Iraqis See Israel as Culprit in Bombings

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq30oct30,1,2275679.story?coll=la-headlines-world

They argue that the ensuing chaos would benefit the Jewish state and say that U.S. forces have a responsibility to provide security.

BAGHDAD — As the bombing disaster early this week is cemented into people's consciousness, three emotions dominate: anger, ambivalence about the U.S. role in Iraq and a desire to lay blame at the door of adversaries rather than fellow Muslims.

"I am sure that the people who did this are enemies of Iraq, not the enemies of the Americans," Dunya Khalil Ismail, a 28-year-old college lecturer, said as she left work Wednesday. "Whether it was the Israelis or the Americans themselves, they are aiming at us.

"It started with the war, and this is just another stage," she said. "I don't know what can be done. The Americans have everything in their hands."

Ismail is one of many people here — rich and poor, religious and secular — who see Israel as being behind the suicide bombings Monday at the International Committee of the Red Cross and three police stations, which killed at least 35 people and wounded more than 200. It might be an idea that seems farfetched to many Americans, but seen through Iraqi eyes, it has a kind of logic.

more

[hang a left]

1. I am an American and it doesn't seem farfetched to me.

[TAH6988]

2. Yeah let's

blame it on the Jews...it must be their fault (sarcasm on).

[Jacobin]

9. You mean they are immune from blame?

Let's hide our heads in the sand for fear of offending the Wolfowitz, Perle, Kristol, Sharon, PNACers. They aren't behind PNAC. No. Can't say that.

That's the ticket. Yeah. anti-semitism. Just say it and everyone must shut up. No discussions here.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TAH6988]

18. They are immune from blame,

as is everyone else, until you have this little thing called EVIDENCE.

[Blitz]

12. Well, color me unsurprised

Also, you may not find it farfetched that Israel blew up the World Trade Center:

http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/10-21-01/discussion.cgi.89.html

http://memri.org/AntisemiticMythBook/introduction.html

The Jews were responsible for WWII:

http://www.smcm.edu/academics/soan/smp/jewish_resilience/propaganda%205.htm

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb1.htm

The Jews are responsible for the Ecstasy trade, torturing animals, and ruining the sexual happiness of American men:

http://www.geocities.com/GAZUnited/

Oh, and locally, Israel has been picking on its poor Arab Country naighbors for the last couple of decades:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=176438#176495

US soldiers are dying in Iraq FOR ISRAEL:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=25614#25711

And Israel is the real beneficiary of the Iraq war:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=25614#25915

I could go on and on and on just from my bookmarks, but you get the idea. It doesn't seem farfetched to you and, rest assured, you're not alone, either on DU or in the world at large.

[mumon]

15. You got at least 2 right!

US soldiers are dying in Iraq FOR ISRAEL.

Yep. You bet your ass they're not dying for America or Iraq, and if you look at PNAC's agenda...

And Israel is the real beneficiary of the Iraq war.

You bet your ass they are; their oppression of the Palestinian people and continued land theft have gotten only worse.

[Blitz]

20. Yup, that's right, PNAC is just a bunch of sneaky Jews!!

It's right there in the Protocols, don't you know! In fact, General Sharon is in Baghdad right now, deciding on U.S. troop movements and planning to kill a few more Americans to get sympathy for Israel. That's the ticket!

Oh, and Israel wanted a major war on its doorstep so that it could oppress the poor, innocent Palestinians some more. It didn't worry at all about promised WMD attacks against it or being hit by repeated missile attacks, as it was during the first Gulf War because, lord knows, those evil Zionists don't care about their lives or their children's lives so long as they get to oppress Palestinian widows and orphans for no reason at all and maybe perpetrate another holocaust, just like they did in Jenin.

You're really on top of it. Keep up the good work exposing those Zionist Jew bastards!!

[tinnypriv]

33. "THE MOST POWERFUL IN THE MIDDLE EAST" - (after Iraq) - Israeli press

"After Iraq, Israel stronger; her neighbours weakened"

...

"The U.S.-led victory in Iraq is one of the reasons for a major strategic shift in Israel´s favor"

...

See Ma'ariv Hebrew, Sept 22nd (http://images.maariv.co.il/cache/ART543405.html)

Or DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=15302

Israel is not the "real" beneficiary of the Iraq war (and that is your phrase, not the poster you quote), however it is a huge one.

That is just a fact.

[pakaya]

40. I am not surprised by this statement:

Think twice who is the most beneficer from this war? Iraqis? USA and Isrelis.

[Democat]

3. Israel attacking the Red Cross in Iraq?

I very much doubt it.

A stable secure Iraq, controlled by U.S. forces would be best for Israel, wouldn't it?

[NNN0LHI]

5. Why would a stable secure Iraq need to be controlled by U.S. forces?

If everything was going great in Iraq there would be no need for American forces to be there, would there be?

Listen. I don't buy this theory. But if the Iraqis do, we are screwed. The appearance of something can be worse that the truth in situations like this.

Don

[Democat]

6. I'm just trying to think of what would be best for Israel

Why would Israel want Iraq to be in chaos and not under U.S. control?

The U.S. and Israel are close allies. If your ally controls another country, it is better for you than if someone else does.

[0007]

8. The folks in Israel & Ireland should change places

maybe that would work?

Mark Twain first suggested it about 100 years ago.

[sushi]

46. Iraq should be under

the control of the Iraqis. The sooner the better.

[loudnclear]

13. IDF have killed Red Crescent and journalists and peace activists

What is so far-fetched about this assertion. Israeli forces just recently swept through a Palestinian hospital, bombed Plasestinian police stations, and blown up Palestinian security force headquarters. Do you need any more specifics?

[The Magistrate]

38. Let Us Be Clear Then, Ma'am

Do you believe the recent demolitions of humanitarian facilities and police stations in Baghdad were carried out by Israeli agency?

No quibble about elsewhere: do you believe these demolitions in Baghdad were carried out by Israeli agency?

If your answer is yes, Ma'am, it will be abundantly clear what the real basis for your views in the matter of Israel v. Palestine is, and that will not be forgotten.

[Resistance]

43. what exactly

would be abundantly clear, in your view, Magistrate?

[Blitz]

45. Speaking only for myself

and about no DUer or person in particular, I would say that with respect to anyone who seriously believed that Israel, directly or indirectly, ordered or perpetrated the bombings and murders at the UN in Baghdad, at the Red Cross in Baghdad, at the various police stations in Baghdad or at any of the other facilities that have been the sites of the murder and destruction of recent days and weeks, it would be abundently clear (to me, that is) that the person in question is an anti-semite, a complete idiot or, most likely, both.

[mumon]

14. ROTFLMAO!

Your second sentence is an oxymoron.

Which would you like? A stable secure Iraq OR one that is "controlled" by U.S. forces (itself an oxymoron!)?

"Israel" doesn't want a "stable, secure Iraq."

They want a weak, insecure, un-stable Iraq.


A stable, secure Iraq would become a strong Iraq, and would be able to use its strength to see eye to eye with the land-stealing, terrorists who run the state of Israel.

[Democat]

16. An Iraq shaped by the U.S. would be good for Israel, right?

The bombings are making the U.S. weaker. In theory, Israel should want the U.S. to be stronger in the middle east, not weaker.

Why would Israel want he U.S. to get our asses kicked?

It doesn't make sense.

[mumon]

32. They want us to be distracted

while they continue to kick the shit out of the Palestinians, whose only "crime" is wanting their own nation.

[The Magistrate]

39. Actually, Fellow

No distraction is needed, and you know it damned well. This sort of nonesense is nothing but a cover for what can be called only, at best, a delusional view of the world and its ways.

If you want to discuss Israel v. Palestine, by all means, come down to the dungeon, and have at it....

[sushi]

47. Have you asked Iraqis

if they want to be "shaped" by outsiders? Outsiders they call infidels?

[rman]

24. Israel is looking for an excuse to attack Syria

..so now they found a Syrian terrorist involved in bombings in Iraq.

And i doubt very much they want stabilty. Weapons trade is only really profitable when the weapons are being used, since using them means they need to be replaced.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

4. deja vu

"Who will benefit if chaos weakens Iraq? Again, Israel, because it will feel safer."

certainly Islamic fascists couldn't be behind the bombing, it's those sneaky conniving Jews again! this has a certain ring of familiarity to it.

One could just as easily make the leap in judgement to say that Islamic fascists bombed Iraqis so that Iraqis blamed the Israelis. Blaming Jews and Israelis is an instinctual reflex in the Middle East

[Dhalgren]

7. The Likud has put Israel in the position

that no one would anything past them. I don't believe Israel had anything to do with this - but are they capable of this kind of crime? I think yes they are. That is the problem with having a violence-based government - anything is possible. Someone might say that Israel would rather have a Vichy Iraq rather than a UN backed Islamic republic in Iraq. How can they insure that the US will stay in charge and not allow Iraq to go Islamic? This is where these ideas come from. I doubt that Israel had a hand in these bombings, but is it a ridiculous idea? No.

[sushi]

48. Interesting post!

:-)

[absolutezero]

10. I don't think so

Not suicide bombings, I wouldn't put it past Israel to do something like this in a gamble to keep US forces there longer in order to prevent Islamic fundies from taking over, but not with suicide bombers.
Besides, this kind of violence turns popular opinion AWAY from sending more troops, and keeping them there longer. The Israelis are ruthless, maybe a little crazy but not stupid

[loudnclear]

19. Nothing should be taken for granted or considered "far-fetched"

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C1494EA5-ADDD-43D8-B507-FDFCCC48A9A2.htm

If a so-called 'democracy' is capable of this. They are capable of anything.

[Blitz]

21. Capable of what, exactly?

The article that you linked to doesn't indicate or imply any wrongdoing by Israel. There was a prison riot. It was put down. Deadly force was apparently not used. What's the problem?

[benderlane]

30. Blitz - you forget...

people seem to think that tear gas is a chemical weapon..

[Lurking Dem]

22. This thread is incredibly ugly.

(I'm not aiming this at you NNNOLHI - just tacking it on the lead post.)

I even have my cell phone playing Hava Nagila since so many of you seem to think we have some kind of Jewish Bat Phone to alert us to the latest scheme from PNAC and Mossad.

MOST of the PNAC members are Christians, btw.

[Blitz]

25. No uglier than usual:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=481349

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8391&forum=DCForumID30&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=8362&forum=DCForumID30&archive= (IDF worse than the Klan)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7515&forum=DCForumID71&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7555&forum=DCForumID71&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=7595&forum=DCForumID71&archive=

http://www.democraticunderground.com/cgi-bin/duforum/duboard.cgi?az=show_thread&om=2079&forum=DCForumID70&archive=



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43534

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=8045

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=18259

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=21474

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=8654

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=11198

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=9229

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=9333

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=21394

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=168585

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=108055

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=167147

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=127067

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=111662

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=125314

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=104378

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=168598

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=90436

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=104544

There's a lot more, but I need to work . . .

[Lurking Dem]

28. Sigh

I'm going to go read a copy of New Jew Review and dream about a Kosher deli (none here).

http://www.heebmagazine.com/whatis.php

[tinnypriv]

31. Real ugly thread here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=108055

Nothing in it.

Did you just run a search and figure nobody would check your half-assed links?

Back to work, eh? :)

[Blitz]

35. You know, that is a remarkably dense comment

Nothing in it, huh? I bookmarked a thread and then it got moved by the moderator to another forum. If you click on the link, Einstein, you'll find a thread with 140 reply posts. Sorry about not holding your hand through that complicated process. Talk about half-assed.

On edit: You know, there's even a typically enlightened comment from you on that thread. Allow me to quote your wisdom:

tinnypriv (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-10-03 08:02 PM
Response to Original message

82. These so-called "pro-Israel" fucking Stalinists
Are absolutely repellent.



No, nothing ugly there because, obviously, pro-Israel=fucking Stalinists (note, this comment was not pulled).

[Lurking Dem]

36. I think maybe I'm developing

a rather bleak sense of inexorableness to this. Maybe it's helplessness.

I am a Zionist. I am proud of my Sephardic heritage. I am a Leftist and believe in a 2 state solution and that Palestinians should fucking stop blowing up innocent civilians and Sharon should dismantle the fucking settlements.

I should not have to explain to people why I feel uncomfortable going to an anti-war rally and having to stand next to someone with an Israeli flag with a swastika painted on it or a sign reading Kill the Zionist Pigs! I should not have to justify why I consider a statement posted on DU to be bigotted or hurtful.

Yet pointing this out has done no good in the past. It will do no good in the future. So I'll just continue to answer my Jewish Bat Phone when it rings and cash my voluminous checks from the Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy and people who don't like it can go fuck themselves blue.

[tinnypriv]

41. Because it broke no rules, batman

As for the link, since a mod had moved it before you posted a link to it from your bookmarks, what was to stop that same mod deleting all the "ugly" comments?

Hence, you directing people to that thread as being an example of "ugly content" without checking it first, is, oh I dunno, half-assed?

As for my post, you obviously didn't comprehend it. Don't worry though, I did hold your hand through explaining it down in the I/P dungeon.

Now, we also have perhaps an interesting logical fallacy in your post above. You say this post was a "typical" comment of mine.

Then you say (in I/P):

"In point of fact, I have not exchanges so much as two posts with the author of the post in the past"

Forgive me for saying, but I don't think you can have the first clue as to what constitutes a "typical" comment of mine if you haven't engaged any beforehand, can you?

:dunce:

Door. Ass. Etc.

[Blitz]

42. I do not typically reply to your posts

That hardly means that I have not read them and do not know what is par for your course.

As for the rest of your comments, it's not my purpose to get this thread locked so, as has been my practice with respect to your postings in the past, I'll let them go with all of the reply that they merit.

[rman]

26. many of the PNAC members and associates have links with Israel/Likud, btw

Wolfowitz has family in Israel, was choosen "man of the year" by the Jeruzalem Post. Richard Perle (American Enterprise Institute) used to be director of the Jeruzalem Post.
That's just a tip of the iceberg.

The whole notion of Foreign Afairs shifting from diplomacy to pre-emptive war is a typcal Sharon/Likud thing.

Anyone can call him/herself "Christian".

What about those "Zionist Christian Soldiers"; they don't portray themselves as enemies of zionism, on the contrary. Yet their 'battle' involves conversion of all jews to christianity because otherwise the jews go to hell once the end times arrive. And they want to help the end times arrive sooner rather then later. Wackos? Yes. Wackos being taken seriously by the Bush admin.

[TAH6988]

27. Where is your proof

That anyone who believes "their 'battle' involves conversion of all jews to christianity because otherwise the jews go to hell once the end times arrive. And they want to help the end times arrive sooner rather then later..." is taken seriously by the Bush admin??

[Lurking Dem]

29. Congratulations!

You have proven that right wing whackos - be they in Israel, the US of A, or Saudi Arabia, are right wing whackos!

Know your enemy. It is conservative right wing ideology in all its manifestations.

[The Magistrate]

37. A Question, Mr. Rman

Grant everything you say about "links" above: will you please tell me what any of that has to do with assertion that the recent demolitions of humanitarian agencies and police stations in Iraq were carried out by Israeli agency, which belief among some Iraqis is the substance of the article leading this discussion, and which some members of our forum have endorsed as a likely possibilty in fact?

[Frontier]

23. Forget the cries of anti-Semitism...

...lets just look at the facts for a moment.

It might be an idea that seems farfetched to many Americans, but seen through Iraqi eyes, it has a kind of logic.

It has a kind of logic? Logic is absolute. If someone uses skewed reasoning to build reality and draw conclusions, we call that a delusion... not a kind of logic. Flying elephants exists when viewed through the schizophrenic's "kind of logic", that doesn't mean you'll ever see one flapping past your 30th floor office window.

But, instead of discounting it out of hand, let's take a look at the LA Times explanation:

The reasoning goes like this: The people who masterminded the bombings wanted to hurt Iraqis, the vast majority of the victims. Who are Iraq's enemies? Israel is the one nearest at hand and the one that, it is widely assumed here, urged the U.S. to remove President Saddam Hussein.

Iraq's nearby enemies also include Iran, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, two of which spawn Muslim suicide bombers on a daily basis. When is the last time an Israeli drove a plane into a building, or raided a civilian housing compound to shoot and explode as many innocents as possible? And let's not forget the calls by various Muslim leaders for increased violence to coincide with Ramadan.

Who will benefit if chaos weakens Iraq? Again, Israel, because it will feel safer. And if Iraq is chaotic, it may force the Americans to keep troops in the country longer. Who wants American troops on Arab soil? Again, the answer is Israel.

A weakened Iraq benefits Syria, Iran and terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda much more than it does Israel. And, once again, those are all groups known to sponsor suicide bombing attacks against civilians.

The insanity continues when Mouwafak Rabii, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council asks, "Where are the checkpoints around Baghdad? Where are the surprise searches, the police dogs?" Hey Mouwafak, http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20031021/wl_nm/iraq_dc_3">remember this?

If the leaders and scholars expect all of the solutions (as well as the problems) to be foreign, what is the likelihood that those who follow them will realize their personal responsibilities in this struggle?

Like it or not, we're in this together (America and Iraq), and we need their help to be successful.

[drewb]

34. btt

[GabysPoppy]

44. I am locking this thread

The discussion has become vicious and is loaded with Personal attacks that are not allowed on the DU board. It has come time to end this thread.

GabysPoppy
DU Moderator