I'm looking for a reliable, unbiased source for the conflict

[laura888]

I'm in an on-going debate with someone over the I/P debate.

I'm looking for a book/source to provide dates, maps, etc. on the history of the conflict. He spouts plenty of "facts" and yet, I have no way of knowing if they are factual.

What is, in your opinion, a good book to get to explain the history of the I/P conflict?

[La_Serpiente]

1. I found this link

However, it seems to have a little Israeli bias to it.

http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

This is the history of it.

[laura888]

2. from the first sentence of your "a little" biased" link:

<snip>
Take a close look at this PRESENT DAY MAP of the Middle East in which you can see that 22 Arab and/or Muslim nations completely engulf Israel. If someone can explain to me how "expansionist Israel" has "taken over" the Middle East, please email me!
</snip>


please - only serious replies

[tinnypriv]

5. Those are some of the stupidest maps I've ever seen in my life

Gaza literally disappears on one of 'em!

[Aidoneus]

14. a little?

full bore looney, they are. Not just "a little Israeli bias" to it.

[Resistance]

17. It is beyond bias on that site

Check out where the author says "sharing was not part of the Arab psychological makeup then nor now."

Oh, so that's the problem - "Arabs" just don't know how to share.

[Saudade]

19. masada2000

The nutjob who owns this website is associated with Kahane Chai and remnants of the Kach party, both listed as terrorist organizations by the US State Dept.

[Lithos]

23. Enough about masada2000

I think laura888 has already rejected this as a source.

Lithos

[tinnypriv]

3. You couldn't read just one

You have to read a lot.

For example, The Iron Wall is a good book, yet the author Avi Shlaim is in love with Ehud Barak's "generous" offer. Fateful Triangle by Chomsky is good, however it focuses too much on Lebanon. Tom Friedman's Beruit to J is again, good, but idiotic in places. Even Dore Gold's screed on Saudi Arabia is helpful (-ish!) in places.

Etc.

If you PM me (I assume this will be locked pronto) with something specific with regards to a certain topic/point, I can recommend books for that.

I suspect the person you're debating is only googling answers anyway though. If they're not a lunatic, it should be reasonably easy to refute whatever points they're making - that is, if they sound especially partisan. I'm guessing that they do.

[The Magistrate]

10. 'The Iron Wall'

Is indeed a useful book, Mr. Priv. Prof. Schlaim seems in some regards a little too trusting for my taste, but the work is sound as to fact.

[tinnypriv]

15. Agreed

The section on the 1971 Egyptian peace offer is especially useful in my opinion.

[TimeLord]

29. Norman Finkelstein covers that in:

His book, "Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict."

[The Magistrate]

34. Finkelstein Is For More Advanced Students, Mr. Lord

If you do not know your way about the place already, it will be difficult to make good use of him.

[tinnypriv]

36. Great minds etc

;-)

Guess I am 1 minute slower though..

[TimeLord]

37. The Magistrate, I only meant it that he covers...

...the 1971 Egyptian peace proposal. Not as a first book for information in a debate. I apologize for the confusion.

[Lithos]

41. agreed

Finkelstein does require quite a bit of preliminary reading before you are able to judge his work. Definitely required reading, but it should not be the first book you read especially considering that he spends a good deal of time talking about other books on the subject.


Have you, or anyone for that matter, read Uri Milstein's 4 volume set on the History of Israeli Independence? I've wanted to buy it, but the price tag is very steep.

L-

[The Magistrate]

42. No, Sir

It is a bit beyond my resources as well.

It would probably give you the upper hand on us all, should you acquire it....

[TimeLord]

44. I haven't seen it.

But thanks. I'll be on the look out for it.

[tinnypriv]

47. I've read IV

Not I, II or III.

I think a two-line comment wouldn't do it justice. It's certainly detailed (where is the "shock" icon?) :D

You end up feeling like you know what each Haganah guy had for breakfast.

Difficult to recommend without reading the others (I'll echo the "way too fucking steep" $$$ comments). Only needed if you want to feel like you know more about 1948 than your own life.

I can't find a library that has it either. Bugger. Then again, I do live in a town the size of a postage stamp.

[tinnypriv]

35. He does

But Norman's book is better for those already with substantial knowledge of the conflict, IMO.

For a basic history, 'The Iron Wall' does it better, considering the way the chapters are structured. Also, Image and Reality is rather short.

[Lithos]

4. LOL

I will allow this thread provided it doesn't stray.

My own recommendations for a first pass of study are:

1) David Fromkin's "A Peace to End All Peace"
2) Noam Chomsky - "Fateful Triangle"
3) David Schipler's "Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land".

The last one won the pulitzer prize.

Realize that one book is not going to get you the full picture. In addition to these three, there are many others which are good for various reasons. Some are flawed and need to be taken in a relativistic sense, but still good.

L-

[Jim Sagle]

7. I'm glad I scrolled down to here; I was about to alert on the thread.

:o

[rini]

28. Good choices

Much as I dislike Chomsky,and like Frommkin, they are a good balance to each other.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuctapeFatwa]

8. Try Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, etc

they all have information.

[DuctapeFatwa]

11. oh and the UN, they have human rights reports too

all have some comments about both sides.

http://www.sustaincampaign.org is a good place to get information about the role your tax dollars play in the conflict, if you are in the US, it is "biased" in the sense that it is against the US govt funding it, but it's a good jumping off point for getting an idea about how all the bills (of the Israeli side) are paid.

[Darranar]

9. There are no "reliable, unbiased sources" out there...

on this issue. It's like looking for a bright purple elephant.

Some are better than others, though. Human Rights Watch is pretty objective, and any information you find on both pro-Palestinian propaganda sites and pro-Israel propaganda sites has a good chance of being legitimate.

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. good point, both will tell you some things

and leave out some things.

Arutz Sheva will say the army "successfully thwarted an attack, Palestinians said 3 terrorists died."

Hamas will say "The Zionist Occupation forces murdered a mother and her two children, ages 3 and 6 in cold blood"

Reuters will say "Palestinian and Israeli sources indicated a woman and two youths were killed by tank fire. The IDF had no immediate comment. Israeli sources said the area is frequented by stone-throwing youths."

CNN will say "there were unconfirmed reports that 3 Palestinians died during an Israeli military operation."

Al Jaz will say "A mother and her two small children were killed when Israeli soldiers fired tanks into a crowded refugee camp. Witnesses said the firing appeared to be random. The Israeli military had no immediate comment but security sources claimed the area is a "breeding ground" for terrorists."

[TimeLord]

30. What?

Israeli soldiers fired tanks into a crowded refugee camp

Fired tanks? Is that possible? I don't think that would hold up as reliable.

[bluesoul]

31. Typo

I think it ment "fired tank shells" ;-)

[TimeLord]

33. Oh. I'm particularly dense today.

Doh!

Thanks.

[DuctapeFatwa]

40. well I guess I'm outed as a weapons expert now

No use trying to hide it any longer.

[Fight_n_back]

13. Me! ME!

Im the unbiased source!!!

The only way to get unbiased information is to read as much as possible and realize that none of it is true.

Attempt to strip as much of your prejudices as you feel comfortable with and then view everything sceptically.

Haaretz is a liberal newspaper in Israel and has edtiorials from the left, right, Jews, Arabs and the Guardian is a liberal English paper with good reporting. Most of the Arab press is state owned so is less reliable. One has to read it like a CIA analysts, looking for the hidden messages of what is REALLY being said or not said.

[bpilgrim]

50. lol

good one :toast:

peace

[Resistance]

16. Benny Morris' book "Righteous Victims"

Is probably as unbiased (and thorough) as you'll ever see.

[Adalah]

18. Haaretz

is probably the best source for current news. It's reliable and presents diverse views.

Note: The Jerusalem Post is a larger and probably more comprehensive source for news. But be advised it's quite conservative in it's editorial content and will slant the news to the right.

[Saudade]

20. Tanya Reinhart

Tanya Reinhart's "Israel/Palestine: Winning the War of 1948" is depressing to read, but only because the truth is so awful.

[Violet_Crumble]

27. I found it depressing too...

But it is a really good book. I was going to pop up and recommend the Iron Wall and Fateful Triangle to Laura, but they've been mentioned already. When it comes to the media, Laura should keep an eye on Ha'aretz, the Age (www.theage.com.au) and the Sydney Morning Herald (www.smh.com.au), which are all credible and reliable sources, and most importantly none of them are the US media which I have concerns about the credibility of...

Violet...

[Resistance]

21. quick comment on "bias"

Generally, any sympathy shown towards one side will be seen as a "bias" in their favor by the fiercer partisans, and that is regardless of whether or not the source is sympathizing with both sides.

One unbiased source online is www.mideastweb.org

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. Yes! Case in Point: World Food Program, there's a thread about it now

And other NGO's, as well as the UN, whenever they report on conditions in Palestine, are immediately denounced as "biased" by the Israeli government.

Although if you read Amnesty, you will see that they do not cut Palestine any slack, nor does HRW, but whatever they say about the PA violating rights tends to get eclipsed by the isnotistooing over Israel's doings.

[The Magistrate]

24. That Is True, Mr. Resistance

Indeed, a useful trick for a neophyte would be to read propagandas of both sides, and while throwing out the most outlandish allegations, rather like the highest and lowest scores called by a panel of judges in figure skating are discarded before calculating the average, treat the remainder as true from both sides and merge them into a single account.

It is always difficult to recommend source material with any confidence, because what people get out of a source depends greatly on what they bring to it, by way of discernment between statement of fact and commentary and conclusion, general knowledge and practical experience, and political sophistication.

"When confronted with conflicting views of an incident, choose the one which shows people at their worst."

[laura888]

38. The site you mentioned has an "in a nutshell..."

...version of the I/P conflict:

http://www.mideastweb.org/nutshell.htm

[The Magistrate]

39. The History Linked To By The 'Nutshell', Ma'am

Is a pretty good one.

[sabbat hunter]

25. unbiased

from what i have seen there are very few if any 'unbiased' sites. they all seem to take one side or the other. i think the best bet is to investigate as many sources as possible, from both sides and reach your own conclusions.
Why do i say that there are no unbiased sites? because humans are not robots, machines or vulcans. anything we see gets slanted due to emotion and our biases. It is up to those who want to gain knowledge to look at all sources and make our own decisions.

that is why i watch right wing faux news in addition to looking at more liberal sources. I have to make my own decisions, by learning as much as possible.


peace
david
:hippie:

[methinks2]

26. try cactus48

It has some history and first hand observations. Also "onevoice" this is the one Brad Pitt and other celebrities prefer. I just signed the petition on that site today.

[TimeLord]

32. Link to onevoice please?

I googled but came up with various sites. I want to make sure I go to the one you went to.

Thanks, in advance.

[Matilda]

43. Links to a couple of very good unbiased websites

that give clear and concise summaries of the history and the current
issues.

One is MERIP (Middle East Research and Information Project) which is
an excellent site for briefings on all Middle East news; they are
currently featuring a history of the Arab/Israeli conflict here:

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/intro-pal-isr-primer.html

The other is one of the links to a report put out by a group named
Jews for Justice in Palestine, which I've seen reproduced on a
number of websites. Here is one link to the complete report:

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/earlyhistory.html

I also think Noam Chomsky's The Fateful Triangle is excellent.

[TimeLord]

45. Yes. Jews for Justice for Palestine is an excellent source.

I've read that about a year ago. Thanks for the link as I might need to read it again!

[The Magistrate]

46. Neither Of These Sites

Can be remotely considered as un-biased.

The Middle East Research and Information Project is somewhat the better of the two, as its history merely glosses over some relevant points. The second actively argues a case, and in doing so ommits much, and gilds other points to enhance their favorability to that aim.

[Matilda]

52. I did say they were concise.

Neither article goes into great depth about this extremely complex
saga, but they do provide a very good basic historical overview,
and are a good place to start. To explore in greater depth and to
try to understand the passions driving the conflict, it's necessary
to read books which will go into much greater detail. Or maybe go
and live there for a while, and make up one's own mind. It is very
hard to find books which don't, in the end, come down on one side
or the other to some degree; it's a difficult topic to study and
not form an opinion one way or the other.

[The Magistrate]

53. It Is Possible To Be Concise, Ma'am

And still present information without any great favoring or shading. The first does less of this than the second, but even it would leave a person relying on it in debate open to effective riposte by a person familiar with either neutral, or pro-Israeli, accounts. The second is no better than "Facts and Logic About the Middle East" in a mirror, and cannot really even serve as a good guide for further study.

[bpilgrim]

48. Middle East Illusions: Including Peace in the Middle East?: Reflections on

Middle East Illusions: Including Peace in the Middle East?: Reflections on Justice and Nationhood by: Noam Chomsky

more...
http://www.boondocksnet.com/cb/apfh-item_id-0742526992-search_type-image-locale-us.html

a noted liberal jewish-american political author/speaker.

peace

[Darranar]

49. I haven't read the whole thing...

but I've read bits and pieces of that book.

Chomsky is great, and when it comes to American/Western foreign policy and hypocrisy in the Middle East and elsewhere he's largely right, but he can't be considered by any stretch of the imagination to be unbiased. And no, this conclusion isn't simply from reading bits and pieces of that book...

[bpilgrim]

51. i said LIBERAL

i thought the auther of this post was going against a winger...

besides, EVERYTHING is biased and you can't go wrong if you want to get up to speed quick with a RELIABLE SOURCE.

:hi:

peace