Using the Holocaust to Attack the Jews

[oberliner]

Dozens of cities held ceremonies last week to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day. The good news is that the dead were remembered. The bad news is that even as the Holocaust is becoming a fixture in the world's memory, it is also being increasingly used as a weapon against the Jews and the Jewish state.

For some, ironically, the acknowledgment of the Holocaust's reality has become a screen behind which anti-Semitism has gathered new force. The hard-core Jew-haters spent decades denying that the best-documented genocide in world history ever took place. That won them such derision that even many anti-Semites have begun to admit the reality of the Holocaust -- and now are hoping that simply by doing so, they can immunize themselves from the charge that they're anti-Semites in the first place. How can you be an anti-Semite, they figure, if you recognize the Holocaust?

But as some people who don't like Jews have found, it's worth acknowledging the Holocaust if you can then turn it into a cudgel against the Jews. And that they've done, in spades. According to this crowd, the Jews today have become Nazis. The Jewish state is now supposedly carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians. Jews, the haters say, have always been evil, and their evil is only growing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/30/AR2009013002770.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[baldguy]

1. Criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitic.

Ignoring & excusing Israels crimes is.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Did you even read the article?

I think if you did you would realize your concerns were addressed therein.

[oberliner]

3. That is what the article says

Of course, not all criticisms of Israel are the product of such bigoted logic. People of good will around the world are naturally shocked by the tragic and appalling deaths of Palestinian civilians, including those killed in the recent war in the Gaza Strip. Like any country, Israel can be criticized.

<EOE>

The article is focused on those who use the Nazi canard.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

Leftist bullshit propaganda.

[inthebrain]

15. Leftist BS propaganda?

Wait a sec.

Do you even know your left from your right on this issue?

Yeah, I've read a lot of attacks from anti semites on Isreal. It's real freakin easy to see those who are posing as leftists doing it.

My issue with Israel is the same as my issue with the PLO. They are both governments and governments themselves do not represent the people. The Palestinians and the Isrealis BOTH suffer from some real lousy freaking leadership. The solutions to those problems are not going to come from their leadership but the people.

Does Isreali government site the holocaust to abuse the palestinians?

Occassionally they do go too far. In no way do I think that means the holocaust never happened or that it was the fault of Jews. As a matter of fact, I don't see the Isreali Palestinian thing as a fight between Jews and Muslims. Just an issue of lousy leadership.

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Yes, leftist BS propaganda.

I know this can be confusing, but the far left can be just as bigoted as the far-right, they just aren't as honest.

"Does Isreali government site the holocaust to abuse the palestinians?" According to some left-wing rags and propagandists.

"Occassionally they do go too far. In no way do I think that means the holocaust never happened or that it was the fault of Jews." Huh?

"As a matter of fact, I don't see the Isreali Palestinian thing as a fight between Jews and Muslims. Just an issue of lousy leadership." Both are simplistic, it is much more that just one or both of those issues.

[baldguy]

24. Civilized humans don't check a victim's religious affiliation before feeling compassion for them.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Civilized posters don't make wild accusations without any proof.

[inthebrain]

25. It is EXACTLY that

When both Palestinians and Isrealis decide to chuck their leadership the problem is solved. The people actually living their are just working class folks just like you and me.

The seeds for those two start a real social movement are already solidly planted. I got news for you, the Isreali leadership as well as the Palestinian leadership are both fucked. It's on both of their interest to keep this thing going and the people themselves have decided otherwise.

The leadership ain't suffering in this. It's the people.

It ain't the Isreali people bulldozing homes and it ain't the palestinian people themselves that make the decision to go on bombing runs. It the fucked up leadership.

And no, the "far left" does not come full circle with the far right. That's just a load of bullshit. I know exactly what you are talking about and those people are not leftist ie the 9/11 conspiracy theorists, Rense and the rest of those whackos.

They are attacking the issue FROM THE RIGHT and that makes them RIGHT WINGERS.

[Behind the Aegis]

30. You are confused.

Leftist rags and their subscribers are like the far-right, expect they aren't honest in their bigotry. "Rense" is not a leftist rag.

[inthebrain]

38. Nop, far from it

Leftist, especially FAR LEFTIST, look at how power (government) affects people. Not the rich and powerful but those living in ghettos.

I hate to bust your bubble on this but the Isreali government is shit just as is the PLO and Hamas. All of those whacko's benefit off of this conflict in money and power. A lot of it from our own intelligence agencies (Richard Behr had some interesting tid bits on how the CIA fuels both sides of conflict. Funny, you NEVER hear that mentioned DO YOU!!!) stirring the pot as well.

The ones hurting in this conflict are the working classes that are losing everything. Isreali citizens are getting ripped out of their own homes (By their own government mind you) for living side by side with Palestinians. The PLO wants them out as well.

Hmmm? I wonder, is it a benefit to Isreali citizens to have their homes taken away? How about the neighbors they grew up with that are Palestinians?

Yeah, the Isreali government is really fucking kind to their own people.

And the PLO and Hamas. Their leadership is fucking brilliant!!! They take advantage of people that are desperate so they can kill themselves. Even persuade the families that what they've done is heroic.

Both the PLO?Hamas and Israeli government do not want Isreali and Palestinian alike finding common class interest. Class wise they are both have much more in common than the fucking asshole leadership they both suffer under. The day comes when that happens you'll see the PLO/Hamas and Isreali government all sit down together for tea and crumpets.

Cause their days are both fucking numbered and will do anything to retain power.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Yes, sadly you are. Though given your posts, I don't think it is purposely.

I know how leftists look at the government and other issues; that isn't the concern here. The concern is the rampant bigotry disguised as something legitimate. You are off on a tangent for which I don't largely disagree.

[inthebrain]

46. I'm explaining to you, as what you would a term a "far leftist" how we look at the issue

of course you can tell me how I look at it.

Or that I'm wrong because you're so all knowing.

I've argued with plenty of fake leftists in my time. I know what they look like and what they sound like. I've seen most of it. A lot of it these days is getting thrown at Immigrant workers as if they are people we shouldn't see as having common class interest. The fake left would have us all blame all our economic and social ills rather than the real crooks behind the curtains (The capitalist pigs).

They try to sell it as "Economic Populism". Problem is that Nationalism is Nationalism just as a pig is a pig. You can dress it up all you like but most of us are smart enough to see through it.

Me personally?

I don't like talking about this shit because I don't want to fuel these anti semetic fuckers. But these fake leftists are easy to spot once you peek back their stances on other issues like an onion. Trust me on this, I've done it and it never fails.

A lot of us on the "far left" as you would call it, are very guarded about the Isreal Palestine conflict for the reason stated above. In many ways that's been our failing. Just as we've allowed the 9/11 whackos to hijack that issue (which is also become EXTREMELY anti semetic).

[Behind the Aegis]

48. I think you and I aren't that far apart.

Seems you are only upset that I said leftists employ anti-Semitism, which some of them do (take a look at some of the comments at DU and KOS). Sorry, but the "no true Scotsman" fallacy applies here. Just because they engage in bigotry doesn't mean they are suddenly right-wing.

[inthebrain]

50. I wouldn't call this place or KOs far leftist sites

Ko's was started by a guy who was a Reaganite.

This place freakin prides itself in how many right wingers they can bring over to there cause. The Democratic Party as a whole is hardly what i would call the far left. As a matter of of fact it's more for people who are moderate right/Progressive or liberal.

The far left mainly consists of Socialists, Anarchists and Communists. I am an avowed socialist.

This place is a haven for lots of right wing BS posing itself as "the far left". Trust me, as posters go I'm probably equally hated by everyone. In the same breath highly read at the same time because I tip their applecarts a bit.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Again, talking past one another.

I am not saying DU or KOS is leftist, I am saying they post here and more than a few are bigots. And, trust me, just because you may think someone is an anti-Semitic bigot or an anti-Israel bigot, do not for a moment think they aren't also capable of being a leftist.

Also, sorry to burst your bubble, of sorts, but until now, I don't ever recall reading anything you have written or "crossing swords" or agreeing. Maybe you aren't upsetting as many applecarts as you may think. Maybe you aren't as hated as you may think.

[inthebrain]

54. I pop in here for stretches at a time

I have a few threads in my journal as evidence. Run my ID by a few of the Bidenites and you'll get few charming remarks as well.

And no, I would'nt call many of the people you are posting with here leftists. There are two reasons for this;

1) It's real easy to lie about who you are and what you're intentions are on the internet.

2) A lot of these people I've argued with on other sites. They would post bullshit from Rense, Alex Jones, Vdare and others if they were allowed to by the site. They do in other places they post and are VERY fucking right wing. A few em voicing support for Ron Paul and Pat Buchanaan.

So I know who a lot of these people are and what their game is.

[LeftishBrit]

57. Very interesting posts

And I agree with all or most of what you have to say, and a lot of it is stuff I've been trying to say too! I don't think I am 'all knowing' (or that anyone else here thinks they are), but here is my perspective.

I think that antisemitism and other forms of xenophobia are *right-wing* , not left-wing. I have at times been accused of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, but I think this is not an appropriate analogy: being a Scotsman does not intrinsically describe a person's attitudes or beliefs, whereas being a left-winger does. And beliefs that permit scapegoating and trampling on others because of their race, religion or ethnicity are in essence not left-wing.

It is possible for a left-winger to be antisemitic, but it is usually in spite of, not because of, their left-wing views. Antisemites can accept a largely left-wing viewpoint and yet unfortunately fail to shed their antisemitism. Admittedely there are people whose left-wing affiliations lead to their becoming influenced by old Soviet propaganda, some of which is distinctly antisemitc. But a lot of 'left-wing antisemitism' involves left-wing collaboration with groups and people who are far from left-wing, but happen to oppose the war and/or the Bushies. One such group is the conspiracist '9-11 whackos' whom you reference. Others include those who oppose the Iraq war for other than left-wing or humanitarian reasons. These include Muslim Right religious groups, and - to a far greater extent in the West - xenophobic isolationists like the British Nationalist Party, LePen, and Pat Buchanan. RW-libertarians such as Ron Paul are fairly closely related to the latter. Many such right-wingers are antisemitic; indeed it tends to be one key part of xenophobic isolationism. Some people who go on DU and other left-wing sites are right-wingers who just happen to oppose Bush and the war. Others are genuinely left-wing or liberal, but are influenced by their right-wing associates in the anti-war cause.

I have posted in a few other threads that, because the ruling establishment in American and thereby among its allies has been so hard-right in recent years, there has been a tendency at times to equate all anti-establishment sentiment with leftism. There is and has always been a significant anti-establishment Right: which includes the hard CT-ers; the xenophobic isolationists; and the right-libertarians. They can sometimes attract progressives to their cause because of their anti-establishment message, which increases their power and danger (cf Oswald Moseley for example). The anti-establishment Right always becomes more active in hard economic times. Add to that that the 'establishment' has suddenly become more liberal, and that the current American president is a particularly obvious target for such right-wingers' hatred (black *and* an international upbringing *and* an intellectual, he's actually written books!) and it's fairly obvious that these right-wingers will be attempting to recruit vigorously. It is particularly important that progressives should not give them *any* aid and comfort even when they appear to be anti-establishment.

[baldguy]

32. Next he'll say that left-wingers who criticize Israel are *really* right-wingers (meaning Nazis).

And right-winger apologists for Israel are really the good left-wingers.


The arguments devolve from there....

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[baldguy]

37. Rabid? No, I'm actually rather rational.

When I see a murder, I call it murder.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. Ummmm...no. Your posts here and though out this forum and DU...

..betray your "rationality" on this topic.

[oberliner]

9. Do you feel that Israel is carrying out something akin to the Holocaust against the Palestinians?

That seems to be what you are suggesting with that question.

[baldguy]

23. Corralling them in concentration camps, collective punishment

Systematically destroying their religious & cultural institutions, stealing their property & redistributing it to loyal Israeli families... The old saying is if the shoe fits...

[inthebrain]

51. Israel is not setting up concentration camps and they are also taking land from their own

loyal citizens as well.

You sound like someone who has no idea what they are talking about when you post this nonsense.

Kinda like Alex Jones.

[Jim Sagle]

45. Got ANY evidence for that?

[cali]

53. I'd call what you're doing

here, malicious/ignorant/hateful. Simple as that. The comparison is spurious.

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Duh.

"Ignoring & excusing Israels crimes is." Do you know the meaning of anti-Semitic? It would appear you do not.

[EFerrari]

4. And what a massive exploitation of the Holocaust this piece is. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Did you actually read it?

[EFerrari]

8. Yes, I actually read it. Disgusting.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. Did you understand it?

[oberliner]

11. Disgusting?

What did you find to be disgusting about this article?

[EFerrari]

13. The author claims to be describing how the Holocaust is used

as a cover for anti-Semitism, in fact, as a vehicle of anti-Semitism and all the while, he himself is exploiting the Holocaust in this essay as a means to disallow dissent. I really don't care what this man thinks of me or of my opinions but for him to exploit that event for such a tawdry purpose is disgusting.

[oberliner]

16. How is he "exploiting the Holocaust" as a "means to disallow dissent" ?

He argues that "People of good will around the world are naturally shocked by the tragic and appalling deaths of Palestinian civilians, including those killed in the recent war in the Gaza Strip" and says that "Like any country, Israel can be criticized."

So there is no "disallowing of dissent" being suggested by the author of the piece at all.

The author is saying that people who make Holocaust related connections to Israel are wrong to do so.

One can disagree with that conclusion but I do not see how one can find that observation to be an "exploitation of the Holocaust"

[EFerrari]

19. The whole piece depends upon his use of the Holocaust to frame his opinion.

He is making a "Holocaust related connection" the underpinning of his argument.

[oberliner]

26. One cannot make an observation about other people exploiting the Holocaust without mentioning it

If one wishes to make a critical comment about how other people are exploiting the Holocaust, then one is going to have to actually make mention of the Holocaust.

[EFerrari]

28. He didn't mention it, he used it as the spine of his essay. n/t

[oberliner]

35. It is the topic of the essay

I do not see how it would be possible to express the opinions contained in this essay without that "spine". If he is going to make a claim, he is going to have to argue for why he feels his claim is true.

Edit: I'm seriously not seeing what it is you find to be "disgusting" here.

[EFerrari]

36. Exactly. And in trying support his claim that the Holocaust is appropriated

as a vehicle of anti-Semitism, he himself enacts the very appropriation he claims to critique.

This is not a stupid man. He knows exactly what he's doing.

[oberliner]

40. It seems like you are saying that no one can criticize those who make the Holocaust comparison

I do not see how it's possible to make such a criticism under the parameters you've laid out.

[EFerrari]

43. No, I'm saying that enacting what you criticize discredits your argument.

If Mr. Reich were in fact writing about the comparison as a vehicle of anti-Semitism, he would not need to opine on the veracity of leitimate critics of Israel or on the latest slaughter in Gaza. That's not his topic. He could stay with the many awful instances of this type of reference.

But he isn't doing that. And if he did, he wouldn't have been published. This essay is meant as a statement about the latest in Gaza and it was published for that reason. It's not an analysis of "how the Holocaust is used" at all. The Holocaust in this essay is merely a springboard for his politics.

[oberliner]

47. My take on the article

It do not think the piece is meant to be a broad general analysis of how the Holocaust is used. I think it is meant to demonstrate that the recent events in Gaza have resulted in the use of this comparison by people, some of whom are anti-semitic and are using this as a means of expressing that.

His claim is that some such people use the Holocaust to equate Israel to Nazi Germany in the context of recent events in Gaza. He notes that it is only a subset of critics of Israel who are doing this. He goes on to cite examples in support of that claim. He then notes that those making these comparisons are not necessarily anti-semites. He points out the genuine anger in the world over Israel's actions in Gaza.

He does conclude, however, that many of those who use the Nazi comparison also include specifically anti-Jewish comments and rhetoric with those criticisms, and thus can be considered anti-semitic.

I think you are reading things into the article that were not intended.

[azurnoir]

12. While it may be offensive to compare the Israeli actions in Gaza

to the Holocaust, it is also just as offensive to broad brush all that do tht as Jew haters and to once again try to conflate Jews, all Jews with Israel as he does here as one of our posters here is fond lately of pointing there are also Israeli Arabs.

But as some people who don't like Jews have found, it's worth acknowledging the Holocaust if you can then turn it into a cudgel against the Jews. And that they've done, in spades. According to this crowd, the Jews today have become Nazis. The Jewish state is now supposedly carrying out a Holocaust against the Palestinians. Jews, the haters say, have always been evil, and their evil is only growing.

[Behind the Aegis]

14. Missed this part did ya?

"Of course, not all criticisms of Israel are the product of such bigoted logic. People of good will around the world are naturally shocked by the tragic and appalling deaths of Palestinian civilians, including those killed in the recent war in the Gaza Strip."

[EFerrari]

18. And what a manipulation that is.

"Of course, not all criticisms of Israel are the product of such bigoted logic."
Read: Most of them are, the rest are fringe.

"People of good will around the world are naturally shocked by the tragic and appalling deaths of Palestinian civilians"
Read: The "deaths" of Gazans are tragic and appalling, that is, inevitable. He doesn't say "killings" but "deaths" as if these people died in their sleep.

"including those killed in the recent war in the Gaza Strip."
Read: Let's huddle all those dead and wounded into a clause. And, what "war"? There were no two matched armies in conflict, but an invasion and slaughter of a civilian population.

What a disgusting ass this man is. The WaHo should be ashamed of itself.

[Behind the Aegis]

21. The only manipulation is yours. The shame all yours.

The only thing that is "disgusting" is how another leftist propaganda tactic has been exposed in the light of day. Though, you did a great job at trying to protect something you have used by your creative (and vile) manipulation .

war
Pronunciation: \ˈwȯr\
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle English werre, from Anglo-French werre, guerre, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse
Date: 12th century
1 a (1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): state of war b: the art or science of warfare c (1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war
2 a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> c: variance , odds 3

Notice none of the definitions match your propaganda definition of "war."

[EFerrari]

27. 1 a (1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations

Good night, BTA.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. See, you were confused.

This c-n-p still doesn't support your bullshit post.

[oberliner]

34. The former director of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is a "disgusting ass"?

I would respectfully disagree with that assessment.

Your "analysis" of that paragraph is especially odd.

You chide the author for saying "deaths" rather than "killing" even though he refers to their being "killed" in the very next words of that same sentence (which you cite).

You then express disgust that he refers to the actions in Gaza as a "war" even though every news outlet, from the AP to Reuters to Al Jazeera to Iran's Press TV uses that same terminology.

[EFerrari]

39. Yes, he is disgusting for the reasons I have explained as plainly as possible.

Note to Mr. Reich: You should not use the Holocaust to forward your political argument. It should be beneath you.

And sentences happen over time and space, so it does matter that he refers to "deaths" as if these dead people were spirited away by angels and then, confines the actual killing to a clause. That's Poetics 1A.

And that the invasion of Gaza is described as a war doesn't make it one, does it?

[oberliner]

44. I guess people can draw their own conclusions

I'm sorry that you've concluded that this man is a "disgusting ass".

[Behind the Aegis]

49. It's "disgusting" when a tactic is exposed.

[inthebrain]

55. You know what I'm seeing here?

You don't like the author using the Holocaust and talking about it in terms of jews being the victims. I think the author made some rather poignant distinctions here that you failed to pick up on. Mainly due to cognitive dissonance.

Dude, the Holocaust was a real event and Jews, Commies, Socialists, Gypsies, trade unionists and gays were the victims. Primarily it was jews because all those others mentioned were propagandized as either vehicle of the Jews to poison German society or a threat to the blood.

None of this is occuring in Isreal. Nor are their death camps set up.

So comparing the situation in Israel to the events of the Holocaust is fucking stupid.

There are palestinians, xtians, muslims and even atheists living in Isreal. If the comparison were true all those people would be sipped off of Isreali land and put into tiny swaths of land called ghettos. That's not happening so yes, the author is right, the comparison doesn't fit.

And yes there are tons of Jewing hating dickwads using the holocaust to attack jews as if THEY WERE responisble for it so they could have Isreal in some ridiculous conspiracy theory. This whole thing being a ridiculous plot for the Jews to take over the world.

Yes, those people are anti semetic Nazi trash.

[azurnoir]

20. Nope I did not miss it

but I was speaking of those who make a specific comparative criticism of Israel being broad brushed not any critic

[Behind the Aegis]

22. What?

[struggle4progress]

56. For a good illustration of what OP discusses, see top of following thread:

“Remove My Grandfather’s Name from Yad Vashem!”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x255933

One can and should remember the Shoah with grief and sorrow. The Nazi genocide is perhaps the lowest point in human history: a highly civilized nation, once the leader of the world in science and indisputably a great cultural center, collapsed into a form of industrial barbarism and applied modern factory methods to extermination. There are other genocides in human history that one must also remember with grief and sorrow -- but in some sense the other genocides really are different from the Shoah: in the German catastrophe, almost an entire nation allowed great crimes to be committed for many years -- reacting with only sociopathic rationality and emotional indifference. It is not merely the duty of a particular religious group, but a duty for anyone of goodwill, not to forget the victims and those who actually tried to save lives

There is, in my view, quite a lot to dislike about Israeli policy. But even if one reaches the conclusion that Israel is committing war crimes in Gaza, it is a mistake to confuse events in different times and places, to confuse a nation with a religion, or to confuse a citizen with the acts of the government. To be Israeli is not synonymous with supporting the Israeli government's foreign posture; to be Israeli is not synonymous with being Jewish; and to be Israeli is not synonymous with being a Shoah survivor

Sloppy, dishonest, or knee-jerk thinking cannot end the conflicts of the Middle East: in fact, such thinking only serves the interests of those who want perpetual war