George Mitchell and the end of the two-state solution

[ProgressiveMuslim]

Israel's settlement growth means we have to find a different plan.
By Sandy Tolan
from the February 4, 2009 edition


Los AngELES - On the surface, the most daunting task facing US envoy George Mitchell in his trip to Israel and the Palestinian territories is strengthening the Gaza cease-fire, and helping Gazans rise from the rubble.

But actually, the super diplomat's biggest challenge, as he wraps up his first trip and lays plans for future journeys, lies in coming to terms with a grim and unavoidable fact: The two-state solution is on its deathbed.

Since the Six-Day War of June 1967, the two-state solution, based on the concept of "land for peace," has been the central focus of almost all diplomatic efforts to resolve this tragedy. But because of Israel's unrelenting occupation and settlement project in the West Bank, the long-fought-for two-state solution has finally, tragically, become unworkable. Consider:

•In 1993, when Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Palestine Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat famously shook hands on the White House lawn, there were 109,000 Israelis living in settlements across the West Bank (not including Jerusalem). Today there are 275,000, in more than 230 settlements and strategically placed "outposts" designed to cement a permanent Jewish presence on Palestinian land.

•The biggest Israeli settlement outside East Jerusalem, Ariel, is now home to nearly 20,000 settlers. Their home lies one third of the way inside the West Bank, yet the Israeli "security barrier" veers well inside the occupied territory to wrap Ariel in its embrace. The settlement's leaders proclaim confidently that they are "here to stay," and embark on frequent missions to seek new waves of American Jews to move to the settlement.

•A massive Israeli infrastructure to serve and protect the settlements – military posts, surveillance towers, and settlers-only "bypass roads" that allow Israelis easy access to prayer in Jerusalem or the seaside in Tel Aviv – has cut the West Bank into tiny pieces, fragmenting Palestinian life.

•To maintain separation between West Bank Arabs and West Bank Jews, Israel has erected more than 625 roadblocks, checkpoints, and other barriers – a 70 percent increase since 2005 in a land the size of Delaware, the second-smallest state. Israelis rarely encounter such obstacles, but Palestinians seeking to travel between villages and towns must seek permits, and even then, a short journey can take hours.

•Israel's "suburbs" in Arab East Jerusalem, home now to nearly 200,000 Jews, form a concrete ring, isolating the would-be Palestinian capital from the rest of the West Bank. It is therefore increasingly difficult to imagine how a Palestinian president would govern from a capital that is sealed off from the people of his nation.

These massive changes on the ground – the majority made since the initiation of the Oslo "peace process" – have, after 41 years, rendered the two-state solution all but impossible. Workaround "fixes"– land swaps, consolidated settlements, and networks of roads and bridges to funnel Palestinians under and around the Jewish West Bank presence – have become increasingly hard to imagine. The goal, after all, is a "viable, contiguous" Palestine, not one cut up by the visions of Israeli engineers in order to maintain an everlasting Jewish presence on Arab land.


http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0204/p09s01-coop.html

[theoldman]

1. There is a two state solution and it is up to the US.

We put the bite on Israel by not sending money. I am sure that the majority of other countries will support us.

[rateyes]

3. Bingo!

[bemildred]

2. It will take a civil war. Those settlers won't all go quietly. nt

[Vegasaurus]

4. Israel is not going to voluntarily have a civil war

We all know that.

There may be war imposed from the outside, but Israel isn't suicidal, and it isn't having a war amongst itself.

[bemildred]

7. Who said anything about voluntary?

You think civil wars only happen voluntarily? The settlers are nuts, many of them religious nuts. It's going to get ugly, and it has little to do with the Palestinians. All this jingo nationalism has it's drawbacks. The "New American Century" took a bit under 8 years.

[Vegasaurus]

8. The settlers may be nuts

but the government is not going to cause a civil war by attempting to move hundreds of thousands of them.

That would be a voluntary civil war.

Involuntarily, it will involve external force, and then Israel will band together, behind their settlers.

So, it wouldn't be a civil war at all, but a united Israel, against the external forces.

I could see that happening.

[bemildred]

9. Whatever you say. nt

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. Bingo. Why would Israel risk it? Will never happen. nt

[bemildred]

15. I don't think the present situation can persist forever either.

It's not stable as things are, and it's not getting better. The fact that the Israeli government will not willingly bite the bullet does not mean that they will not have to eventually bite the bullet.

[Larkspur]

20. Then the US needs to bomb the illegal Israeli settlements

What's good for the Iraqis and Taliban is good for the criminal Jewish settlers. If those settlers won't leave peacefully, bomb the crap out of them.

[Vegasaurus]

22. One thing about you Larkspur

is that you are about as U"'Progressive" as they get.

Promoting "bombing the crap" out of another people?

:wow:

Go post on FreeRepublic!

[oberliner]

28. That has got to be sarcasm

Someone who is so vehemently opposed to killing one group of civilians could not possibly be vehemently in favor of killing another group of civilians.

[Larkspur]

51. I'm just using the Israeli logic against them

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

[Crunchy Frog]

24. I think that would get the job done, and I would personally be in favor of it,

but I don't think it would be politically feasible. Simply witholding funds would probably accomplish the same thing, but I don't think that's politically feasible either.

[oberliner]

27. You are in favor of bombing the crap out of civilians?

That is rather shocking.

[Crunchy Frog]

30. I would give them plenty of warning before hand

and unlike the Gazans, they would actually be in a position to leave if they so chose.

In actual fact, I was engaging in a bit of hyperboly, but realistically, what do you do with people who are illegally squatting and cannot be persuaded to move in any other way? What happens to Palestinian families when they're kicked out of their homes, but refuse to leave? What happened to the Branch Davidians in Waco? What would happen to me if I illegally set up housekeeping in Mexico and refused to allow myself to be deported? Sometimes shit happens under these sorts of circumstances.

In reality, I much prefer the witholding of funds option, which would ultimately leave the IDF to clear out these settlements. It wouldn't really bother me a whole lot if the used the same degree of violence on the settlers as they would use on Palestinians in similar circumstances, but I would expect that they would mostly get treated with kid gloves.

It's a moot point anyway. The political will simply is not there. My preferred option now is to simply give everybody equal citizenship and equal rights. That way, nobody would have to be removed from their homes, but they could at least begin to introduce a bit of the rule of law into the whole enterprise.

[LeftishBrit]

26. It was NOT good for the Iraqis!

Should we really be advocating a return to/ continuation of the Bushie policy of 'if you don't like someone, bomb the crap out of them'?

Moreover 'bombing the crap' out of the Jewish settlers' would almost certainly mean 'bombing the crap' out of plenty of Palestinian bystanders.

ETA: Many of us here are criticizing Israel for responding to the rockets by bombing Gaza, because it involved so many civilian deaths. And yet you are recommending a similar action by the US. Or was that intended to be ironic (if so, you should use the 'sarcasm' icon)?

[azurnoir]

5. IDF has become well seeded with

ultra religious settlers as officers to forestall any evacuation of the settlements and it is these types the ultra religious ultra nationalistic that might try to egage in genocide if a one state solution were to try to forced, some of the ProIsraeli people here talk about a "bloodbath" if a one state solution was forced they simply never say it would be Palestinian blood

[Vegasaurus]

6. The bloodbath would be on both sides.

Israel will not agree to its own annihilation. Ever.

If a one state is imposed, it will be from the outside, by war.

Israel will fight that, and you know it.

Not just the settlers or ultra nationalists either.

But regular Israelis who aren't giving up their homeland without a fight.

[azurnoir]

10. BThe bloodbath would be as one sided as

the recent "war" in Gaza period

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. I can't understand why providing equal rights for all is equated with Israel's death.

I seriously don't get that kind of thinking. Israel can only be Israel if only Jewish Israel have the full complement of legal, political and land-ownership rights? If only Jewish Israeli can be full citizens?

[aranthus]

13. Because Israel only remains Israel if it stays Jewish.

France is only France if it stays French. It's not about equal civil rights. The war is about national rights of sovereignty. The Palestinians of the West Bank, Gaza and Diaspora can have equal rights in their own country. They don't have the right to come into Israel and rule over the Jews. This is very simple stuff, and has been gone over on this board ad infinitum, so I'm not sure what you don't understand. Let the Palestinians have their country, and let them allow the Jews to have theirs. How hard is that?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

14. I'd love for Palestinians to have their own country. The problem is that the gov't of Israel can't

seem to stop stealing land.

How can any sane person look at the facts and conclude that the gov't of israel has any intention of allowing 2 states? you can't.

So... shall Arabs be forever without political and human rights to ensure that Israel maintain a Jewish character?

I believe anyone who makes that argument is completely immoral and racist.

[aranthus]

17. I disagree.

I think that Israel could be persuaded to pull out of the West Bank if they thought that groups like Hamas wouldn't take over.

You state, "So... shall Arabs be forever without political and human rights to ensure that Israel maintain a Jewish character?" And you base that on the claim of land theft. But it's two different issues. Land theft I oppose. I also want the Palestinians to have their own state. But I don't think that the reason they don't have one is Israeli intransigence. The Palestinians have done a very good job convincing the Israelis that they are in this to destroy Israel, and a much less good job of trying to convince the Israelis that they have abandoned that goal.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Since when do occupied people have to convince their illegal occupiers that they are human beings?

What a bunch of crap.

I'm sure Israel and its supporters can find a million reasons to justify the ongoing suppression of millions.

They don't deserve rights
They haven't been docile occupy-ees
Blah blah blah

Whatever helps you sleep at night...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. All Israeli citizens have the same rights,Jew or non Jew

[IndianaGreen]

38. Not true!

Ask any Israeli Arab!

[ProgressiveProfessor]

40. I have...tell us what rights they think they do not have and then contrast that with the rights

not allowed Jews and other non-Muslims in Arab nations.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

47. You dodge the question, what rights do non-Jews not have in Israel?

Isreal is the most progressive and liberal nation in the middle east, whether we like everything they do or not. That is a legitimate point when discussing right of various groups in the region.

[sellitman]

53. What rights do Jews have in ANY of the Muslim countries that surround Israel.

They aren't even allowed in.

Your question isn't valid. Arabs are far better off in Israel than even in most Arab countries.

[Douglas Carpenter]

52. Only 3.4% of Arab citizens of Israel felt that the Israeli government treats them as equal citizens.

some opinion polls of Palestinian citizens of Israel:
"Among the Arab respondents, 76 percent described Zionism as racist."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=839029

Only 3.4% of the 500 Arab citizens of Israel polled by phone felt that the Israeli government treats them as equal citizens. Some 49% said the government treats them as second-class citizens and 24% as hostile citizens who don't deserve equal rights."

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1139395572629&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

"Two-thirds of Israeli Arabs were pleased with Hamas's win but even more believe the State of Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish and democratic state, according to a survey presented at a conference Thursday about the trends of the Arab voters at the University of Haifa.

But despite their claims of support for a Jewish state, "What they don't agree to is a Zionist state, meaning a state which has the right to preserve its Jewish majority," Prof. Sammy Smooha, one of three sociologists who made the poll, told The Jerusalem Post. "They accept there is a Jewish majority but not that the state has a policy and law of return to preserve and increase the majority."

------------

Polls of Israeli attitudes toward Palestinian citizens of Israel

"The poll showed that 75 percent of Jewish students believe that Arabs are uneducated people, are uncivilized and are unclean.
On the other hand 25 percent of the Arab youth believe that Jews are the uneducated ones, while 57 percent of the Arab's believe Jews are unclean."

This was poll was actually based on 1600 students at 22 high schools within Israel.

""The data was presented at a bi-lingual conference held in Haifa. The study, titled "Perception of 'the Other' among Jewish and Arab Youth in Israel" included 1,600 students studying in 22 high schools around the country.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3350467,00.html

-----

In another poll - Remembering both these polls refer to Palestinians who live inside Israel and hold Israeli citizenship -- people commonly refereed to as "Israeli-Arabs". A people who have certainly not been in a state of rebellion for most of the past 60 years:

"The poll presented Wednesday showed that 68 percent of respondents said they do not wish to live next to an Arab neighbor, compared with 26 percent who said they would agree.

Responding to a question about Arab friends, 46 percent said they would not be willing to have Arab friends who would visit them at their home.

Some 63 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab civilians as a security and demographic threat, and 34 percent of the Jewish public sees Arab culture as inferior compared to Israeli culture. Half of the population, according to the poll, is anxious and uncomfortable when hearing Arabic on the street.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3231048,00.html

-------------

[Vegasaurus]

57. And yet none of those poorly treated Arab Israelis

(or a small minority) would ever choose to LEAVE Israel, when a new Palestinian state is formed.

They know their lives are MUCH better in Israel than they would ever be under the theocratic boot of Hamas or of the PA.

[azurnoir]

16. I had a discussion with somone about somthing like that

a while ago here it concerned an OP that read something about IDF fighting for a Jewish cause and i asked what about nonJewish members of IDF, what is so wrong with just anything being an Israeli cause of course I got no no no it just can't be

[Raksha]

18. But Israel also wants a one-state solution, but not one imposed from the outside.

That's been the unstated goal all along, and should be obvious from the facts on the ground--the increase in the number of settlements, the settlers-only roads, etc. It's a one-state solution based upon the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, since a viable Palestinian state is clearly impossible now, given the conditions Israel has created/imposed. I doubt that the world stand by and allow that to happen.

The only viable one-state solution I can imagine (a non-theocratic democratic state in which all ethnic and religious groups have equal rights) would of necessity mean the end of the Zionist dream. And so, ironically, in its effort to fulfill itself, Zionism and Israel as we know it will either self-destruct or plunge the Middle East into a regional bloodbath more horrible than anything we've seen so far.

Until a few weeks ago, I was a passionate advocate of the two-state solution. Sadly, I have had to come to the same conclusion as the OP since the Gaza offensive.

[LeftishBrit]

21. The Israeli Right would want this; but there are others who want a two-state solution

I still think that is possible. Difficult, but possible. It will mean a lot work and expense in disbanding settlements and relocating and compensating settlers than if all these new settlements had ever been established. But if people want it: it can happen. The British Empire ended, after all; and that involved a lot more people. Germany was re-unified. Etc.

'The only viable one-state solution I can imagine (a non-theocratic democratic state in which all ethnic and religious groups have equal rights) would of necessity mean the end of the Zionist dream'

Yes - and also the end of the Islamist dream. And of the Palestinian nationalist dream. So there will be an awful lot of people who would not want it. And would use violence to prevent it happening.

It would be *great* to have a non-theocratic democratic state with equal rights for all; but it's not a practical possibility right now. There is no Middle Eastern state that has such a system that works; and only one (Lebanon) where something like that has even been attempted, but only resulted in long-term civil war.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

36. Spoken like someone who does not know the religious culture in Israel

The "ultra religious" AKA Hareidi are exempt from military service. For those what wish to serve there are two specialized unit that are set up to cater to them, including IIRC no women. There are orthodox jew who have no service exemption. They are in the service in numbers representative of the population. Most importantly, 90% of Israelis are secular.


Yes I have read the articles that support what you say. They don't pass the basic smell test.

[azurnoir]

49. Well perhaps you'll like this "scent " bettter

pelsar (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Mon Jan-26-09 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. some answers.....

Edited on Mon Jan-26-09 02:34 PM by pelsar
according to the stats there is more modern orthodox in combat/elite units than in years past, its now part of their upbringing......these guys dont go for the deferred service, that is the "haridi" the ultra orthodox. many of the girls, in the settlements, btw usually opt out for national service, get married (which cancels the service) and at the same time are far more extreme than their male counterparts (i have a pet theory that this is their only time to "rebel" because soon after they'll be married and be pregnant for the next 10 years....).

the whole atheists in foxhole thing is pretty personal, but the chance and luck on a battlefield does give rise to those thoughts for anyone and everyone....

and the rabbi thing?...they've been pulling those stunts for as long as i can remember......the difference is that the soldiers have a greater loyalty to their unit, to their commander than to some rabbi....this we saw during the pullout of gaza, very few actually listened to the rabbis who said "dont do it."

the reason these rabbis dont scare me, is because despite their attempts israel remains a secular society....and i believe (and pray) that it will remain such

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=254176#254597

and yes pelsar gives different and plausible reasons for the phenomena there are also the reasons give by Daniella Weiss in the 60 minutes interview which I am sure you've seen or read about

[Crunchy Frog]

23. I agree with that assessment. I no longer see how anything other than 1 state is viable.

To those who say that it means the end of Israel as a Jewish state, I say that it's too bad that Israel has made the choices that it has, if it truly has wanted to remain a Jewish state. It appears that "facts on the ground" have made that option non-tenable in the long term.

I hope that people will begin seriously looking into how this can be accomplished in such a way that it preserves a democratic system where the rights of everybody are respected and protected.

I am now very firmly on the side of equal rights and citizenship for all people living between the Mediterranean and the Jordan.

[oberliner]

25. Israelis and Palestinians both do not want this

It seems a bit odd to think that some outside entity ought to be able to impose a "one-state solution" on Israelis and Palestinians when neither want this to happen.

[Crunchy Frog]

31. Israelis want the land, and they want the people to go away.

THAT is not going to happen. I think the Palestinians are increasing coming to recognize that a state of their own is not a viable option. Under the circumstances, I think that they would prefer to have citizenship and legal rights rather than to not have them. It may not be what they would have optimally preferred, but it's better than what they've got right now.

[oberliner]

33. If you took the bones out it wouldn't be crunchy, would it?

Sorry - I love that sketch. I hope that's where your username comes from.

In any case, I think that some Israelis want that land, but most Israelis do not.

The two-state solution, along the lines of the Geneva Accord, is really the only way.

I think that with Obama and Mitchell getting involved, we can really see a sustained push to making this a reality.

It would be helpful if Netanyahu loses the election on Tuesday, and signs point to that being a strong possibility.

[Crunchy Frog]

34. Well, maybe you're right. I really don't see it myself, but

we'll see what happens.

The problem with the Israelis who don't want the land is that they seem to have almost no political influence that has any effect on actual policy. The policy in the last 4 decades has been absolutely inexorable. Nevertheless, we will see what Obama and Mitchell will do. Pretty much all we can do is sit back and watch and offer our own speculations and predictions of what will happen. You and I have come to oposite conclusions, but real events will be the only thing that ultimately matters, and that's not in either of our hands.

Care for a chocolate? The ram's bladder cup is very good. :9

[oberliner]

29. Palestinians want their own independent state

The majority of them support a two-state solution.

Less than 20 percent support a bi-national state where Palestinians and Israelis enjoy equal representation.

Doesn't that matter?

[Crunchy Frog]

32. Not going to happen. Israel has spent the last 4 decades

making absolutely sure of that. Since their own state is not going to happen, they should at least be able to have citizenship and rights within the only framework that ever will be viable in the region. It hasn't worked out that badly for the Israeli Arabs.

[oberliner]

35. Israel used to have settlements in Sinai

Israel withdrew all settlements from Sinai and the land was ceded to Egypt as part of a peace agreement.

Also, there used to be numerous settlements in Gaza and they are all gone now (with much kicking and screaming from the settlers).

[Crunchy Frog]

39. The West Bank settlements are VASTLY more extensive

than the Sinai or even the Gaza ones ever were.

As I posted before, maybe you're right and I'm wrong, we'll just have to see what happens.

[oberliner]

41. How do you feel about a land swap?

I think that you are right about the WB settlements, which is why I believe any final settlement will have to involve a one-for-one land swap with land inside Israel being turned over to the new Palestinian state in exchange.

[Crunchy Frog]

43. I'd have to learn more before offering up an opinion.

It seems to me like they're going for the choicest land in the West Bank. Are they going to swap it for crappy desert that Israel doesn't want anyway? Is it going to give the Palestinians a contiguous area? Would it be done in such a way as to strip Israeli Arabs of their citizenship? I just don't know what all the factors are.

[IndianaGreen]

44. Land swap = Jacob swapping Esau a pottage of lentis for Esau’s birthright.

As most of you already know, the real 'Bible' doesn't have chapters and verses in it, but the numbering scheme works well in pointing out significant biblical passages to people that take the mythology seriously, or for those that don't adhere to Lenin's dictum to keep religion a private affair.

Just as you have the ultra-zionists and their Xtian dominionist allies point to the Bible as justification for settlement expansion, keeping the whole of Jerusalem, and even ethnically cleanse the 'Greater' Israel from all non-Jews, there are those on the other side of I/P conflict that point to other biblical passages to illustrate their historical grievances at their oppressors.

The Book of Genesis shows the I/P conflict seminal event in which a momma's boy, Jacob, used subterfuge and cunning to cheat his older brother Esau of his rightful birthright and inheritance.

Genesis 25 (King James Version)

27 And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.
29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2025&version=9;

Genesis 27

1 And it came to pass, that when Isaac was old, and his eyes were dim, so that he could not see, he called Esau his eldest son, and said unto him, My son: and he said unto him, Behold, here am I.
2 And he said, Behold now, I am old, I know not the day of my death:
3 Now therefore take, I pray thee, thy weapons, thy quiver and thy bow, and go out to the field, and take me some venison;
4 And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.
5 And Rebekah heard when Isaac spake to Esau his son. And Esau went to the field to hunt for venison, and to bring it.
6 And Rebekah spake unto Jacob her son, saying, Behold, I heard thy father speak unto Esau thy brother, saying,
7 Bring me venison, and make me savoury meat, that I may eat, and bless thee before the LORD before my death.
8 Now therefore, my son, obey my voice according to that which I command thee.
9 Go now to the flock, and fetch me from thence two good kids of the goats; and I will make them savoury meat for thy father, such as he loveth:
10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.
11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:
12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.
13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.
14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved.
15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:
16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:
17 And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.
18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?
19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy first born; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.
20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.
21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.
22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.
23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.
24 And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am.
25 And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine and he drank.
26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.
27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:
28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:
29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.
31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.
32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau.
33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.
34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.
35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=27&version=9

Any Israeli proposal for a land 'swap' smacks of another of Jacob's schemes to put one over his brother Esau.

If there is to be a two-state solution, it can only work if Israel withdraws from every inch of land taken in 1967. I don't think the two-state solution is feasible, and perhaps it hasn't been in decades, but it served a useful purpose for those intend on grabbing additional Palestinian land and water sources.

[azurnoir]

45. From a year ago

Former Gaza Strip settlers move into new outpost in West Bank

Nine Israeli families have moved to a valley deep in the West Bank, setting down six trailer homes and promising Friday to bring more to the disputed area the Palestinians want for a future state.

The action - funded in part by a private U.S. group - is the latest Israeli settlement activity to anger Palestinians as peace negotiators try to reach a final agreement outlining borders. U.S. President George W. Bush hopes to get the sides to complete a deal by the end of the year.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/954698.html

Not sure when this is from as I can not find any date but todays on the article

More Israeli Jews favor transfer of Palestinians, Israeli Arabs - poll finds

Some 46 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens favor transferring Palestinians out of the territories, while 31 percent favor transferring Israeli Arabs out of the country, according to the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies' annual national security public opinion poll.

When the question of transfer was posed in a more roundabout way, 60 percent of respondents said that they were in favor of encouraging Israeli Arabs to leave the country. The results of the survey also reveal that 24 percent of Israel's Jewish citizens believe that Israeli Arabs are not loyal to the state, compared to 38 percent who think the Arabs were loyal to the state at the beginning of the intifada.

sraeli-Arabs pose a threat to Israel's security, according to 61 percent of the Jewish population, while around 80 percent are opposed to Israeli-Arabs being involved in important decisions, such as delineating the country's borders, up from 75 percent last year and 67 percent in 2000.

http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=140196&contrassID=2&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID

[IndianaGreen]

46. There will be a Jewish civil war if any Israeli government attempts to dismantle settlements

In order to ensure a Jewish majority in lands it controls, Israel plans to evacuate as many as 70,000 West Bank settlers, relocating them to the western side of the separation barrier. Israel depicts the move as a major concession, but Palestinians fear Jewish footholds like Maskiot will prevent them from being able to build a contiguous state on the evacuated lands.

<snip>

Another future Maskiot resident, Yossi Hazut, said he was settling in the Jordan Valley to help determine the borders of the state of Israel.

"I don't think there is even one Israeli who thinks that the Jordan Valley is not important," said Hazut. "God willing, many of us from Shirat Hayam will live in Maskiot."

Schneller, an architect of Olmert's West Bank plan, said Israel could move the separation barrier deeper into the West Bank to include Maskiot on the Israeli side.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/272651_mideast03.html

[ProgressiveProfessor]

48. You are being a talmudic reactionary...Israel removed people from Sinai and Gaza

[oberliner]

50. President Carter proposes a land swap

Carter:

I also recommend that enough land be given to Israel from what’s now Palestine to accommodate about half of the Israeli settlers, and that the land Israel gives to Palestine, as I discussed with Ariel Sharon in 2005, should be a corridor between the West Bank and Gaza.

http://www.forward.com/articles/15110/

[Shaktimaan]

54. you know how you can tell when a journalist has abandoned their objectivity in favor of ideology?

Whenever I see "tells" like this I have to chuckle to myself.

Israel's "suburbs" in Arab East Jerusalem, home now to nearly 200,000 Jews, form a concrete ring, isolating the would-be Palestinian capital from the rest of the West Bank. It is therefore increasingly difficult to imagine how a Palestinian president would govern from a capital that is sealed off from the people of his nation.

Oh my! Yes, however would a Palestinian president hope to govern from a capital that has some suburbs between it and the rest of the country? It's not just an obstacle, mind you... it's difficult to even IMAGINE how it could possibly be accomplished! (According to wonder-journo here.) To be fair, it does look like this ring of suburbs is far more substantial of an obstacle than I realized. I mean, here it is alternately described as "isolating" the capital and "sealed them off" from the rest of Palestine.

Seriously... SEALED OFF?

Articles like this make me sad. It is almost as though people just assume that the Palestinians are guaranteed to fail and are spending late nights dreaming up ways of not holding them responsible. But the people who would list something like this as an actual, bonafide PROBLEM for the Palestinian president clearly have less than zero faith in any potential Palestinian president's ability to govern his way out of a paper bag. This author is so utterly convinced of the Palestinians' inability to govern themselves that she finds it difficult to even imagine how the president would begin to govern his way around such an impediment. How awful is that? She can't even imagine that the Palestinian president knows how to use a phone.

When I read this I was immediately reminded of Berlin during the heydays of Soviet communism. Can you imagine someone saying of Germany, "How will they govern? Their capital is all cut off and there's this big wall and stuff! It's difficult to imagine them being able to govern under these circumstances."? Of course not. So why is something that would be such an absurd insult to the Germans seen as less so when said of the Palestinians? Why do so many of the same people who are supposed advocates for the Palestinians the very ones who speak of them as though they're incapable of handling the smallest problem on their own?

[Violet_Crumble]

55. The answer is: Their articles would read like yr posts?

Oh my! Yes, however would a Palestinian president hope to govern from a capital that has some suburbs between it and the rest of the country? It's not just an obstacle, mind you... it's difficult to even IMAGINE how it could possibly be accomplished! (According to wonder-journo here.) To be fair, it does look like this ring of suburbs is far more substantial of an obstacle than I realized. I mean, here it is alternately described as "isolating" the capital and "sealed them off" from the rest of Palestine.

Seriously... SEALED OFF?

And what harmless little euphemism would you prefer to use for cutting a capital city off from the rest of the country? But if you have no problem with a capital being cut off from the rest of the country, then surely you wouldn't have a problem if it's Israel that's cut off from Jerusalem?

[Shaktimaan]

56. Ask me if I could imagine them governing under those circumstances.

Should an Arab suburb ever "seal off" Jerusalem from the rest of Israel you can remain confident that my powers of imagination won't fail the knesset in their hour of need. I'll even loan them my own phone, indefinitely if need be.