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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 08:47 AM
Original message
Netanyahu should admit Israel doesn't want peace

By Gideon Levy, Haaretz Correspondent


(snip)

... The truth is liberating. Such a step will free the prime minister from domestic and international pressure. There will be no further need to freeze construction in the settlements and in the next minute declare them "national priority zones." There will be no further need to send apologetic inspectors on bizarre treks across the West Bank. No further need to rip up construction-freeze orders in front of the cameras and argue that we are a state of laws; that now there is a freeze, but it will be immediately followed by massive construction.

The settlers will have no further need for their ridiculous protests or for lying down on the road screaming in unison. Netanyahu will no longer have to call them "brothers" and then bring in the police against them. There will also no longer be a need to continue using the phrase "without preconditions" while decisively changing the situation on the ground over and over. And there will be no need to support a referendum bill and then immediately order that its passage be delayed, as is the case with Netanyahu.

The curtain will fall. The performance will be over. It will then be possible for the makeup, masks and costumes to be removed and to follow the straight and narrow. Then, maybe for the first time in his life, Netanyahu will be convinced of the power of truth.

An Israeli leader who speaks the truth will also free himself of international pressure. The world will understand that it is dealing with a deep, continuing recalcitrance over peace that no pressure can overcome, so the world will throw up its hands and surrender. Some of the Arabs will do the same. They will all know there is a North Korean leader in Jerusalem who is as stubborn as a mule, that most of his Israeli subjects don't want the likes of him and don't want change. The world, which has bought Israel's web of lies and excuses, hasn't opened its mouth. This includes Europe, which is incapable of coming to a single firm and courageous decision, and America, which dances to the drum of the Jewish lobby - they will also be happy to be relieved of this deceptive burden.

Because that is the truth. We don't want peace. It's as simple as that. It's good for us to wallow in the current situation. There are no terrorist attacks so there are no Arabs. Life is a bowl of cherries, so why change? Society is comatose. It doesn't object and doesn't even ask, led like a flock of sheep, not asking why we need a freeze if at the same time more and more of its funds will be allocated to the settlements in huge quantities.

They don't ask why it's okay for the West Bank settlement of Kiryat Arba and not for Kiryat Shmona. They don't care at all what is happening in their backyard and don't wonder why the whole world disapproves of us. They just want to enjoy life, and who cares about two states or the end of the occupation? Netanyahu should speak this truth in his high-profile speech...

read on...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1134593.html
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-13-09 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. Pelsar, I'd love your feedbackon this, as you've said as much: It's good for us to wallow in the
current situation.

This piece makes the case for BDS stronger than any I've seen.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. uh...you're actually ENCOURAGING Pelsar to post on this?
n/t.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Good article, but Gideon Levy made a mistake, in my view in saying "Israel"
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 03:33 AM by Ken Burch
rather than "the (Israeli) government".

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 06:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. 80% of the people of Israel were quite satisfied with the results last January.
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 06:37 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
I think one can safely say that the country as a whole has no motivation whatsoever to challenge the status quo.

Pelsar has admitted as much.

I don't think I see the difference between the "government" and the people as clearly as you do. The same illegal activities -- violent military occupation, house demolition, land expropriation, settlement expansion, administrative detenion, theft, murder, etc. -- take place under Labor, Likud, Kadima, Peres, Barak, Olmert, Netanyahu...

Other than Meretz, and perhaps the arab parties, who doesn't share the blame?

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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. Netanyahu should admit Israel doesn't want peace
"Tomorrow will mark six months since the prime minister's foreign policy speech at Bar-Ilan University. It's now time for another historic speech. In the near future, the prime minister needs to convene the right audience, find a fitting site and deliver the speech of a lifetime. We don't want peace, he should say, going down in history as the first Israeli leader to tell the truth, the whole truth. In contrast to the superficial "two states for two peoples" speech, this time his remarks will be full of significance, showing real intent. The speech will inspire a great deal of trust and more than a little sympathy for a man speaking the truth."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1134593.html

(The first four paragraphs don't do this article justice, so I've just posted a taster and a link).
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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. the Israeli people and the government are not the same thing
the people want peace.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Not if the way they vote is anything to go by.
At the last election, parties genuinely trying to make peace with the Palestinians won less than 25% of the vote.

If anything, the Israeli government is under more pressure from its right than its left at present.
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unabelladonna Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. oh please.....
levy is a simplistic drama queen. what is his solution? calling out mr. netanyahu is so predictable for whiners of his ilk who seem to believe peace can be achieved only if israel capitulates.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Um... Peace *can* be achieved only if Israel capitulates.
It's not "whining" to point out that for as long as Israel continues its current treatment of the Palestinians there is no hope of peace. And since there is no way anyone if going to force Israel to change its ways, the only hope for peace is if it does so voluntarily - what you dub "capitulation".
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safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Jihadist do not capitulate.
Only liberals and pragmatist do.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Muslim states renew support to Arab peace drive


Muslim states renew support to Arab peace drive with adverts in Turkey


link: http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/10604381.asp?gid=244

The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) and the Arab League reiterated Friday their support to an Arab initiative for peace, formulated at an Arab summit in Beirut in 2002, by publishing full-page ads in Turkey's Hurriyet daily.

The Saudi-initiated plan offers Israel normal ties with Arab countries in return for the full withdrawal from all lands occupied in the 1967 Middle East war

The initiative is recently being pushed by Palestine with the support of other Arab states. The advertisement, framed with the flags of 57 Arab and Islamic countries, was also published in Israel’s daily Hebrew last month.

Israel, who rejected the Arab peace initiative in 2002, is split over the initiative these days.





The Arab Peace Initiative, 2002


link: http://www.al-bab.com/Arab/docs/league/peace02.htm

Official translation of the full text of a Saudi-inspired peace plan adopted by the Arab summit in Beirut, 2002.

The Council of Arab States at the Summit Level at its 14th Ordinary Session,

Reaffirming the resolution taken in June 1996 at the Cairo Extra-Ordinary Arab Summit that a just and comprehensive peace in the Middle East is the strategic option of the Arab countries, to be achieved in accordance with international legality, and which would require a comparable commitment on the part of the Israeli government,

Having listened to the statement made by his royal highness Prince Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz, crown prince of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, in which his highness presented his initiative calling for full Israeli withdrawal from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967, in implementation of Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338, reaffirmed by the Madrid Conference of 1991 and the land-for-peace principle, and Israel's acceptance of an independent Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital, in return for the establishment of normal relations in the context of a comprehensive peace with Israel,

Emanating from the conviction of the Arab countries that a military solution to the conflict will not achieve peace or provide security for the parties, the council:

1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

I- Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights, to the June 4, 1967 lines as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

II- Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

III- The acceptance of the establishment of a sovereign independent Palestinian state on the Palestinian territories occupied since June 4, 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

I- Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

II- Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.

4. Assures the rejection of all forms of Palestinian patriation which conflict with the special circumstances of the Arab host countries.

5. Calls upon the government of Israel and all Israelis to accept this initiative in order to safeguard the prospects for peace and stop the further shedding of blood, enabling the Arab countries and Israel to live in peace and good neighbourliness and provide future generations with security, stability and prosperity.

6. Invites the international community and all countries and organisations to support this initiative.

7. Requests the chairman of the summit to form a special committee composed of some of its concerned member states and the secretary general of the League of Arab States to pursue the necessary contacts to gain support for this initiative at all levels, particularly from the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States of America, the Russian Federation, the Muslim states and the European Union.






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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. "We will never give up on Palestine from the river to the sea"
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 02:39 PM by oberliner
"It is not enough for Hamas to liberate Gaza, nor to establish an emirate in Gaza, nor a state, nor an independent entity... Hamas strives to liberate all of Palestine."

- Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ilZQ7XerwrdkzgAsdW_fsNiWiR4w
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. that statement has nothing to do with what I posted or the post I was responding to
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 03:42 PM by Douglas Carpenter
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hamas has explicitly and repeatedly called for the end of Israel's existence
I believe this could hinder the success of the Arab Peace Initiative that you cited, especially in light of Hamas's electoral success and de facto control of Gaza.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Hamas would have no power if the Palestinian people didn't see with their own eyes
a relentless policy that makes a Palestian state completely implausible - a policy clearly backed by Israel's largest political parties
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. There have been plenty of opportunties for peace
that have been walked away from every time.

It's more difficult now, but there were not always walls, checkpoints, and West Bank settlers.

Even then, there was resistance and violence from the Palestinians who have always made clear their intentions: take back all of Israel.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. the only time Israel even came remotely close to offering a viable two-state solution
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 05:24 PM by Douglas Carpenter
was a brief period between December 23, 2000 and January 27, 2001. The Palestinians did not walk away. Israel did. This is all a matter of hitoric record. From practically the moment the Oslo Accord was signed up intil now the Istraeli state has relentlessly, relentlessly expanded, expanded and expanded its grip on power over the Occupied Palestinian Territories - so that now the plausibility is almost evaporated.

All the Palestinians and the Arab League and the international community are asking for and have been asking for some time is a tiny but genuinely independent Palestinian state about one fifth the size of Israel.



July/August 2002

The Myth of the Generous Offer:
Distorting the Camp David negotiations


By Seth Ackerman

link:

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1113


The seemingly endless volleys of attack and retaliation in the Middle East leave many people wondering why the two sides can't reach an agreement. The answer is simple, according to numerous commentators: At the Camp David meeting in July 2000, Israel "offered extraordinary concessions" (Michael Kelly, Washington Post, 3/13/02), "far-reaching concessions" (Boston Globe, 12/30/01), "unprecedented concessions" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). Israel’s "generous peace terms" (L.A. Times editorial, 3/15/02) constituted "the most far-reaching offer ever" (Chicago Tribune editorial, 6/6/01) to create a Palestinian state. In short, Camp David was "an unprecedented concession" to the Palestinians (Time, 12/25/00).

But due to "Arafat's recalcitrance" (L.A. Times editorial, 4/9/02) and "Palestinian rejectionism" (Mortimer Zuckerman, U.S. News & World Report, 3/22/02), "Arafat walked away from generous Israeli peacemaking proposals without even making a counteroffer" (Salon, 3/8/01). Yes, Arafat "walked away without making a counteroffer" (Samuel G. Freedman, USA Today, 6/18/01). Israel "offered peace terms more generous than ever before and Arafat did not even make a counteroffer" (Chicago Sun-Times editorial, 11/10/00). In case the point isn't clear: "At Camp David, Ehud Barak offered the Palestinians an astonishingly generous peace with dignity and statehood. Arafat not only turned it down, he refused to make a counteroffer!" (Charles Krauthammer, Seattle Times, 10/16/00).

This account is one of the most tenacious myths of the conflict. Its implications are obvious: There is nothing Israel can do to make peace with its Palestinian neighbors. The Israeli army’s increasingly deadly attacks, in this version, can be seen purely as self-defense against Palestinian aggression that is motivated by little more than blind hatred.

Locking in occupation

To understand what actually happened at Camp David, it's necessary to know that for many years the PLO has officially called for a two-state solution in which Israel would keep the 78 percent of the Palestine Mandate (as Britain's protectorate was called) that it has controlled since 1948, and a Palestinian state would be formed on the remaining 22 percent that Israel has occupied since the 1967 war (the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem). Israel would withdraw completely from those lands, return to the pre-1967 borders and a resolution to the problem of the Palestinian refugees who were forced to flee their homes in 1948 would be negotiated between the two sides. Then, in exchange, the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel (PLO Declaration, 12/7/88; PLO Negotiations Department).

Although some people describe Israel's Camp David proposal as practically a return to the 1967 borders, it was far from that. Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

Because of the geographic placement of Israel’s proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

Violence or negotiation?

The Camp David meeting ended without agreement on July 25, 2000. At this point, according to conventional wisdom, the Palestinian leader's "response to the Camp David proposals was not a counteroffer but an assault" (Oregonian editorial, 8/15/01). "Arafat figured he could push one more time to get one more batch of concessions. The talks collapsed. Violence erupted again" (E.J. Dionne, Washington Post, 12/4/01). He "used the uprising to obtain through violence...what he couldn't get at the Camp David bargaining table" (Chicago Sun-Times, 12/21/00).

But the Intifada actually did not start for another two months. In the meantime, there was relative calm in the occupied territories. During this period of quiet, the two sides continued negotiating behind closed doors. Meanwhile, life for the Palestinian population under Israeli occupation went on as usual. On July 28, Prime Minister Barak announced that Israel had no plans to withdraw from the town of Abu Dis, as it had pledged to do in the 1995 Oslo II agreement (Israel Wire, 7/28/00). In August and early September, Israel announced new construction on Jewish-only settlements in Efrat and Har Adar, while the Israeli statistics bureau reported that settlement building had increased 81 percent in the first quarter of 2000. Two Palestinian houses were demolished in East Jerusalem, and Arab residents of Sur Bahir and Suwahara received expropriation notices; their houses lay in the path of a planned Jewish-only highway (Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 11-12/00).

The Intifada began on September 29, 2000, when Israeli troops opened fire on unarmed Palestinian rock-throwers at the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, killing four and wounding over 200 (State Department human rights report for Israel, 2/01). Demonstrations spread throughout the territories. Barak and Arafat, having both staked their domestic reputations on their ability to win a negotiated peace from the other side, now felt politically threatened by the violence. In January 2001, they resumed formal negotiations at Taba, Egypt.

The Taba talks are one of the most significant and least remembered events of the "peace process." While so far in 2002 (1/1/02-5/31/02), Camp David has been mentioned in conjunction with Israel 35 times on broadcast network news shows, Taba has come up only four times--never on any of the nightly newscasts. In February 2002, Israel's leading newspaper, Ha'aretz (2/14/02), published for the first time the text of the European Union's official notes of the Taba talks, which were confirmed in their essential points by negotiators from both sides.

"Anyone who reads the European Union account of the Taba talks," Ha'aretz noted in its introduction, "will find it hard to believe that only 13 months ago, Israel and the Palestinians were so close to a peace agreement." At Taba, Israel dropped its demand to control Palestine's borders and the Jordan Valley. The Palestinians, for the first time, made detailed counterproposals--in other words, counteroffers--showing which changes to the 1967 borders they would be willing to accept. The Israeli map that has emerged from the talks shows a fully contiguous West Bank, though with a very narrow middle and a strange gerrymandered western border to accommodate annexed settlements.

In the end, however, all this proved too much for Israel's Labor prime minister. On January 28, Barak unilaterally broke off the negotiations. "The pressure of Israeli public opinion against the talks could not be resisted," Ben-Ami said (New York Times, 7/26/01).

Settlements off the table

In February 2001, Ariel Sharon was elected prime minister of Israel. Sharon has made his position on the negotiations crystal clear. "You know, it's not by accident that the settlements are located where they are," he said in an interview a few months after his election (Ha'aretz, 4/12/01).


They safeguard the cradle of the Jewish people's birth and also provide strategic depth which is vital to our existence.

The settlements were established according to the conception that, come what may, we have to hold the western security area , which is adjacent to the Green Line, and the eastern security area along the Jordan River and the roads linking the two. And Jerusalem, of course. And the hill aquifer. Nothing has changed with respect to any of those things. The importance of the security areas has not diminished, it may even have increased. So I see no reason for evacuating any settlements.


Meanwhile, Ehud Barak has repudiated his own positions at Taba, and now speaks pointedly of the need for a negotiated settlement "based on the principles presented at Camp David" (New York Times op-ed, 4/14/02).

In April 2002, the countries of the Arab League--from moderate Jordan to hardline Iraq--unanimously agreed on a Saudi peace plan centering around full peace, recognition and normalization of relations with Israel in exchange for a complete Israeli withdrawal to the 1967 borders as well as a "just resolution" to the refugee issue. Palestinian negotiator Nabil Sha'ath declared himself "delighted" with the plan. "The proposal constitutes the best terms of reference for our political struggle," he told the Jordan Times (3/28/02).

Ariel Sharon responded by declaring that "a return to the 1967 borders will destroy Israel" (New York Times, 5/4/02). In a commentary on the Arab plan, Ha'aretz's Bradley Burston (2/27/02) noted that the offer was "forcing Israel to confront peace terms it has quietly feared for decades."



regarding the Taba Talks:

Contrary to popular mythology in some circles, Arafat did NOT walk out of Taba..The Israeli negotiating team under instruction from the Prime Minister Ehud Barak unilaterally ended the talks in January 2001 because of the election which Ariel Sharon was predicted to win by a landslide with an absolute promise to reject any agreement with the Palestinians reached at Taba. These facts are not in dispute among sane and rational people.

Here is the link to the European Union notes - known as the Morantinos documents which all sides have confirmed to be a reliable record of what occurred at Taba, Egypt in January 2001.

http://prrn.mcgill.ca/research/papers/moratinos.htm

snip:"Beilin stressed that the Taba talks were not halted because they hit a crisis, but rather because of the Israeli election ."

snip:"This document, whose main points have been approved by the Taba negotiators as an accurate description of the discussions, casts additional doubts on the prevailing assumption that Ehud Barak "exposed Yasser Arafat's true face." It is true that on most of the issues discussed during that wintry week of negotiations, sizable gaps remain. Yet almost every line is redolent of the effort to find a compromise that would be acceptable to both sides. It is hard to escape the thought that if the negotiations at Camp David six months earlier had been conducted with equal seriousness, the intifada might never have erupted. And perhaps, if Barak had not waited until the final weeks before the election, and had instead sent his senior representatives to that southern hotel earlier, the violence might never have broken out."

-----------

Here is a neutral and dispassionate examination of what led to the break down at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in January 2001:

Vision of Collision: What Happened at Camp David and Taba" by Professor Jeremy Pressman:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publication/322/visions_in_collision.html?breadcrumb=%2Fexperts%2F355%2Fjeremy_pressman

Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements



CNN: Palestinians pledge to work with Sharon



Sharon calls peace talks a campaign ploy by Barak
Likud leader says he won't comply with latest agreements

January 28, 2001
Web posted at: 1:42 p.m. EST (1842 GMT)

"Sharon leads Barak by 16 to 20 percentage points in opinion polls that have changed little in recent weeks." link:


http://premium.europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/02/06/mideast.palestinians.02/index.html

"Ehud Barak is endangering the state of Israel to obtain a piece of paper to help him in the election," Sharon said at a campaign stop Saturday. "Once the people of Israel find out what is in the paper and what Barak has conceded, he won't get any more votes."

link:

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/01/27/mideast.01/index.html

------------

If the vast majority of settlements are not REMOVED - a two-state solution is physically impossible


Because, if the vast majority of settlements are not removed, a contiguous, viable and independent Palestinian state is a physical impossibility and the two-state solution is certainly a physical impossibility. EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS!!!



There are approximately 450,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, (*now closer to 500,000) including East Jerusalem. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank".*

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

full PDF map:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu
"“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/11/world/middleeast/11road.html?_r=11&pagewanted=2&ei=5070&en=22948d4799a34065&ex=1187496000&emc=eta1&oref

.




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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. wrong again....a better offer was presented by Olmert in Sept 2008 and it was rejected
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 06:27 PM by shira
It was an offer that went WAY beyond what Barak offered in 2000, which was WAY beyond what Rabin was willing to offer right before his death in 1995.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/ehud-olmert-still-dreams-of-peace/story-e6frg76f-1225804745744

The 'myth' is that if only Barak hadn't left Taba a few days early, maybe a deal could have been struck within 2-3 days.

:eyes:

The fact is that more was offered after many months of negotiations b/w Olmert and Abbas in 2008, not just a few days, and Abbas still rejected it.

==============

Another fact is that Arafat later regretted turning down Barak and Clinton's offer at Taba, so apparently it was a generous offer after all.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/22/israel

But don't let a good narrative demonizing Israel and whitewashing Arafat get in the way of facts. :)
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Netanyahu: Abbas-Olmert peace deal will be invalid
Opposition leader and Likud Chairman Benjamin Netanyahu hinted Thursday that if he were to be elected prime minister, he would not honor any peace agreement struck between current Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, if one should be achieved.

"The agreement that Olmert will or will not achieve is no more than a cynical invalid deal - not in legal terms, but in terms of reality," Netanyahu said in an interview with the right wing affiliated newspaper Makor Rishon.

Olmert and Abbas promised U.S. President George W. Bush to try to reach a peace deal by the end of the year.

Netanyahu said in the interview that he would regard general elections as a referendum on the potential peace deal, saying "then the public would be the judge."

"If they win the election - fine. But if they don't, they can't force upon the public, in a cynical and manipulative manner, something the public is not interested in," he added.

In response to the question whether he would honor a peace agreement calling for the division of Jerusalem between Israel and the Palestinians, Netanyahu said "I can say with certainty that I will not divide Jerusalem."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/976050.html


this statement was made prior to Olmerts offer
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. Livni tells France's Kouchner: I oppose Olmert's peace plan


Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni told her French counterpart Bernard Kouchner that she opposes the agreement in principle that outgoing prime minister Ehud Olmert has offered Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas.

"I do not believe in far-reaching proposals and an attempt to expedite matters, especially in light of the political situation," Livni, the prime minister-designate, told Kouchner on Sunday.

snip: "Livni's explanation was a criticism of Olmert. "Abu Mazen in his present political situation cannot accept such an agreement," she said. "The political situation in Israel also does not allow it to be signed."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026575.html





Abbas claimed that the two sides were nearing a breakthrough in talks that were broken off last year when Israel launched its war on the Gaza Strip. The present Israeli government, led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, he said, is simply uninterested he peace, he said.

"We sat and negotiated with the Israelis over drawing borders and we negotiated these borders with Olmert and Livni," Abbas was quoted as saying.

According to the Palestinian Authority’s WAFA news agency, Abbas told a gathering of business figures at his compound in Ramallah, “We must continue to have faith in peace, security and we must believe in the development of our country and our national unity.”

“We accepted international legitimacy and we accepted the international law and we accepted the roadmap and we offered all commitments and we honored all the commitments that came in the roadmap and achieved a lot in terms of security and economic stability,” Abbas told his audience.

“But the other side has not done anything, they have not stopped settlements and they refuse to recognize the two states and they have not accepted the international terms of reference that were ratified by the entire world and despite all of this, they say they reject preconditions,” he said.

“We have not applied preconditions on anyone. … it seems that they do not want peace and they refuse to stop settlements and they don’t want the two state solution, so I really don’t know what do they want. This is our position and we will not give up our position and we will not give up our constants and the other side has to think about what they want to do if they really want peace.”


http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=238654

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. so what? The point is Abbas won't accept any reasonable offer. He simply won't give up RoR.
That's not Israel's fault.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. The OIC has a funny way of showing they want peace - they initiated Goldstone
It was the OIC who made it clear that Hamas was not to be investigated seriously or held accountable for their actions leading up to, and including, OCL.

It's a joke to pretend that the OIC is interested in real peace or HR.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Oberliner, do you honestly believe billions of Muslims wants Israel to cease to exist?
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 06:20 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
Honestly?

You might want to notice the company you're keeping in this sub-thread.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. Where do you get that from?
My belief is that Hamas wants Israel to cease to exist. I believe that I have provided clear evidence that they do feel this way. Did you read the quotes? Are they not unambiguous?

I make no comment about the beliefs of "billions of Muslims" - please do not attempt to put words in my mouth.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #43
50. Some asshole puts up a comment about billions of Muslims want Israel to cease to exist.
Doug responds with info about Arab Peace initiatives.

In order to show that Muslims really do want Israel to cease, you post this nonsense about Hamas.

Even if.... do you think most of the majority of people who voted for Hamas in the last elections want Israel to cease to exist?

There are certainly politicians in Israel who wish the same for Palestine. Do we post it continually in order to attempt to derail conversation?

It's becoming clear that the only Palestinian position that is acceptable to you is one that falls in line with Abbas' pursuit of the faux peace process, even if that include overturning democratic elections, supporting a coup against elected leaders, inviting the CIA in for torture lessons, and the permanent suspension of democracy in Palestine.

Were you a big supporter of the Shah of Iran as well?

You call yourself a liberal zionist who wants peace, but really, your function here is to take every opportunity to cast Palestinians in a negative light. Very interesting.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Please read this response carefully if you are interested in knowing my actual position
Edited on Sat Dec-19-09 12:15 PM by oberliner
My post was not "in order to show that Muslims really do want Israel to cease" My post was to make the same point that I always feel is relevant when something like the Arab Peace Initiative is brought up.

That is that Hamas, which is currently in power in Gaza, does not want to live side by side at peace with Israel, but wants Israel to be replaced by Palestine.

Thus, what the Saudis or any other regional leadership propose with respect to a peace agreement is unworkable as long as Hamas maintains the position of power that they currently hold.

Until Hamas either decides to reform itself completely (i.e. recognize Israel, renounce violence, etc.) or is voted out of (or otherwise removed from) power, none of these initiatives can realistically be agreed to by Israel.

As to your claims regarding "my function here" allow me please to clarify once more that I absolutely do not attempt to cast Palestinians in a negative light, and I want nothing more than to see an independent Palestinian state living side by side at peace with Israel. And, I might add, that I am quite proud of the work that I have done to help support people and organizations, Israeli, Palestinian, and otherwise, who are working towards this goal.

I do, however, make numerous attempts to cast Hamas in a negative light, as I feel nothing but antipathy towards that particular organization.

I would add that you yourself have referred to Abbas and other Palestinian Authority leaders in extremely derogatory terms. Those posts have cast those Palestinians in a negative light as much, if not more, than many of the posts I've provided that are critical of the Hamas leadership.

I do not believe that I have ever once said anything negative or derogatory about Muslims or the Palestinian people.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-19-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Your body of posts speaks for itself.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. How did you happen to not notice the post Douglas responded to?
I saw it and I'm gobsmacked at the double standards it takes to ignore bigotry when it's aimed at Muslims/Arabs while getting worked up into a tizzy when it's aimed at Jews. You should be opposed to all bigotry, not just when it suits you...
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. That bullshit stood for 12+ hours. Interesting how a racist opening allows people to interject how
they really feel.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
42. That message is deleted - what did it say?
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 12:13 PM by oberliner
My post was in response to the extensive post about the Arab Peace Initiative which runs counter to the very clear rhetoric coming from Hamas who actually would need to be on board for it to be implemented succesfully, in my opinion.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. the message was certainly not deleted when you responded to me
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 03:02 PM by Douglas Carpenter
It was a blatantly bigoted comment about "billions of Muslims." You certainly must have noticed what I was responding to. I find it hard to believe that you didn't see it. It was there when you responded to me.

I certainly have a very big problem with blatantly anti-Semitic comments - especially ones that are as blatant as that one was so blatant. Especially if it tried to implicate all the word's Jewish people.

At the very least you could have responded to a blatantly bigoted post that implicated all Muslims all over the world, giving the impression that you were trying to support that bigoted posters post. I find it hard to believe that you didn't see it. It was there when you responded to me.
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oberliner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 03:29 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Thanks for refreshing my memory - I did see it
I'm glad to see that kind of message was deleted.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-17-09 03:12 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. Yeah, when it's bigotry against Muslims or Arabs, it is easy to forget!
Not like when it's bigotry against Jews where you approach it in an entirely different way....
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shaayecanaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. I cried when they shot John Lennon
tears rolled down my spine
and I cried when I saw JFK
as though Id lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X and Ice-T had it coming
they got what they asked for this time
so love me, love me, love me, Im a liberal...

Man, is that avatar of John Lennon hardcore or what? Totally. It would be so cool to put a sticker of it on my Toyota Prius. Maybe I can buy one at Whole Foods.

Was it George Orwell who said that the peace movement was objectively pro-fascist? I wonder what that was all about.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you really believe the shit you're peddling?
Edited on Mon Dec-14-09 06:15 PM by ProgressiveMuslim
What's your source on that, Fox News?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. Netanyahu: Settlement freeze only temporary - one time measure only - no extention


Netanyahu: Settlement freeze only temporary


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091201/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

Netanyahu sought to reassure the settlers, who have been among his main backers.

Referring to them as "our brothers and sisters" and calling them "an integral part of our people," he said the moratorium was meant to encourage a resumption of peace talks.

He noted that the Cabinet decision imposing the 10-month halt is a one-time measure. "We will resume building at the end of the freeze," he pledged.



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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-14-09 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
15. I think Israel has the "peace" it wants
Gaza has been crushed, only the occasional kassam now and again and all of Gaza will be punished everytime the West Bank is thoroughly under the boot, if they can stall long enough the current pressure will blow over and in mean time who cares life is good well unless your a Palestinian
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. Exactly...
The *peace* Israel wants is one where it's acknowledged by the Palestinians that Israel has crushed it and is the victor. It's the *peace* of warmongering RWers everywhere, and not one that 'progressives' should support...
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
32. Violet, do you really think the RW/LW divide works in this context?
I really don't see it. While Israel's RW politicians might be more open about Israel's intentions, do you really see a difference in actions?

Similarly, the vast majority of the Israeli populations seems content enough with the status quo to go on about their business as usual.

I think this is a situation in which, with the exception of a tiny left-wing minority, the vast majority of the populace either supports the endless oppression of the people of Palestine, or they are indifferent to it, so long as their lives aren't disturbed too greatly.

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:03 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. except for far fringes, there is no LW/RW divide in Israel or among Jews worldwide regarding I/P
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 06:04 AM by shira
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. On one thing we agree. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. yeah, but they don't support ongoing oppression of Palestinians
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 06:18 AM by shira
Hamas, Fatah, the OIC and their western supporters are the ones who really don't give a crap about Palestinian suffering.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. You need medication. nt
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. LOL
do you really think Hamas, Fatah, the OIC and those who support these actors are "pro Palestinian" and care for Palestinian suffering?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. I really think you are insane. That's what I think.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. just a yes or no will do...what's the problem?
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 06:44 AM by shira
is it really that difficult to oppose Fatah, Hamas, the OIC, Hezbollah, Iran, S.Arabia, Syria, etc... for their role in ongoing Palestinian misery?

You live in a free country and you're progressive - so what's the problem?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. Shira, to me, your question is akin
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 06:53 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
to my asking you:

Soliders in Gaza committed horrible, disgusting acts. Are all Jews reprehensible? Yes or no?

Except that in what I wrote, the first part is true.

You seem to draw energy from dehumanizing Palestinians and I want no part of it.

Even acknowledging your question makes me feel dirty. Go away. You are crazy and I have no desire to interact further with you.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I draw a clear distinction between Palestinians and their Hamas/Fatah leaders, as well as IJ, PFLP
Edited on Tue Dec-15-09 07:28 AM by shira
...and the oppressive leadership in Syria, Iran, S.Arabia, the OIC, Hezbollah, etc.

Do you see those organizations as truly representing the best interests of Palestinians?

And an attack on regressive Jihadi leadership and warmongers is an attack on all Palestinians, or all Arabs, or all Muslims? Really?
:o
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. They don't?
I'll be the first to agree Hamas, and to a somewhat lesser extent Fatah, DON'T seem to give a crap about Palestinian suffering just so long as they can stay in power. (E.g. Hamas have murdered considerably more Palestinian opponents than Israelis.)

But that isn't incompatible with Israeli governments supporting ongoing oppression of Palestinians. Not just for fun; but because they perceive it as in the interest of Israeli security; not to mention their own wish to stay in power; and even mostly LW governments depend on small RW parties to survive. Nonetheless, you can't seriously think that Israeli leaders give much of a crap about Palestinian suffering?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:50 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. i didn't write about the Israeli govt
But now that you bring it up, do you think the Israeli govt deliberately tries to cause Palestinian suffering?
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-15-09 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Why a lesser extent for Fatah?
genuinely curious.
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