Israel says troops 'reasonable' to kill Gaza girls

[bemildred]

Israel has admitted that one of its tanks killed three girls whose father's cries on live television shocked viewers in the final days of the Gaza offensive, but said the action was "reasonable".

An Israeli army (IDF) investigation found that two tank shells were fired at a building housing the apartment of Izz el-Deen Aboul Aish on January 16 - two days before the end of its assault on the Islamist-ruled Gaza Strip.

"Investigations were held on many levels ... the conclusions found that two shells were fired from an IDF tank resulting in the death of Dr Aboul Aish's daughters," a statement said.

It was the first finding from four investigations launched by Israel into allegations involving civilian deaths in Gaza, which numbered about 700 out of a total of 1,300 killed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/05/2482695.htm?section=justin

[democrank]

1. "Reasonable" to kill children.

How utterly sickening.

[atreides1]

4. Yes

As long as the intended target is nearby. Like when the USAF bombed a residential area because they thought that Saddam would be in the area for a meeting.

Unfortunately he didn't show, but the civilians who were killed got those pilots medals for doing such a great job.

But you're right it is sickening.:(

[atreides1]

2. If that's reasonable

Then targeting places where military reservists might live is just as reasonable!

Gee, where in Israel would you find a military reservist?

[aquart]

3. Innocents die in war! News at 11!

REALLY disingenuous to believe there would be no repercussions for the rockets, the smuggling tunnels...

Hamas doesn't believe Israel has the right to exist. Israel returns the sentiment. But you're shocked! Shocked that children will die because of it.

Why didn't they get the children out?

[regnaD kciN]

6. But, of course, a single ISRAELI civilian dying in war...

...is a massive crime against humanity that mandates that a thousand or more nigg Ay-rab civilians die. It's an even trade-off, right?

:puke:

[atreides1]

7. Why don't the Israelis

If they don't want their children to be targeted then shouldn't they follow your advice as well.

That way it'll just be the adults trying to kill each other.

[Idealism]

8. Get the children out? Where?

Israel won't let any pass through the blockade, unless very near-death, and even then its an iffy proposition.

So you think it is acceptable to slay children, among other civilians, because of what an elected government (that these children obviously did not even VOTE for) does? You justify Israel killing 700 civilians out of 1300 casualties because why again?

[cboy4]

9. Because Hamas loves using children as human shields.

Hell, they position rocket launchers between school buildings and wire school buildings as booby traps.

What wonderful, wonderful humans. :puke:

[Stellabella]

12. Yeah. That's the reason.

NOT. If Israel wasn't dropping cluster bombs and white phosphorus, those children wouldn't have been killed no matter WHERE they were.

My God.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shaayecanaan]

17. Fact check

Hell, they position rocket launchers between school buildings

when did they do this?

[cboy4]

19. The helicopter and fighter jet FLIR imaging is available

on the internet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LGubwghyEw

It's amusing that you're apparently shocked Hamas would do such a thing.

[Idealism]

42. You do know that the IDF admitted to using old footage right?

They tried to claim militants "fired from inside a school," after they hit a U.N. school, then they released a video on their YouTube channel that showed militants supposedly around a school compound, only to later admit that the video was over a year old.

Their credibility is suspect, at best.

[cboy4]

43. Well let me accept your argument for just a second.

What difference does it make that the video might be a year old?

It still points out Hamas' cowardly tactic of positioning rocket launchers around civilians.

[Idealism]

44. No, it pointed that militants "were around a school"

The case of having rocket launchers around civilian areas has not been reported that I have seen, although there is ambiguity in proximity. How "near" is near? Gaza is a heavily populated strip of land, there are bound to be weapons "near" civilians. Have any news articles about the events?

[cboy4]

46. The video, that I linked, showed a rocket launcher between

two school buildings.

Why do you find it so hard to believe that militants -- key word: militants -- would place rocket launchers next to schools in order to draw a strike from the IDF?

Instant P.R.: Big bad Israel bombs school.

These are the same people who have no trouble strapping explosives around their bodies and blowing themselves up on buses.

It's sickening how many people apologize for them.

[Idealism]

47. And like I said, that is probably an old video

So the IDF will bomb schools because they had proof from two years ago that there were rockets outside?

Even when UN officials thoroughly denied militants to be there? Then the IDF said it was a "mistake," yet you still see them faultless... odd.

[cboy4]

48. Good, we're getting somewhere. You admit that Hamas

positions rockets outside of schools.

I'm drawing the face of Hamas, while you're out in left field arguing war operations.

And I never said Israel was "faultless."

They should not have hit the UN school and they should not have hit the UN storage building.

See, I can admit fault.

But it's a different story for Hamas apologists who feel their warriors can do no wrong.

[Idealism]

50. I don't know of any Hamas apologists

There are Israeli apologists, some Zionists, perhaps a few anti-Semites, some disgusted that their tax dollars are fueling repression, and some who are against violence and war anywhere.

There are no Hamas apologists here.

That being said, there are faults everywhere to be found. Personally, I am an equal-opportunity criticizer; both sides have severely fucked up, and both sides leadership should be jailed and tried for war crimes.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

91. "There are no Hamas apologists here."

Incredible, truly incredible

[Idealism]

92. You disagree?

If so, who do you think qualifies for this new category?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

93. Its scarcely a new category

and the list of those who have posted here that would qualify is lengthy

[Idealism]

94. I think you misinterpret those critical of Israel as being Hamas supporters

You can condemn one side without enabling the other, it isn't a zero-sum game.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

95. I understand the difference quite well

but there are clearly those here who believe that Israel can do nothing right, correct, or moral and that Hamas is basically blameless.

[Idealism]

97. I wouldn't label them "Hamas apologists"

More precisely, I believe that type of behavior to come from an anti-Semite, which I believe I included in my list of character descriptions here.

[Chulanowa]

52. And israel slaughters unarmed refugees

You want to play blame-game pingpong? Because we can do that for a good long while, all the way back to the beginning, with Jewish Militants raping arab women, murdering UN ambadssadors, and blowing up bridges and british mandate government buildings. Yes, let's go to the beginning, Cboy, to the proud Israeli national heroes of the Stern Gang

[pelsar]

59. actually the arabs "lose" if you go back....

killing unarmed jewish farmers in the 20s' was when it all started (a bit earlier than that actually)

now your going to have a hard time excusing that (oh and dont forget that many of the arabs living there themselves were immigrants to the area....)

go for it....

(another tidbit..it was the jews that were called "Palestinians")

[Chulanowa]

85. Well, in all honesty, "Palestinians" was anyone living there

Which in Roman times was Jews, yes - as well as Christians, Buddhists (yes, Buddhists), Christians, Greek, Egyptian, and Roman cultists, Zororasterians, Europeans, Asians, Semites, and Africans. Palestine was one of those places where everyone lived, sort of like a modern New York City, or a 14th century Samarkand. Going to have to do better than that

Unarmed farmers? You mean the militant squatters encouraged to move illegally to the British Mandate by racist nationalists who had driven Arabs (as well as native Jews and Christians) off the land in the first place? They might have been unarmed when they were plowing the field, but they sure as hell weren't when they stole said field.

And you're right. I can't excuse it. Killing is killing, after all. Doesn't mean I can't sympathize. Big difference though... those pissed-off Arabs didn't become Palestinian national heroes, given state funerals, tearful eulogies, etc. None of those Arab murderers rose to a position of respect in government, based on their murders - As Rabin and Sharon both did.

The majority of Palestinians - those in the West Bank, and a fair number in Gaza, have remained loyal to the Fatah party and its promises of peaceful reconciliation. Meanwhile Israelis are clamoring over which party promises the most abuse towards Arabs. Do we want Likud, with its dedication to preventing the existence of an Arab state west of the Jordan River? Do we want Labor, with its promises to steal even more Arab land for religious fanatic colonists? Or do we want Yisraeli Betinu, which promises vast military operations against the Palestinians and a total mangling of their territories in order to assure ethnic hegemony in greater Israel while threatening to nuke Tehran?

Hamas has nothing on the fuckers running Israel, and the Palestinians have nothing on the motherfuckers voting for those Israeli parties.

[pelsar]

96. try learning some real history.....i doubt it will change your mind, but....

at least when your write posts you wont mangle it:

the early zionists were farmers, bought their land legally through the legal system of the day.....just like any "brown/black/minority" buying a house in white neighborhood. I understand you might not like the motives of the zionist/black/etc as he moves in, or what comes next (they bring in their friends and change the demographics), but there was nothing illegal about it....and shooting/threatening at them is considered a bad thing. Only then did the jews organize in an armed way...After the initial killing-got that?

here i'll give you summary:

jews buy land legally>>, jewish farmers farm land>>, jewish farmers get killed by arabs>> jewish farmers organize and fight back

and a small history lesson: those "pissed off arabs"...i think your trying to say the "locals" except that many of themselves were immigrants, owned no land and just didnt like the new neighbors, and were "inspired to kill them by the local arab leaders.

your argument will probably be that the turks/brits had "no right to sell that land"....except that those were the laws of the day and the jews did nothing wrong legally or morally...so try a different route
_____________

thats all for history lesson number 1.

now you'll have to find a way to mangle it, the only problem is to do so, is either to make up some facts or at best, ignore it......which shall you do?

and small history lesson 2: if you read the papers of the early 20th century, the word Palestinian mean the jews living there (just a fun fact), not the arabs, not the christians, just the jews.

[delad]

101. you should consider being a comedian

certainly not a historian. Your oversimplified history of land purchase aside, a newspaper in Arabic established in Jaffa c1911 was called 'filistine' and referred to arabs in palestine as palestinians. This does not prove who was called what but it most certainly indicates how people imagined themselves.

Furthermore, your claim that the arabs involved in killing jews were immigrants and merely racially motivated is utter bollox. There were many arabs who were made homeless and landless through questionable land purchases.

Finally, your attempt to paint all jewish land purchases as entirely 'legal' and legitimate displays your lack of knowledge. there is no question that some of these purcheses were legal and above board but there is an adequate amount of documentary evidence that indicates not all were.

[pelsar]

103. i suppose if you dont like history....you can always make it up....

a simplified version?..yes it was, given that 1,000s of pages have been written on the subject i just highlighted the core of it.

as far as my claim of the arabs being immigrants....is that what your contesting?....(not a good idea the Palestinians post of the period is pretty clear about arabs immigrating to the area.

my claim is simple, that the attacks and riots on the jews were infact racially motivated and not one of farmers being thrown off their land and replaced by jews (though no doubt this happened). The rioters being city folk (not losing their land, arab immigrants and other hot heads drunk on "nationalism" and hatred. How else are you going to explain the city riots (no farmers there) and other killings of unarmed jews.......


but the most interesting part is the land purchases....perhaps a link to the illegal land purchases (something....). I have no doubt that some of the owners were probably swindled, etc, but the core was legal and above board....(or is that now a bad thing....)
-------


and the paper?....got a link?

[Idealism]

108. You want a paper on land purchases? Here you go

http://www.envplan.com/abstract.cgi?id=d402">From Arab land to 'Israel Lands': the legal dispossession of the Palestinians displaced by Israel in the wake of 1948.

Received 7 February 2003; in revised form 29 July 2003

Abstract:

In this paper we examine the Israeli government's use of law to institutionalize the dispossession of Palestinian Arabs displaced by the 1948 war and trace the legal transformation of their land during the formative years of Israel's land regime (1948 - 60). This legal transformation facilitated the expropriation and reallocation of formerly Arab land to primarily Jewish hands and was therefore a central component of the legal reordering of space within Israel after 1948. Based on close examination of Israeli legislation, archival documents, Knesset proceedings, and other sources we delineate a 12-year legislative process consisting of four phases, each concluding with the enactment of major legislation. The process was led by senior and second-tier Israeli officials, and the result was the construction of a new Israeli legal geography. The culmination of the process was the integration of appropriated Arab land into the country's new system of Jewish-Israeli 'national land' known as 'Israel Lands'.

Let us keep in mind this paper is before the latest instance of Palestinian dispossession: The Jewish National Fund Law of 2007, that was submitted by an nutjob MK Uri Ariel (National Unity/National Religious Party). Here is some highlights of the racist http://adalah.org/features/land/kkl-law-jul07-en.pdf">bill:

"Despite whatever is stated in any law, leasing of Jewish National Fund’s lands for the purpose of the settlement of Jews on these lands will not be seen as improper discrimination.”

“For the purpose of every law, the association documents of the Jewish National Fund will be interpreted according to the judgment of the Jewish National Fund’s founders and from a nationalist-Zionist standpoint”.

Any law that has to say that it is not "improperly discriminating" against a big part of the population that said law would rule over, is inherently lying or being deceitful.

[LeftishBrit]

62. Both sides do awful things and then make excuses for them..

I hope that this vicious circle of violence can be brought to an end!

[Chulanowa]

51. Same reason the people in Ashkelon don't just pack it up

You know, when Hamas kills and maims innocents (reasonably so!) in a time of war.

Besides, how often have Palestinans been able to go back home after fleeing the Israelis who were targeting them? Why not ask the men and women in the refugee camps, who have been packing thir keys and deeds around for sixty goddamned years, how that "evacuating" idea works out.

I hope your standards remain right where htey are next time some Israeli children Die. I want you to be all chuckles when some Jewish kid's rent limb from limb by a rocket or a suicide bomber. I really, really want you to shrug and say "Oh well, it's a war, what do you expect?"

Somehow, I expect you'll find the glimmer in your heart to be outraged at the death of an israeli child that you were unable to feel for a palestinian child. Or two. Or two hundred.

[Alamuti Lotus]

53. Would you be so callous and flippant about dead Israelis?

[subsuelo]

81. dont be silly - it's only excusable when Israel is doing the killing

[Alamuti Lotus]

90. This I know; I just like to hear it

Or not hear it, as the case may be.

[azurnoir]

54. Perhaps they should have given the children white flags?

do you think that would have worked or perhaps................

[Crunchy Frog]

72. I think I'll post the exact same thing.

Next time someone gets injured from one of Hamas's firecrackers. :eyes:

[regnaD kciN]

5. Hey, you gotta remember...

...they were only nigg Ay-rabs. Not like humans at all. :grr:

[cboy4]

10. Certainly the monsters who lob Grad missiles deep into

Israeli territory and use children and other civilians as human shields are not humans at all.

Excellent point.

We agree!

[iconicgnom]

78. So, that's your rationale for the slaughter.

In my opinion, people who hold up that kind of false and primitive/extremist rationale as justification for mass killings in an absolutely asymmetrical situation such as this are sociopaths, as guilty as the direct perpetrators of the crime itself.

[Chulanowa]

86. So Israelis aren't human?

'Cause I'm afraid Israelis are guilty of the same thing you're freaking out over. Lobbing bombs into Palestinian, Egyptian, and Lebanese territory. Using civilians (both Palestinians and Iraelis) as shields - such as making Palestinian prisoners walk at the head of door-to-door armed searches in Gaza, or locating military firing positions in the middle of kibbutzes during the war with Lebanon in 2006

Remember those little girls writing racist slogans on mortar shells destined to be fired into Lebanon, Cboy? Those are not only people who are subhuman by your standards, but they're also the reason you consider them to be subhuman - since the Israeli military was firing from within their town, ensuring any retaliation would (and did) kill civilians.

[Violet_Crumble]

102. I suspect cboy would play the Israelis are exempt card on that...

How it works is that people like that who can so easily dehumanise any other human being regardless of how much we oppose what they're doing (I now wait for the kneejerk accusations of 'Hamas supporter!' to come from this cboy person), are themselves more often than not guilty of indulging in massive bouts of generalisation where to them the entire Palestinian population is Hamas and the use of Palestinians by the IDF as human shields etc is not the work of monsters who aren't human beings (and btw, if you dare say that cboy will accuse you of being a nasty anti-semite!), but the work of brave men and women fighting to rid the world of the non-human presence of Hamas...

Ah, the irony of the image in cboy's sig-line is exquisite!

[azurnoir]

11. What a surprise the fox found himself innocent n/t

[Howardx]

18. criminal tries self, finds self innocent.

again. at this point its not even newsworthy just sad and pathetic.

[tideroller52]

14. Reasonable...yes

So what is Israel to do, sit and not retaliate for the rockets being fired at them from the middle of civilian sectors? Hamas knows what they are doing. They just don't care. Their actions and disregard for human life is what has caused this. You come after my family, and I will do everything I can to protect them. That is the same thing Israel is doing. Let the people of the West Bank turn on Hamas and throw their butts out!

[azurnoir]

16. OK

What is Hamas supposed to do sit and take it? Not retaliate when Israel bombs and shells their families? Why an entire family was killed just to get the father shouldn't Palestinians do everything they can to protect their families why Israels actions and disregard for human life is obvious reasonable yes?
Oh and the first butts that would get thrown out of the West Bank are the settlers unless of course that is who you consider to be people

[pelsar]

55. really dumb dumb argument....try NOT trying to kill israelis for a change

What is Hamas supposed to do sit and take it

how about.....NOT shoot those firecrackers, non lethal, dud rockets (more than 6,000, over the years into israel almost daily?

its really a stupid idea to keep on trying to kill Israelis almost every day for years.....(and have their supporters pretend they're not)

[azurnoir]

57. Well its a dumb argument to some

but lately it has been Fatah related groups shooting the rockets almst like there's something in it for them, Hamas people in Egypt are working on a cease fire while Israel says no but who knows perhaps that will change in week or so

[pelsar]

60. oh please....that concept died with arafat...

that "its them shooting and not us".......well if hamas cant control the shooting out of gaza then they have no business talking about a cease fire since they cant enforce it.......



or are you going to somehow argue (and if seen it done) that hamas can have a cease fire but it doesnt mean the other groups have to....but israels cease fire must include all groups.....

[azurnoir]

67. So it's Haniyeh's fault Abbas can't

control his own party? Unless that is perhaps as I said there's possible reward for not controlling the "militant" wing for Abbas. As to any agreements it will not be until after next weeks elections that we'll know if they are worth anything seeing as how the leading candidate says he will not abide by past agreements

[pelsar]

69. if Haniyeh claims he can negotiate a cease fire with israel...

for gaza, then yes, it is his fault if he cant control those in gaza....


let me understand: your actually claiming that hamas leader should be able to make a cease fire agreement with israel while knowing that they in fact cannot control the shooting out of gaza....and you would expect israel not to fire back no matter who is shooting at them since they have agreed to a cease fire.

did i get that correct?

[azurnoir]

70. I am not the claiming that

Hamas can or will enter in to an agreement that news is coming out of Egypt, along with Hamas agreeing to let Fatah along with others control the Rafah crossing so if Fatah is to be a presence in Gaza then they should be able to control their own people or is that you do not think Fatah should be held responsible for its own members actions?
Personally I would hope that this agreement goes through before next weeks elections

[pelsar]

74. i dont care about fatah in gaza....

if hamas makes an agreement with israel for a cease fire for gaza....and they control gaza, as they claim they do..then they are responsible....its that simple.

societies are responsible for those within their territory, as far as i know that is accepted through out the entire world, why do you think gaza is different?

[azurnoir]

76. Is Fatah the accepted leaders of the Palestinians?

Why do not think Fatah should be responsible for its own people especially when Hamas is held responsible for the actions of its people ion the West Bank

[pelsar]

84. defacto..

fatah rules the westbank...gaza is owned by hamas.

when americans go to france, france is responsible for what they do when they are in France..it doesnt make a difference if the americans are democrats or republicans. Thats how the world works.

[azurnoir]

98. Then why is Hamas on the West Bank held

responsible for what Hamas in Gaza does but yet the same is not true of Fatah?

[pelsar]

99. by whom? israel?

israel raids any group planning to attack......in the westbank abbas has a better control over his own people, attempts to control others, lets israel do some of his dirty work...and note: doesnt talk about israel "breaking a ceasefire". But abbas remains responsable, he just found a solution that works for him.

so if hamas does the same, that would be reasonable:

hamas doesnt shoot at israel, israel doesnt shoot back (no official cease fire)

hamas doesnt complain when israel takes out IJ or some other group.

[azurnoir]

100. So then Hamas was planning an attack

from a soup kitchen in the West Bank last summer not to mention a shopping mall, girls school ....

[pelsar]

104. you just changed the subject...

i believe it was is hamas responsible for all of those living and working within gaza......

you appear to say they are not.....and consequently any peace agreement/ceasefire agreement with israel cannot in fact be upheld by hamas

did i get that right?

[azurnoir]

106. Well then is Fatah reasposible for all Palestinians

on the West BanK? Let me guess because the West Bank is occupied Fatah is resposible for nothing including actions of it own members, how neat and clean and obvious

[Idealism]

73. The problem is this Pelsar

If Hamas rounds up the Fatah members who are shooting rockets into Israel, they either jail them or shoot them. It seems like shooting them, as of late, has been winning out. But then you have certain people on this board condemning Hamas for their actions (rightfully so) of executing them, but if Hamas lets Fatah fire rockets from Gaza and doesn't do anything- Hamas gets blamed for not restraining the Fatah members from doing so.

[pelsar]

75. such are the problems are the ruling party...

they wanted to rule....and so they are...and its up to them to figure out how to do it.....nobody else is going to do it for them...its not as if they're are solutions, they just dont like them.

its called responsibility...and that is not a problem

[Idealism]

77. Ruling Gaza is vastly different than ruling another land

Fatah had implicit backing from the U.S. and they couldn't implement the rule of law in Gaza. Whether due to ineptitude or corruption, that is up for discussion, but the clans still ruled Gaza. It is a lawless land, no matter who is the ruling party. Changing the culture of this without a well-equiped, well-trained, and well-paid police force is close to impossible. I just wish we could start trying to help these people instead of offering them sanctions, collective punishment, and death- then condemning them for not being peaceful.

[pelsar]

82. well gosh....its not a "walk in the park"...ruling gaza

and yes it could be because of Palestinian corruption, outside influence (hamas in syria, iran etc), the clans had quite a bit of influence (hamas got rid of a few) and yes they have a culture in gaza that is a bit tough to rule.....but all of that remains within the realm of excuses.....

the whole point of ruling is responsibility....thats how it works. You think hamas doesnt know whats going on in each neighborhood?....and no i dont believe its the wests fault that they are "not internally peaceful"....its the society and its rulers/leaders that shape and form their own society, if they're violent, then the address is hamas, they own gaza.

[Idealism]

88. Which is what I said, perhaps in different terms

I did not solely blame the West for Palestinians shortfalls, they are a part of why collectively Palestinian governments have failed, but not the whole reason. You think the Palestinians would be this unruly if Israel didn't oppress them? I don't.

[pelsar]

105. would they be "unruly' if they werent occupied.....

its obviously a "cultural thing"...other cultures have been occupied and oppressed far worse than the Palestinians and have not resorted to their means of showing disapproval.

its also clear to me that if there were no outside influences to "egg them on" this whole mess would have been solved decades ago.... There was an interview (cant find it anymore) by a hamasnik who said that they have no control over their youth and there is no question in my mind that no kid will sit in class why his classmates go out to throw stones at israeli tanks (westbank intifada II).....

but in the end, it comes down to the Palestinians lives, their own leadership and how they handle their problems. All the "help" has only served to continue and make their misery far worse than its ever been. The single bright spot they had was intifada I which was 100% homegrown grass roots movement and it moved things (recognition by the israelis in the street that its time for a Palestinian state and return of the territories)....

and then arafat got involved with his donar monies, "negotiations" and all those other outside influences started happening and screwed them once again....

in the end its up to the Palestinians to figure out how to control their population and work with israel..and trying to kill israelis has been shown not to be a very good solution.....and nobody else can do it for them.

and yes, life isnt fair....never was, probably never will be.....

[Vegasaurus]

83. Without Palestinians rule of law there will never be peace with Israel. nt

[Idealism]

89. Most likely not

I hope the world doesn't shun the next Palestinian government like they have others.

[Vegasaurus]

107. If the next Palestinian government wasn't made up of terrorists

whose whole goal is to annihilate Israel,

I think the whole world would welcome them with open arms (and lots of money).

[Idealism]

110. Israel didn't welcome Fatah

They treated Arafat the same way they treat Hamas now. And Israeli is holding to cards here, not the world.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

112. Unfortunately, that's been tried and failed.

Arafat tried making peace, but Barak wasn't willing to consider making the concessions that would be necessary for a viable Palestinian state.

Which is not to say that violence hasn't been tried and failed too, of course. The Palestinians choices are "continue to suffer, and try to make the Israelis continue to suffer" or "continue to suffer, and let the Israelis stop suffering".

Now, I think the second of those is the better option, but I don't think it's worth pretending that if the Arabs stop attacking Israel it will stop impoverishing and oppressing them and taking their land.

The Arabs should stop the violence because it's the right thing to do, but it's not especially in their interest to do so.

[madrchsod]

15. there is no morality in war because it is kill or be killed

the innocents are just collateral damage in war.

[iconicgnom]

79. This is a continuing war crime just as the US shock and awe of a disarmed Iraq was a war crime.

Bullshit that a vastly more powerful country can slaughter a virtually disarmed, powerless population, and justify it because "there is no morality in war".

[Judi Lynn]

20. Israel says troops were fired on before shelling home where Gaza doctor's girls died

Source: Chicago Tribune/Associated Press

Israel says troops were fired on before shelling home where Gaza doctor's girls died
By Associated Press
1:29 PM CST, February 4, 2009

JERUSALEM (AP) — The Palestinian doctor became a symbol of the Gaza offensive after he captivated Israeli TV viewers with a sobbing live report on the death of his three daughters in Israeli shelling. On Wednesday, Israel's military said its troops were fired on from nearby and called the mistaken identification of people in his house as combatants "reasonable."

~snip~
The 55-year-old gynecologist is a rarity among Palestinians, a Hebrew speaker who trained in Israeli hospitals.

Throughout the war, he brought accounts of war's tragedy to Israeli living rooms through TV interviews, making him for many the voice of Palestinian suffering. He often spoke of his fears for his eight children.

But on Jan. 16, he answered his cell phone, crying, and told Channel 10 that his house in the northern Gaza strip town of Jebalia had been hit by Israeli shells and his daughters, ages 22, 15 and 14, were killed.

Abu al-Aish is a known peace activist and an academic who studied the affects of war on Gazan and Israeli children.



Read more: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-ap-ml-israel-doctors-grief,0,7561291.story

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

21. That seems to be the standard excuse they use.

I think they've gone to that well a few hundred too many times.

[ShortnFiery]

22. The Power Players get the pleasure of historical revision, other historians will disagree. eom

[atreides1]

23. It really doesn't natter

Because some here don't think it's a bad thing and try to justify the deaths of those three girls. Usually by saying "Hamas did it first" or "they should have moved the children", as long as in their twisted minds this kind of thing can be justified.

The longer I stay here, the more I wonder what the real difference is between DU and FR.

Sometimes it's a very thin line between the two, sometimes!

[Downwinder]

28. Tribal solution.

Israel should be required to replace the children killed in Gaza. Choose children from Israel by lottery to do so.

[DaLittle Kitty]

30. Good Point! The Media Hides The facts...

example here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziSTY408h6k&feature=channel_page

[Orangeone]

49. I know!

There are a couple of DU'ers that are racist against Arabs...

[truebrit71]

24. Bullshit. If Israel told me the sky was blue I'd have to check first...

...they have become that from which they were rescued...and it is despicable..

This topic will be moving to the IP forum in 5....4....3....2...

[endarkenment]

25. Well they probably were fired on somewhere

I'm surprised they didn't claim the kids were being used as human shields.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

26. The compassion and empathy shown in this video is heartwarming.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS248US249&q=Dr.%20Ezzeldeen%20Abu%20al-Aish&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

:sarcasm:

[Danger Mouse]

27. Oh fuck no. Can't the fuckers even apologize for murdering children?

[Politicalboi]

29. Why should they when we don't

And neither makes it right. Israel is going to get us in a war that can't be stopped. We need to look at our relationship to Israel and stop sending OUR money to these monsters. Let them throw stones at their enemies. I would careless if tomorrow Israel was taken over by Iran.

[Danger Mouse]

32. I get pissed when I hear about us doing this shit, too.

And yes, we should apologize, for each and every innocent person we kill.
I'm sick of this crap.

[cboy4]

45. Well that would be really stupid of Iran to try considering

Israel has an estimated stockpile of 150-plus nuclear warheads.

The Damira plant is continuously manufacturing plutonium.

They won't be throwing rocks during your lifetime.

[Megahurtz]

87. No, because they think they're "God's Gift"

and that their Shit doesn't stink.

[bushmeister0]

31. This was the result of a country defending itself, certainly very proportionate.

Next time things will be different, though.

"Israel's prime minister threatened "harsh and disproportionate" retaliation after Palestinian fighters fired at least 10 rockets and mortar shells into southern Israel on Sunday, wounding three and raising the risk of fresh violence days ahead of Israeli elections."

http://telegraphjournal.canadaeast.com/rss/article/558362

Hmmm . . . 10 rockets . . . what would be a disproportionate response to that?

If what we've seen since Dec 27 is proportionate then this ought to be a real display of purity of Israeli arms.

[Danger Mouse]

33. Yeah, those little girls will never fuck with Israel again.

That'll learn em.

[DaLittle Kitty]

34. Yes Israel Has The Proper Formula For "Educating" Their Adversaries err..Neighbors

:sarcasm: We MUST crack down on the "folks" over in Israel to whom so much of our taxpayer funds go and who to date have been accountable "nOT" to anyone or anybody! If the ISraelis cannot reform their agenda then WE AMERICA, should reform it for them by CUTTING them off at the well!

[Danger Mouse]

35. Seriously, I don't want my money going towards slaughtering defenseless children.

Enough.

[pyro858]

36. It doesn't matter what Israel says

There simply is no justification for their actions.

[ConcernedCanuk]

37. Israel's credibility and moral standards in warfare match the USA - gee - what a surprise

.
.
.

20 or 100 civilians killed for one bad guy?

"IT'S WORTH IT"

And yet

people still wonder why the USA and Israel are hated around the globe . . .

Us dumb people just don't get this "collateral damage" thing

we see dead and dismembered people "WHO HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THIS CONFLICT"

and their relatives that DID - were never a threat to North America in the first place

so they hate us for our "freedoms"

no

they hate us for our murderous ways..,

and I don't blame them

[Mari333]

38. Then the troops should have stayed out of Gaza

what a load of bullshite.

[Idealism]

39. This is an apology for the worst kind of violence

Despicable and reprehensible that anyone would defend the deaths of children.

[w4rma]

40. I wonder if someone with military power saw him on TV and decided to take out his family.

In the same manner that Prime Minister Rabin was killed by Israeli neo-cons who want domination, not peace.

[LeftishBrit]

61. He was killed by a religious lunatic. Most neocons are not religious lunatics..

though that's about all that can be said for them!

[iconicgnom]

80. bear shits in woods.

[Jefferson23]

41. The Israeli government doesn't care and they believe they are

better than Hamas, pathetic lunatics run that government and the good old USA right there to support them...what a world.

[delad]

56. the IDF will regurgitate

a preprepared response and the media (and we in the west) will forget about it. In fact most people will do more than forget about it, they will shove it down their Orwellian memory hole and when the violence erupts again (as it most surely will), Hamas will yet again be to blame. People will decry their reliance on violence and their inability to live at peace with their "peaceful neighbour".

Israel actions will again be placed upon a background of lies, half-truths, obfuscations and omissions. Its record in Gaza and Lebanon completely forgotten. Hamas' violence is placed in a context of irrational hate, suicide bombings and islamofascim. No mention of a brutal, decades long occupation.

Israel will 'respond' to an 'attack' from hamas. Very little - if any - mention of Israel's 'targeted killing' and colateral damage (if there is mention then it will be put in a suitable place, page 6 and a quarter inch of text). No mention of someone dying at a checkpoint because they lack documents to pass. No mention of the ongoing, state-backed, militarised colonisation/ population transfer. No mention of 'Jew only' roads. No mention of armed settler violence. No mention...

The language that is used reinforces specific, fabricated memes, a form of neurolinguistic programming if you will. But do not mention the unmentionable

[ProgressiveMuslim]

58. How does one deal with a gov't capable of those actions and that justification?

Pretty telling.

[Tripmann]

63. How easy to excuse and reason away

the deaths of little children when they are someone elses.

Disgraceful.

[GoesTo11]

64. edit: the headline has changed

Current headline: Israel defends killing of Gaza doctor's daughters

Actual quote using the word "reasonable".

"The IDF is saddened by the harm caused to the Aboul Aish family, but at the same time states that considering the constraints of the battle scene ... the force's action and the decision to fire towards the building were reasonable."


This is obviously not like soldiers saying "should we kill these girls or not? oh, let's just kill them - that's reasonable". That would be more like a Hamas' discussion, frankly.

[bemildred]

65. That is a cut and paste or what it was when I posted.

Headlines can and do change. Everything is ephemeral.

[GoesTo11]

66. Thanks for clarifying.

changed my post accordingly.

[Tripmann]

68. I was extremely careful to not imply the willful execution

of these girls. They are, however, dead regardless of my wording or the intentions of the IDF. Please remember also that prior to their deaths these children lived under siege conditions imposed by Israel and living in a prison almost definitely as refugess. We should also focus on the circumstance of their lives while discussing the circumstance of their death.

[Crunchy Frog]

71. If Israel does it, it's okay.

[Larkspur]

109. Reminds me of the Bloody Sunday British soldiers who slaughtered 16 Catholics

back in 1972. None of those soldiers were tried for murder and they were rewarded by the Queen for what they did on that tragic day. Justice still has not been served. Looks like Israel is taking cues from the British.

[Scurrilous]

111. Ridiculous. n/t