World 'failed Gaza over Israeli blockade' - aid groups

[StarfarerBill]

By Tim Franks
BBC News, Jerusalem

"Aid agencies have strongly criticised the international community for failing to help bring an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza.

"The charities made the accusation in a report published just ahead of the anniversary of Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip.

"The aid agencies condemn not just Israel, but the world community.

"In the words of Oxfam's director, Jeremy Hobbs, 'world powers have failed and betrayed Gaza's ordinary citizens'.

"The charities call for more pressure to be exerted on Israel to end what they describe as its illegal collective punishment of Gazans."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8425698.stm

[Sezu]

1. The fail label belongs first and foremost to

the terrorists and thugs of Gaza who made the blockade necessary. They could end it almost immediately IF THEY WISHED.

[Violet_Crumble]

2. The 'they forced Israel to do it' excuse is an epic fail on yr part...

Despite what you think, Israel is just like every other country and is responsible for its own actions. There's no justification or excuse for committing human rights violations, and anyone with a shred of intelligence would realise that yr screwed up attempt at justification leads to believing that acts of terrorism by Palestinian groups are justified due to the actions of Israel. You really should rethink what is support of human rights abuses and terrorism on yr part...

[shira]

3. the blockade should be lifted, Hamas should receive all the weapons they want from Iran

if that results in many more thousands of lives lost, and it will, at least we can say lifting the siege was beneficial to the cause of peace and human rights.

:eyes:

It's also best to pretend as though Hamas does not use cement and construction materials for their own use, and that they do not steal food in order to sell it later so that they can go out and buy more weapons.

Keep all this in mind, and you too can pretend to be concerned about peace and human rights while getting your rocks off bashing the evil zionist entity.

[Sezu]

6. That sure is what some here want. It's sick and

sanctimonious and a whole lotta other nasty and evil stuff. I can just imagine whose side these clowns would have been on in WW2.

[Violet_Crumble]

8. It must really suck to be you...

All you seem capable of doing is making up complete lies about what other DUers are saying. That's pretty damn anti-Israel of you...

[Sezu]

12. making up? surely you jest.

Then again, it is you so....probably you believe that shit.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. No, yr making up complete bullshit about what other DUers say...

If you were reacting in a thread where someone had actually said what you insist people say, that'd be different, but as it is yr making up bullshit and thinking LWers here at DU are stupid enough to fall for yr crap...

[shira]

17. and never a word on Egypt's "blockade".

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Stop whining!

There is a UNSC resolution coming soon....a rebuke from the UN General Assembly...a call for boycotts from British groups...a flotilla from Cyprus involving people like Cynthia McKinney...UC-Berkley is planning protests. You just have to wait!

:rofl:

[shira]

19. yeah, right after they take Hamas to task for their own warcrimes against Palestinians

like trying to maximize Palestinian casualties by using the Gazan population as a human shield, stealing food sent in by Israel to the Palestinian population, deliberately firing from civilian populations, intentionally dressing as civilians to mix within the population, using child combatants, storing weapons inside homes along with boobytrapping homes, mosques, and schools, hiding within the main Gaza hospital, and commandeering ambulances for military purposes.

All the hand wringing critics of Israel who are for human rights are right on top of all this.

You just wait and see.

Any minute now.

Any minute.

...

Bueller?

[cqo_000]

4. Duh

[Tripmann]

5. Here we go again

Israel is collectively punishing a million gazans.

Response: Noun....verb...'Hamas'

Ranks right up there with "She was asking for it dressed like that" and "9/11 changed everything"

[sabbat hunter]

7. it is unfortunate

but Israel has little choice in this matter. Hamas is a terror organization that does not wish peace with Israel, in fact has on many times called for the destruction of Israel so that a Palestine can be established "from the river to the sea". I wish there was a way that Hamas could be blockaded and allow the people in Gaza to get the humanitarian aid that they need.

Hamas does unfortunately use open borders to smuggle in arms to use against Israel, ignore the people of Gaza and use the people of Gaza for their own ends.

It is not a simple situation of "opening the borders" in Gaza.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. Israel has just as much choice as any other state has, which is plenty...

It's like saying Bushco had little choice but to invade Iraq.

You can't absolve Israel of responsibility for the collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza the way you did in yr post. Civilians shouldn't be used as some sort of expendable bargaining chips between the parties to the conflict, otherwise it then becomes acceptable to try to justify acts of terrorism by Palestinian groups on Israeli civilians...

[sabbat hunter]

10. I do not completely absolve them

of the situation in Gaza, but at the same time Hamas must be held responsible as well for the collective punishment. It is their terrorist policies that cause Israel to do what it can to try to protect itself.

it is a no win/catch 22 situation. Until you get people on both sides willing to negotiate, there will be problems.



Let me put this upon you.

what if Israel dropped the blockade completely, Hamas rearmed and started attacking Israel. What recourse would Israel have, given that Hamas generally strikes from civilian areas?

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Where we disagree is what blame lies where...

Hamas is no more responsible for the blockade (which, btw, is not a case of 'Israel doing what it can to protect itself', but is a massive human rights violation) than Israel is responsible for rocket attacks on Sderot or in the past suicide bombings. Responsibility for war crimes and human rights violations is held by the people who plan and execute those things, and not the leaders of the people who become the victims of these things. There are plenty of things Hamas should be held responsible for, but the blockade of Gaza isn't one of them.

I see little likelihood that with the likes of Hamas and Nutty's govt that there will be any genuine interest in negotiating any time soon. And I don't blame Mr Abbas at all right now for refusing to enter into negotiations while Nutty refuses to freeze settlement construciton in the West Bank, as negotiations from Nutty under those circumstances are more useless than tits on a bull.

what if Israel dropped the blockade completely, Hamas rearmed and started attacking Israel. What recourse would Israel have, given that Hamas generally strikes from civilian areas?

First, my understanding is that the blockade imposed by Israel hasn't had any affect on rockets being fired at Israel - it's OCL that appears to have had some affect. If Israel feels it has to do something that's a violation of international law and will cause a lot of suffering and death to the civilian population, then it shouldn't do it and there's no justifying it if it decides to do so. If Israel can't find ways to deal with things that aren't violating international law, then it's not trying hard enough to find solutions...

[sabbat hunter]

22. what solution would you have

if it was attacked? to just sit there and take it? We know already that the UN will not enforce anything, given their history (just look at how it is allowing Hizbullah to rearm in Lebanon, despite UN peacekeepers being there).

I think that Hamas has to take just as much responsibility for the blockade as does Israel, as it was their attacks on to Israel that caused the blockade to be put up in the first place. (remember Israel pulled out of Gaza, then was attacked by Hamas again)

I completely agree that Israel should halt all settlement expansions.

If I was in charge of Israel, I would pull out entirely from the west bank (except for the old city of jerusalem). It would then be up to the PA and the Palestinian people to declare a state (Which they really should have done back when Israel declared its statehood, but that is neither here nor there)

[Violet_Crumble]

26. It's not a case of either/or

It's not a matter of throwing support behind human rights violations and the killing of Palestinian civilians OR just sit there and take it (and note that the people making the decisions aren't the poor suckers sitting there and taking it). There are things Israel can try to resolve it, like agreeing to talk to Hamas, listening to what people in Sderot have to say, and things that don't involve making Palestinian civilians suffer the way they are. At the moment there's very little in the way of rockets happening, and it seems Hamas does have some control over them. But at the same time, it's got to be remembered that Palestinians shouldn't just have to sit there and take what's being done to them, either. The suffering they've gone through is infinitely worse than anything a resident of Sderot has gone through, and it annoys me that some in this forum (not including you in this) appears to believe that human rights abuses against Palestinian civilians is acceptable because they're 'minor'...

[sabbat hunter]

30. hamas wont even

recognize israel and calls for a palestine from the river to the sea. Kinda hard to negotiate with a group like that.

[LeftishBrit]

20. While I see your point, and that this is why Israel does what it does...

I think that it is not only wrong but ultimately counterproductive, and just helps to keep that base of support for Hamas going.


'at the same time Hamas must be held responsible as well for the collective punishment. It is their terrorist policies that cause Israel to do what it can to try to protect itself'

I agree, but it goes the other way too. If Hamas are only reinforcing support for Likud and the Israeli Right, the Israeli Right are only reinforcing support for Hamas and the Palestinian Right.

[shira]

21. but look at the results, LB....since the carnage of 2000-2002 with all the suicide bombers

The separation barrier, checkpoints, and blockade have gone a LONG way towards saving literally thousands of lives on both sides, Israel and Palestine.

To go backwards and risk that kind of carnage again (and there's simply no empirical evidence that exists showing it wouldn't happen again) just makes the situation for both sides much worse.

It's a catch-22, is it not?

Is there a better more effective and moral alternative that would save literally thousands of lives?

Remember - the only thing stopping or slowing down Hamas rockets was OCL. If the blockade didn't exist before OCL, can you imagine how many more deaths would have resulted? And can you really blame Israeli citizens NOW for not wanting to lift the blockade, which would bring OCL part II sooner (and therefore bring on Goldstone part II)?

There is seemingly no better alternative.

It's a choice between one shitty option and another that's even shittier.

And if there are no better realistic and effective alternatives, why not admit it and stop slamming Israel and its people for a no-win situation?

[sabbat hunter]

23. that is why

it is a catch 22/vicious circle.

until there is sane leaders on both sides this unfortunate and tragic cycle is going to continue.

I think the best opportunity was had back in 2000 at camp david.

[azurnoir]

11. Joyous Whatever

maybe this will come in handy

When a speaker warns that the consequences of ignoring his message is likely to be war, conflict, personal suffering, and so forth, they are manipulating fear to advance their message. Listeners have deep-seated fears of violence and disorder, which can be tapped into by creating false dichotomies -- “either listen to me, or these terrible things will happen." Listeners are too preoccupied by the threat of terrible things to think critically about the speaker’s message.


Hasbara Handbook - page 35

http://my.opera.com/salventura/blog/the-hasbara-handbook

[Violet_Crumble]

15. The hasbara handbook is a really entertaining read...

It's a hilarious twist on some basic PR tooks, and if they'd taken the time to run focus groups before coming out with the handbook, I suspect the whole thing would have been a lot less amusing than it's turned out being...

[Tripmann]

16. Hamas can call for anything it likes and it won't make a

blind bit of difference. The only people who have lost their land are the palestinians and the only people with the power in that region to cause that level of destruction are the Israels. So talking about how unfortunate it is that Israel has to collectively punish civilians because of what hamas calls for is like supporting the US glassing Iran because their religious leaders shout "death to america"

[sabbat hunter]

24. What is your solution?

[Tripmann]

27. Some reality checking followed by some justice would be a good start

[sabbat hunter]

29. that is a big vague.

[Tripmann]

31. Well a sensible united coalition of nation pointing out the blinding obvious...

..would be the first step. Only 3 countries supported the agression in gaza last christmas. If all the others shout down the lies and bullshit coming from Israel and its lapdogs.

For example: Hamas shoot rockets at us. Answer: why do you think they do that.
Hamas are smuggling stuff in tunnels Answer: You have blockaded them, tunnels stop them from starving.
They voted for Hamas. Answer: They were GRANTED the freedom to do so by america, and they voted for the people who promised to fight fr their justice. Not the answer you wanted.

Then again flip the mirror. I sure everyone around here agrees that native americans should have rights and reparations for atrocities suffered? Yes??Now, imagine those native americans were caged, blockaded and suffering. What would they deserve? Justice? Understanding? The help of their fellow man? Reparations?

WRONG

They deserve nothing because its gods chosen land for gods chosen people.

I would LOVE a proper debate with any asshole who laments for the poor israelis how can't sit at their pool all the the time and I'll show them a Chld ho can't sit at all EVER

I'm not hugely religious but fake concern works both ways

[Shaktimaan]

32. I don't really understand what you're saying.

I think the question posed was what concrete suggestions would you have made for Israel when Hamas was launching rockets into it? Obviously OCL achieved its main purpose, but the criticism of it is that the human cost was much too high.

Don't be fooled here, there are no easy, cost-free or obvious solutions. Remember the embargo against Iraq in the 90's after Gulf War I? In some respects that situation has some similarities to this one. There was a dictator whose actions didn't really reflect the will of the people yet they were the ones who bore the brunt of any reaction to his policies. The estimates of the number of children who died because they lacked access to medicine and supplies was truly staggering. Yet when the embargo was lifted under the Food for Oil program it turned out to just serve to enrich Hussein without really benefiting his people very much.

The problem Israel faces now has echos of this past conflict. But the stakes for Israel are much higher. Hamas actually attacks it for one thing. Now while these attacks don't threaten Israel's sovereignty and don't kill many people, that doesn't mean they can just be ignored forever. Especially since the attacks gradually increase in sophistication as time goes on, featuring longer ranges and larger payloads, putting more and more Israelis at risk. They create an economic problem for Israel as well. While Sderot had defensive measures built to reduce the risk to its civilians, reproducing them for each new town or city as the rockets' range expands would get more and more expensive.

Had Israel ignored the attacks completely it seems pretty clear that Hamas would have just continued them. Had Israel decided to just end the blockade anyway then Hamas would gain access to more sophisticated weapons. Not only would the rocket attacks become a serious threat themselves, but any military action taken then would put far more Israelis and Palestinians at risk than OCL did. (Look at Lebanon and Hezbollah for a recent example.)

So, bearing all this in mind, what would you have suggested to Israel as an alternative to OCL?

[Tripmann]

33. Ok, let me simplify.....

Everybody needs to be honest about the reasons for palestinian agression. How docile would you be for instance if you were thrown off your land, imprisoned in Gaza and blockaded. How long before you started firing your own homemade rockets over the fences?

Ask also what fuelled the hatred and rightwing fascism that put hitler in power in the first place. Injustice and collective punishment will always push its victims towards the extremists. It put the nazis in power in germany, it put hamas in power in gaza. To think that increasing that same injustice and collective punishment will give a differen result is insane. But then again, the people calling the shots during OCL revolve their political careers around continuing the status quo, hence the rediculous precondition to talks like having to admit Israel has the right to exist. It does exist and is not going anywhere. That was my point.

My suggestion to Israel would be to give justice to the Gazans and lift the blockade. You won't kill extremism with violence, you kill it with kindness. Its a hell of a lot easier to convince somebody to blow themselves up when they've nothing to live for after all. How many suicide bombings are there n the affluent middle eastern countries?

But why do that, there will be another election eventually and the party that campaigns on getting the toughest on Gaza will get a large slice of the vote.

I also think that america, which is actively funding and arming one side in the conflict, needs to properly sit on the fence if it is to be part of any peace deal.

[proteus_lives]

25. Hamas failed Gaza.

[grassfed]

28. some of these posts echo anti-abolitionist rhetoric circa 1850