'The Jewish majority should be afraid'

[Emit]

'The Jewish majority should be afraid'
The Israeli-Arab town of Umm al-Fahm is at the centre of a struggle between Israel's far right and its Arab minority. Local politicians say the rise of anti-Arab sentiment is a threat to the whole country

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/feb/08/jewish-arabs-gaza-video

[ikojo]

1. It's sad but the oppressed have

become the oppressor. Instead of learning what NOT to do with power the oppressed has instead mimicked the worst of their oppression. As a Jew it shames me.

[GoesTo11]

8. Not quite mimicking the worst of their oppression

but what's a death camp or two between friends.

[inthebrain]

12. Oh yeah, blame the people...

How freakin lazy.

I'm sure all seven million "Jews" have determined they have a stake in this insanity.

Just as all the Palestinians have thrown in with Hamas and the PLO.

Right?

Dichotomous thinking only serves the status quo. And that is exactly what the ruling classes WANT. It keeps them snuggled comfortably in power. They are responsible for hoisting this bullshit on the people. And the one the that do think they have a stake in this have been indoctinated into it from the time they are very young.

But lets never consider that the moment a palestinian kid blows themselves up there isn't a moments hesitation to consider WHY they are doing it.

Or when an Isreali soldier bulldozes a Palestinian home they don't think twice about it either.

NO!!! We should never think of these people being able to think at all. Nor should we consider that the Ruling classes on both sides of this conflict enforce severe consequences when the suicide bomber or the soldier thinks to question just what it is they are doing.

Just blame the people. Yeah, that keeps things nice and simple.

Don't it?

[aquart]

2. They ARE afraid. That's what it's all about.

7 million Jews surrounded by hundreds of millions of not-Jews. Calling us a majority because there's more of us in one small place is a deliberate deception.

[Idealism]

3. Seriously? You really want to go there?

You might want to rethink your reasoning

[rainy]

4. Arn't you all really arab and letting a religion divide you is insane and

murderous.

[UndertheOcean]

7. I think you hurt his nationalist pathos

[aranthus]

40. No. Jews and Arabs are different nations.

Arab is a nationality based on the Arabic language. While Jews have learned to speak the language of many countries, there are three languages that are unique to them: Hebrew, Yiddish and Ladino. there is a distinct Jewish history separate from the Arabs, and a separate culture. It's not about religion per se.

[azurnoir]

43. What about Israeli Arabs? n/t

[aranthus]

44. Israeli Arabs are citizens of Israel

but they aren't Jews. If they want to live in a Jewish state, that's fine. If they want to live in an Arab state under Sharia law (which most don't), then they could move to an Arab state. What they don't get to do is turn Israel into an Arab state.

[azurnoir]

46. Oh so all Arab states institute Sharia law

thanks I had no idea:eyes:

[aranthus]

49. That isn't what I meant and you know it.

Can you respond intelligently to a post or are you limited to reading ambiguous sentences contrary to the context of the post so you have a straw man to attack?

[azurnoir]

50. Then just what did you mean?

If they want to live in an Arab state under Sharia law (which most don't), then they could move to an Arab state. What they don't get to do is turn Israel into an Arab state.

The implication seems to be that moving to an Arab state would mean living under Sharia law

[aranthus]

51. That if Arabs wanted to live in an Arab state they already have them.

If they want to live in a Sharia state, then they already exist. If they want to live in a French state, there is one. But they don't get to convert France to an Arab state. They don't get to make Israel an Arab state.

[azurnoir]

52. "They" already exist?

which ones or one? Saudi Arabia is about the only Arab country that could be said to be living under sharia law, and I do not quite get your newest one that Israeli Arabs would like to convert Israel into an Arab state?

[aranthus]

53. At least Saudi Arabia.

Look back at the post I was originally responding to. The point is that Jews and Arabs are separate nations. Would Israeli Arabs like to live in an Arab majority state? You're kidding right? Of course they would. Would the Palestinian demand for a right of return lead to an Arab majority state in place of Israel. Yes it would. I was responding to a post claiming that Arabs and Jews are separated only by religion, and which seemed to suggest that there should be a single state. The supposition that Jews and Arabs are separated only by religion is obviously false, isn't it? Then you ask about Israeli Arabs. So here we are with you nitpicking about imperfections in my sentences instead of actually debating the issue that was raised.

[Vegasaurus]

45. Israeli Arabs would prefer to call themselves Palestinians

They claim not to identify with Israel (but don't want to leave either).

[azurnoir]

47. Avi is that you? n/t

[UndertheOcean]

5. Yep , and south African whites where surrounded by millions of Africans

your point makes no sense.

[GoesTo11]

9. The point is that Israel is surrounded by people who want to annihilate it

and have since the country was formed.

[stillcool]

10. Since the country was formed...

the land-grab has been going on. I wouldn't worry about Israel. They have enough weapons to blow up the entire region and all those pesky Arabs. Might makes right.

[GoesTo11]

11. The desire to annihilate Israel isn't about land, it's about hate

Israel is right to want to continue to exist, first and foremost. Without the might, Israel would be destroyed. If it takes the threat of nuclear retaliation to keep their hate-filled neighbors from destroying them, so be it. Even if others think it's not right for Israel to exist, Israelis disagree and that's not going to change.

[stillcool]

19. oh please....

it's all about land. Every war is about land. At the center of every attempt at peace is boundaries, and the slice and dice of land. That 'hate us for our freedom' crap is old. Israel's nuclear weapons only guarantee the need for other countries to acquire their own. Israel is the threat.

[rainy]

21. Why does Israel have a right to exit as a country? It was founded by stealing

land and killing it's brethren. It has no right to exit as a separate state from all the other arabs that live in the region or who used to before their houses and olive trees were bulldozed over. If they have such a right to exist give them Texas.

[GoesTo11]

25. Israel is right to continue to exist

compared to their alternative - ceasing to exist. What the hell are Israelis going to do? Give up everything they have built and everything they know in order to beg to be refugees in some country that doesn't want any more Jews?

As for whether it has "a right" - that's unanswerable, as unless you buy the "God gave it to us" explanation no one has a right to anything. By rights, maybe it should all still be part of Turkey. But since you mention to it, Israel was founded according to the UN partition plan. Now, if you are mad about the 1948 partition plan borders being expanded by 1949, well, Israel didn't declare that war, they just fought it to survive.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oberliner]

26. What the hell?

Is this a parody?

[LeftishBrit]

27. It does exist. So does Texas (though Mexico might consider that the USA stole it...)

Whether it *should* have existed or not, you can't just get rid of it now without a bloodbath! And how are you going to incorporate it into Texas? Seriously!

[rainy]

29. See posst 28 nt

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. there is something somewhat comparable there

Texas and for that matter, California, New Mexico and Arizona were all essentially stolen from Mexico. Or perhaps one could say Mexico was "partitioned" and the Mexicans refused to be reasonable. But it is certainly not realistic - nor would it be fair at this point and time in history to expect the Southwest of the United States to be returned to Mexican sovereignty.

The Mexican people certainly understand that they are not getting the Southwest of the United States back - just as Arab peoples understand that the land between the Jordan and the Sea will remain part of the Israeli state. But it would also be unrealistic to not expect a certain amount of bitterness and sense of victimization from Mexican and other Latin American peoples which does indeed still remain after more than one hundred and fifty years - Just as a certain amount of bitterness and sense of victimization remains with the Palestinians and other Arab peoples after sixty years.

The vast majority of Mexican and Latin American people will never perceive history from the viewpoint of the United States anymore than Palestinians and Arab people will view history from the viewpoint of Israel.

Seeing each others side of the conflict from the same eyes will take at least a thousand years or more. Fortunately peace is not dependent on the commonality of historical narrative. It does require however the principle of mutual acceptance based on mutual respect and mutual interest that accepts the equality of human worth of the other.

[rainy]

32. I was joking about giving Texas to the Jewish people. I was just trying to make

a point about displacing one group for another. Only people have a right to exist nothing else. If one group thinks it has a right to exist over the other's then they have already lost the battle.

[aranthus]

37. No it was not.

The Israelis did not take any land from anyone until after the Arabs started a war with them. The Jews purchased the land that was originally theirs. The rest of the land was owned by the government, and transferred to Israel on the evacuation by the British. The war is not about who owns the land, but about who rules the land. The Arabs are fine with Jews owning land as long as the Arabs are the rulers. The Jews want to rule the land that they own, and the Arabs don't want that.

[Recursion]

33. Oh get over yourself. It's about land.

This is ridiculous. Jews lived in the Levant for millenia without Muslims launching pogroms against them. It's about the influx of a few million Europeans and the subsequent theft of land to house them.

[aranthus]

39. Wrong. It's about sovereignty.

First. You're wrong about the Arabs/Muslims not launching pogroms against the Jews. They did, only not as bad as in Europe (if you count Hitler). The peace that Jews enjoyed in the Arab world was bought with second class citizenship and special taxes. The Arabs did not object too much to the Jews as long as they agreed to live as underlings beneath the Arab ruling class (with some few exceptions).

Second, the Arab objection is to Jewish sovereignty, even over land that the Jews owned. The Jews did not take any land from anyone, let alone steal it, until after the Arabs attacked them.

[EFerrari]

14. This is the year 2009. Have you been in a coma for the last 30 years?

[GoesTo11]

18. Here's the tally

Not a PC tally, but a realistic one

Lebanon - would love to annihilate Israel
Jordan - probably wouldn't
Egypt - more than half the population would like it but its government too dependent on US aid and afraid of instability;
Saudi Arabia - wouldn't care much one way or another, thinks it would be kind of but government is happy to keep just keep stringing this out to help retain rule
Syria, Iran - would love to annihilate Israel and pray for the day
Iraq - would like to annihilate Israel but hasn't thought about it much lately
Palestinians - would be delighted to see Israel annihilated
Turkey - probably doesn't want to see Israel annihilated

[rainy]

22. Define Israel? Why do those nations what them out? Because they terrorize

their neighbors. They moved in with the expectation that they would ethnically cleanse the palestineans off of the Palestine's land and take it for themselves.

[GoesTo11]

23. I would define Israel as a Jewish state in any of the land it currently occupies

that would include a 1 mile square north of Tel Aviv. Israel is viewed as a western colonial cancer in the heart of the Muslim / Arab world (sorry about my mixed metaphor).

For the Palestinians, this is largely about land. For the other countries on the list, it's just visceral.

[aranthus]

42. Not true.

What you describe did not happen. The Jews moved to Palestine with the intention that they would build a national home which would include the Arabs. After the Arabs made that impossible (by attacking the Jews in the 1920's and 30's, the Jews strove for a state of their own and acknowledged that the Arabs would have to have a separate state. The Arabs refused this as well, and instead started a war to force their rule over all of Palestine.

[shaayecanaan]

30. Sheer brilliance

I'm astounded. It is all so clear to me now. What more can I say?

[aranthus]

41. Pretty close.

Most of Jordan's population is Palestinian, so they probably would want Israel destroyed if they could do so without too much cost. Saudi Arabia would join in to show the flag. They don't want Israel there, but they have better things to do with their money than fight wars.

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. here is the Arab League's unanimous official statement about accepting Israel

this statement was passed unanimously in 2002. But the original statement was unanimously passed in 1996. However this has been the expo-facto position of every Arab state for considerably longer.

The Arab Peace Initiative, 2002

Official translation of the full text of a Saudi-inspired peace plan adopted by the Arab summit in Beirut, 2002.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm


----------------------

The Arab Peace Initiative

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For purposes of comparison, the following is an earlier draft discussed by Arab foreign ministers on 25 March, 2002, in advance of the summit:

The Council of the Arab League, which convenes at the level of a summit on March 27-28, 2002 in Beirut, affirms the Arab position that achieving just and comprehensive peace is a strategic choice and goal for the Arab states.

After the Council heard the statement of Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz in which he called for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel, and that Israel declares its readiness to withdraw from the occupied Arab territories in compliance with United Nations resolutions 242 and 338 and Security Council resolution 1397, enhanced by the Madrid conference and the land-for-peace principle, and the acceptance of an independent, sovereign Palestinian state with al-Quds al-Sharif as its capital, the Council calls on the Israeli government to review its policy and to resort to peace while declaring that just peace is its strategic option.

The Council also calls on Israel to assert the following:

Complete withdrawal from the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including full withdrawal from the occupied Syrian Golan Heights and the remaining occupied parts of south Lebanon to the June 4, 1967 lines.

To accept to find an agreed, just solution to the problem of Palestinian refugees in conformity with Resolution 194.

To accept an independent and sovereign Palestinian state on the Palestinian lands occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and with Jerusalem (al-Quds al-Sharif) as its capital in accordance with Security Council Resolution 1397.

In return, the Arab states assert the following:

To consider the Arab-Israeli conflict over and to enter into a peace treaty with Israel to consolidate this.

To achieve comprehensive peace for all the states of the region.

To establish normal relations within the context of comprehensive peace with Israel.

The Council calls on the Israeli government and the Israelis as a whole to accept this initiative to protect the prospects of peace and to spare bloodshed so as to enable the Arab states and Israel to coexist side by side and to provide for the coming generations a secure, stable and prosperous future.

It calls on the international community with all its organisations and states to support the initiative.

The Council calls on its presidency, its secretary general and its follow-up committee to follow up on the special contacts related to this initiative and to support it on all levels, including the United Nations, the United States, Russia, the European Union and the Security Council.

http://www.al-bab.com/arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

.

[Recursion]

34. Now there you go injecting facts into Israeli paranoia

We can't have that; it would almost make Americans forget that Arabs have zero history of genocide, unlike us Westerners.

[Shaktimaan]

35. you're not serious, are you?

it would almost make Americans forget that Arabs have zero history of genocide, unlike us Westerners.

I didn't see a sarcasm tag so i'm not sure. You don't honestly have that poor a grasp of regional history, do you?

[Vegasaurus]

38. Zero history of genocide?

I guess you are conveniently forgetting about the 11 million Muslims, killed by other Muslims (most were Arabs, but some were African or Persian).

Arabs have a long history of murdering each other, and they are WAY ahead of the Jews' killing of Arabs.

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. Westerners have a long history of murdering each other and so do Asians, Africans

Latin Americans and probably just about anyone else out there. In the past one hundred years, I can't see where the Muslim world has been any worse than anyone else and probably not nearly as bad as Europe or Asia in the past one hundred years. And certainly no one comes even close to killing more Jews than Europeans.

If some day there is peace in the Middle East, it will only come about with a reduction in tensions between the Western world and the Islamic world and I would also say a reduction in tensions and hostile tone between the Jews, Muslims and Christians. I rejoice that we now have a President of the United States who understands just how important this is.

[rucky]

6. I agree...

with your sigline.

[peacetalksforall]

15. "Calling us a majority because there's more of us in one small place..."

Your use of the word 'us'

Are you a citizen of Israel living in Israel?

[azurnoir]

20. 7 million Jews where?

In Israel? You should recheck your facts on that number amongst other things the post was about Israel and in Israel Jews are the majority.

[safeinOhio]

13. There are good reasons for a "One State" solution

Every one needs to read this



http://www.alternet.org/audits/122810/controversial_bestseller_shakes_the_foundation_of_the_israeli_state/

[aranthus]

36. No there aren't.

Even if the article is true (and it's questionable), so what? What does it matter if Jews and Arabs share a bloodline? They are culturally distinct. There's much more than religion between them. National rights don't come from blood, they come from culture, language, history and sense of identity. In all those things, Jews and Arabs are different. That's why two states. Israeli Jews don't want to live under Muslim/Arab rule, and Arabs do. What's wrong with that?

[Turborama]

16. Here's the youtube version of it...

"The Jewish majority should be afraid of this Lieberman phenomena"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4b5WFC89EY

[peacetalksforall]

17. Impressions are all I have - they are all premised on this - passionate people

on both sides have been, in retrospect, juveniles. Juveniles for not being able to reach agreements for the good of their children and longevity which is in their hands. Juveniles for playing eye for an eye for decades. Juveniles in trying to use nuclear and F-16 bombs against stones, missiles, and body bombs.

I, like many in the States, supported Israel for decades. My feelings about Palestinians were mixed over time and I never took a position against them for two reasons - they didn't have a say about what happened to them when Europe/U.S. decided their future and I didn't know enough to say that they were doing things to hurt themselves. I considered suicide bombing a defensive measure beyond all reason, but the knowledge was there is that they are asking for things that should have been given to them - dignity, basics, movement, a safe future. It became obvious that Israel was not going to allow that. Perhaps they allowed it for short periods of time, but everything always went full cycle - failure after failure. Who allows that many failures in their life. I now think of the situation as sick. Bombs, death, massacres, bulldozer, phosphorous, tall walls sick.

Israel cannot demand or ask for special sympathy.

Over time, they haven't earned it.

I now find it easier to recognize lies, whining, and exaggeration.

Let the Palestinians survive, because Israel cannot annihilate them.

Do not deny peace.