Two Qassam rockets fired from Gaza hit Negev

[oberliner]

Just as Israel and the Palestinian group Hamas were finalizing the details of a cease fire agreement, militants in the Gaza Strip fired two Qassam rockets at the western Negev Monday morning.

One rocket struck an open area in the Sha'ar Hanegev region, while the other exploded inside a kibbutz in the Sdot Negev region. No injuries were reported in either incident, but the explosions apparently caused some property damage.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1064531.html

[Behind the Aegis]

1. Firecrackers! No one was killed!

Why should Hamas be responsible for ALL of the possible rockets that fly from Gaza? HOW IS THAT FAIR!? :cry:

[Chulanowa]

2. Tell me Aegis...

Do you hold Barack Obama and his administration culpable for street crime in Detroit? How about in D.C.? Do you think Bill Clinton should answer for Timothy McVeigh or the '93 WTC bombers?

'Course you don't, and good on you for not being so foolish.

Similarly, can you hold Hamas accountable for something Fatah Al-Aqsa Brigades does, simply because Hamas is the leading party in Gaza at the moment? Do you expect Hamas forces to be capable of feats that no other police force in the world is capable of doing - such as prescient crimefighting?

And yes, I'm going to pin the blame on the Martyr's Brigade here. They were behind the majority of rockets fired between June and November. I imagine they'd be repeating this exercise, hoping to get the same results as they did on December 28. I hope Israel doesn't fall for it again and continues working with Hamas despite the provocation from Hamas' political rivals.

[oberliner]

3. Street crime in Detroit?

What a bizarre analogy.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. What's so bizarre about that?

They make a very good point. Would someone who holds one govt responsible for what others do also hold the same attitude when it comes to other governments?

[oberliner]

7. Street crime in Detroit only affects people in Detroit

If Detroit reached an agreement with Ann Arbor that it would not launch rockets against that city, but rockets from Detroit continued to land in Ann Arbor, then the Mayor of Detroit ought to be held responsible for those attacks even if he himself (or his party) was not initiating them.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. It's not about who it affects, it's about who's held responsible...

And I'd also be interested in yr answer to the question that was posed to you by Chulinowa...

[oberliner]

12. Hamas is responsible for attacks emenating from Gaza against Israel

Similarly, Israel is responsible for attacks emanating from Israel against Gaza.

If a bunch of Kahanist lunatics tried to set up a rocket-launching site in the Negev and began shooting rockets into Gaza on a daily basis, the Israeli government would (and ought to) be responsible for not taking action to prevent such attacks.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. And do you hold Israel responsible for attacks on Palestinians by Israelis in the West Bank? n/t

[oberliner]

14. Absolutely

Israel is responsible not only for individual attacks on Palestinians by Israelis in the West Bank, but for the entire settlement enterprise itself which is an affront to peace and international law.

That is why we need to move swiftly towards a two state solution that will end this situation once and for all.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. Then you and I see eye to eye on this ...

The only quibble I'd make is that there's a difference between the Israeli govt and Hamas being held responsible for the actions of individuals or groups, and saying that they actually carry out the attacks. I've seen that latter said about Hamas a few times, and while they should be held responsible, they're not the ones carrying them out...

[oberliner]

18. Well we don't know who is carrying them out in this case

Has any group claimed responsibility for the most recent rocket attacks?

[Chulanowa]

30. It was Fatah

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129697

But of course, what the fuck do I know, right? :rofl:

[Chulanowa]

6. Nice non-answer

Here's the question again, since you must have misplaced your reading glasses. I'll even simplify it for you, to leave out all the very, very confusing bits such as comparing violent crime to violent crime which is clearly throwing you for a loop.

When a non-Hamas actor fires a rocket, is it Hamas' fault?

If yes, there's a followup: Do you expect Hamas to engage in prescient policework to prevent such an action from taking place?

If yes, followup to the followup: Do you also expect this sort of crimefighting ability from other governments?

[oberliner]

9. I didn't realize there was a question directed at me

But in response to your questions:

First, violent crime within one city is not the same as people from one city launching rockets against people in another city.

Second, when people from Gaza repeatedly fire rockets daily at Israel then it is the responsibility of the governing body of Gaza to prevent this from happening.

One would think that it would be difficult to set up a rocket launcher and obtain the necessary materials to create and launch a rocket without the authorities being aware that such activities were going on. This does not seem to require "prescient policework" to prevent. Gaza is, after all, about the size of Washington DC.

[Violet_Crumble]

10. And do you feel the same when people from Israel attack Palestinian civilians? n/t

[oberliner]

15. Indeed I do

There is no excuse for deliberately attacking civilians, and both governments must take aggressive action to prevent this from happening. Neither have done so.

[Chulanowa]

17. Well, you chose to make a silly remark in response...

Though not to the same degree as the person I had originally asked that question of. I was hoping you might be capable of delivering an answer while Aegis was busy gnawing his own toenails.

Thanks for doing so.

Point one, my question would be the same with regards to inter-city gang warfare, such as what we see from multi-state gangs such as the Crips and Bloods, or even international crime organizations like the Mafia, Russian Mob, or MS13.

Point two. How much "prevention" is enough? Do the standards fluctuate depending on who is supposed to do the preventing?

For an example, after the June 17 truce between Hamas and Israel, rocket attacks on Israel were dropping exponentially by the month until, by october the grand total of rocket and mortar attacks was two. Is this an acceptable level of prevention?

Another example, numerous violent gangs operate between the US and Mexican borders despite the best efforts by the authorities of both nations. The resultant death tolls, while probably not that large... are still death tolls. Is this also acceptable prevention?

Is one of the two levels of prevention more acceptable than the other?

Point three... No, it's not hard at all to set up a rocket launcher. Have you ever seen one? This is what they look like. For a scale example, see here. We're not talking high tech stuff.

Also, the Gaza strip is roughly 139 square miles of land. Washington, DC is about half that size. Give nteh crime rate in DC, I'm not sure exactly where you're going with that one

[oberliner]

19. Hey I just thought it was a weird analogy!

But I am always willing to engage in conversation and debate. Thank you for responding to my points.

Here's where I was going with the area of DC point. It's a lot easier to keep track of what is going on in a region that size than in a region the size of the US. So it would be harder for Obama to know exactly what is going on in Detroit than it would be for the Haniyeh to know what is going on in Rafah.

I understand your argument, but my main point is this:

Hamas could take many actions to prevent these rocket attacks from happening if they so chose.

I have not seen so much as a condemnation from Hamas from the recent rocket attacks.

Also, you will note that Hamas itself has been responsible for many such attacks over the years.

I do not find the situation here to be analogous to your hypothetical situations in the US.

If Hamas was really interested in ensuring that no rocket attacks emanated from Gaza, I believe they could take serious steps to do so that they do not appear to be taking.

[Chulanowa]

20. That last statement is rather hypocritical

Israel could take serious steps to put an end to the entire damn problem. In fact it's the only party in this conflict that is actually capable of doing so. They don't appear to be doing so, do they?

And lets be honest here. The last time Hamas took action to prevent rocket attacks - and was apparently doing a pretty good job of it - Israel not only refused to maintain its end of the agreement, but also ended the whole deal by launching missiles into Gaza and bombing the crap out of its southern border area. I'm not saying the rocket fire is a good idea, but I can't really see Hamas' incentive to work too hard at preventing it, much less condemning it. Especially since who the fuck would care of Hamas condemned it anyway? The world doesn't beleive it when millions of "sane" muslims condemn terrorism, why the fuck would htey beleive the supposedly psycho muslims of Hamas?

[oberliner]

21. It's not hypocritcal

As I am not speaking on behalf of the Israeli government.

Of course Israel could take steps as well. But so can Hamas. And they have chosen not to do so.

Might be interesting to see what would happen if Hamas renounced violence, cracked down on all rocket attacks, recognized Israel, and committed itself to peace.

It would be pretty powerful if Hamas embraced these steps and stuck with them in the face of whatever intransigence Israel presented.

[Chulanowa]

22. The same thing that happened when the PLO did it

Israel will continue to assassinate heads of the organization, shoot missiles into "strategic targets", increase "settlements," and demand Hamas give Israel more security while demanding Hamas dismantle its security infrastructure.

Israel continued making war when the PLO was trying to make peace. Israel renewed hostilities when Hamas turned out to be doing a good job at upholding its end of a cease-fire.

Know what would happen if Hamas "goes Gandhi"? Nothing. The world likes dead Palestinians and Israel doesn't seem to mind providing that commodity. Gandhi's strategy of counting on the British to grow disgusted with their own actions wouldn't work, for one big, terrible reason.

Palestinians are not considered human. They are "Savages" - according to various Israeli heads of state they are all "cockroaches" and "snakes" and "rats." The result of a fully peaceful Hamas would be the same result numerous peaceful Native American attempts got - continued slaughter and deportation, for the same reasons - not being "human" enough.

[oberliner]

23. The world likes dead Palestinians?

Fascinating analysis.

And great manipulation of "quotes" from various Israeli heads of state.

It's amazing that someone here would advocate against the cause of peaceful non-violent resistance.

[cboy4]

24. The world likes dead Palestinians?

:crazy:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cboy4]

26. Bingo

:thumbsup:

[Chulanowa]

28. You haven't noticed?

Hell, Cboy, you're a participant.

[cboy4]

32. Because I loathe Hamas and fiercely root against them,

wishing all of the rat bastards nothing but bad luck and terrible misfortune .. the whole world, including myself wants to see all Palestinians dead?

Uhhhh, that's a stretch.

I can't wait until you have me working for Mossad. lol

[Chulanowa]

34. I don't believe you're smart enough to do laundry service for Mossad

So no worries of me accusing you of working for them.

I didn't say you want to see all Palestinians dead. I said you like seeing dead Palestinians.

You root for Hamas' downfall, and cheer for the people you think are accomplishing this. You do not question the methods used, do you?

In this recent operation, the PCHR states 940 civilians were killed, against a number of 390 militants and police.
That's more than two civilians killed for every "bad guy" - and that number grows larger if we don't count the police as "bad guys."
In the same operation, over five thousand were wounded.
Countless homes and businesses were destroyed.
More people will die, due to Israel's destruction of electrical, water, and medical infrastructure.
All this paired with the border blockade that's supposed to hurt Hamas, but has been doing much worse harm to the civilians of Gaza.

This is what you're cheering for, Cboy. Maybe you don't do the math. Maybe it's all a movie to you. In fact the naive view of the conflict taken by many of Israel's supporters really seems to suggest to me that the majority of you think this is all entertainment for your enjoyment, instead of an actual one-sided conflict where innocent lives are being lost in numbers that would appall you if you for a moment thought you weren't watching the latest blockbuster action movie.

In the same vein, Hamas is currently the government of Gaza. Their bad luck and terrible misfortune turns into bad luck and terrible misfortune for the people they're governing - such as how a wish for President Obama's failure becomes a wish for the failure of the country around him. Again perhaps you didn't do the math. Again, perhaps it's just entertainment, perhaps a sporting event? Hope they fumble the ball, hope the linebacker sprains his ankle, hope the ref gets pissed over endzone dances? Of course, we're not the Aztecs and lives don't depend on the outcome of a ball game, so perhaps you think that when the game is over, the winners will shake hands with the losers and they'll all go home to bang their supermodel wives.

But people are dying - on both sides of course, but far more on the Palestinian side of it. And here you are, cramming popcorn into your mouth and hooting every time your "team" scores at hit. Or twenty-five. Or a hundred. Or one thousand three hundred and thirty-eight.

You're supported in this mentality by a media machine that implicitly informs us that only Israelis have names, only Israelis have families and businesses, only Israelis suffer in hospital wards, only Israeli homes can sustain property damage, and that only Israelis can be murdered. Palestinians are nameless and spring into the world fully-formed, and are never murdered. In fact they rarely even just die. They were "struck". Perhaps they were "eliminated" as if they were an infestation of scabies mites. Israelis are victims of violence, Palestinians are body counts and collateral.

When it comes to a subject like lots of people dying, I tend to translates people's apathy as enjoyment. Particularly when they struggle so hard as you and so many others do to hold onto that apathy and find new and creative ways to further it, whether through asinine justification, or bland and willful ignorance of the situation.

So yes. I think you enjoy dead Palestinians. I don't think you want to see them all dead - after all that would mean the game you're so enjoying has come to a close.

[cboy4]

35. First of all, how does a Hamas supporter like yourself

decide to fly an avatar of Mahatma Ghandi.

You don't see any conflict in that? You know terror vs non-violence.

Second of all, I don't like seeing innocent Palestinians dead, but when it comes to militant Hamas members, it's true I don't lose a wink of sleep hearing they've been taken out.

And finally, this is the part that really gets me:

"...Hamas is currently the government of Gaza. Their bad luck and terrible misfortune turns into bad luck and terrible misfortune for the people they're governing..." :wtf:

Let's just set aside your hilarious comment about how the poor Hamas militants have such bad luck and terrible misfortune (I think I'm getting a little tear in my eye).

Why do you think it turns into a nightmare situation for the civilian population?

Could it be they have nobody to blame but themselves, since they use said civilians as human shields, and position Grad rocket launchers near schools and hospitals?

You are so protective of your team of thugs in green. It's really nauseating.

[Chulanowa]

36. My opposition to Israel doesn't translate into support for Hamas

But I'm not surprised that you can't figure that out - Like I said, you're probably not fit to scrub the hashes out of underwear.

You wished bad luck and terrible misfortune upon Hamas. I was simply letting you know that that wish, when it comes true, has some pretty messy results among the bystanders. Even if Israel uses some of those magic missiles that the US has that only kill the bad guys, the continued killing of members of government in Gaza isn't going to help the civilians of Gaza at all, is it?

And under international law, if your target is next to a hospital you know is full of wounded and the people tending to them... You don't shoot at that target. In a hostage situation, you don't gun down the hostages to get at the bad guy.

Unless the wounded, the doctors, and the hostages are Arabs, I guess?

[cboy4]

37. I notice you ignored the question about Ghandi....I don't

blame you.

Even I felt bad pinning you into a helpless corner with your blatant and unbelievable display of hypocrisy, using a peace-loving Ghandi avatar, while cheering on Hamas, which loves death.

I mean, you don't even blame Hamas for puting so many thousands of civilians in danger by their terrorist actions of firing Grad missiles deep into Israeli territory.

If you're so interested in helping the innocent civilians in Gaza, and so am I .. you should tell your Hamas friends to stop placing women and children and senior citizens in danger.

But we all know the thugs in green have other ideas.

[Chulanowa]

38. Because it was based on an assumption of yours that I corrected.

Of course you seem to have not noticed said correction, so I can understand your apparent bewilderment.

Gandhi's cause was justice. Much like Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King, our media has neutered Gandhi into nothing more than "he wanted peace." No. he advocated nonviolent solutions, but struggled for a writing of intense wrongs piled atop his people. The methods he sought were noncompliance with the government, rebellion against unjust law, and self-sacrifice even in the face of violence. Our current worldview would like to believe that those injustices never existed, and instead that these men were just "peace activists" rather than the dangerous rebels that they were, rebels and revolutionaries who's words and actions were such a threat that assassinations were brought to bear on all three, and succeeded against two.

He's there to remind me that men and women must stand for what is right, and if I must do so alone, then I will. He is a reminder to me that violence is not the best method, a reminder that is often needed considering my own upbringing. If it makes you feel better, my previous avatar was Crazy Horse. I have to admit, ol' Thašuŋka Witko is still an awfully tempting role model, which makes Gandhi's place there even more important.

If by your yardstick my support for the people of Gaza and the West Bank translates into support for, even love for Hamas, then I guess I support and love Hamas. Now do you have any further snarls of poor logic to try out, or are we done here?

[cboy4]

39. Sure, we can be done, but do you know how silly it sounds

for someone like you and your support for Hamas' actions to say this about Ghandi :

"He is a reminder to me that violence is not the best method."

Did you mean to say, "he is a reminder to me that violence is not the best method, meaning Israel, but it's perfectly fine if Hamas shoots rockets and blows themselves up on Israeli buses?"

Because your comment as it stands is wildly inaccurate.

You can't say violence is not the best method and have it apply to only one side.

That's hypocritical.

[Chulanowa]

40. Not quite so silly as your assertion that I support such.

You still haven't noticed that you're lying, have you? Is it just reflexive for you or something?

[cboy4]

41. I will glady apologize for misinterpreting if you denounce

Hamas.

Now's your big chance.

[Chulanowa]

42. I'll denounce their use of terrorism and violence against innocents, sure.

But I've already said this

[cboy4]

43. Alright, I hadn't heard that before...Since I'm a man of my word,

I'm sorry for accusing you of blindly supporting Hamas.

Just so you know .. one of my friends is the executive director of a CAIR office.

That doesn't mean we see eye to eye on everything, because we argue all the time in a friendly way.

But there's deep mutual respect between us, and I happily hang out with he and his Arab buddies from time to time. We have a great time, and I've learned so much about Islam and their culture.

So to say that I wish for innocent Palestinians to die .. that's just unfair, because it couldn't be further from the truth.

[Chulanowa]

44. I'm afraid I can't return the apology

When you wish for people in Hamas to die, you say so with hte full knowledge that a number of civilians will likely die with them - missiles and bombs tend to be very messy means of killing a single person, after all. Similarly you seem to make no difference between Hamas-with-rockets, and Hamas-with-Paperwork. A large part of Hamas members are in fact innocent. They're everything from file clerks to police officers, doctors and firefighters, tax collectors and all the other governmental officves and bureaucratic hangers-on.

You know as well as I do that there's no real way to separate the militant members of Hamas from the non-militant, and the rank and file of Palestine. Even if there were do you think all those militants should just be lined up and gunned down? I'd prefer they be arrested and face trial, complete with evidence and a jury and all the other stuff that even Charles Manson got.

So while I do understand your point, I simply can't apologize for my reaction to the actual effects of what you're desiring. Like I was saying, perhaps you simply haven't done the math to realize the outcome of what you say you were rooting for.

Also, after some thinking, there's a caveat to my stance against Hamas' violence and terrorism. While I still can't condone the actions... I can understand where they're coming from, and all things considered, I can't really blame them sometimes.

It's very easy for you and I to sit in our homes in the United States and argue and debate as to how Hamas, or whoever, should follow the methods of Mohandas Gandhi, or Martin Luther king, or whoever. You and I don't have to face the situation the people in Gaza have as a daily part of their lives. Hell, you and I don't really have any connect to all these "peaceful" historic figures we're talking about.

What would you do if you were in the position of a Palestinian - or for that matter, an Iraqi? a Chechen? What if you found yourself living under an occupation that was indifferent at best, and actively violent at worst, towards you and your family? Would you bow your head and accept this state of affairs quietly? How long would that last? Until your best friend gets killed, along with ten others who took up a protest? Until your home is invaded, your mother and sister ordered to strip for a search before they carry your father away? Until you wind up in the same place your father went, having your scrote cut open by someone trying to get you to confess to a crime you didn't commit?

I may think the methods of violence will achieve nothing. But I can't exactly blame these people, in their situation, for being angry and violent, Cboy. If I were in their position, I think I would end up the same way.

And you know, maybe you and I are somewhat wrong about peaceful solutions being the only solutions. I see Hezbollah drive Israel from Lebanon twice. I see the warriors of Afghanistan who drove out the British, who destroyed the Russians, and who are probably just itching to give us a taste of it. I see my own relatives the Seminole who fought the United States to a standstill, retaining their lands and remaining the only bunch of Indians to not have been conquered. I see the antecedents of those Americans, conducting savage warfare against the British, and sending them sailing home with red on more than their coats. I see Israel stomping the fuck out of the Nations coming after it and maintaining its territorial integrity (for the moment, let's skip over their territorial acquisitions on that one). I see this stuff and I wonder. If the Palestinians weren't fighting, what would they have? We'll never know, and there's really not much point to the question I suppose. But I do wonder.

Also, a question came to mind. I remember not too very long ago, I was reading an article full of interviews with Tibetans. Many of them (speaking on condition of anonymity, of course) spoke of some level of admiration for organizations like Hamas, or the Sadr Army. The implication the only thing restraining a firestorm of Tibetan violence is a deep respect for the Dalai lama... Paired with absolutely no respect for the dude the Chinese have picked as his successor. When the Dalai Lama finally passes on, I think we're going to see a very big, scary mess erupt in Tibet. Here we have a people who for over fifty years have endured a violent occupation with peace, at the behest of their leader. The Chinese have shown no care for peaceful resistance, and are as violent and brutal as any other occupying power.

When Tibet gets violent - and I'm afraid it's not terribly far off - will you be able to tut-tut about it, and condemn the Tibetan fronts for their actions? I rather think that you may be a little more understanding there than you are here, even if you may not necessarily agree.

[Vegasaurus]

27. Hamas chooses not to be anything close to "fully peaceful"

they have pledged eternal war until they liberate "all of greater Palestine".

They don't care how many of themselves, their people or innocent Isrealis get killed in the process.

This is savage, inhumane, insane thinking.

[Chulanowa]

29. So you think the same thing about Likud and Yisraeli Beiteinu?

Since both have promised essentially the same thing with regard to "all of Greater Israel" and clearly aren't too worried about how many Israelis or Palestinians have to die to get there (though unlike Hamas, I imagine the fat fucks in those parties are worried about their own skins)

Come to think of it, your standards make Great Britian, the United States, and many other countries "savage and inhuman" too.

But anyway. Honest question - Is Hamas capable of achieving its goal of destruction of Israel?

[Vegasaurus]

31. At this point, no, Hamas is not capable of that goal

but that doesn't stop them from gaining access to bigger and more powerful weapons so that eventually they CAN achieve their goal of destruction of Israel.

If Iran gets a nuke, who knows what Hamas could do, since Iran is the biggest supplier of longer range rockets to Gaza.

I don't agree with Beiteinu and the "greater Israel" people, but they are a much smaller subsection of Israelis than you think.

But Israelis don't, in general, have the goal of blowing all the Palestinians off the map.

They could have accomplished it a thousand times by now, if that were truly the goal (and remember, the Palestinian population continues to increase every year).

However, walls and checkpoints are needed, because the Palestinians (or at least their militants and leaders) DO have the goal of blowing up every possible Israeli, and would go to any lengths possible to do so.

[Chulanowa]

33. Ah yes, if Hamas gets a nuke...

You must love that word, "if" - it provides all sorts of justification, doesn't it?

IF Iran is seeking to make nukes, and IF they succeed and IF they send one to Hamas and IF it isn't intercepted and IF Hamas decides to use it, and IF this happens about fifteen times, then sure. They might destroy Israel.

That's a lot of uses of "if" isn't it?

Israelis, in general, probably don't - I've maintained this, but given the results of the recent election, I've found this faith in the inherent goodness of the average Israeli somewhat challenged. I imagine many others in the world had the same sinking feeling when they heard the phrase "President-Elect George W. Bush" too.

Regardless of what the average Israeli thinks, it's clear what their government thinks. You can't look at the total blockade of Gaza, the land-theft walls and expanded colonies in the West Bank, and the platforms of two of the new leading parties in the Israeli government, and tell me there is any interest from Israel in a peaceful Palestinian state.

Why should Israel stain its already spotty image in the rest of the world with the total slaughter you and others seem to hope for every time you talk about Israel's "restraint"? Why should it waste ordinance and jet fuel and put its soldiers at risk, when it can just engage in economic and territorial warfare to purge Israel of the "problem"? Sure Israel has the military resources to slaughter the entire population of Palestine - and probably a few other neighbors - several times over. But that might manage to piss off even the United States, wouldn't it?

The difference between Hamas, and the Israeli government, is that the Israeli government has the resources to conduct ethnic cleansing without genocide.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.