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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 01:56 PM
Original message
UN Security Council calls for a Palestinian state
<snip>

"The U.N. Security Council on Monday called for "urgent efforts" to create a separate Palestinian state and achieve an overall Mideast peace settlement.

In a statement by all 15 members read at the end of an open ministerial meeting, the council stressed that "vigorous diplomatic" action was needed to reach an overall settlement and a two-state solution. It encouraged the Quartet of Mideast peacemakers - the U.N., the U.S., Russia and the European Union - to continue their efforts to promote a comprehensive Mideast settlement.

"The council reiterates its call for renewed and urgent efforts by the parties and the international community to achieve a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East, based on the vision of a region where two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, will live side by side in peace, within secure and recognized borders," the statement said.

Speaker after speaker at the meeting of the Security Council warned of more violence unless efforts are made to restart Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, reconcile the divided Palestinian factions, and renew talks between Israel and Syria.

Israel's U.N. Ambassador Gabriela Shalev objected to the meeting, saying Israel doesn't believe the involvement of the Security Council contributes to the political process in the Middle East."

more
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MUAD_DIB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. WTF??!!
Israel's U.N. Ambassador Gabriela Shalev objected to the meeting, saying Israel doesn't believe the involvement of the Security Council contributes to the political process in the Middle East."


But it was alright when it acknowledged Israel's existence?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
2. The UNSC needs to make the Clinton Parameters a resolution
"The Clinton Parameters, which are the closest to an agreement that Israelis and Palestinians came to in December 2000, need to be endorsed by the international community (preferably through a Security Council resolution) as the internationally accepted interpretation of Resolution 242. The Parameters need to be the binding principles for a more detailed peace agreement. Although Geneva claims to have done just that, it is simply not the case. I can't elaborate here, but you can see that in my book."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/QA.jhtml?qaNo=109
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. So Shira just what are the Clinton Parameters?
Edited on Tue May-12-09 12:57 PM by azurnoir
You know the ones that can't be quoted ?

BTW you left out the first part of the quote

Shlomo Ben-Ami :
These are two most commendable initiatives. I am far closer however to the guiding concepts of People's Voice than to Geneva. Two simple principles - the Israelis would withdraw to the 1967 borders and the Palestinians would waive the right of return - are in my view far more powerful and convincing than the presumption of Geneva to get down to the most minute details of a peace settlement. The Geneva document is full of inconsistencies. I have analyzed them, I believe fairly exhaustively, in the last chapter of my book ("Hazit Lelo Oref" - "A Front Without A Rearguard").


It seems Ben Ami was mostly concerned with plugging his book
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. the Clinton Parameters
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. You know, I still don't understand why Barak just walked away from that.
It still looks like a great deal for Israel.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. lol....revisionism much?
Edited on Tue May-12-09 05:18 PM by shira
Barak accepted and Arafat rejected the parameters, and everyone knows this. It was the entire basis for Taba (to implement the parameters). It was as far as Israel could possibly go. Arafat wanted right of return, all of E.Jerusalem including the major settlements there, administration of all holy sites, etc. In other words, he wasn't budging from his maximalist demands. The Clinton Parameters weren't nearly enough for Arafat.

I don't understand why Arafat rejected it, went to war, and "pro-Palestinian" types applauded him for it.

Barak, OTOH, persuaded the Knesset to accept it - and they did.

Of course you're entitled to your opinions, just not your own facts. Gotta wonder why fantasy and fiction is what you wish to believe.

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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Revision of what?
Opinions are like rectal outlets, everybody has them. It is observably false that "everybody knows" Barak accepted those "principles" and that it was Arafat that "walked out". The subject is disputed here over and over. Hearsay is not facts. Prove it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. facts, not fiction
1. Dec 27, 2000: The Israeli security cabinet approved the Clinton Parameters that Barak agreed to.

2. Jimmy Carter admits in his book Peace/Apartheid, Arafat rejected the Clinton Parameters.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Well, I'm glad to see you like Jimmy Carter.
He's a heck of a guy, I like him too. If he says Arafat rejected the Clinton parameters, then I figure it must be the truth. I thought that was a good book myself.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I was certain YOU liked Jimmy Carter and that's why I brought him up
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:48 AM by shira
Do you still buy that Barak walked out on the Clinton Parameters?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I don't think there is any question that he did.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 08:19 AM by bemildred
Like I said, that has been chewed over peretty thoroughly here in the past. He chickened out at the end, just like he did in the Syria talks.

I'm sorry to hear your support for Jimmy Carter is based on mere expediency.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. but that makes no sense
He agreed to the Clinton Parameters and the Israeli security council also approved of it. It was Arafat who rejected it. If anything, Barak felt he was wasting time at Taba (as Shlomo ben Ami stated) b/c Arafat was never going to try to work within the Parameters. I don't see how you can say Barak chickened out, as if Arafat was ever serious about the Clinton Parameters.

My opinion on Carter is based on his tendency to make up his own facts about I/P. I don't see why anyone would expect diplomacy with Israel to be based on fiction and not facts.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. You seem comfortable enough with Carter's facts when they agree with your own views.
Barak is a proven liar and dissembler, much like Arafat actually, but on the other side.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I brought up Carter because you still respect his views, therefore YOU would accept the fact
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:49 PM by shira
that Arafat rejected the Clinton Parameters based on testimony you trust (for some reason).

I could quote Dennis Ross or Shlomo ben Ami also stating that Arafat rejected the Parameters, but I figured you'd be less likely to question Carter than Ross or ben Ami.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. But I am not arguing that Arafat did not reject the "Clinton Parameters".
I said Barak walked away from the peace table, an obvious fact.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. but that's so warped
Edited on Wed May-13-09 06:26 PM by shira
the whole point of Taba was to work along the Clinton Parameters. Arafat wanted no part of that. I don't see how you can say Barak just "walked away from the peace table" when Arafat was the rejectionist who wanted MUCH more than the Parameters. How do you see Barak taking the blame for that, as if Arafat was there to honestly cut a peace deal?

In fact, it takes nerve to twist Taba around in order to blame Barak:

Israel formally accepted the Clinton Parameters on December 27 (with reservations that Ross noted were within the areas left for further negotiation under the Parameters).

Clinton called Arab leaders on a daily basis to urge them to convince Arafat to accept the Parameters, getting backing from Mubarak of Egypt, Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, and King Abdullah of Jordan. On December 29, Ross met with Ahmed Qurei, the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, to warn him of the consequences of a Palestinian rejection -- Sharon would be elected and would withdraw Barak’s offer, and the new Bush administration, having seen Clinton offer what they viewed as too much, and then seeing Arafat stiff Clinton anyway, would have no desire to involve themselves in the issue.

Arafat was invited to the White House to give his response. A week after the deadline, in a face-to-face meeting with Clinton on January 2, 2001, Arafat rejected the Parameters -- refusing to recognize an Israeli claim to the Western Wall, rejecting the most basic elements of Israeli security needs, and dismissing the Clinton refugee formula. Ross wrote that “All these were deal-killers.”

Arafat thereafter rejected even an offer by Clinton to fly to Israel to meet one last time with Barak and Arafat, and further rejected an Israeli suggestion to produce a joint letter to Clinton summarizing areas of agreement and baselines for future negotiations. It was a total and complete rejection of the peace effort, with full knowledge of the consequences, after Israel had accepted the Clinton Parameters.

All of this is a matter of record in Ross’s book.
Ross summarized it by writing that, with its December 27 action, “Barak’s government had now formally accepted ideas that would effectively divide East Jerusalem, end the IDF’s presence in the Jordan Valley, and produce a Palestinian state in roughly 97 percent of the West Bank, and 100 percent of Gaza” (page 755 -- emphasis added).

In his autobiography (“My Life”), Clinton wrote that “Arafat’s rejection of my proposal after Barak accepted it was an error of historic proportions” (pages 944-45 -- emphasis added).

http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2006/12/carters_maps_wo.html
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Clearly it conflicts with your worldview.
I thought you were done with me after I pointed out that the IDF started the 1967 war?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. so based on what you just read, you still think Arafat was an honest broker for peace at Taba?
and that "if only" Barak hadn't left 2 days early....who knows? Even though Arafat completely rejected the Parameters?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. What is your thing about Arafat?
All I said is that it looks like a great deal for Israel and I didn't see why Barak gave up on it. I am perfectly well aware that Arafat was not happy with it, it was not a great deal for him. How many times do you think you need to repeat that?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. but Barak didn't "give up" on it. It had no chance of being accepted by Arafat.
Edited on Wed May-13-09 07:01 PM by shira
Thus, Taba was a waste of time. Barak and the security council had a difficult enough time accepting the Parameters. What in the world makes you think that with Arafat rejecting them and wanting MUCH more that further peace talks would have been successful?

It's not so much I have anything against Arafat. I don't understand why people are so willing to defend Arafat and even go so far as to congratulate him for rejecting the deal and going to war instead. Barak went further with the Parameters than any other Israeli head of state. Arafat was getting calls from leaders worldwide to accept the Parameters. If anything, Barak should get recognition for what he tried to do. But everything is twisted and turned around. I don't get why anyone reasonable would want to believe Barak is to blame for the failed peace talks. I don't get why anyone would want to stand up for Arafat, as though he was there to really make a peace deal. He failed his people in an EPIC way.

I ask you: if YOU were in charge of the PA and could make the final decision, would you agree to the Parameters and work to implement them with Israel for real peace and an end to the conflict, or would you reject them and consign yourself to maybe another decade or two of more war and suffering for Palestinians?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Here's another guy you won't like:
Politicus Interruptus

Uri Avnery

23.2.02

http://gush-shalom.org/archives/article183.html
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:46 AM
Original message
you're right.....he's full of it too
Edited on Thu May-14-09 05:03 AM by shira
The sides were nowhere close on just the following.

1. Right of return
2. Command of holy sites
3. Security after withdrawal

All deal-breakers.

Nine years later the PA still wants right of return, command of all holy sites, etc. All are still deal-breakers. What on earth makes you believe a few more weeks would have resolved this? The sides are still too far apart on just these issues, not to mention East Jerusalem.

And why didn't you answer the bolded part of my last response to you?
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
36. Hey, you ignore what I say, I ignore what you say, seems fair to me. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. i'm just trying to understand how you rationalize your views, that's all
Edited on Thu May-14-09 07:16 PM by shira
It appears you don't like it when your views are challenged.

Maybe you realize you cannot defend your views and are therefore embarassed to try?

I expect this from RW or non-intellectual critics of Israel. They argue from ignorance, ignore evidence in favor of what they want to believe, and cannot distinguish truth from falsehood. Over here, everything is just a matter of opinion, none better than the other - there is no real assessment of the relative merits of any argument - and whatever passes for groupthink is ideal. It's anti-intellectual.

And you guys, like the RW followers of Buchanon, etc. wonder why your views aren't shared by more people.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Well, good luck, I sympathize with your struggle, it must be frustrating for you. nt
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. this is the actual quote from Jimmy Carter in his book
Edited on Wed May-13-09 09:36 AM by Douglas Carpenter
"Later, during his last months in Washington, President Clinton made what he called his final proposal. Eighty percent of Israeli settlers would remain in the West Bank, and Israel could maintain maintain its control of the Jordan River valley with an early-warning cability within the West Bank with an additional provision for emergency deployment to meet security needs. The new state of Palestine would be demilitarized, with an international force for border security and deteterrence and Palestinian sovereighnty over their air space - except for special arrangements to meet Israeli training and operational needs.

In Jerusalem, the Arab neighborhoods would be administered by the Palestinians and the Jewish neighborhoods by Israel, with Palestinian sovereignty over the Temple Mount and Israeli sovereignty over the Western Wall and the "holy place" of which it is a part. Palestinian refugees could return only to the West Bank and Gaza. It stipulated that, if accepted, this agreement would replace all the requirements of U.N. resolution that applied to the Middle East. There was no clear response from Prime Minister Barak, but he later stated that Israel had twenty pages of reservations. President Arafat rejected the proposal.

As President Clinton made efforts to promote peace, there was a 90 percent growth in number of settlers in the occupied territories with the greatest increase during the administrations of Prime Minister Ehud Barak. By the the end of the year 2000, Israeli settlers in the West Bank and Gaza numbered 225,000 (please note: this does not include those in East Jerusalem which would bring the total to about 400,000) The best offer to the Palentinians -by Clinton, not Barak-had been to withdraw 20 percent of the settlers, leaving more than 209 settlements , covering about 10 percent of the occupied land to be "leased" and portions of the Jordan River valley and East Jerusalem.

The percentage figure is misleading, since it ususally includes only the actual footprint of settlements. There is a zone with a radius of about four hundred meters around each settlement within in which Palestinians cannot enter. In additon, there are other large areas that would have been taken or earmarked to be used exclusively by Israel, roadways, that connect the settlements to one another and to Jerusalem, and "life arteries" that provide the settlers with water, sewage, electricity and communicaitons. These range in width from five hundred to four thousand meters, and Palestinians cannot use or cross many of these connecting links. This honeycomb of settlements and their interconnecting conduits effectively divide the West Bank into at least two noncontiguous areas and multiple fragments, often unihabitable or unreachable, and control of the Jordan River valley denies Palestinians direct eastward access to Jordan."

From page 150 and 151 of Palestine Peace Not Apartheid by Jimmy Carter

Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Peace-Apartheid-Jimmy-Carter/dp/B001SARCHA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242223442&sr=1-2

Powell's Books - link:

http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780743285025-13

Barnes and Noble - link:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Palestine-Peace-Not-Apartheid/Jimmy-Carter/e/9780743285032/?itm=8

.




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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Carter deliberately lied for reasons unknown
Edited on Wed May-13-09 05:32 PM by shira
Carter:

There was no clear response from Prime Minister Barak , but he later stated that Israel had twenty pages of reservations. President Arafat rejected the proposal.

. . . The best offer to the Palestinians – by Clinton, not Barak – had been to withdraw 20 percent of the settlers, leaving more than 180,000 in 209 settlements, covering about 10 percent of the occupied land, including land to be “leased” and portions of the Jordan River valley and East Jerusalem.

. . . This honeycomb of settlements and their interconnecting conduits effectively divide the West Bank into at least two noncontiguous areas and multiple fragments, often uninhabitable and unreachable, and control of the Jordan River valley denies Palestinians any direct access into Jordan. . . .



This must set a new world’s record for substantive errors packed into three short paragraphs: (1) the Israeli cabinet formally accepted the Parameters on December 27, and both Clinton and Ross thought Barak’s response was clear; (2) under the Parameters, 100% of the settlers would be gone from a Palestinian state covering 94-96% of the West Bank; (3) there would be no “honeycomb” of settlements dividing the West Bank; (4) Carter’s 10% figure is double the 4-6% figure expressly set forth in the Parameters; (5) no portion of the Jordan River Valley was to be permanently retained by Israel; (6) even the “small Israeli presence” for security purposes would be withdrawn within a fixed period; and (7) the Palestinians would have direct access to Jordan along the entire border.

http://jpundit.typepad.com/jci/2006/12/carters_maps_wo.html

Check the link to see how Carter mangled Dennis Ross' maps. I don't see how anyone can take Carter seriously on anything I/P related when he uses faux facts so frequently.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. I believe Jimmy Carter over AIPAC's Dennis Ross
Since you guys always accuse our side of lying, I will do the same to you.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. that's exactly why I quoted Carter regarding Arafat's rejection of Clinton's Parameters
Edited on Wed May-13-09 06:42 PM by shira
look at posts #16 and #20 again. You still trust Carter?
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Do you really buy that bullshit about Barak's "generous offer?"
And you know where Clinton can shove his parameters.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. yes, I do.....why do you think it's a crappy deal that Clinton should have shoved?
Edited on Wed May-13-09 07:02 PM by shira
look at the bolded question in post #27.

How would you answer that if it were all up to you?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. the Myth of the Generous Offer
Edited on Thu May-14-09 02:24 AM by Douglas Carpenter


July/August 2002


The Myth of the Generous Offer
Distorting the Camp David negotiations




By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."



regarding the Taba Talks:

Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.

Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip:"Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

-----------

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman

.....

Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements


January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks." link:

http://premium.europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/06/mideast.palestinians.02/index.html

"Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes." link:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

/



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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. sorry, this is bullshit. The PA still calls for Right of Return and command of Jewish sites
Edited on Thu May-14-09 05:51 AM by shira
Nine years after Camp David and Taba.

From the article:

It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain.

They still remain. Nine years later.

They remain because just days before Taba, Arafat flatly rejected the Clinton Parameters:

http://www.peacelobby.org/clinton_parameters.htm

Barak didn't get "cold feet".

Arafat rejected the Clinton Parameters and Barak gets the blame according to you guys. :eyes:
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
35. IDF Commander: Israel Provoked Second Intifada:

Collision course


By Yotam Feldman

link: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=936744

"From his home on the Upper Galilee road between Safed and Rosh Pina, as Brigadier General (res.) Zvika Fogel looks out over Lake Kinneret, the Gaza Strip seems a distant memory. But four years after Fogel retired from the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), Gaza continues to preoccupy him. He became chief of staff of Southern Command headquarters in February 2000, and in the past few years he has reflected a great deal on the actions he and his fellow officers carried out in the months that preceded the eruption of the second intifada, at the end of September 2000. His conclusion: the IDF created an irreversible situation that led to a confrontation with the Palestinians.

Fogel analyzes - in military present tense - the developments in the months that preceded the eruption of the second intifada. "The conceptual sequence is that we are creating the conditions for a confrontation by the very fact of our preparations," (IDF General) Fogel says. "It is clear to everyone that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy. We want to decide which event would foment the explosion. All we have to do is say what will launch it and then behave as we have planned."

Even if that was not the Palestinians' intention?

"Exactly."

Was the course the IDF embarked on a one-way street?

"I am afraid that I have to say yes.
I don't see a situation in which, in July-August, someone says, 'Dismantle the forward posts, we are going back to joint patrols.' People would have looked at you like you were tipsy." "


link to full article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=936744

.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-12-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. The deal sucked for Palestinians
Edited on Tue May-12-09 06:27 PM by azurnoir
too many maybes and only 80% of settlers removed?
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-13-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
29. Not even all the Americans thought the Clinton proposal was fair
Edited on Wed May-13-09 07:44 PM by shaayecanaan
from Ross' book:-

"Aaron (Miller) was always arguing for a just and fair proposal... that the Palestinians were entitled to 100 percent of the territory. Swaps should thus be equal... on the basis that every other Arab negotiating partner had gotten 100 percent. Why should the Palestinians be different? I disagreed."

Sounds reasonable to me. If Israel was to get 4-6% of the West Bank, why shouldnt the Palestinians get 4-6% of Israel? Why should Israel get paid at double rates?

The proposal was fundamentally inequitable. I certainly see no basis for why the Security Council should adopt it.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. the passageway from Gaza to the W.Bank amounts to 100%
From Shlomo ben Ami:

Clinton also introduced into this formulation the concept of the safe passage route -- over which Israeli sovereignty would be ethereal -- it could be argued that the Palestinians got almost 100 percent. Clinton constructed his proposal in such a way that if the Palestinians' answer was positive, they would be able to present the solution to their public as a solution of 100 percent.

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. That's incredibly dishonest of you.

You're deliberately obfuscating the difference between "100% of the West bank" and "Land equal in surface area to 100% of the West Bank" - which is an *incredibly* different matter, in a region where some land is so much more valuable both in terms of fertility and of location than other bits.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. I was responding to 100% based on land swaps
but now I'm curious, do you think Palestine should consist 100% beyond the '67 borders, as if the 1948 armistice lines are sancrosanct?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Close to.
I think that any variations from those borders will need to be accepted by both sides, rather than imposed on one by the other.

It may be that Israel will be willing to offer the Palestinians land of equal value inside the Green line to the land it wants to keep outside it, but the Palestinians have no moral obligation to accept and should not be pressured to if they choose not to.

Conversely, I do not think that Israel should be pressured to give up land inside the Green Line - as part of any peace deal, the Palestinians will have to acknowledge that that land is lost to them for good and will remain Israel in perpetuity.
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. Thats not in the Clinton parameters...
I also find it hard to imagine how a safe passage route could amount to 3% of the area of the West Bank, unless it was very wide.

In either event, this is just sophistry attempting to disguise what is in effect a two-for-one deal in favour of the Israelis.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-14-09 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Shlomo ben Ami says it was
and had Arafat accepted the Parameters, he still could have worked with the Israelis to get exactly 100% - so long as he was working within the Parameters and not holding out for maximalist demands like right of return, etc.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-11-09 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
3. U.N.'s Ban urges Israel to change settlement policy
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on Israel on Monday to "fundamentally change its policies" on settlements and prove its commitment to a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Addressing a Security Council debate on the Middle East, Ban also demanded an end to Palestinian rocket attacks on Israel and said the Palestinian Authority must develop an effective security structure and state institutions.

But Ban's remarks appeared to focus more on Israel's obligations as he urged the parties and world powers to kick-start a fresh attempt to resume stalled Middle East peace negotiations and achieve a settlement.

At the ministerial-level meeting called by current Security Council president Russia, but boycotted by Israel, speaker after speaker affirmed support for a two-state solution in which a new Palestinian state would exist alongside Israel.

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE54A5MQ20090511
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