism]

49. What the hell are you talking about?

Lasting peace, normalized relations (meaning no economic sanctions), and full recognition. Your postulation about "hostile" refugees in xenophobic. Most Gazan's want a two-state solution, and wouldn't run back to an Israel where they would be second-class citizens.

Proportionality is not your strong suit, shira. The U.S. didn't expel an entire population from there land. We did pretty bad things to the native Americans, and do you have any idea how much money and special privileges we give them today in restitution?

Palestinian terror halted during the last cease-fire, until Israel decided to kill 6 Palestinians. There were no rocket attacks into Israel, until Israel assassinated Jamal Mansour. Qassam's weren't even produced until after Mansour's brutal killing. There were no suicide bombers into Israel before an an off-duty IDF reservist decided to kill 29 Palestinians while they were praying (Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron massacre).

Palestinian 'terror' is a result of Israel's actions: their assassinations, their extrajudical killing of civilians, and their collective punishment.

[pelsar]

52. are you really sure about your timelines?

and the cause and affects?...or did you just make them up?

but this just shows ignorance:
Palestinian 'terror' is a result of Israel's actions: their assassinations, their extrajudical killing of civilians, and their collective punishment.

i assume you knowledge of history is about a day or two...and really doesnt go beyond that.......

[Scurrilous]

46. Israel’s Lies

<snip>

"Western governments and most of the Western media have accepted a number of Israeli claims justifying the military assault on Gaza: that Hamas consistently violated the six-month truce that Israel observed and then refused to extend it; that Israel therefore had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s capacity to launch missiles into Israeli towns; that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, part of a global jihadi network; and that Israel has acted not only in its own defence but on behalf of an international struggle by Western democracies against this network.

I am not aware of a single major American newspaper, radio station or TV channel whose coverage of the assault on Gaza questions this version of events. Criticism of Israel’s actions, if any (and there has been none from the Bush administration), has focused instead on whether the IDF’s carnage is proportional to the threat it sought to counter, and whether it is taking adequate measures to prevent civilian casualties.

Middle East peacemaking has been smothered in deceptive euphemisms, so let me state bluntly that each of these claims is a lie. Israel, not Hamas, violated the truce: Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip . . . When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire . . . You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’

The truce, which began in June last year and was due for renewal in December, required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad (even Israel’s intelligence agencies acknowledged this had been implemented with surprising effectiveness), and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions. This understanding was seriously violated on 4 November, when the IDF entered Gaza and killed six members of Hamas. Hamas responded by launching Qassam rockets and Grad missiles. Even so, it offered to extend the truce, but only on condition that Israel ended its blockade. Israel refused. It could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that Hamas declared an end to suicide bombings and rocket fire when it decided to join the Palestinian political process, and largely stuck to it for more than a year. Bush publicly welcomed that decision, citing it as an example of the success of his campaign for democracy in the Middle East. (He had no other success to point to.) When Hamas unexpectedly won the election, Israel and the US immediately sought to delegitimise the result and embraced Mahmoud Abbas, the head of Fatah, who until then had been dismissed by Israel’s leaders as a ‘plucked chicken’. They armed and trained his security forces to overthrow Hamas; and when Hamas – brutally, to be sure – pre-empted this violent attempt to reverse the result of the first honest democratic election in the modern Middle East, Israel and the Bush administration imposed the blockade."

more

[shira]

47. Henry Siegman's lies

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=139&x_article=1197

Siegman, the author of "Israel and its lies" (among his most recent hate diatribes) is a known and proven propagandist. Why would any progressive continue to post his lies here?

[oberliner]

53. The poster to whom you responded is not going to find anything from CAMERA to be presuasive nt