What Iran’s Jews Say

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"At Palestine Square, opposite a mosque called Al-Aqsa, is a synagogue where Jews of this ancient city gather at dawn. Over the entrance is a banner saying: “Congratulations on the 30th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution from the Jewish community of Esfahan.”

The Jews of Iran remove their shoes, wind leather straps around their arms to attach phylacteries and take their places. Soon the sinuous murmur of Hebrew prayer courses through the cluttered synagogue with its lovely rugs and unhappy plants. Soleiman Sedighpoor, an antiques dealer with a store full of treasures, leads the service from a podium under a chandelier.

I’d visited the bright-eyed Sedighpoor, 61, the previous day at his dusty little shop. He’d sold me, with some reluctance, a bracelet of mother-of-pearl adorned with Persian miniatures. “The father buys, the son sells,” he muttered, before inviting me to the service.

Accepting, I inquired how he felt about the chants of “Death to Israel” — “Marg bar Esraeel” — that punctuate life in Iran.

“Let them say ‘Death to Israel,’ ” he said. “I’ve been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. I’ve visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.”

The Middle East is an uncomfortable neighborhood for minorities, people whose very existence rebukes warring labels of religious and national identity. Yet perhaps 25,000 Jews live on in Iran, the largest such community, along with Turkey’s, in the Muslim Middle East. There are more than a dozen synagogues in Tehran; here in Esfahan a handful caters to about 1,200 Jews, descendants of an almost 3,000-year-old community."

more

[ProgressiveMuslim]

1. How can this be? Isn't Iran maniacally anti-semitic??

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. Anti Israel is not necessarily anti Semitic - something the Israeli

and US right would have us overlook.

Before the revolution, Iran was actually on pretty good terms with Israel - only after the revolution (at a time that coincided with the invasion of Lebanon) did things get bad, and that was more because of a solidarity stand with Muslims than any particular hatred of Jews or liking for Arabs.

[Igel]

4. Old Russian saying.

Say one thing, think another, and do a third.

In other words, what you say is not what you think. And what you think doesn't necessarily determine what you'll do.

It's true in all societies where you don't have freedom or equality, and where you think some penalty will ensue if you don't tell those in charge how wonderful things are.

Now, the problem is that once you have that level of subterfuge it's hard to tell when it does and doesn't apply. Are they telling the truth?

That Persians can't vote for Jews is, well, a clue. "Equal rights" is a squirrelly term--once I heard some idiot try to say that "equal" didn't mean "the same," because, after all, his faith prescribed different rules for women and men. So women and men were completely "equal," in that they both fully enjoyed the rights permitted them. Truly a fool, not just an idiot.

[Lithos]

2. The question to ask is this

What do they publicly say and what do they privately say? If you read Marjene Satrapi's _Persepolis_, you will notice how she full illustrates the public and private lives of her family, a group of secular leftist intellectuals. Of note to this article is how they must adapt a public face inside of the RW totalitarian and theocratic Iran that is radically different from the lives they lead privately.

L-

[oberliner]

6. Also a good idea to speak to Iranian Jews who have immigrated to the US and elsewhere

They tend to have a different take on things as well.

[Prometheus Bound]

11. That sounded like a good idea, so I did some reading

Predictably, the older generations with ties to Iran care about both Iran and Israel, whereas those born in the US direct all of their loyalties to Israel. One surprising figure is that Iranian Jews make up 1/4 the population of Hollywood CA.

Iranian Jews in U.S. Grapple With Crisis
By NAHAL TOOSI
The Associated Press
Monday, August 7, 2006; 2:17 PM

GREAT NECK, N.Y. -- Eighty-year-old old Manoochehr Omidvar _ a serene presence if there ever was one _ has witnessed many things, but these are especially strange and troubling times for him and other Iranian Jews living in America.
...Make no mistake _ by and large, Iranian American Jews are fervent supporters of Israel. The community, an estimated 60,000 to 80,000 strong, has raised millions for the country it considers a spiritual homeland. They have no sympathy for Hezbollah.

As for Iran, that is a more complex subject. Iranian Jews may disdain Iran's hardline rulers, but there is much respect and affection for Iran the country and the culture, especially among the elder generation.

"I miss Iran," said Nasser Rahmani, 64, who left the country almost 20 years ago. "I miss the dust and the water."

...Parents try to transmit their ethnic as well as religious traditions to children, even if it is just through Persian cooking or music. It is not unusual to see Iranian Jews in a rally supporting Israel, which is home to some 200,000 Jews of Iranian descent. At the same time, they may root for Iran in the World Cup.

..."We're Jews, but we're Iranian," said Houman Sarshar, a scholar who has written extensively about the community. "Everybody wants their children to speak Persian. Everybody's always reminding each other that they're Iranian. They want their children to marry Iranian Jews."

Iranian American Jews often note that before 1979, Jews lived relatively freely in Iran and the country had good relations with Israel. They point to 2,700 years of Jewish presence in the Persian land, predating Islam. They also note that at least 25,000 Jews still live in Iran, and that as a religious group, they are technically protected by the country's constitution.

..."The position we take is that we support what the majority of the Iranian people want for that country, which in essence translates into the ability of the majority to speak their mind _ a democracy," said Sam Kermanian, secretary general of the Los Angeles-based Iranian American Jewish Federation, which also has a New York counterpart.

...Nahid Rahimian, 36, left Iran almost four years ago and is now in Great Neck. She said the Jewish community in Iran is allowed to worship freely, "but you could only go so far."

...Some Iranian Jews refuse to entertain the hypothetical, saying it is too far-fetched. Others, apparently having heard this question before, pose one in return: "How can one choose between their mother and their father?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/07/AR2006080700611_2.html

Video: Persian Jews: A Political Paradox
By Rebecca Kaufman, Deena Guzder, July 26, 2007
http://newsinitiative.org/story/2007/07/23/persian_jews_a_political_paradox

Last update - 00:40 03/03/2008
Long-silenced Iranian Jews find their political voice in America
By Rebecca Spence, The Forward
...Observers are beginning to note that Iranian American Jews, with their numbers totaling nearly one-quarter of Beverly Hills' population, may present untapped potential as a powerful voting bloc on both the local and the national level - an opportunity not going unnoticed by a younger generation.

...A melange of cultural and historical factors has conspired to keep Iranian Jews away from political engagement. Those factors include political apathy - born of a system that allowed the Jewish community no political representation, save for one designated member of the Iranian parliament - as well as a fear that to engage with government is to tread in unsafe waters.

"On top of the general Iranian experience, which didn't prioritize political involvement because of closed doors, the Iranian Jewish experience is a much more compounded version of that, because Jews had to deal with the stigma of being Jews," said David Nahai, an Iranian Jew who was appointed by L.A.'s mayor, Antonio Villaraigosa, as CEO of the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power. "We're basically two generations out of the ghetto."

This negative view of voting and politics has not been confined to the older generation. Even the children of immigrants, the vast majority of whom arrived in America in the wake of the fall of the shah in 1979, have inherited their predecessors? prevailing attitudes.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959921.html

Specter of War Divides Iranian Jews in U.S.
Published August 28, 2008, issue of September 05, 2008.
Young and Old Split Over Using Force To Contain Tehran
“Older Iranian Jewish immigrants who were born and raised in Iran and care about the welfare of Iran and Iranians realize that an attack on Iran will only be a temporary fix, while American Jews of Iranian descent who are now in their 20s or early 30s are no longer Iranian,” said Pooya Dayanim, president of the L.A.-based Iranian Jewish Public Affairs Committee. “They’re American Jews who care about Israel and think that a pre-emptive attack by Israel or the United States is a good idea.”

Highlighting just how pronounced the generational divide is, several older Iranian Jews interviewed by the Forward declined to speak for attribution. Because they have relatives or friends still living in Iran — the remaining Jewish community there is estimated to number 25,000 people — many cited concerns that airing their opinions could harm those remaining in the country. Better, they say, to remain quiet.

Still, others, like George Haroonian, a former president of the Council of Iranian American Jewish Organizations who has long advocated speaking out against the Iranian regime, had no problem discussing the matter. Haroonian, 55, was less willing than his younger counterparts to consider the military option. “The change will come from within Iran,” said Haroonian, who came to America from Iran at age 17. “A military attack, even targeted attacks, would be disastrous.”

In interviews with the Forward, younger Iranian-American Jews — whose only connection to their ancestral home is often through their parents — were far more willing to support military action.
http://www.forward.com/articles/14107/

[Violet_Crumble]

14. How do you explain away the writers observations of his experience in the country?

Was he presenting a public rather than a private face as well?

[oberliner]

16. Not explaining away anything

It's just informative to speak with those who have left Iran to get a fuller picture of the what the situation is/was like there. They may feel freer to speak critically about the country if they no longer live there.

[Vegasaurus]

5. More of the article

(since there is constant denial of the number of Jews ousted from Arab lands):

Over the decades since Israel’s creation in 1948, and the Islamic Revolution of 1979, the number of Iranian Jews has dwindled from about 100,000. But the exodus has been far less complete than from Arab countries, where some 800,000 Jews resided when modern Israel came into being.

In Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Iraq — countries where more than 485,000 Jews lived before 1948 — fewer than 2,000 remain. The Arab Jew has perished.

[shaayecanaan]

7. No

(since there is constant denial of the number of Jews ousted from Arab lands):

No, what I disagree with is the use of the word `oust` and the simplistic and misleading comparison between the expulsion of the Arabs from Palestine and the exodus of Jews from the other middle eastern countries.

[oberliner]

8. Why do you disagree with the use of the word oust?

And what issue do you have with comparing the two situations you've identified?

[shaayecanaan]

9. Ive been through this before...

one of the drawbacks with this format is that discussions get buried and that accordingly you have to keep re-inventing the wheel each time a new post is made.

In short - the position of Jews in Arab lands in 1948 varied greatly from country to country. Only in Iraq did the exodus of the Jews resemble an expulsion. In the remainder of the Arab countries, including Morocco which had had close to half of the Arab Jewish population within its borders, the most frequently heard complaint was not that Jews were being expelled, but that they were being prevented from migrating to Israel.

It is true that many of the Arab states seized the lands of departed Jewish residents - but this is not the same as expelling them.

[oberliner]

10. Morocco was not one of the countries cited

Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Iraq were the ones mentioned in the piece.

You point out that the situation in Iraq resembled an expulsion.

I would argue that certainly the circumstances in Libya, Egypt, Tunisia could be characterized in a similar fashion.

In each country the Jewish population were victims of pogroms and were made to feel as if their continued presence in those countries would be unsustainable, and in some cases (Egypt certainly) their expulsion was threatened.

There are similarities to the situation for the Arabs who lived in Palestine during the same tired period. At least when compared with the specific countries identified above.

Also, it is worth noting that a sizable number of Arabs stayed in what became Israel after the 1948 war and continued to live there after Israel was established and now make up a community numbering over a million.

In four of the five countries listed in the piece, the Jewish populations dwindled to nothing.

[shaayecanaan]

12. re

In four of the five countries listed in the piece, the Jewish populations dwindled to nothing.

In many countries where Jews were not threatened their population dwindled to nothing (Armenia for instance).

I would imagine that if all Israeli residents were offered EU citizenship tomorrow probably at least 40% of them would take it, given time. I certainly wouldnt expect any Jew to remain in Tunisia if he had the opportunity to move to Israel, where the economic situation is clearly a lot better.

Algeria was not even an independent country in 1948. When Algeria became independent, just about anyone who could leave Algeria for France, did so. Are you suggesting this amounted to an expulsion?

The threatened expulsion of the Jews from Egypt took place in 1956, after Israel unilaterally decided to invade Egypt. Its a bit hard to sustain that this was deliberate government policy.

Likewise, there is a difference between the Dalet Plan, which was a systematic government policy of ethnic cleansing of Arabs, with the decision by Arab Jews to leave due to violence from Islamist groups (which is obviously distinct from government policy).

In relation to Iran, all Iranian Jews serve in the Army. Several of them are senior officers. Iranian Jews don`t have any restrictions on the purchase of land. They don`t get knocked back whenever they apply for a building permit. Iran`s treatment of its Jewish minority is on the whole far more progressive than Israel`s treatment of its Arab minority.

[Vegasaurus]

18. I don't know why you persist in posting untruths

HE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN SYRIA BEFORE 1948

The last Jews who wanted to leave Syria departed with the chief rabbi in
October 1994. Prior to 1947, there were some 30,000 Jews made up of three
distinct communities, each with its own traditions: the Kurdish-speaking Jews
of Kamishli, the Jews of Aleppo with roots in Spain, and the original eastern
Jews of Damascus, called Must'arab. Today only a tiny remnant of these
communities remains.

The Jewish presence in Syria dates back to biblical times and is intertwined
with the history of Jews in neighboring Eretz Israel. With the advent of
Christianity, restrictions were imposed on the community. The Arab conquest
in 636 A.D, however, greatly improved the lot of the Jews. Unrest in
neighboring Iraq in the 10th century resulted in Jewish migration to Syria
and brought about a boom in commerce, banking, and crafts. During the reign
of the Fatimids, the Jew Menashe Ibrahim El-Kazzaz ran the Syrian
administration, and he granted Jews positions in the government.

Syrian Jewry supported the aspirations of the Arab nationalists and Zionism,
and Syrian Jews believed that the two parties could be reconciled and that
the conflict in Palestine could be resolved. However, following Syrian
independence from France in 1946, attacks against Jews and their property
increased, culminating in the pogroms of 1947, which left all shops and
synagogues in Aleppo in ruins. Thousands of Jews fled the country, and their
homes and property were taken over by the local Muslims.

For the next decades, Syrian Jews were, in effect, hostages of a hostile
regime. They could leave Syria only on the condition that they leave members
of their family behind. Thus the community lived under siege, constantly
under fearful surveillance of the secret police. This much was allowed due to
an international effort to secure the human rights of the Jews, the changing
world order, and the Syrian need for Western support; so the conditions of
the Jews improved somewhat.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN EGYPT PRIOR TO 1948

Jews have lived in Egypt since Biblical times, and the conditions of the
community have constantly fluctuated with the political situation of the
land. Israelite tribes first moved to the Land of Goshen (the northeastern
edge of the Nile Delta) during the reign of the Egyptian pharaoh Amenhotep IV
(1375-1358 B.C).

During the reign of Ramses II (1298-1232 B.C), they were enslaved for the
Pharaoh's building projects. His successor, Merneptah, continued the same
anti-Jewish policies, and around the year 1220 B.C, the Jews revolted and
escaped across the Sinai to Canaan. This is the biblical Exodus commemorated
in the holiday of Passover. Over the years, many Jews in Eretz Israel who
were not deported to Babylon sought shelter in Egypt, among them the prophet
Jeremiah. By 1897 there were more than 25,000 Jews in Egypt, concentrated in
Cairo and Alexandria. In 1937 the population reached a peak of 63,500.
Friedman wrote in "The Myth of Arab Tolerance", "One Caliph, Al-Hakem of the
Fatimids devised particularly insidious humiliations for the Jews in his
attempt to perform what he deemed his roll as "Redeemer of mankind", first
the Jews were forced to wear miniature golden calf images around their necks,
as though they still worshipped the golden calf, but the Jews refused to
convert. Next they wore bells, and after that six pound wooden blocks were
hung around their necks. In fury at his failure, the Caliph had the Cairo
Jewish quarter destroyed, along with it's Jewish residence, in".

In 1945, with the rise of Egyptian nationalism and the cultivation of
anti-Western and anti-Jewish sentiment, riots erupted. In the violence, 10
Jews were killed, 350 injured, and a synagogue, a Jewish hospital, and an
old-age home were burned down. The establishment of the State of Israel led
to still further anti-Jewish feeling: Between June and November 1948, bombs
set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than 70 Jews and wounded nearly
200. 2,000 Jews were arrested and many had their property confiscated.
Rioting over the next few months resulted in many more Jewish deaths. Between
June and November 1948, bombs set off in the Jewish Quarter killed more than
70 Jews and wounded nearly 200.

Jews In 1956, the Egyptian government used the Sinai Campaign as a pretext
for expelling almost 25,000 Egyptian Jews and confiscating their property.
Approximately 1,000 more Jews were sent to prisons and detention camps. On
November 23, 1956, a proclamation signed by the Minister of Religious
Affairs, and read aloud in mosques throughout Egypt, declared that "all Jews
are Zionists and enemies of the state," and promised that they would be soon
expelled.

Thousands of Jews were ordered to leave the country. They were allowed to
take only one suitcase and a small sum of cash, and forced to sign
declarations "donating" their property to the Egyptian government. Foreign
observers reported that members of Jewish families were taken hostage,
apparently to insure that those forced to leave did not speak out against the
Egyptian government. AP, (November 26 and 29th 1956); New York World
Telegram).

In 1979, the Egyptian Jewish community became the first in the Arab world to
establish official contact with Israel. Israel now has an embassy in Cairo
and a consulate general in Alexandria. At present, the few remaining Jews are
free to practice Judaism without any restrictions or harassment. Shaar
Hashamayim is the only functioning synagogue in Cairo. Of the many synagogues
in Alexandria only the Eliahu Hanabi is open for worship.

By 1957 it had fallen to 15,000. In 1967, after the Six-Day War, there was a
renewed wave of persecution, and the community dropped to 2,500. By the
1970s, after the remaining Jews were given permission to leave the country,
the community dwindled to a few families. Jewish rights were finally restored
in 1979 after President Anwar Sadat signed the Camp David Accords with
Israel. Only then was the community allowed to establish ties with Israel and
with world Jewry. The majority of Jews reside in Cairo, but there are still a
handful in Alexandria. In addition there are about 15 Karaites in the
community. Nearly all the Jews are elderly, and the community is on the verge
of extinction.

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN IRAQ PRIOR TO 1948

The Iraqi Jews took pride in their distinguished Jewish community, with it's
history of scholarship and dignity. Jews had prospered in what was then
Babylonia for 1200 years before the Muslim conquest in AD 634; it was not
until the 9th century that Dhimmi laws such as the yellow patch, heavy head
tax, and residence restriction enforced. Capricious and extreme oppression
under some Arab caliphs and Momlukes brought taxation amounting to
expropriation in AD 1000, and 1333 the persecution culminated in pillage and
destruction of the Bagdad Sanctuary. in 1776, there was a slaughter of Jews
at Bosra, and in bitterness of anti Jewish measures taken by Turkish Muslim
rulers in the 18th century caused many Jews to flea.

The Iraqi Jewish community is one of the oldest in the world and has a great
history of learning and scholarship. Abraham, the father of the Jewish
people, was born in Ur of the Chaldees, in southern Iraq, around 2,000 A.D.
The community traces its history back to 6th century A.D, when Nebuchadnezzar
conquered Judea and sent most of the population into exile in Babylonia.
The community also maintained strong ties with the Land of Israel and, with
the aid of rabbis from Israel, succeeded in establishing many prominent
rabbinical academies. By the 3rd century, Babylonia became the center of
Jewish scholarship, as is attested to by the community's most influential
creation, the Babylonian Talmud.

Under Muslim rule, beginning in the 7th century, the situation of the
community fluctuated. Many Jews held high positions in government or
prospered in commerce and trade. At the same time, Jews were subjected to
special taxes, restrictions on their professional activity, and anti-Jewish
incitement among the masses.

Under British rule, which began in 1917, Jews fared well economically, and
many were elected to government posts. This traditionally observant community
was also allowed to found Zionist organizations and to pursue Hebrew studies.
All of this progress ended when Iraq gained independence in 1932.
In June 1941, the Mufti-inspired, pro-Nazi coup of Rashid Ali sparked rioting
and a pogrom in Baghdad. Armed Iraqi mobs, with the complicity of the police
and the army, murdered 180 Jews and wounded almost 1,000.

Although emigration was prohibited, many Jews made their way to Israel during
this period with the aid of an underground movement. In 1950 the Iraqi
parliament finally legalized emigration to Israel, and between May 1950 and
August 1951, the Jewish Agency and the Israeli government succeeded in
airlifting approximately 110,000 Jews to Israel in Operations Ezra and
Nehemiah. This figure includes 18,000 Kurdish Jews, who have many distinct
traditions. Thus a community that had reached a peak of 150,000 in 1947
dwindled to a mere 6,000 after 1951.

Additional outbreaks of anti-Jewish rioting occurred between 1946-49. After
the establishment of Israel in 1948, Zionism became a capital crime.
THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN IRAQ AFTER 1948
In 1950, Iraqi Jews were permitted to leave the country within a year
provided they forfeited their citizenship. A year later, however, the
property of Jews who emigrated was frozen and economic restrictions were
placed on Jews who chose to remain in the country. From 1949 to 1951, 104,000
Jews were evacuated from Iraq in Operations Ezra and Nehemiah; another 20,000
were smuggled out through Iran. In 1952, Iraq's government barred Jews from
emigrating and publicly hanged two Jews after falsely charging them with
hurling a bomb at the Baghdad office of the U.S. Information Agency.
With the rise of competing Ba'ath factions in 1963, additional restrictions
were placed on the remaining Iraqi Jews. The sale of property was forbidden
and all Jews were forced to carry yellow identity cards. After the Six-Day
War, more repressive measures were imposed: Jewish property was expropriated;
Jewish bank accounts were frozen; Jews were dismissed from public posts;
businesses were shut; trading permits were cancelled; telephones were
disconnected. Jews were placed under house arrest for long periods of time or
restricted to the cities.

Persecution was at its worst at the end of 1968. Scores were jailed upon the
discovery of a local "spy ring" composed of Jewish businessmen. Fourteen
men-eleven of them Jews-were sentenced to death in staged trials and hanged
in the public squares of Baghdad; others died of torture. On January 27,
1969, Baghdad Radio called upon Iraqis to "come and enjoy the feast." Some
500,000 men, women and children paraded and danced past the scaffolds where
the bodies of the hanged Jews swung; the mob rhythmically chanted "Death to
Israel" and "Death to all traitors." This display brought a world-wide public
outcry that Radio Baghdad dismissed by declaring: "We hanged spies, but the
Jews crucified Christ." (Judith Miller and Laurie Mylroie, Saddam Hussein and
the Crisis in the Gulf, p. 34).

Jews remained under constant surveillance by the Iraqi government. Max
Sawadayee, in "All Waiting to be Hanged" writes a testimony of an Iraqi Jew
(who later escaped): "The dehumanization of the Jewish personality resulting
from continuous humiliation and torment...have dragged us down to the lowest
level of our physical and mental faculties, and deprived us of the power to
recover.".
In response to international pressure, the Baghdad government quietly allowed
most of the remaining Jews to emigrate in the early 1970's, even while
leaving other restrictions in force. Most of Iraq's remaining Jews are now
too old to leave. They have been pressured by the government to turn over
title, without compensation, to more than $200 million worth of Jewish
community property. (New York Times, February 18, 1973).
Only one synagogue continues to function in Iraq, "a crumbling buff-colored
building tucked away in an alleyway" in Baghdad. According to the synagogue's
administrator, "there are few children to be bar-mitzvahed, or couples to be
married. Jews can practice their religion but are not allowed to hold jobs in
state enterprises or join the army." (New York Times Magazine, February 3,
1985).

In 1991, prior to the Gulf War, the State Department said "there is no recent
evidence of overt persecution of Jews, but the regime restricts travel,
(particularly to Israel) and contacts with Jewish groups abroad.".
Persecutions continued, especially after the Six-Day War in 1967, when many
of the remaining 3,000 Jews were arrested and dismissed from their jobs.
Finally In Iraq all the Jews were forced to leave between 1948 and 1952 and
leave everything behind. Jews were publicly hanged in the center of Baghdad
with enthusiastic mob as audience.

The Jews were persecuted throughout the centuries in all the Arabic speaking
countries. One time, Baghdad was one-fifth Jewish and other communities had
first been established 2,500 years ago. Today, approximately 61 Jews are left
in Baghdad and another 200 or so are in Kurdish areas in the north. Only one
synagogue remains in Bataween, - once Baghdad's main Jewish neighborhood.-
The rabbi died in 1996 and none of the remaining Jews can perform the liturgy
and only a couple know Hebrew. (Associated Press, March 28, 1998).

THE PERSECUTION OF JEWS IN ALGERIA PRIOR TO 1948

Jewish settlement in present-day Algeria can be traced back to the first
centuries of the Common Era. In the 14th century, with the deterioration of
conditions in Spain, many Spanish Jews moved to Algeria. Among them were a
number of outstanding scholars, including the Ribash and the Rashbatz. After
the French occupation of the country in 1830, Jews gradually adopted French
culture and were granted French citizenship.

On the eve of the civil war that gripped the country in the late 1950s, there
were some 130,000 Jews in Algeria, approximately 30,000 of whom lived in the
capital. Nearly all Algerian Jews fled the country shortly after it gained
independence from France in 1962. Most of the remaining Jews live in Algiers,
but there are individual Jews in Oran and Blida. A single synagogue functions
in Algiers, although there is no resident rabbi. All other synagogues have
been taken over for use as mosques.

In 1934, a Nazi-incited pogrom in Constantine left 25 Jews dead and scores
injured. After being granted independence in 1962, the Algerian government
harassed the Jewish community and deprived Jews of their principle economic
rights. As a result, almost 130,000 Algerian Jews immigrated to France. Since
1948, 25,681 Algerian Jews have emigrated to Israel.

http://www.hsje.org/jews_kicked_out_of_arab_countrie.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Do you know the difference between the words 'oust' and 'exodus'? n/t

[oberliner]

15. To oust is to drive out - the Jews were driven out of the countries identified

You disagree with this?

[shaayecanaan]

21. Do you recognise the difference...

between a deliberate government policy of expulsion, as in Iraq, and the election by Jews in other Arab countries to move somewhere where they justifiably felt they would be more secure?

Ostensibly, the very idea of the establishment of Israel was that Jews would move there, no? And presumably those Jews who were geographically closest to Israel would be most inclined to move there?

The Egyptian Jews can go on a bus tour of their former homes whenever they like. The Egyptian government is on record as saying that any Jew who left is welcome to return. Why then, the insistence that any Palestinian right of return be accompanied by a Jewish right of return to the Arab lands, when that right already exists?

There are those of us who have the intellectual credibility to not compare, say, the nakba to the holocaust. I would imagine there are those on your side of the ideological divide that would likewise have the honesty to not compare two instances that are clearly distinguishable. Are you one of them?

[oberliner]

22. Of course there is a difference

Each of the countries listed approached their Jewish populations in different ways. In all cases, however, the governments in questions took steps to drive the Jews out of their countries (i.e. "oust" them). Many of these steps took place prior to the establishment of the state of Israel and were, as you suggested, part of the impetus for its creation. You will note the role of the various pro-Nazi regimes that came into power in the region, as in Tunisia, Libya, and Iraq.

The forced migration of the Jewish communities across the Arab world is a tragedy that peace activists have written about and lamented.

To quote one such activist, Ada Aharoni:

Taking into account the forced migration of the Jews from the Arab countries as part of the tragedies incurred during this long and painful conflict would give a better chance to peace.

[shaayecanaan]

23. No

In all cases, however, the governments in questions took steps to drive the Jews out of their countries

No, they did not. You have already tacitly admitted that no Jews were ousted from Morocco. Morocco had the largest population of Jews by far, about one-third of the total of Arab Jews. Obviously, if you are insisting that 800 000 Jews were ousted from their homes, that is clearly incorrect.

Do you think that the 2 million Sunni refugees in Syria and Jordan were ousted from Iraq?

[oberliner]

24. You were the only person who brought up Morocco

Neither the author of the OP nor I made any claim about Jewish people being ousted from that country.

Five countries were identified in the piece - Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Iraq.

I have not read enough about Sunni refugees in Syria and Jordan to answer your other question.

[shaayecanaan]

25. That is dishonest...

The poster above said:-

since there is constant denial of the number of Jews ousted from Arab lands

and then cited the figure of 800 000, which constitutes the 260 000 Moroccan Jews as well as the smaller populations in the other countries.

The allegation clearly being made was that all those Jews had been expelled. That is clearly false.

I have not read enough about Sunni refugees in Syria and Jordan to answer your other question.

A bit of a cop out, surely, or have you actually been living under a rock? I`ll humour you nevertheless:-

There has been a war in Iraq the past few years that was initiated by the US. During the course of that war, significant sectarian violence broke out between Shia and Sunni Muslims living in Iraq. Most Sunnis live in the `Sunni Triangle` however there were also a significant population living in and around Baghdad. Due to instability many of those people left to go to many places, but chiefly among them Syria and Jordan, who have accepted close to 2 million Sunni refugees between them.

Do you consider that those people were `expelled` and if so, do you consider that the US was responsible for their expulsion, given that the US was the effective government for much of the time?

[oberliner]

26. Thank you for your informative response

I apologize for any confusion regarding Morocco.

I appreciate your elucidation on the Sunni refugees. It does not sound from your description like they were expelled from Iraq by the United States.

[Vegasaurus]

27. There were about 850,000 Jews

living in lands that were stolen from them when they were ousted or left.

Are you denying the fact that there is only a fraction of the Jews in any Arab country today?

Under 2000 is what I have read, which means 830,000 JEws were forced to leave Arab countries, without any compensation.

Of course, they aren't living in fetid refugee camps either, 60 years later, but they still had their homes and possessions stolen from them.

[Vegasaurus]

19. Oust: pushed out

Exactly what happened.

[ohio2007]

17. mullahs still getting dumb asses to do the "death to America" cheer or is Hollywoods apology going

to heal all wounds with their 'biased' twist of ancient and modern history ?

Iran wants apology from Hollywood team

The art advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad urged a visiting Hollywood delegation to apologise for "insults and slanders" about Iranians in films, the ISNA news agency reported on Saturday.
"(Iranian) cinema officials will only have the right to have official sessions with... Hollywood movie makers when they apologise to the Iranians for their 30 years of insults and slanders," Javad Shamaghdari said.

"The Iranian people and our revolution has been repeatedly unjustly attacked by Hollywood," he said, citing '300' and recent Oscar nominated movie 'The Wrestler' as among offending films.

In 2007, the war epic '300', a smash hit in the United States for its gory portrayal of the Greco-Persian wars, drew the wrath of Iranians for showing their ancestors as bloodthirsty.

Similarly 'The Wrestler', was booed in Iran and heavily criticised for the scene of breaking and tearing of the Iranian flag by the picture's star, 2009 Oscar nominee Mickey Rourke.

"We will believe (US President Barack) Obama's policy of change when we see change in Hollywood too, and if Hollywood wants to correct its behaviour towards Iranian people and Islamic culture then they have to officially apologise," Shamaghdari added.


snip

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.2b0b8bd405048e19f36fa896834ca058.9b1&show_article=1

hey,
at least Hollywood didn't "burn the Iranian flag......now that would have been really eally insulting....mother of all insults....
oh
and a

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS4v_kj9rw4
death to america



thats Hollywood, if they can't take a joke....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi1ZNEjEarw&feature=related

[GoesTo11]

20. The Iranian gov't is a pillar of religious tolerance, and is the best friend of the Jewish people.