Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"A few weeks ago, a senior Greek Orthodox clergyman in Israel attended a meeting at a government office in Jerusalem's Givat Shaul quarter. When he returned to his car, an elderly man wearing a skullcap came and knocked on the window. When the clergyman let the window down, the passerby spat in his face.

The clergyman prefered not to lodge a complaint with the police and told an acquaintance that he was used to being spat at by Jews. Many Jerusalem clergy have been subjected to abuse of this kind. For the most part, they ignore it but sometimes they cannot.

On Sunday, a fracas developed when a yeshiva student spat at the cross being carried by the Armenian Archbishop during a procession near the Holy Sepulchre in the Old City. The archbishop's 17th-century cross was broken during the brawl and he slapped the yeshiva student.

Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

But the Armenians are far from satisfied by the police action and say this sort of thing has been going on for years. Archbishop Nourhan Manougian says he expects the education minister to say something.

"When there is an attack against Jews anywhere in the world, the Israeli government is incensed, so why when our religion and pride are hurt, don't they take harsher measures?" he asks."

more

[JoDog]

1. OK, everybody,

can we just use some basic manners, please? Would these guys like to spit on? Maybe they should remember the words of the ancient Jewish sage Hillel: "That which is objectionable to you, do not do to another. That is the law. The rest is just commentary."

[no_hypocrisy]

3. I was just about to rhetorically state where in the Talmud and Commentaries

is spitting sanctioned and promoted?

[xchrom]

2. interesting -- though i would say jesus

commented on this -- and the clergy should not complain.

and after centuries of abuse at the hands of 'the church' -- something like this was going to happen

[Chulanowa]

10. So it's okay to spit on people...

because they belong to the same faith that people you dislike also belong to?

[xchrom]

34. did i say it was ok?

i said jesus spoke to it -- and there are hard feelings about the abuses of the institution of the church.

but jesus was pretty damn clear -- and there isn't much room for debate -- and the clergy are carriers of his word.

[grassfed]

38. background

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=270462&mesg_id=270462

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Indeed.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=385&topic_id=270462&mesg_id=270470

[YOY]

4. If true, id' say a harsher punishment for destroying the cross is due.

Not due to religious reasons, but the student destroyed a historical artifact that belonged to someone else. 75 days away from the Old City? Give me a break.

Then again we're not talking about normal Jewish folks or even normal Orthodox Jews....we're talking freaking psycho fundies. They don't behave unless the law makes them behave...even then they rail against it.

[Howardx]

5. the one bad apple story again

its getting old.

[YOY]

6. Unfortunately it seems that the current Israel state caters to these folks...

I consider them the same group folks who killed Yitzhak Rabin: far right religious extremists who kill or break the law if they don't get their way are oddly tolerated by their current government.

It should be clarified...but the story (on an Israeli newspaper) claims nonsepcifically it simply was Jews. No Jewish folks I know do that kind of crap. I have a friend who was in the IDF who told me stories about the creepy Zionists who hang out at the Wailing wall and try to recruit young Jewish folks to "closer observer" the faith. :shrug:

[Howardx]

9. the fact that they are tolerated

makes it anything but a "one bad apple" type situation. this sort of thing is condoned in modern israel by the police and the govt.

[YOY]

11. If you really want to be sick check out the groups railing for the guy who killed Rabin to be freed.

They guy killed a head of state...his OWN state to make matters worse. Never expressed any remose. Hated Rabin for the Oslo Agreement. NOT ONE BIT OF REMORSE.

And there are assclowns who want him free...even though he killed their head of state in 1995.

[Howardx]

15. ive seen them

same jerks want pollard freed.

[Ken Burch]

43. All of that is true except that Rabin was head of the government, not "Head of state"

As is the case in republican systems that use a parliamentary form of government(such as Ireland), Israel has a figurehead president who performs ceremonial duties and whose most important function is deciding which party leader should get first crack at forming a government following an election.

Not meaning to be pedantic, just thought this should be kept straight.

[YOY]

44. Thanks Mr. Burch. The exact workings of the Knesset is standard Parlimentary thought, no?

n/t

[Ken Burch]

45. it is based on the British model, with the addition of strict proportional representation

with only a 1% threshold for parliamentary representation.

They experimented with a direct vote for PM in the 90's, but then scrapped it as it didn't really seem to help anything.

[henank]

27. What has this got to do with the price of cheese?

What on earth have these people got to do with the person who killed Yitzchak Rabin? These people in the article are religious extremists; Rabin's murderer was a political ideological extremist; the murder had nothing to do with religion nor did the murderer claim he was doing it for religion's sake.

As for the article stating it was "nonspecifically Jews", the article makes clear it was yeshiva students. Those are ultra-Orthodox.

As for your story about the "creepy Zionists" at the Wailing Wall - well, I hardly know where to begin. Are Zionists not allowed to hang out at the Wall? Are they not allowed to recruit young Jewish folk to be closer to the Jewish faith? And since when do "Zionists", creepy or not, try and recruit Jews to be more religious? Surely your friend was talking about religious Jews? And are they, in your eyes or your friends, also not allowed to recruit Jews to the religion? And if not at the Wall then where?

And what has ANY of that to do with the fact that some disgusting yeshiva students spat at Christians and destroyed a cross?

:shrug:

[YOY]

28. Same right wing loonies. Exactly the same.

and you'll have to excuse us...but we don't like right wing religious loonies here...of any streak.

They have this habit of not liking anyone else unless they are exactly like them and seeing the world in black and white.

[henank]

29. You're quite welcome

to not like right wing religious loonies.

But I still don't get the connection between Rabin's murderer (nationalist) and a guy spitting on a Christian (religious extremist).

The two events are completely unconnected and are motivated by completely different ideologies, emotions and backgrounds.

They have this habit of not liking anyone else unless they are exactly like them and seeing the world in black and white.
Ha! Could say that about an awful lot of posters on DU.

[YOY]

30. Not liking people who don't like others based on their background, religion, race, sex, etc...

isn't bigotry. It's basically, telling a bigot, no matter what "noble cause" they are using to back themselves to sod off. I don't care what a freaking clansman thinks. Nor do I care one squat what Fred Phelps thinks. Theirs is not the opposite viewpoint of mine. His opinion is built on lies and mis-truths with no actual demonstrable fact to back it up and an insult to everyone who can debate or discuss things rationally.

And as for right wing religious loonies and right wing nationalists, they are one in the same in this case. Let's not fool ourselves, shall we? The two have intermarried here...they're completely inbred there.

[LeftishBrit]

31. 'One and the same..' Not really.

One of the few positive things about the current situation is that the religious-right and nationalist-right are *not* one and the same. There is overlap - but Shas (religious-right) referred to Lieberman's party (nationalist-right) as 'Satan'. This is positive, because the factionalism is bound to reduce their power.

[YOY]

41. I'm sure they never associate or mix or mingle...

n.t.

[grassfed]

37. maybe the ones who throw feces at Jewish women daring to visit the wall?

creepy to me

[Captain Needa]

7. I hope ADL makes a survey

about anti-muslim and anti-christianism in Israel as well.

[GoesTo11]

35. These fellows also spit on more secular Jews

Equal opportunity spitters.

[Lithos]

42. Yes, I have friends who visited Jerusalem and found out the hard way

n/t

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

8. It's true.

Our Lieberman is a jerk.
Their Lieberman is a sociopath.

[Chulanowa]

14. There's a double standard at work here.

If a Jewish Israeli commits hate crimes against Christians, Druze, or Muslims, ranging from defacing of property to opening fire on a mosque, he is a lone crazy person who should not be held as being representative of anyone.

On the other hand, if a Muslim or a Christian does this - and both groups have - they're not "lone crazy people", but are instead parts of a highly organized and terrifying terrorist organization, justifying their immediate internment and seizure of property coupled with "intense interrogation" of everyone in their family and all their co-workers.

I'm not saying the second group's criminals should be given free rides, but I do think some actual investigation and culpability should be "enjoyed" by the first group as well. When a man assassinates a prime minister and is labeled as "a lone gunman" by that PM's successors, who also wins a wide following of people asking for his release from prison... It doesn't add up for me, is all.

[YOY]

16. I actually cried when I watched the telecast of Rabin's granddaughter speak at his funeral.

Her heartfelt questioning of "WHY WOULD YOU DO THIS???" fell upon the ears that it needed to and not the remorseless ears that would ever be able to justify such a killing with any sensible answer.

They anyone would sympathize with the sack of vile shit that killed a peacemaker head of state is beyond reproach. He had organization be hind him. Maybe not a conspiracy but he sure as hell didn't do it clear out of the blue with no help.

[Captain Needa]

19. Totally agree

I cried that day. And the thought that it wasn't a lone gunman haunts my mind ever since.

[Chulanowa]

21. You don't kill heads of state by being some random whackadoo

Unless, perhaps, you're smitten with Jodie Foster, and truthfull, I find even that one hard to buy.

There are cohesive violent Jewish organizations in Israel and the colonies. And by its silence, the government of Israel encourages them.
Frankly I think angry Arabs are probably going to be a secondary worry for most Israelis in the near future - if htey haven't been sheeped to the point of blase indifference anyway.

[YOY]

22. A funny story in the neo-horror fiction novel World War Z by Max Brooks has an interesting take.

Of course the book is about a worldwide "John Romero" Zombie Plague...sounds silly but he goes over geopolitics of the plague/war. Israel takes in the Palestinians in a surprise move to protect them from the plague (they would make it worse if they stayed in Palestine/Gaza and became infected.) The result is all of their homeraised crazies trying to revolt violently. They are put down and Israel actually fares far better than other nations afterwards.

I do believe the author is Jewish...talking about the crazies is something Jewish family and friends don't like to do, but the crazies are not popular.

[Chulanowa]

23. Sounds interesting!

Future history, Middle East affairs and zombies. I'll have to get that one :D

[YOY]

25. If you miss it Brad Pitt's company Plan B is making it into a movie.

Although I doubt the politijunkies can get their fill on it as well as the book did. The fates of the US, Australia, Japan, South and North Korea (especially good), Russia, China, England, Germany, France, South Africa, Pakistan, India, and poor poor South America are in it.

Oddly, this book written 3/4 years ago about an event that is supposed to start at the end of the Bush era, described a great American president, A black man. Who made the hard decisions and saved us. It broke his heart and the stress and guilt killed him before he finished. His vice was seen as kind of a "wacko leftie" speaks to the writer (the book written in interview format) on his behalf. Prophetic in a sense...

It also never names names politically. It describes a former Administrative Aid named gROVEr CARLson who made all sorts of excuses for his administration's inability to address the initial stages of the plague. I won't spoil his post war fate. It is so fitting.

[rrneck]

24. I just finished an interesting book

regarding the effect of bad barrels on the apples inside them. It's been out a while, so you might have alread seen it, but it's The Lucifer Effect by Phil Zimbardo.

It's surprisingly easy to turn good people into monsters.

[Chulanowa]

32. I don't find it surprising at all; It's biology

We are my our absolute nature, a territorial, tribal species of animal. We can't overcome this, though we can adapt it - one of the reasons urban people are more "liberal" than rural people, is that to some extent, the urban people recognize their neighbors as "part of the tribe" and have an interest in their well-being, while those out in rural areas have much smaller "tribes" and are thus resistant to seeing help given to "outsiders" that might compete. This is the basis of cults, movements, political parties, religions, and nations. Many times there's a guiding hand.

Other times, it's environmental - your "bad barrel:. For example.

The Stanford Prison Experiment is repeated every time a bunch of new kids mans a checkpoint between Israel and the West Bank. The new guys show up and just want to do their job, and just want to do it right, by the book - basically being good, upstanding, and moral men and women who are performing a function for their nation. Most manage to be polite and courteous with the Palestinians coming through, even to the point where the people passing through feel secure enough to tease the newbies.

Eventually though, whether from experience or the guiding hand of someone who's been there longer, the guards learn that they hold pretty much absolute authority over the lives of the men and women passing through these checkpoints. They start taking advantage of the situation. The more they push, the more they discover how little resistance there is, either from the people they're overseeing, or from their own superiors, who have undergone the same thing.

Of course, it's not just Israelis - if the roles were reversed, it'd be the same way. Given authority, most people will pull it as far as they can. It's one of the horrible facts that the more captive the population, the less overhead resistance there is to abusing them. Israeli checkpoints - or Kuwaiti ones. American border crossings. Prisons and mental institutions. Even schools suffer this.

[rrneck]

40. Absouletely. Well said. nt

[henank]

26. Read the article

It's not "just" 75 days away from the Old City. That is "meanwhile" - until the court case comes up.

From the OP:
Both were questioned by police and the yeshiva student will be brought to trial. The Jerusalem District Court has meanwhile banned the student from approaching the Old City for 75 days.

"Then again we're not talking about normal Jewish folks or even normal Orthodox Jews....we're talking freaking psycho fundies."
Correct.

[bunnies]

12. If someone spit on me I'd kick their ass.

Just sayin.

[Captain Needa]

13. But then you'd be a Nazi

an anti-semitic and a member of Hamas, the Islamic Jihad or Hezbollah. But yes, I'd beat the crap out of him as well.

[azurnoir]

17. I dunno it depends

t6he elderly man no but would have to tell him that I did not retaliate 'cause he's OLD the next person he does might not be so considerate and ask him just where in the torah or talmud for that matter this is acceptable the yeshiva student well I will admit I am old enough to not be able to kick ass there perhaps a rock, no, a rotten egg give him something to remember

[bunnies]

18. :)

At 5' tall, I'm not sure how much ass I'd be able to kick either. But there would sure be some SERIOUS screaming going on. :grr:

[Captain Needa]

20. As I told a motherfucker one day

he pulled me out of an underground queue some years ago because he didn't want to wait (and he was old enough to be Tutankhamon's grandfather) one must only sit and wait to be elderly, you don't have to learn anything nor knowing anything. He who is stupid at young age has most of the chances to be an asshole when geting old. Agreed, I'd restrain from kickin' his sorry ass, but as sure as there is no god that I'd scare the crap out of his sorry mind.

[IndianaGreen]

33. Somehow I am completely unmoved about this story

While one could make the argument that spitting at people is bad manners, one could also say that Christians have been bashing everyone else for 2,000 years and they whine when someone pushes back at them.

In the spirit of Prop-8, FRAK all of them!

[shaayecanaan]

36. so am I...

who gives a shit, really? Its a single, random, obscure instance of religious bigotry. The Greek and Armenian clergies seem to spend as much time spitting on each other as they do getting spat on by Jews.