Guardian: Headline on Israeli organ harvesting was serious error

[Fozzledick]

The British paper The Guardian issued a correction on Tuesday, conceding that it should not have run the headline "Israel admits harvesting Palestinian organs" on a story that, according to the correction, "did not match the article."

"We should not have put the headline on a story about an admission, by the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, that during the 1990s specialists at the institute harvested organs" the correction on the Guardian website read.

"That headline did not match the article, which made clear that the organs were not taken only from Palestinians. This was a serious editing error and the headline has been changed online to reflect the text of the story written by the reporter."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1137498.html

So they published a false and inflammatory headline, then buried their half-assed retraction.

[sabrina 1]

1. Personally I think it doesn't matter who the victims were.

To harvest human organs from anyone, and I doubt they were rich, influential people, without their or their family's consent, is a despicable lack of respect for human beings and a crime. I read that there is now an investigation into the crime which is good. Too bad it took ten years though, but at least they're ahead of us. We don't prosecute our own human rights violators at all.

[Fozzledick]

3. It's not about the "victims", it's about pointing false blame

The purpose of this whole propaganda exercise was to smear all of Israel for the actions of one public health official who was prosecuted and removed from office as soon as his misconduct was discovered.
The Guardian's half-hearted retraction deliberately fails to address this central point.

For what it's worth, from my own experience working in a critical-care hospital in this country,
it's not unheard of for doctors to harvest organs from a newly dead patient before they receive official permission to do so and then fudge the paperwork afterward to obscure the sequence of events, especially if they have another critical patient whose life depends on receiving a transplant in time.
Their attitude is that it would be a greater crime to do nothing and let a patient die because the legally required paperwork is tied up in bureaucratic processing.

[clear eye]

5. Unfortunately it matters a whole lot to much of the world who the victims are.

Not everybody is as generally humane as you, and a lot of false assumptions about the medics' beliefs about the relative worth of Israelis vs Palestinians were generated around the world.

But I suspect you know that and are just emphasizing that you couldn't care less.

[Violet_Crumble]

6. I suspect much of the world reads The Guardian..

Though I do agree with you that it does matter who the victims are. There's a massive difference between abducting and killing someone to harvest their organs and harvesting organs from a dead person.

It's good to see that The Guardian is honest and admits when it makes an error, unlike some of the sources Fozzledick has used in this forum in the past...

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Headline correction!

I actually meant to type 'I suspect much of the world doesn't read The Guardian'. And may I stress to all readers that I am very sorry ala Jimmy Carter for this misbegotten attempt of mine to destroy Israel ;)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. Yes Fozzle. The Guardian is the bad guy in all this. Indeed. nt

[Fozzledick]

4. I'm so glad we can agree!

Well, at least about being sarcastic :evilgrin:

[pelsar]

7. so whats more disappointing?

feel free to be honest...is it that the fact that the guy was taking organs from everyone without discrimination and that you cant demonize him for taking just Palestinian organs?


or perhaps that the paper wrote such a sloppy headline, with an obvious attempt to demonize israel and got caught?


or worst of all.....perhaps that the state caught him and put him on trial...and that you can't demonize israel as a country for having a policy of stealing organs?
-----


i doubt you want to celebrate the fact that the israeli system, (police, media), caught a criminal, put him on trail and punished him...

[azurnoir]

8. well it is a bit disappionting but hardly surprising

that the defenders of Israel will still attempt to distort redirect and minimize and when that fails simply claim demonization but was Dr Hiss actually put on trial?

Hiss ceased being the director of the institute in 2005 when allegations of a trade in organs resurfaced.<10> After Hiss admitted to having removed parts from 125 bodies without authorisation, and following a plea bargain with the State of Israel, Israel's attorney-general, decided not to press criminal charges.<10> Hiss was given only a reprimand and continued to hold his position as chief pathologist at Abu Kabir.<10>

In January 2006, following the carrying out of an autopsy that was ordered by the Israeli courts for a Haredi woman found murdered in her apartment, a riot by dozens of Haredim took place inside the institute where Hiss worked. According to Dr. Benny Davidson, the manager of the institute, "Even in the institute's darkest days, there wasn't an event this big. They wrecked the entire hall, broke expensive equipment, and destroyed (institute director) Yehuda Hiss' room. The public reaction to the articles on the pathological institute was an abandonment of Hiss."<16>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_Hiss

perhaps and of course you will never admit it doesn't fit the on going "demonization" meme that is so popular with the Israel's defenders is that the reason there is even a story here is Israel's Foreign Ministers reaction to the story among others

Swedish officials said Thursday that comments by Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman in response to the article "had aroused anger" in Stockholm.

The article in Sweden's biggest-selling newspaper, first reported internationally by Haaretz.com on Tuesday, has sparked fierce widespread debate both in Sweden and abroad.

Lieberman on Thursday criticized Sweden for not intervening in "the blood libel against Jews." He said that "the affair is reminiscent of the state's stand during World War II, when it also did not intervene."

On Thursday, Bildt rejected Israeli calls for an official condemnation of the article.

Lieberman had asked Bildt to print a a state rebuttal to the piece. Dagan was expected to make a similar request during his meeting with Swedish Foreign Ministry officials.

Bildt denied the request, however, writing in a blog post late Thursday that he would not condemn the article as "freedom of expression is part of the Swedish constitution."

"Freedom of expression and press freedom are very strong in our constitution by tradition. And that strong protection has served our democracy and our country well," Bildt wrote.

"If I were engaged in editing all strange debate contributions in different media I probably wouldn't have time to do much else."

Bildt said he understood why the article stirred strong emotions in Israel, but said basic values in society are best protected by free discussion.

The article has enraged Israeli officials, who called it blatantly racist and said it played on vile anti-Semitic themes.

Bildt, meanwhile, says the rejection of anti-Semitism is "the only issue on which there has ever been complete unity in the Swedish parliament."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109008.html

the actual story for most of the Western world anyway was not the article but the reaction to the article, as Aftonbladet is considered a tabloid it seemed a bit over the top and were it not for that the whole thing would IMO have been forgotten by the next week

[pelsar]

9. oh..i hadn't realized that there are levels of blood libels that are "not worth bothering about."

the article you quoted said that he "...following a plea bargain with the State"...i believe thats a rather standard practice in western democracies (one can agree or disagree with this particular one, but that does not negate the practice.

so please tell me which blood libels are to be ignored and which have serious repercussions? (forgotten as you wrote)... i'm a bit weak on reading the future to understand the importance or non importance of the various ones.

here i'll help..i'll list a few and you can tell me which ones if any should be protested?....ok?


zarahs blue eyes-TV show-iran

organ stealing- paper sweden

protocols of zion- movie- egypt

Iran president- "removing israel (or whatever various terminology he used in his various speeches)"

Al-Shatat TV series...syria- jews kidnapping christian child for his blood

Hamas- Play.... jews drinking muslim blood.....

____

ok, lets admit it, you wont list them, you cant, because you have no idea what the implications are of any of them, at the same time you can believe that "at least one of them, will be forgotten, because you "know this." (actually i think you don't like the idea that israel should be defended anywhere, anytime, no matter what kind of attack it is..at least that is my impression, never having read anything different from your posts that i can recall)

so how about the others on m list..should they too be ignored?

________

and your quotes?

...sweden "got mad" because israels FM pointed it out?.....wow...guess its those "uppity jewish israelis" not staying quiet in their place while others write trash about them that are the real trouble makers..... (sorry, wrong decade)

[azurnoir]

10. It was a tabloid article

Not Syria not Hamas not Iran not even Egypt a tabloid, but ya know you could always send Avigdor to any of locations to deal directly with it why is Israel doesn't do that, could it be he's safe in Sweden?

It is not about "uppity Jews" staying on theor place as you claim it was/is about the FM of Israel acting foolishly, odd how quickly an Israeli issue becomes about Jews, I find that sad

[pelsar]

14. its a reality you perhaps don't like..but it is

odd how quickly an Israeli issue becomes about Jews, I find that sad

perhaps in your "enlightened world" one differentiates between jew and israeli.....most of the arab world doesn't, nor do the Palestinians....and it appears nor does parts of europe (pissed at israel?..burn a synagogue, attack a jew....).

israeli jews lives in the real world......not the fantasy one of the "enlightened"...

Not Syria not Hamas not Iran not even Egypt a tabloid, but ya know you could always send Avigdor to any of locations to deal directly with it why is Israel doesn't do that, could it be he's safe in Sweden?

do i really have to explain such obvious things?... I'll do so for those who perhaps have little understanding of the middle east and the different cultures. Whereas parts of europe may be outraged as such obvious anti israeli, anti Semites, egypt, iran, syria wouldn't even blink an eye.....i believe it the same reason that human rights orgs/UN barely bother with egypt gassing the tunnels, iran hanging homosexuals, etc

[azurnoir]

17. Reality I do not like or the one you need to create

I suspect there is a need in Israel to keep pumping the fear level of Jews living outside Israel. This is especially true of the American Jewish community were we would be led to believe that every goyim sees Herb Goldberg down the street as representing the IDF bombing Palestinian civilians, but alas it's just not so, not here not in most places.

Does antiSemitism exist yes it does, however it is not always tied to Israel and in fact has little to do with Israel in most cases at least in the West, as to Arab countries yes it may well be tied to Israel however didn't Israel provide asylum for those Jews, at least some of them? If memory serves Israel in it's infancy expelled 3/4 of a million Palestinians to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there, it could also explain why some Palestinians relate Jews to Israel how many Palestinians living in the OPT interact with Jews other than IDF, Shin Bet, or Border Police?

as to this

Not Syria not Hamas not Iran not even Egypt a tabloid, but ya know you could always send Avigdor to any of locations to deal directly with it why is Israel doesn't do that, could it be he's safe in Sweden?

it was an obviously rhetorical comment or so I thought, but obviously anything can be used as fodder for hyperbole
I find it quite disappointing that you lean so heavily on antiSemitism to defend Israel I guess you must have little else at this point in time though.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. A memory misfire...again.

"If memory serves Israel in it's infancy expelled 3/4 of a million Palestinians to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there,"

[azurnoir]

19. Explain and in detail what number of

Palestinians did Israel expel? Or is it the why we're quibbling with time?

[Behind the Aegis]

20. ..."to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there"

[azurnoir]

21. Then it was mere coincidence then, I see n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

22. Not to you. It was more sinister and legitimizes hate against Israel. n/t

[azurnoir]

23. Expelling that many people due to their ethnic backround

is sinister no matter who does it as it was also sinister when Arab countries did it or is right now in Thailand where they are sending Hmong to Laos

[Behind the Aegis]

24. In your fantasy world. But, reality doesn't support your claim.

[azurnoir]

25. So your OK with people being expelled due to their ethnic backround? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

26. I didn't say anything of the sort. So, it's OK to make up historical "facts?"

Don't get confused, I wasn't really asking if it was "OK," was merely pointing out what you did.

Edit" changed "an thing" to "anything"

[azurnoir]

27. There is no confusion

the facts between 1948 and 1951 634.3 thousand Jews emigrated to Israel while in the same time period 750,000 thousand Palestinians were expelled from Israel

Immigration to Israel (1948-1951) By Major Countries of Origin:

* Country Number (Thousands) Iraq 123.3
* Rumania 118.0
* Poland 106.4
* Yemen and Aden 48.3
* Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria 45.4
* Bulgaria 37.3
* Turkey 34.5
* Libya 31.0
* Iran 21.9
* Czechoslovakia 18.8
* Hungary 14.3
* Germany, Austria 10.8
* Egypt 8.8
* USSR 8.2
* Yugoslavia 7.7

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/juice/2000/israeli_society/is4.html

During the 1948 Palestine War, around 750,000 out of 900,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled from the territories that became the State of Israel.<2> The causes and responsibilities of the exodus are a matter of controversy among historians and commentators of the conflict.<7> Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period, there remains disagreement as to whether the exodus was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Zionist leaders, or was an unintended consequence of the war.<8>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee

as the article says there is disagreement as to why this happened

edited to a less adversarial title line

[Behind the Aegis]

28. And yet, nowhere does it say:

"...to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there"

[azurnoir]

29. And nowhere does it say they were not it says there is disagreement

Whereas historians now agree on most of the events of that period, there remains disagreement as to whether the exodus was the result of a plan designed before or during the war by Zionist leaders, or was an unintended consequence of the war.<8>

as this subthread demonstrates

[Behind the Aegis]

30. Wrong.

You assigned a reason when your proof did no such thing. You are trying to make your opinion out as fact.

[azurnoir]

31. Yes I stated my opinion is that wrong?

Is it wrong because you think otherwise do you have anything constructive to add to this or do you simply wish to continue to persist in this

Really there is little else to say I agreed to disagree which should be the end of this as I have no wish to communicate with someone who has really nothing to add to the actual conversatiom

[Behind the Aegis]

32. You tried to make your opinion look as if it were a fact.

This point is made very clear by your following posts. You have been caught, once again. And, once again, you try to retrain focus to disguise your disingenuous remarks.

[azurnoir]

33. Caught stating an opinion you disagree with

I stated an opinion and I have retained focus on that it would seem that someone here is playing a gottcha game as an end in and of it self, with no real purpose other than that

eta spell check error

[Behind the Aegis]

34. You are now claiming it is an opinion because...

....in doing so, you can't "be wrong." The truth is you tried to present a fact which was anything but a fact or truthful. You tried to use a true fact (the expulsion/exodus of a vast number of Palestinians) and claim the causation (room for Jews to take over) was therefore, also a fact. Had you claimed the true fact and said all of them were expelled and left it at that, well, that would be debatable, as shown by your links. Your statement is what Stephen Colbert calls "truthiness." Once again, you tried to prove something which wasn't true or, if is, you have failed to prove. Your efforts failed and you changed tactics and claimed it was now an opinion.

[azurnoir]

35. That is your opinion

do you gave a purpose here other than to badger and harass posters you disagree with? If so state it and I will let you have the last word as that is the only thing that will satisfy you

[Behind the Aegis]

38. You are entitled to your opinions, not your own facts.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. Az never claimed it was anything else....

She didn't say that she thought it was a fact...

[Behind the Aegis]

37. She did by trying to prove it.

Of course, you know that.

[Violet_Crumble]

39. People argue about opinions all the time. She never claimed it was a fact...

Of course, you already know that...

[Behind the Aegis]

41. She didn't have to come out and say "this is fact."

But, then you knew that.

"If memory serves Israel in it's infancy expelled 3/4 of a million Palestinians to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there,"

"If memory serves" is not usually an indicator that the following is opinion but rather a fact. Her further posts, trying to prove her claim further, shows she intended it as fact not opinion.

[azurnoir]

44. Again that is simply your opinion

but if you can apply your ability to parse to numbers I think the IRS has a place for a guy with your abilities auditors are most likely needed

[Violet_Crumble]

50. That's right. She didn't say it was a fact, and in fact has said it was an opinion...

But then, you already knew that as well....

[azurnoir]

40. OMG a double bind

lose/lose damned if I did damned if I did not sir that is quite pathetic

[Behind the Aegis]

43. What is pathetic is your posts.

They mimic the last time where you claimed fact, were proved wrong by your own links, then claimed I knew all along, yet were preceded by several posts claiming the exact opposite. Your M.O. is when caught in presenting inaccurate or false information, claim it is really something else.

[azurnoir]

45. So you admit you are only playing gottcha n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

47. No, I am trying to show your fact was incorrect.

Which I have done.

[azurnoir]

53. The only facts I sited were quite correct

other than that your purpose here is to censor and harass

[Behind the Aegis]

56. I didn't say they were incorrect, I said they didn't prove your assertion.

And, they don't.

[azurnoir]

63. No but they lend credence to what you claim is untrue n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

66. Except I made no claims, other than you are trying to pass off something as fact that isn't.

[azurnoir]

69. If you made no claims then you have no purpose here other

than playing gottcha

[Violet_Crumble]

71. I think everyone would have ascertained that a fair while back...

Me, I'm along for the ride on this thread as a quick way of raising my post count after reading a thread or two in GD that made me worry about my low post count (at least compared to those who've been here less than a year and have over 50,000 posts chalked up) :)

[Behind the Aegis]

72. That's because you got caught.

[azurnoir]

73. OMG and you admit it

you are not here to debate or add to the debate only to play gottcha games you may have ensnared me in something that you claim as fact about my statement but you have also ensnared yourself as well

[Behind the Aegis]

74. Correcting false information is adding to the debate.

But, at lesat you admit you were wrong, in your own special way (i.e slight of hand).

[azurnoir]

76. You corrected nothing

you stated your own opinion about my statement as fact and the only thing you added was yet another ridiculous subthread something that seems a habit with you

[Behind the Aegis]

79. You still believe...

...""If memory serves Israel in it's infancy expelled 3/4 of a million Palestinians to make sure there was room for Jews from anywhere who wished to live there,""

Well, whatever gets you through the day. Guess we are just to believe what ever crap "facts" you present.

[azurnoir]

85. When one states something is from memory

ie their own mind I generally take that as opinion apparently though you choose not to as to actual facts that I presented or the numbers they were not crap

[Behind the Aegis]

89. Fail.

And you once again, prove what you said was not an opinion, but a statement of fact.

[azurnoir]

90. How so I said I take memory or ones own mind as opinion

you jumped on it for your own reasons, now you are free to call that a fail or claim anything you like but my opinion is that you showed your hand long ago in this, really I would have mucg rather have continued with Pelsar who is usually an interesting poster and was the poster I was addressing when you once again interrupted to play out this exercise in your own brand of "truthiness" as to my self I generally do not like addressing you as it always ends up as yet another "I know are but what am I" type of debate and rarely do you add anything to the conversation other than that

[Violet_Crumble]

87. She's already stated it was an opinion. Yr the only one claiming otherwise n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

80. You didn't correct any false information at all...

Correcting something means explaining why something's wrong and supplying people with correct information, something that you've failed to do. If you think anything that Az has said is wrong, then that's what you should do.

[Behind the Aegis]

82. In your opinion, but then again, perhaps you are a fan of the "burden of proof" fallacy.

[Violet_Crumble]

84. You didn't correct any false information at all...

Correcting something means explaining why something's wrong and supplying people with correct information, something that you've failed to do. If you think anything that Az has said is wrong, then that's what you should do.

[Behind the Aegis]

86. In your opinion.

[Violet_Crumble]

88. Nah, it's a fact you haven't corrected what Az said n/t

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[azurnoir]

91. I think I missed this one so in reality this is a continuation

of your last attack I see well really I thought so tell me have you been lurking waiting to pounce? It would seem so as your initial post was only minutes after mine that would allude to stalking behavior

[Violet_Crumble]

42. What's the *reality*?

I'd really like to know...

[Behind the Aegis]

46. Somehow I doubt it....

Reality: around 750K Palestinians left/were forced from what is now Israel.
Reality: around the same number (650K~) left/were forced from various locals and settled in Israel.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. What do you doubt?

What was the motive for the expulsion/fleeing of around 750,000 Palestinians?

[Behind the Aegis]

54. I doubt your sincerity.

[Violet_Crumble]

58. I doubt yrs as well n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

60. That explains your personal attack.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

Asking you what the reality was isn't a personal attack, btw. Referring to you as a troll elsewhere in the thread is calling you what you are...

[Behind the Aegis]

64. And continued personal attacks, a sure sign of a failed argument.

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Huh? What personal attacks?

I read this sub-thread long before I joined in and you started personally attacking Az from the start, so by yr own admission that's a sure sign of a failed argument...

[azurnoir]

49. yes and what those numbers mean is a matter of opinion

is your purpose to make me fear to state my opinion? It does seem like it

[Behind the Aegis]

51. Sad.

Really sad.

You are entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.

[azurnoir]

55. Repeating yourself ?

You claim it was fact for your own needs and that need is simple harassment

[Behind the Aegis]

57. I have to repeat myself because you seem to think otherwise.

[Violet_Crumble]

59. I doubt yr sincerity n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

61. And I doubt yours.

[Violet_Crumble]

65. There'd be something very wrong if someone like you didn't...

I'd be worried if it was a pro-Israeli poster who actually is a constructive and respectful participant at DU, but when it's someone like you, I know I'm doing something right :)

[Behind the Aegis]

68. See, nothing but personal attacks.

[Violet_Crumble]

70. That wasn't a personal attack...

Hit alert on it if you think it was.


btw, for someone who's so quick to accuse other DUers of personal attacks, why is it that yr so quick to launch into personal attacks on other posters? If you don't want to be treated a particular way yrself, then you should ensure you don't do it to others...

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Projecting your own behavior onto others.

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Avoiding the issue, I see. There was no personal attack in my post...

[Behind the Aegis]

81. There were.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. I'll post it again and you can point out all these supposed personal attacks...

'There'd be something very wrong if someone like you didn't...
I'd be worried if it was a pro-Israeli poster who actually is a constructive and respectful participant at DU, but when it's someone like you, I know I'm doing something right .'

Considering the way you've personally attacked me (both here at DU and over at that Muslim-hating site you hang out at), even if that was a personal attack, which it wasn't, you honestly shouldn't expect anything different considering the way you treat people at DU...

[Violet_Crumble]

77. I think there's two schools of opinion on this one...

There's the These Things Happen In Wartime, and any resemblence to plans made by Zionist leaders for the future Israeli state are purely coincedental. And the one (which I agree with) where it was seen as important to the survival of a Jewish state that it begin with a large Jewish majority and that Arabs be moved outside the boundaries of that new state...

[shaayecanaan]

13. I think the problem is...

that the term `blood libel` is automatically applied to just about any allegation against Israel that someone considers contentious.

When the Sunday Times published the article on the `ethno-bomb` - the research into a biological agent that could specifically target Arabs - many Jewish organisations claimed the article was a massive smear, blood libel, etc. The matter was aired in parliament and it turned out the allegation was one which the Israeli armed forces were unwilling to deny. Israel`s apologists then went from claiming the allegation was monstrous and outrageous to then claiming it was no big deal and the US/Russia had probably done similar research themselves.

Israel`s media print plenty of shithouse articles themselves - the Jerusalem Post published an article recently stating that the Norwegian foreign minister attended a Nazi rally - it turned out the whole thing was simply pulled out of their arse. There was no apology forthcoming then, either from Israel or the paper.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Some scum bag is stealing body parts and the paper is the criminal? Not!

Body part theft from Palestinians has been going on for a long time and you likely know it! Why do you think Palestinian kids would take bodies of their slain comrades from hospitals? So they could get the bodies back to the families without "autopsies," that's why.

Spare me dude.

I see the bullet hole scar in my husband's arm, and the cigarette burn scars on the BIL's neck. There isn't much I put past the practitioners of Zionism.

[pelsar]

15. and from israelis..so spare me the racism...

racist headlines are racist headlines.......

i get it, that you like the demonization part .....too bad in the long and short run, it only makes matters worse.

[Shaktimaan]

16. question...

I see the bullet hole scar in my husband's arm, and the cigarette burn scars on the BIL's neck. There isn't much I put past the practitioners of Zionism.

Do you think that it's the consistent practice of Zionism that changes people somehow, engendering them to act this way? Or is it that people who have these kind of tendencies to begin with gravitate towards Zionism?

Do you consider the practitioners of Zionism to be more brutal (or more likely to dismiss brutality) than supporters of any other nationality?