Israel continues with the illegal settlements

[bluesoul]

Israel's Defense Ministry confirmed Monday it will provide services to eight West Bank settlement outposts, despite the government's earlier pledge to remove them as part of a stalled U.S.-backed peace plan.

Dismantling dozens of unauthorized settlement outposts was one of Israel's obligations under the "road map" peace plan, which was launched in June with great fanfare, but quickly bogged down over disagreements and violence.

Palestinians complained that Israel is systematically undermining the road map.

<snip>

Source: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=1&u=/ap/20031027/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians

[Muddleoftheroad]

1. Undermining

As opposed to the endless stream of terror attacks which, of course, don't undermine the Roadmap at all since it was never intended to provide security for Israel.

[tinnypriv]

2. I think you might be responding to the wrong thread

:shrug:

Usually, comments bear some resemblence to the post being responded to.

[bluesoul]

3. Well

It has become a habbit avoiding the main topic by some that refuse to deal with the facts..

[Muddleoftheroad]

4. Or you might not be reading the thread

Since my comment was in direct response to the third graph:

"Palestinians complained that Israel is systematically undermining the road map." Note, for those of you who are unable to follow at home, I even used the word, "undermining" in my headline.

Thanks for playing.

[Resistance]

5. It's still avoidance of the illegal settlement issue

You know, the theft of land thing which you ultra-nationalists continue to ignore?

Yeah that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

6. Nope, not theft

It's security. End the terror and we'll see where the border finally ends up.

[drewb]

7. Quote "End the terror and we'll see where the border finally ends up."

That's what's being offered. You do this and then maybe I'll do that.

That's why there is a sense of hopelessness. That is precisely why people are willing to blow themselves up.

It's no wonder they (the Palestinians) got tired of chasing that carrot and are resorting to more forceful means.

[bluesoul]

8. Exactly

And they won't stop the forceful means until they see that Israel does change it policy of occupation, settlement building and every other violation of international law and UN conventions

[Muddleoftheroad]

9. Blowing themselves up

I have no problem with terrorists blowing themselves up, it's blowing up others with them that I object to. I wish, frankly, that all of the terrorists would just blow themselves up and we can get down to settling this mess.

You reference my statement like it's bizarre. We both want a peace treaty, but it will be incredibly complex, as you probably noticed in the most recent attempt. At issue are not only territory and resources, but security and somehow possibly allowing people from Gaza to visit the West Bank and vice versa. And much, much more.

A peace treaty will try and sort that out, but I guarantee that the Palestinians won't get everything they want. That's what happens in negotiations. If they truly expect to get all that they want, then again, there is no reason for Israel to negotiate.

Ultimately, the carrot is statehood and peace. If that's not enough, of a carrot for the Palestinians, then the hell with them.

[bluesoul]

10. Well

If Palestinians don't get what rightfully belongs to them then don't expect them to give up their resistance. Plain and simple

[Muddleoftheroad]

11. So what does rightfully belong to them?

That's an awful open-ended question.

Some Palestinians feel that all of the region including Israel belongs to them. Others want to keep fighting till they are allowed to live in Israel, not quite the same thing, but basically the same. Still others want all of the West Bank and Gaza and a magical corridor linking the two. Some saner ones want a state and peace to be worked out like all such things get worked out -- to the benefit and detriment of both sides.

Which do you choose?

[jplawne]

24. Resistance to their own violence

I think you pretty much summed up the entire Palestinian approach to the 'peace' process. Use violence until they get exactly what they want at the negotiation table. This was Arafat's approach when he turned down Barak and Clinton at Camp David II and unleashed the violence. He got the best deal he ever expected to see in negotiations and now considers this a baseline from which violence can move him forward to achieve his next level of demands.

The really disappointing part is not the Palestinian approach. Violence has been their predominate tool since they were Arabs and Jews were Palestinians before 1947. What is disappointing is that people such as you support violence as a means to an end. This is totally against liberal humanistic values. This is more akin to the type of twisted neo-Marxist racist logic of the far left that says a people because of their color and perceived class status are absolved from any kind of moral responsibility if they are fighting against the oppressive Western, white, capitalists.

The decision of what Palestinians get is to be made at the negotiation table. As for what is rightfully theirs; they gave up those rights when they turned down the UN partition plan and launched a war against Israel. This is the nasty thing about war. You can never turn back the clock when you use war to solve your political problems.

[bluesoul]

26. wrong

They didn't give up anything. You may live in such illusions but that lands is theirs from the get go..

[Darranar]

27. LOL...

usual propaganda, usual spin.

"The palestinians are so violent! How can we make peace?"

The Palestinians and Israelis have always been violent towards one another. BOTH sides, not one.

[edzontar]

12. Sentiment so worthy, so in keeping...

With the great Dr. King.

NOT!

[Muddleoftheroad]

13. Wrong

Dr. King would massively have prefered evil men do no harm to others so we could move on with peace.

[edzontar]

17. King would never have sanctioned the kind of repression and brutality....

That you and some others routinely excuse on this board.

I am quite certain of that.

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. We all seek the end of measures done to protect civilians

The easy solution is the end of the terrorist organizations.

[edzontar]

20. Your answers are always one-sided....

You seem to be incapable of recognizing the complexity of the situation that you insist on commenting on.

You can't make a chicken-egg argument here....everything that is happening right now is intimately interconnected, and only good faith efforts by both sides can end it.

PLEASE don't answer with "just stop the terror" again.

TRY, won't you, just ONE TIME, to think in a complicated manner about this...the situation IS very complex, and simplistic answers serve no purpose.

[Muddleoftheroad]

22. It is very complicated

And actually settling the peace will take decades.

But there is only one move that can be made now that will actually move us forward. You and I both know what that is.

No matter how you look at the border issue, it will be complicated to fix. The Palestinians not only want the West Bank and Gaza, they also seek to connect them. The Israelis will not give up everything they gained in 1967 no matter what. And that ignores the complexity of water rights, air travel, border crossing, etc.

So let's say Israel took an action. Here are some possibilities:

* Stopping new settlements and/or shutting down some existing ones. Lacking any semblance of a peace agreement or any move to end the terror, Israel gains nothing. All that the world and the Palestinians will say is, "What about the rest?" That is not a negotiation, it is a surrender on Israel's part.
* Withdrawing entirely from the territories (not that it will happen because of Jerusalem), walling them off and telling the Palestinians to get fucked. The world will still be upset. How dare Israel disallow contact with the new Palestinian state? How dare Israel disallow travel between the West Bank and Gaza? Israel loses and gains nothing yet again.

In either case, the terror continues because nothing has been done to stop it. In fact, because Israel has pulled back, the terror strategy has succeeded, so now the terrorists are emboldened and strengthened in the Palestinian world. Terror increases, Bombings increase. If only Israel would give up a little more land...

* Or, Israel waits till it has a partner in peace that will end the terror threat and negotiate a peace that probably annoys the hell out of both sides.

[edzontar]

28. Thanks for the measured response....

I know I am hard on you sometimes.

One thing I DO think is that terrorism has causes, which does not justify the acts themselves, but I really do think that hope could help DECREASE the terror and eventually end it, or almost end it.

Maybe I am too much of an optimist.

[Darranar]

30. There's a third possibility:

* dismantling settlements and withdrawing; the domestic situation of the Palestinians improves, terrorism has less popular support, and the new government of the Palestinian state can effecrively crack down on the terrorist thugs.

That's the more likely result, IMO.

[Darranar]

21. "Security"

Settlements are about as much for security as are suicide bombings.

[Saudade]

25. "Security"

Anyone who says that the settlements are about "security",

1. Ignores common sense;

2. Ignores all available evidence, which says exactly the opposite;

3. Knows nothing about the settlement movement historically. The Gush Eminum movement remains the ideology behind the settlements and its explicit purpose was to permanently expand Israel's borders to encompass all of "Greater Israel."

[Adalah]

14. The settlements are indefensible

as are the suicide bombings. Both deserve unqualified condemnation, and neither justifies the other.

[bluesoul]

15. Welcome

Agreed. Btw, welcome to DU Adalah! :bounce: :toast:

[Adalah]

16. Thank you

and greetings to everyone here.

[edzontar]

18. We need some sane vioces in these threads....

Welcome and good luck!

[drdon326]

23. Thank You, edzontar

.

[edzontar]

29. You are most welcome....and i really mean it.

Actually I do.