AFP: Israel to protect its soldiers from war crimes charges

[laststeamtrain]

Israel to protect its soldiers from war crimes charges

JERUSALEM (AFP) – Israel will grant legal protection for soldiers who fought in the three-week war in the Gaza Strip, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said on Sunday amid accusations of war crimes.

"The commanders and soldiers sent to Gaza need to know that they are completely safe from different tribunals and Israel will help and protect them," he said.

Olmert confirmed he had appointed Justice Minister Daniel Friedman to chair an inter-ministerial committee "to coordinate Israel's efforts to offer legal defence for anyone who took part in the operation.

"He will formulate questions and answers relating to the army's operations, which self-righteous people ... might use to sue officers and soldiers," the prime minister said.

Israel's military censor has already banned the publication of the identity of the unit leaders who fought against Hamas militants in Gaza for fear they may face war crimes charges.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon on Tuesday demanded that those responsible for bombing UN buildings in the Palestinian territory should be made accountable and accused Israel of using excessive force.

<more>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090125/wl_afp/mideastgazaisraelwarcrime_20090125133742

[ikojo]

1. Israel has learned a lot by mimicking the

United States and the conduct of US soldiers around the world. What makes these two countries think they are outside the law and should not be held accountable for war crimes? Does the war crimes tribunal exist for every country EXCEPT Israel and the US?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

5. What law? International Law is not like the US Code

Few here recognize how fuzzy international law is including the LOW. Its not like group of well written city ordinances. Precedents are few, and not that much better defined. Lots of arm waving but little basis for action.

To be subject to the ICC, the nation has to first agree to it. The US, Israel, and IIRC a few others have not signed up to it. Without standing, there is nothing the ICC can do.

The process is also very very slow. They are still grinding through the Balkans, and Africa. They have never gotten to and probably never will Lebanon.


This is not so much a defense of Israel, but a reality check on the ICC and the state of international law.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

13. Any part of international law that the US has signed/ratified tho IS US law according to

the Constitution :)

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Problem is that Intl Law is more fuzzy than substantive

Its not really a well racked and stacked codification. No rigid definitions and such. The entire WP issue is Gaza is a good case in point. Its use is legal sometimes, sometimes its not, and the difference is intent. Then there is the collateral damage issue. Same goes with the disproportionate force arguments.

Not really taking sides so much as saying Intl Law ain't like what we see on Law and Order.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

19. Not really gonna argue against that, just wanted to point out

that according to the US constitution any treaty/agreement that has been accepted becomes a part of the USA's 'supreme laws of the land' :)

That section tho most people i talk to seem to be unaware of for some reason

[Howardx]

2. israels "protection" may end up being

refusing any of the guilty permission to leave israel. that may be the only "protection" they can offer.

[bemildred]

3. So, they can hide but they can't run? nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

6. Sort of. The ICC will not have jurisdiction, but localities with long arm statutes will try

and use them.

Looks a lot like what happened after Lebanon, which ended up being a whole lot of nothing.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. There are other approaches including diplomatic immunity

[Howardx]

7. after the fact "diplomatic immunity"?

not sure how that works.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Basic rules are that you can not arrest someone under diplomatic immunity without agreement from

their government. Its pretty much blanket coverage. All you can do is declare them persona non grata.

It goes all the way down to parking tickets. Dip plates used to be infamous for getting massive collections of parking citations in NYC and Wash DC. I want to remember reading that the parking stuff was being addressed by some countries, not sure what became of it.

[Howardx]

10. i'll look into that

im not sure you can immunize people from war crimes simply by declaring them diplomats.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. It removes them from prosecution in the country they are in, not by the ICC

Pinochet could never have been prosecuted if his immunity had not been withdrawn

[Idealism]

21. Pinochet was prosecuted? n/t

[Idealism]

9. Israel has protected itself often from war crimes

largely due to not being a signatory for the ICC/ICJ. They were found guilt of crimes in the World Court before, but ignored the resolutions (as did their allies).

This won't happen most likely. The U.N. Commission on Human Rights has found Israel guilty of breaking international law in the past, but like I said, these resolutions get ignored by the U.S. and Israel.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

12. The U.N. Commission on Human Rights is not a court and can not find anyone or any nation guilty

of anything

[Idealism]

14. They draft resolutions for the World Court, which has found Israel guilty

Israel chose to ignore that outcome, however.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

15. So the U.N. Commission on Human Rights really has not found Israel guilty

Now the claim is that they drafted resolutions for the World Court, except that courts do not use resolutions.



There are some facts out there on the process and events. I suggest you look them up before posting.

[Idealism]

16. I have showed you transcripts of one such event

The Commission took a draft to a vote to adopt the resolution, it passed, went to the world court for consideration. In the past, I believe in the 1970s, the world court has found Israel's military guilt of war crimes, but the decision was ignored.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

18. OK so they voted on a resolution to refer something to the WC.

That is a lot different than finding of guilt by the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. Can you document the causal linkage and did the WC/ICC/ICJ made a finding without a defendant over which they standing?

[Idealism]

20. Mr. Levy (Israel's rep) refused to stand

even after being out-voted and trying to veto the resolution. I didn't mean to imply the Commission found him guilty, sorry if the wording suggested that. The Commission only voted to pass the resolution dealing with extrajudicial killing to the WC. The European Union has been particularly pushing hard for a wide-reaching settlement in regards to extrajudicial killings.

[Scurrilous]

22. Israel can't stop war crimes claims-Palestinian minister

<snip>

"A pledge by Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to protect Israeli soldiers from foreign prosecution over alleged war crimes in the Gaza Strip cannot prevent such legal action, a senior Palestinian official said on Sunday.

"It does not mean there is an immunity against legal actions," Palestinian Foreign Minister Riyad al-Malki said after meeting counterparts from the European Union, Egypt, Turkey and Jordan.

"More of such efforts will be seen also in the near future," he told a news conference, without referring to any specific plans for legal action."

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSLP165404

[NeoConsSuck]

23. Israel prepares legal defense of soldiers

Source: CNN.COM

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Israel's government on Sunday approved a measure that will give legal protection to its military officers if they are accused of war crimes during the Gaza incursion, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said.

<snip>

The Israeli government -- particularly the Defense and Justice ministries -- is concerned that Israeli military officers could be singled out in future lawsuits alleging human rights violations during Israel's recent offensive against Hamas, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an independent investigation into Israeli military actions that damaged U.N. facilities in Gaza. Israel is alleged to have used white phosphorous shells which sparked a massive fire at the U.N. humanitarian compound.

The use of white phosphorus is restricted under international law.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/25/gaza.legal.defense/index.html

[byeya]

24. Diplomatic and commercial relations

Israel and the USA may be able to stall and hold off meaningful attempts to prosecute those who ordered and carried out operations against international law, but, country by country, you can end commercial and/or diplomatic relations with Israel if the accusations prove to be correct.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. A nation can end commerical and diplomatic relations at any time for any reason

Its also not clear that international law was broken. Its not that bad things were not done but Intl Law is in a pretty sorry state and the IDF may well have complied with the letter of the LOW.

Nothing came out of Lebanon, which was actually much more destructive and horrific.

[BunkerHill24]

25. Israel Deploys Lawyers to Head Off War-Crimes Charges

(Bloomberg)The Israeli army deployed more than military force in its Gaza Strip campaign: Along with tanks and soldiers, it used lawyers and leaflets in what it says was an effort to save civilian lives and bolster its case against accusations of war crimes.

Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and B’tselem, the Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, say Israeli actions in Gaza, where a 22-day war killed more than 1,300 Palestinians, should be investigated for possible war crimes.

snip

“Israel’s use of heavy artillery in residential areas of Gaza City violates the prohibition under the laws of war against indiscriminate attacks,” Human Rights Watch said in a Jan. 16 press release.

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International accuse Israel of using white phosphorus shells, which can cause severe burns, in densely populated areas in Gaza. White phosphorus is permissible under international law to provide smoke screens, while the Geneva Convention bars the use of incendiary ammunition against civilian targets.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aMvUB8w9xphM&refer=home

[Downwinder]

27. Might be some benefits to the position

Might be some benefits to the position as it will show that any war crimes were official government positions.

[cosmicone]

28. welcome to DU n/t

[Downwinder]

30. Thank you, good to be here.

I have been lurking for a couple months. Decided it was time to get my feet wet.

[razors edge]

29. Our tax dollars at work. n/t

[malaise]

31. Oops-Israeli PM in war crimes pledge

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7850085.stm
<snip>
Any Israeli soldiers accused of war crimes in the Gaza Strip will be given state protection from prosecution overseas, the country's PM has said.

Ehud Olmert said troops should know Israel would keep them safe after they acted to protect their country.

Palestinians say 1,300 people died during the offensive, and UN officials want independent probes into whether war crimes were committed.
---------------
Well they'd better not travel overseas. Many countries don't share his view.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Same goes for bushco

[malaise]

33. Yep

Bush knew what he was doing ages ago. He tried to force governments in developing countries to guarantee immunity for his fellow war criminals.

I am curious though- wasn't Olmert charged for fraud?

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Olmert has so many skeletons, no longer in closet, it is comical

I just try to avoid discussion the I-P over here, since I tend to fault both sides, and each where they deserve it

That makes me less than popular, that ability to see black, white and gray

Though my mom, she is 79 today, who never could see a blemish, finally got critical

And realized why I tend to see things more in the deep shades of gray

Olmert is a cartoon of some of our own politicos when it comes to influence pedling and other no-nos of political life,

Or as I like to put it, they are only no-nos if you get caught

[malaise]

35. If you get caught seems to be the rule for

politicians everywhere.

[struggle4progress]

36. Israel vows to back soldiers accused of war crimes (AP)

By JOSEF FEDERMAN – 48 minutes ago

JERUSALEM (AP) — Special legal teams will defend Israeli soldiers against potential war crimes charges stemming from civilian deaths in the Gaza Strip, the prime minister said Sunday, promising the country would "fully back" those who fought in the three-week offensive.

The move reflected growing concerns by Israel that officers could be subject to international prosecution, despite the army's claims that Hamas militants caused the civilian casualties by staging attacks from residential areas.

"The state of Israel will fully back those who acted on its behalf," Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said. "The soldiers and commanders who were sent on missions in Gaza must know that they are safe from various tribunals."

Speaking at the weekly meeting of his Cabinet, Olmert said Israel's justice minister would lead a team of senior officials to coordinate the legal defense of anyone involved in the offensive ...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95UECG00

[Iggo]

39. UnBEARably ironic.

[ikojo]

37. There are many places in the US where these

soldiers would be welcomed as heroes. Of course many of those doing the welcoming would never dare to enlist in the armed forces themselves. That's for other people to do.

[azurnoir]

38. Well of course the US is as

we are no longer members of the ICJ thanks to Bush, in fact the US at present is a safe haven for war criminals from a number of places

[azurnoir]

40. Link to some names

mostly field commanders, it is from a currently running thread that will almost certainly get locked

http://www.kawther.info/wpr/2009/01/26/names-and-photos-of-israeli-war-criminals-in-gaza

[Scurrilous]

41. Lecturers say IDF officer who justified Gaza strikes should not teach law

<sni>

"Professors at Tel Aviv University are protesting a decision to appoint Col. Pnina Sharvit-Baruch as a lecturer for the Faculty of Law.

The objections come in the wake of a recent story published in Haaretz about Sharvit-Baruch, who heads the Israel Defense Forces international law division.

The report said that under Sharvit-Baruch's command, IDF legal experts legitimized strikes involving Gaza civilians, including the bombardment of the Gaza police course closing ceremony.

Sharvit-Baruch is planning on retiring from the army in the coming months and is scheduled to teach at the university's law department next semester.

Leading the protest against Sharvit-Baruch's appointment is Professor Chaim Ganz of the university's Minerva Center for Human Rights.

Ganz wrote a letter to Professor Hanoch Dagan, the dean of the law faculty, claiming that Sharvit-Baruch's interpretation of the law during Israel's Gaza offensive allowed the army to act in ways that constitute potential war crimes. Ganz also said that Sharvit-Baruch harms Israel's values system.

Dr. Anat Matar, a lecturer at Tel Aviv University's philosophy department, said, "I was shocked to learn that half of the second-year law students will learn the foundations of law from someone who helped justify the killing of civilians, including hundreds of children."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1058847.html