For Israel, every traveler is an ambassador

[shergald]

The Globe and Mail describes itself as Canada's oldest newspaper and Canada's best and deepest coverage of national, international and business news. A sub-headline read, “a much-criticized country calls on its citizens to show the world that it is modern, sophisticated and peace-loving”

"Israel has come under harsh criticism for waging a one-sided war against Hamas in Gaza, for possible involvement in assassinations and for belligerent comments by its foreign minister towards some of its neighbours – and the government has decided to fight back. It is enlisting the help of citizen-diplomats to take the battle to foreign destinations. But instead of tackling its human-rights or international-relations image, the Israeli government wants the world to know Israelis don't ride camels or eat only kebabs, if a just-unveiled series of TV spots is an indicator.

The commercials, part of an initiative called Making the Case for Israel, were first seen this past weekend, and are aimed at the large number of Israelis who travel abroad each year. One ad says people around the world think camels are a common form of transportation in Israel, another alludes to the belief that the Israeli diet consists of kabobs grilled over a primitive barbecue, while a third notes that Independence Day fireworks are often mistaken for military action.

“Are you fed up with the way we are portrayed around the world?” each of the three spots asks. “You can change the picture.”"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/for-israel-every-traveller-is-an-ambassador/article1479056/

[shergald]

1. There's no idea who is writing these ads, but the absurdity of its presuppositions about...

foreign perceptions of Israel are just hilarious.

Does anyone believe that Israel invaded Gaza on camels?

[shergald]

2. Frank Luntz, where are you when you need you?

(Frank Luntz is the Republican pollster who provided guidelines for propaganda for Israel several years ago, since been updated, and published by The Israel Project. For example, Luntz recommended to never say "the occupied Palestinian territories." Say "disputed territories.")

[azurnoir]

4. The 2009 Israel Project (TIP) handbook

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8303274/The-Israel-Projects-2009-Global-Language-Dictionary

[shergald]

6. Luntz's lies are all in there, and possibly even massaged a bit from their originals.

[azurnoir]

3. is Israel confusing itself with Saudi Arabia?

a place which the beliefs about camels and kebobs are far more common?

but here is where the article is being more succinct

In December, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said his government will stand up to those who besmirch Israel's reputation, citing the UN report into the war on Hamas in Gaza chaired by the South African judge Richard Goldstone, as Exhibit A. “We must delegitimize the delegitimizers,” Mr. Netanyahu said.

That's where the citizen-diplomats come in, as well as other groups.

Hadar, a newly formed action group of English-speaking Israelis, hopes to be part of such a network.

<snip>

Meanwhile, more-established institutions are taking up the cause and employing new means to do so. At the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, a think tank run by Israel's former UN ambassador Dore Gold, young people are paid to wage cyberwar on various blogs known to criticize Israel. As Israelis learned during the war on Hamas in Gaza, they need to be inventive if they are to counter the critical view of their country projected by Palestinian and other groups.

[shergald]

5. I don't think the big liberal blogs can afford more proIsraeli proponents than they have now.

Israeli critics have actually been worried a lot about the big liberal blogs like Daily Kos and Huffington Post, more than little DU and other minor players. But can one ask: has another cadre of proIsrael bloggers joined the ranks here?

What good would it do anyway? On the big blogs, the frontpage hosts diaries critical or supportive of Israel, while on DU, IP is buried on a back burner. I wouldn't be concerned.

[oberliner]

8. Do not assume that because someone is Pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian they are not progressive.

A good rule of thumb for those who will do well are those who are actively seeking a peaceful and respectful settlement and are genuinely interested in a rational discourse of events in the I/P conflict.

If you feel great affinity to groups who are promoting hate in the Middle East such as Kahane, or Hamas; feel there is a Jewish conspiracy governing US foreign policy or control of the media; or believe supporters of Islam or Palestinian Nationalism are terrorists, then you are probably likely to be banned.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x21970

Cadres of pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian bloggers would be welcome to join the ranks here. In fact, I think it would be great if there were greater numbers of folks who fit the above description joining up. Here's hoping more of them do!

We could use a lot more "rational discourse of events" among folks who are "actively seeking a peaceful and respectful settlement" (as the forums guidelines suggest) regardless of whether they consider themselves "pro-Israeli", "pro-Palestinian", or both.

[shergald]

9. My take on the proPalestinian bloggers is that they are deep into progressive values.

Progressive values in the past have included the fight against Jim Crow segregation, South African Apartheid, democracy in Sudan and Myanmar, and two states as a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, as just examples. Locally (and as far as they affect foreign countries) we also believe in equality, for gays and lesbians, peoples of different races and religions, and everyone included in our Civil Rights Act.

So people with the beliefs you list should indeed be banned.

But I am confused as why you need to say so. As for Hamas, I believe along with peace activists like Jimmy Carter and Israel's Uri Avnery (Gush Shalom) that Hamas should be engaged in negotiations, and not fought as if they were demons. The claim that Hamas does not recognize Israel is equivalent to the Likud Charter which does not recognize Palestine or the rights of the Palestinian people. Should supporters of Likud be banned? I don't think so. There is also the view that Hamas (as well as Iran) is being used as a red herring to distract the world from the ethnic cleansing, occupation, and colonization going on in the Palestinian territories, especially the West Bank. And if you think that these viewpoints do not deserve discussion, then what you talking about is censorship of a distinctly proIsrael slant.

Because Israel is continuing its ethnic cleansing, occupation, and colonization of the West Bank, I would have to say that if criticism of them are bannable offenses, then good-bye. There's little point in continuing the conversation. I am especially disturbed that the restriction on what may be posted here exclude photos and videos so that people can actually experience the on-the-ground reality. It is also disconcerting that most of news about what is happening on the ground is appearing on internet sites and not in newspapers, especially not the biased ones like the NYT and WashPo, which are given as examples of legitimate sources. Legitimate for whom?

[pelsar]

10. whats missing...

is Palestinians ...... they're views might be rather surprising to many of the "pro Palestinians progressive bloggers/activists"...but since they are living the conflict, they're views are essential.

for instance those i have met would explain how there is in fact no ethnic cleansing, no genocide, they would explain how hamas is in fact more dangerous than the israelis...and some might even straighten out some of the bloggers and friends how arafats corruption was infact so damaging to the Palestinians.

They would in fact destroy so many of the myths that i read here at the DU....it would be interesting how long they could hang on before getting 'fed up" as they are told they "dont understand." (as i have been told)

[shergald]

12. And those Palestinians who believe those things deserve a hearing too.

But that anyone would take their view as representative is another matter. Some people, Palestinians or otherwise, also believe that Fatah is being snookered into taking on the enforcement of Israel's occupation. And if some Palestinians don't believe that ethnic cleansing is still going on, they should travel to the Jordan Valley, where Palestinian villages are being deprived of the essentials to exist like water to drink and to water their farmlands. Lacking the means of subsistence, many have gone to work in Israeli settlements located in the Jordan Valley for cheap wages and inevitable poverty. Many have left. If that is not ethnic cleansing, I just sorry to have to inform you otherwise.

So let those Palestinians who deny the reality come here and speak. This is America not the Soviet Union of ages past.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. I call bullshit on this.

I know a helluva many Palestinians, in the WB, in Gaza and in the diaspora.

I don't know a single Palestinian who isn't crystal clear about the evil that Israel has propogated against them.

One can be clear about Arafat's corruption, condemn it,and still be clear that the root cause of this conflict and ongoing oppression is Israel's violent military occupation and siege, Israel's land gluttony, and the refusal of the nation of Israel to allow Palestinians the basic human rights enjoyed by democracies everywhere.

[shergald]

18. Well, I would say, no one is fooling you about what is happening in the Palestinian territories.

[pelsar]

25. i know you do..thats why i like reading your posts....

and i have no doubt, obviously about what israel has done and is doing....but i would disagree with you about the root cause, thats pretty obvious. And poor leadership by the Palestinians is not some petty little thing, but a major factor in the conflict.....

I've read and heard so many about how israel is the stronger and the Palestinians have little if any effect on the conflict, that they are helpless...history shows otherwise, that they have had a major effect on the conflict, the events, the reactions etc.

its easy to say its all israels fault, makes every action by the Palestinians a "fault free"..except the wall, the checkpoints, the blockade on gaza, (to name the latest) would never had happened if it weren't for Palestinian actions. Sure you can go back further, to 73, 67, 48, 20 and find an israeli/jew action that caused this or that, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Palestinians actions did have an effect....

fix gaza first.......

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. Bullshit.

Israel did all that it could to ensure that Gaza would be unfixed for a long time, don't you agree?
Cut the crap Pelsar.

I would be curious as to your thoughts on exactly why the corrupt arafat was dealt back into the picture in the early 90s?

[pelsar]

30. damn kassams....bad idea - trying to israelis.....

did you really believe that hamas/PA/islamic jihad would be able to try to kill israelis day and night for years without an israeli reaction?......

thats the problem with pretending your not responsible for ones actions....one gets surprised when there is a reaction. The sad thing is, that it took an invasion of gaza to get them reduced......

so too with the suicide bombers....what? you didnt expect israel to stop them?.....so the Palestinians got checkpoints and a huge wall. Of course its not fair, but to pretend there wouldnt be a reaction that would negatively affect the Palestinians is absurd.
-------

gaza can be fixed anytime,....its a process but its starts with being nice to the egyptians and israelis, no matter how hard it is on the ego....you can always go back to trying to kill israelis and egyptians if it doesn't work.

but i really do wish they would start, the settlers are not waiting and it will make everything a lot tougher the more they wait.

___

as far as arafat goes..he was the acknowledged leader of the Palestinians..all the world wide donations and politics, went through him, israel had no choice but to get his blessing-he would have torpedoed anything that went around him, not to mention world wide condemnation of israel had it tried to use the locals....no way was that going to work. (manipulating the locals, etc).

[ProgressiveMuslim]

40. There were no kassams back when my brother-in-law's neck was used as an IDF ashtray...

I've seen with my own two eyes the special kind of the love that the IOF and Shin Bet have shown to Palestinians in places like Gaza... the marks of torture and murder I've witnessed long preceded any kassam rocket. Kassams were a limited-time response to a decades old oppression, much as you like to pretend that Kassams are the source of the conflict.

"Being nice" to a political system that does not regard you as fully human is both futile and humiliating -- don't you agree that history has taught that lesson?

Let's just agree that your "peace loving" gov't did all that it could to ensure that it never, ever has a partner for peace. Whether it's jailing leadership forever, deporting the first nonviolent practitioners in Intifadah I, making sure that those who would demand the rule of law would be unable to live in Palestine, inciting by violating religious sites, ongoing settlement and land expropriation in the WB.

Palestinians must shoulder their own responsibility for tolerating corrupt leadership. Exhaustion has a way of doing that, but even still, Palestinians must be clear-eyed about their future, demand better leadership and an end to the faux peace process charade, that has left them broken and destitute, while Israelis are sitting pretty, on more land than ever.

Time to engage totally in non violent resistance to a murderous military occupation and siege. Only when the average Israeli, such as yourself, is no longer welcome at a academic conferences in Europe, when your businesses lose customers (I will gladly forgo Sabra hummous) and when the world's entertainers, athletes and academics refuse to play Sun City, only when the price of living with your boots on the necks of millions is felt in every Israeli home will there be peace.

Maybe if you're nice, the world will stop treating Israel as the pariah state it will become.

[pelsar]

41. a win for the Palestinians...gaza

....., much as you like to pretend that Kassams are the source of the conflict. ..come on dont do that...make up stuff.

once israel left gaza....there was no shin bet around was there?...in fact you could call it a win for violence on the part of the gazans...PA/islamic jihad/hamas combined to kick out the israelis.

why hide those facts? the gazans had a real win on their side, proving that violence does work, sometimes and does get israel to move...the failure was to follow up with the necessary political moves to expand upon it.- of course that was hamas taking over. Trying to kill israelis after we left, was a really stupid idea. and had nothing to do with any shin bet, Israel interference in the PA/Hamas political affaires...zilch - 100% Palestinian

Ii would argue that most of your "friends" are not really your friends, as their own agendas dont coincide with yours. Infact at this point i'm not even sure if abbas wants gaza to succeed, as that would give a lot of influence to hamas...what a mess you guys got.....and don't bother blaming us for it, the Palestinian political process, the Palestinians own their own internal politics.

as far as the israeli govt goes, it has its good points and bad points...obviously from my point of view the settler enterprise was a real mistake compounded by the Palestinian reaction post oslo.

your mistaken about me....the Palestinians had it right with intifada I...have it right with Beilin......those two show real gains in a war your losing. No world wide boycott will convince us to commit suicide....as that is what your hoping for.

[Shaktimaan]

42. Your interpretation of events makes me very sad.

Aside from the fact that some of these exaggerations are just untrue, (the Israelis have appropriated more land than ever? After the pullout during Oslo and from Gaza?) I find it incredible that you see no opportunities from the past fifteen years which could have been handled more wisely. Do you really think that the difficulties faced by Palestine then were insurmountable? Were they any greater than those faced by Israel during its inception?

Do you really think that the current situation in Gaza was made inevitable by the Israelis? Nothing could have been done to alter that series of events, even with the benefit of hindsight?

Worst of all, you seem to place the only opportunity for peace outside of Palestine entirely. Only if the entire world chooses to cut Israel off completely do you see the possibility for peace? Only if the entire world decides to back the Palestinians over Israel, forcing it to accept Palestinian terms can there be a settlement?

Is waiting for a miracle really the best plan you can think of?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

53. Just looking at the facts. I'm more concerned with my relatives under siege in Gaza

in sub-human conditions than your "sadness."

[shira]

32. "son of Hamas" calls bullshit

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1152398.html

"I was in jail with Hamas people, with senior figures in the organization who ran an apparatus called Majad, a kind of internal security body of Hamas aimed at uncovering Israeli agents. They tortured prisoners, most of them from Hamas, whom they suspected of collaboration. My job was to write down the confessions and testimonies. As the sheikh's son, I was trusted. It was there that I lost my faith in Hamas. They killed people for no reason. While everyone was warning me about the Shin Bet, for the first time in my life I saw Hamas people torturing their comrades, members of their nation, with exceptional cruelty. The truth was of no interest to them. If they so much as suspected someone, that was the end of him. They tortured people brutally, burned them, jabbed them with needles, put out cigarettes on them."

These enemies of yours, the Shin Bet, the soldiers, are only trying to do their job. I thought to myself how Hamas would behave in a reverse situation: Would they show mercy to Jews? And I thought: 'Who are you trying to kid? Hamas and Fatah would behave more humanely?' I couldn't define who my enemy was anymore.

"True, the Shin Bet made horrible mistakes and killed innocent people, but its main goal, like Israel's, was to preserve the principles of a democratic country. There are 1.2 million Palestinians living inside Israel, within the Green Line, who enjoy rights and benefit more from Israel's prosperity and welfare than in any Arab state. Still, those soldiers took my father away before my eyes and shot people before my eyes, and believe me, it was no small thing for me to work for those people. It was a real turnaround."

"I saw torture, killing, a war over land. For me, human life and saving human lives is the most important thing, more important than any piece of land or real estate. I wanted to save - and did save - human lives, Israeli and Palestinian. I did not do it because the Shin Bet pressured me, or for money. I did it because I understood what Hamas really is and I had to make a change. For my sake and for the sake of others. I thought to myself that even if people claim I am a traitor, let them say it. People will not believe it, they will think I did it for money, but they have no idea. I was happy, delighted when I stopped a suicide bomber."

"They planned the intifada, and don't let anyone tell you anything different," he continues. " the Hamas leadership in Hebron and Gaza did not want to take part in the riots, because they said Arafat did not deserve to be helped after he persecuted the organization so harshly. And the truth is that Hamas in Gaza did not take part in the demonstrations at the start of the intifada. But my father was in favor ."

What do you mean by "planned"? Did Arafat ask them to do it?

"I can't tell you for certain that he gave an order. But he did give them his blessing. Listen, man, what do you think? Barghouti, Hussein al-Sheikh, all those who organized the demonstrations - they met with Arafat every day. So what did they talk about? But that is not the worst thing I discovered at the time about Arafat. I was the one who revealed that the first squad of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade was actually a group from Arafat's Presidential Guard, Force 17, which got money from Barghouti, who got it from Arafat."

"Many people think the terrorists' motivation is the Israeli occupation, the corruption, but all that is just the backdrop. It is not the root of the problem. The occupation is like the rain that falls on the soil in which the seed has been planted, but it is not the seed itself. The root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict does not lie in security or politics: It is a war between two gods, two religions. Between the God of the Torah and the God of the Koran. The Koran teaches that this is Waqf land - a sacred endowment which must not be given up. The Torah taught the Jews that this is their land and must not be given up.

"It follows that there will be no peace in the Middle East. Israel's problem is not with Hamas or with any other organization, nor with the interpretation Hamas reads into the Koran. It is with the god of the Koran. After all, even a moderate Muslim who reads the Koran must read that the Jews are the sons of apes and that the infidels must be killed. The Palestinians must stop blaming Israel, or the West, for all their problems. If they want true freedom, they must free themselves from their God."

You sound completely pessimistic. What about a Palestinian state?

"That is not a solution. Today we do not have a leadership worthy of ruling, not Hamas and not Fatah. The Palestinians move between the corrupt leadership of Fatah, and the Hamas leadership, which sends them all to die. Besides, Hamas cannot make peace with the Israelis. That is against what their God tells them. It is impossible to make peace with infidels, only a cease-fire, and no one knows that better than I.

"The Hamas leadership is responsible for the killing of Palestinians, not Israelis. Palestinians! They do not hesitate to massacre people in a mosque or to throw people from the 15th or 17th floor of a building, as they did during the coup in Gaza. The Israelis would never do such things. I tell you with certainty that the Israelis care about the Palestinians far more than the Hamas or Fatah leadership does. Israel withdrew from Gaza, and instead of the place being built up and cultivated, look what happened there. We need to take a break from these leaders. And I call on the government of Israel: Never accede to Hamas demands, not even about Gilad Shalit. They will not hurt him - he is too important to them. Even if it goes on for 10 years, Israel must not give in and release all those people from prison."

[shergald]

44. Some piece of garbage.

"True, the Shin Bet made horrible mistakes and killed innocent people, but its main goal, like Israel's, was to preserve the principles of a democratic country."

Ya gotta be kidding, of course. Democracy for whom?

[pelsar]

59. im impressed

...you seem to understand the conflict even more than the son of the hamas leader...you sure have been educated well.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

71. For crying out loud. Pelsar, do you really expect Palestinians and their supporters to herald

traitors? Shin Bet shills? They are the scum of the earth.

[shergald]

43. This truly the weakest part of Israeli propaganda: blame the Palestinians for their demise,..

the demise of their country and why they continue to be under military occupation.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the colonization of their lands going on around them, the movement of tens of thousands of Israelis onto their lands, their misery. In fact, if they had not voted Hamas into power, they would have a state today.

And the bullshit continues.

[shira]

46. it's their leadership; it's Islamist imperialism (revolution) like in Afghanistan, S.Arabia & Iran

Until you start realizing Israel is fighting against similar forces to what the US and UK are facing in Afghanistan, you'll just keep pretending the source of this conflict is something that it isn't.

You cannot claim to know anything about this conflict if you continue to ignore the actual context and history:

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/21591482/The-Muslim-Brotherhood-Nazis-and-Al-Qaeda-transcript-of-a-speech

It's precisely that leadership that has taken advantage of Palestinians and used them as pawns the past 60 years for their Islamist revolution. Hamas is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Mufti al-Hussayni (a leader of the brotherhood) was Arafat's favorite uncle, and inspiration.

What's really sad is that people like yourself seem to believe the Palestinians would be just fine under this leadership in a 2-state or 1-state scenario. You cannot claim to be pro-Palestinian while consigning decent Palestinians to a hellish existence under this kind of leadership. And you cannot blame Israelis or Jews for having serious concerns about their "peace partners".

[pelsar]

56. there you go again...with that great white colonialist attitude....

i realize that you really don't know much about the conflict.....you've chosen a side, don't know much about the history or care much for the actual events and every argument you don't like you just call "propaganda" which translates into a "i dont have to answer it".

i guess you know better than us locals because.....you went to college?...your from one of those great western democracies who knows whats good for the lesser folk?. Its got to be something, because it sure isn't based on knowledge

[Violet_Crumble]

60. You should have been aiming that spray at Shira...

It suits her to a tee...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

72. Isn't it fascinating how pro-Israelis like to pretend that an occupied people should somehow

remain occupied, yet be treated as they they are a fully functioning sovereign state?

How can a people under a murderous military boot for 40+ years with its leadership in jail, with every nearly every family having had members murdered or disappeared into Israeli jails, with unemployment over 50%, with land stolen, with movement limited, with its democratic elections utterly overturned by the west...

they are magically supposed to be practitioners of democracy?

It's absurd.

And Pelsar, I have been "a local" and i do know the history and culture.

[shira]

75. The Turks and Brits occupied Palestine before Israel was established, but Jews built democracratic

institutions there in spite of all that.

The transition into statehood in 1948 was made easier by the fact that nearly all democratic institutions were in place beforehand.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

76. You compare the British Mandate to the Israeli occupation? Really?

[shira]

77. you think if Jews treated Brit troops like Hamas treats IDF, they'd have fared better? Really?

[oberliner]

78. What is your source for the claim that the unemployment rate is over 50%?

And are you talking only about Gaza or is the West Bank included in that statistic?

[oberliner]

11. Again, I am just sharing with you the I/P guidelines from the DU moderators

In case it was not clear, I was citing them directly (with the link provided immediately thereafter).

Everything before the posted link was a direct quote from the DU I/P Guidelines page.

Everything posted after the link was my own opinions.

Personally, I cannot imagine someone who is "pro-Likud" feeling particularly welcome here (nor should they). During the fairly recent Israeli elections, I do not recall anyone rooting for Likud at this site.

With respect to Hamas, I have observed some posters have been more apt to support their version of the events of June 2007 over the Fatah version. (Abbas claimed it was a pre-meditated attack by Hamas to expel Fatah from Gaza and take over control of the region, while Hamas claims they were merely acting in defense against an impending attack against them).

In any event, my point is only that anyone who is interested in a peaceful resolution to the conflict and is willing to engage in reasonable and rational discussion ought to be embraced by folks here (as the DU I/P Guidelines suggest).

[shergald]

13. And your purpose in quoting the DU guidelines was...???

As for Fatah's version of events, right here in the US we received news in major papers that Bush gave funds and military equipment to Fatah in order to overthrow Hamas in Gaza. Does anyone deny that it was an Israeli-US effort? Perhaps it was Bush's stupidity (again) which created this mess, since he should have had the intelligence to know that Hamas would win a substantial vote in the election. It was based on Fatah corruption, and the fact that Hamas ran schools, medical clinics, and social services for their people. In other words, it was not corrupt. In the end, we found ourselves carrying water for Israel, which itself has been accused of state terrorism, given reports during the second Intifada was wanton killing of civilians, especially children. Is that beyond discussion here?

But a democratic election it was, monitored by the Carter Center, and it should have been respected. Hamas never indicated an intention to take over and press for an autocratic government. So much for democracy.

[oberliner]

14. To dispute your implication that a "cadre of proIsrael bloggers" joining up would be a bad thing

You claimed that liberal blogs cannot afford more "proIsrael proponents" whereas I think the DU I/P Guidelines support my view, which is that such an influx would be welcome, provided they adhere to the principles outlined in those guidelines that I cited.

[shergald]

17. I was actually thinking of Daily Kos.

As for DU, there are plenty proIsrael bloggers here I believe and they are plenty active. But what that has to do with DU regulations is beyond me.

Give Daily Kos a ring sometime.

[oberliner]

20. With respect to Daily Kos

I've read Daily Kos a bit but mostly related to US domestic political issues. Have not seen too much on there about the I/P conflict.

[shergald]

31. The output varies from 4 to 8 IP diaries a day, if I'm not mistaken.

There would be more, except that DKos had banned close to 30 proP diarists, compared only 2 proI diarists. Still based on polling patterns, the community is not unexpectedly divided 75/25 toward the Palestinian side among those interested in the area. Well, this is a liberal/progressive site.

[shira]

33. is it liberal/progressive to never condemn Hamas for what they do to Palestinian Gazans?

Examples ranging from inciting children to be 'martyrs' for the cause, teaching them to be raving antisemites, using the population as a human shield, not giving equal rights to women, gays, and christians, etc.?

Is it liberal/progressive to be indifferent to all that and not organize or advocate for positive changes that would lead to REAL human rights and protection of civil liberties, tolerance, etc..in the territories? Or are the Palestinians not worth all that to "real" progessives/liberals? They don't rate?

Because if being liberal/progressive and pro-Palestinian is all about demonizing Israel, that's what Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia do - and they're NOT liberal/progressive and they CERTAINLY do not give a shit about Palestinians (but rather the Palestinian 'cause', to eliminate Israel).

So tell me again what's liberal/progressive about YOUR cause. How does it differ from the Iranian and Syrian "progressive" program on I/P?

[shergald]

35. You've been either taken in by propaganda or are knowingly plying it here a mile a minute.

Your post is not worthy of a response. Sorry.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shergald]

45. Keep waiting.

Anyone who is supportive of Israel's 60 year ethnic cleansing, occupation, and colonization of Palestinian land should not be asking questions. They have too much answer to.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. No-one has to show anything to you...

I see yr yet again flinging round false accusations about other posters and pretending you know what they think even after assuring me only a few threads ago you were going to stop doing that...

You need to read the rules of this forum, because they apply to you as much as they apply to anyone else in this forum. And please don't speak on behalf of everyone here like you did at the end of that post. I've got no problem at all with Shergold, and find it hilarious that some posters here are focusing on where else he/she posts even though they either say nothing about or actually participate in a forum elsewhere that pumps out a constant flow of insults and abuse towards Skinner, the I/P mods and some DUers. So this is to the whole bunch of you. Spare me the fake and selective outrage. I'm sick of seeing you (and you all know who you are) be so nasty and unwelcoming to someone who's only just started posting here and who hasn't been abusive to you. I saw someone wonder why there's no Palestinians posting here. Well, there have been one or two join up and stay briefly, but one in particular joined while there were two 'supporters' of Israel who believed that most Palestinians were supporters of terrorism and who in the case of one of them blamed individual Palestinians personally for antisemitism. Who's going to join this forum and hang around when the abuse and attempts to drive people away are so blatant?

[shira]

63. I wasn't addressing you, so why are you butting in?

I don't think it's too much to ask for anyone purporting to champion Palestinian human rights to show where they have EVER advocated for Palestinians AGAINST Hamas WRT incitement to violence, recruiting children as child martyrs, brainwashing the next generation to be antisemitic haters, use of children and women as shields, or advocating FOR women and gay rights, freedom of religion (for christians and jews in Palestinian territory), freedoms of speech, assembly, dissent, fighting corruption in government, teaching Palestinians english and tolerance of others' views, etc.

Shergald is the one who brought up progressive/liberal values.

How can any progressive/liberal advocate for human rights but be so indifferent to all that is mentioned above?

I want to know.

If I wish to see Israel slammed and bashed, there's the regressive PRESSTV as well as the propaganda outlets from Hamas and Hezbollah. If I wish to see a truly liberal/progressive view on I/P, I should expect nothing different than what passes for the regressive viewpoint on I/P?

Come on now, what's the difference b/w what Shergald perceives as progressive/liberal and the regressive PRESSTV viewpoint?

[Violet_Crumble]

64. I'm not butting in. I didn't realise I needed yr permission to reply to posts...

Should I also have asked for permission before I hit alert on that post of yrs that was full of abuse and personal attacks?

I'm sure someone else somewhere is interested in that other stuff yr going on about, but I think I've made it very clear to you many times now that no-one should feel obligated to satisfy you of all people as to whether or not they 'champion' Palestinian human rights. It's all just a bit too silly...

[shira]

65. but I'm not interested at all in what you think & I'm not sure why you think I do

And if I'm interested in abuse and personal attacks, I can always look to your posts as the standard for that.

Projecting your faults again, I see?

Do I really need to remind you of your "fuck off you creepy idiot" personal abuse? Does that rate as something that should mods should be alerted on?

[Violet_Crumble]

67. Gosh, maybe it's coz you keep on asking me 'questions' all the time...

Um, yr post was deleted because it was full of abuse and personal attacks. I'm not sure why yr trying to turn that one round on me, as I try to steer clear of insults and personal attacks, which is why very few of my posts ever get deleted. Feel free to alert on any of my posts where you think there's personal attacks, though :)

[shira]

68. no, you butted in - remember?

And you asked the question at the end of post #61.

Whatever. Flame with yourself all you want.

[Violet_Crumble]

69. I'm not butting in. I didn't realise I needed yr permission to reply to posts...

And I didn't ask *you* any questions. You need to reread that post. And you need to stop pretending it wasn't you who had a post full of abuse and personal attacks deleted from this subthread...

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[shergald]

48. 7.46 diaries tagged "Israel" posted DAILY on Daily Kos.

....on average. Needless to say, there is a similar number tagged "Palestine" and/or "Palestinian."

The search I did was from today back one year. Over 2700 diaries came up so tagged. You can replicate the search yourself, anyone can using Daily Kos' search function. It's right on the front page.

Daily Kos along with Huffington Post and Salon were recently cited as part of the left wing conspiracy against Israel. Lost the link on this point, sorry.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. I'm not sure what the point was you were trying to make...

That if someone doesn't support the Kahanists or Hamas or those other things the writer of that spiel claims will lead to banning, then they're 'actively seeking a peaceful and respectful settlement and are genuinely interested in a rational discourse of events in the I/P conflict.'? If so, that's completely wrong, and all you have to do is look at a handful of regulars in this forum to see so.

Also, I can think of some posters who have been sympathetic to both Likud and its leaders. I'm not sure how you can tell whether they felt welcome or not, as I had no idea how they felt in that regard. Feel free to PM me if you need to be reminded who those posters were and how long they lasted in this forum before they were finally banned...

Finally, who gets to decide what a peaceful resolution is? Not everyone would agree on it or how to get there and the same goes for engaging in reasonable and rational discussion. I'm sure as hell not going to embrace someone like that Aussie Dave blogger who would more than likely describe himself as those things, but in reality is anything but...

[oberliner]

24. You could be "proIsrael" and "progressive" at the same time

I think that my citation from the forum guidelines shows that the administration of this board at least does not believe that "proIsrael" means "not progressive"

The poster to whom I was responding appeared to be indicating otherwise with warnings that appeared to be expressing concerns about progressive blogs having cadres of "proIsrael" posters signing up.

[shergald]

34. That comment was based on the loose interpretation of Israel's appeal....

and should not be taken that seriously.

As for the matter of progressive values and support for Israel, if that refers to the Israeli right wing, which is in charge today, then indeed there is conflict of values. Alternatively, some people have described that conflict as "exceptionalism," which is to say, right wing values can be supported vis a vis Israel, while progressive values can be supported at home in the US. It must certainly take some compartmentalization in one's mind to carry that off. On the other hand, there are progressives who do in fact believe they are also supportive of Israel, but not the right wing trajectory it now takes. Such people are consistent in their values and comfortable with them.
And of course, they are not anti-Palestinian. FOr that matter, support for the Likud government comes primarily from the right wing in the US.

[azurnoir]

22. Well there is at least one poster who while not

proclaiming support of Likud certainly does promote whatever Israel wants "this week" so to speak

[cali]

36. coming from you

that's hilarious.

[azurnoir]

21. True enough and in addition if you log out of DU

I/P does not show up on the list of topic forums

[oberliner]

23. You can add it to "Your Forums" if it is a topic you are interested in

Then it will show up every time you log in.

Anyone who is interested in I/P issues can read and post articles on the topic in this forum fairly easily.

[azurnoir]

26. my point was that for a "lurker" (unregistered)

I/P would not be immediately found making propaganda outside of registered users more difficult

[oberliner]

27. Well screw the lurkers!

They ought to just sign up and join!

[azurnoir]

28. hey be nice most of us started as lurkers n/t

[shergald]

51. That is incredible.

I'm also not seeing anything pertaining to the IP conflict on the frontpage when I check. Maybe I'm checking on the wrong days, but my impression is that DU has tucked IP in a hole where it receives less attention. Then again I am impressed that DU does a tally of diary views. Even though there is probably replication from people who keep coming back to a diary, it is helpful information to know.

[oberliner]

52. You should have been here during the fighting in Lebanon

Israel was on the front page fairly often and events related to that conflict were quite extensively argued (sometimes rather discourteously) in the main forums.

[shergald]

58. Well I suppose at some point the ig-norance gets embarassing.

The Lebanon invasion occurred in 2006. That was four years ago.

Is that how it works: every four years or so, the big big admins allow Israel and/or Palestine to appear on the frontpage?

[shergald]

7. "500 Artists Against Israeli Apartheid'

It seems that for every effort on Israel's behalf to mend its brand, several more sources of support of boycotts and sanctions against Israel surface, this one from Montreal, Canada.

"A call from Montreal artists to support the international campaign for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against Israeli apartheid…

Today, a broad spectrum of Montreal artists are standing in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle for freedom and supporting the growing international campaign for Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) against the Israeli state. Last winter, the Israeli state launched a violent military assault on the Palestinian people of the Gaza Strip, leaving over 1400 Palestinians dead, including over 300 children. Despite the official end of military operations, the blockade continues to this day, with devastating consequences for Gaza’s residents."

Read on here and for the 500 signatories to this announcement: http://www.tadamon.ca/post/5824

Gaza damaged Israel, and as the news of more and more atrocities comes out, the worse it gets. And all of that is just added to by Netanyahu's serial announcements that Israel is taking more and more of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, intensifying the colonialism, and not permitting a Palestinian state to emerge.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. The train has left the station. If Israel continues its current path, it will be be a pariah state,

just as South Africa was.

Slowly but surely, the truth of the sham of Oslo is getting out.

[shergald]

54. You're absolutely correct. Oslo was a hoax, a sham.

Following the Oslo Accords, during the Clinton administration, the number and/or rate of settlers moving into the Palestinian territories doubled. Likewise, although Areas A and B were allotted to the Palestinians for supervision, Area C which surrounded Jerusalem, was given to the IDF for supervision. And look at what happened. Israel practically cut off Jerusalem to the Palestinians by accelerating building in the major settlements, the cities that now surround it. It was intended to cut the Palestinians off from any claim to East Jerusalem, and we are seeing that strategy implemented today.

I prefer the term hoax because while the Norweigians were well intended, they fell for the trap, along with the Palestinians. I really thought that Arafat was smarter than that. C'est la vie.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

55. Ultimately (and sadly) Arafat was more interested in building his power base than in building a

country. We actually moved back in 1995, and observed first-hand the corruption. For example, there was a ton of building going on. The PA would award *one* company with the contract to import concrete. They were more concerned with lining their pockets than in building an economy. But even then, since there was no rule of law, no free press... what could one upset individual do?

That's my biggest beef with the Oslo negotiations. They undercut the work of the local leaders who had been building the frameworks of democratic institutions.

I often wonder why Israel engaged in this with the Palestinians? If the goal is a stable neighbor, why bring in a corrupt dictator?

It was against the backdrop of 10 years of this kind of corruption that Hamas won the last elections. They didn't campaign on "kassams" they campaigned (rightly) against corruption. TPTB in Israel and the US made certain they never had a chance to govern.

Be all that as it may, it's still necessary for Palestinians to face is square on, dust themselves off, and start over.

[pelsar]

57. you tell me....

what would have happened if israel ignored arafat and the PLO...

do you remember Bashir Jamayel in lebanon..."our man" in Lebanon....he was assassinated. Not to mention if israel ignored arafat it would be called meddling in Palestinians affairs (isnt that what your always accusing israel of ?). What about those Palestinians who agreed to work with israel?..i believe you call them collaborators.

you can't have it both ways..in case your forgot arafat received a welcome worthy of a conquering hero when he arrived......it may be behind the circus a lot of Palestinians knew better, but they sure kept their mouths shut.....they didn't have a choice.

israel didn't have a choice, even though we knew better, he was the acknowledged leader not just by the Palestinians but by the UN, and every world leader he went to visit..he was also a conniving double face corrupt son of a bitch...(but on that we agree)

[shergald]

62. I don't agree that Arafat was the cause of the fall of Oslo or Canp David.

Israel since 1967 has been on a single minded trajectory to colonialize the Palestinian territories, and nothing Arafat, corrupt or not, could have done to stop it. We are seeing its culmination today. Even while Arafat was in Palestine, the colonization continued supported by the occupation, and during the 90s and Clinton's administration, the number of settlers moving into the West Bank DOUBLED. At Camp David, Clinton's last minute effort, there was nothing that Arafat could have given or demanded that would have made any difference. There was not going to be any deal. Why?

In 2005, Ehud Barak, the Labor PM of Israel, finally admitted that not even a single member of his own party in the Knesset would have voted to disengage (Sharon's term for withdraw) a single settlement. A Palestinian state was a no go. Where would such a state exist? In spite of Barak's impotence, Arafat got blamed for refusing the "generous offer," which was concocted by Clinton Middle East advisor, Dennis Ross.

Here's a map of the configuration of settlements in the West Bank which is roughly the same as in 2000. Note that the 100 or so illegal hilltop outposts, some of which have been there for 20 years are not shown.



If Barak could not even get his own secular party to vote on a state necessitating withdrawal of settlements, you can believe that Netanyahu with a right wing Knesset would be even more stimmied, even if he desired such a state, which he obviously doesn't.

So get ready for the Apartheid phase of this conflict, which is essentially already here, though maybe not formalized.

[pelsar]

83. of course you dont...because you don't understand ......

what the role of arafat vs the local intifada leadership was all about...in fact i doubt you have any idea what i just wrote about.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

70. Israel encouraged and enabled every ounce of his corruption.

While I can see the benefits in the short-term, a country seriously committed to peaceful relations with their neighbors don't engage in that.

[shira]

74. yeah, right - and if Israel locked Arafat out, they would have been blamed for meddling...

....and depriving Palestinians of their preferred leadership.

Israel is to blame no matter what.

[pelsar]

82. even arafat was in israelis pocket?

jesus....for a country that sure does control everything....we sure seem to have a problem controlling anything.

...you must have one of the lowest opinions of the Palestinians that i have ever come across from someone who actually knows Palestinians. Even Arafats corruption is israels fault.

[shira]

84. well duh, Israelis responsible for 100% of mess, Palestinians 0%

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. The international poll in this article is certainly interesting -

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/for-israel-every-traveller-is-an-ambassador/article1479056/

[shergald]

49. Part of the results are due to the propaganda war Israel has waged in the US.

Thanks for this data.

The main reason that Israel gets more positive ratings in the US, IMO, is that there has been a very strong effort to censor news about the IP conflict here, and to present the conflict with bias favoring Israel: the only democracy in the Middle East, our ally, fighting terrorism, and so on. Words like ethnic cleansing, occupation, colonialism are never heard.

For those interested, I posted this documentary before about the propaganda war Israel has waged in the US.

Peace, Propaganda, & The Promised Land (with Noam Chomsky, Robert Fisk, Arik Ackerman, and many others)

Part I:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCL6WdnuNp4

Part II:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mo2HW4T7wK4

[oberliner]

50. How do you explain Nigeria?

Why do you think Israel has the highest positive number from Nigeria, even higher than the US?

[shergald]

66. Thank Golda Meir.

"Israel’s ties with Nigeria - the most populated country in Africa - date from the late 1950s, since the early days of its pre-independence period. After Nigerian independence in 1960, full diplomatic relations were established between the two countries. These ties were an expression of the affinity with Israel, itself a young state that had achieved independence in 1948 and was eager to share its experience and expertise with the newly independent African state.

During the 1960s and early 1970s, Israel played a unique and significant role in the development of Sub-Saharan Africa, including Nigeria. As part of the Israeli government's African policy, designed by Foreign Minister Golda Meir (who later became Israel's Prime Minister), hundreds of Israeli experts and volunteers were sent to help in the continent's development and modernization of agriculture, educational network, medical institutions and technological training programmes. Hundreds of Nigerian farmers, experts, educators, academicians, students, doctors, community workers and engineers were trained in Israel. Top level ministerial meetings of both countries were held and friendly relations, beneficial to both peoples, were developed."

http://abuja.mfa.gov.il/mfm/web/main/document.asp?SubjectID=107091&MissionID=20397&LanguageID=0&StatusID=0&DocumentID=-1

[oberliner]

73. Diplomatic relations between Israel and Nigeria were severed in 1973

They were not restored again until 1992.

I still would love to know why you think Israel has a higher positive rating in Nigeria than in the United States.

[shergald]

79. Got me!

Nostalgia?

[oberliner]

80. How about race?

Outside of the Middle East, the country that gave Israel the lowest positive rating (Poland) is the one that has the most homogeneously Caucasian population of the countries on the list.

The positive numbers climbed in countries whose population consist primarily of people of color.

India, for example gave Israel a higher positive than negative ranking (24-22), while Nigeria gave Israel the highest positive ranking of all (45) as I noted previously.

Kenya, which was left off of your graphic but was included in the poll, gave Israel a ranking similar to the one given by Nigeria.

[Douglas Carpenter]

81. In the case of India I would suspect it is largely coming from anti-Muslim sentiment

where there has been real tension between sections of he Hindu majority and sections of the Muslim minority - Until recently the fiercely anti-Muslim political party, the BJP was the largest political party. Fortunately that has changed and the more secular, modern thinking and multi-community Congress Party lead coalition now dominates. However, I have heard on more than one occasion, Indian Hindus express sympathy toward the state of Israel because they saw Israel as anti-Muslim. Remember, India was one of the very few countries in the world where George W. Bush was quite popular and I suspect largely for that reason also.

There is of course a fair degree of tension between Christians and Muslims in Nigeria. I would make a guess that most sympathy for Israel comes from the Christian community and perhaps it comes from similar thinking.

Either way, 24% primarily positive versus 22% primarily negative in India and 45% primarily positive versus 31% primarily negative - doesn't really tell us a whole lot and without more data one can only speculate on reasons.

In the specific case of Poland, I would actually make a guess that in that particular country anti-Semitism would be a major factor. I have worked with a number of people from Poland and it became clear to me that old-style European anti-Semitism was very much alive there.

Given that only three non-white, non-Muslim countries were listed in this survey. I don't think one can ascribe race to being the issue. South Korea is the only other non-Muslim, Non-white country included in this survey - 62% negative versus 22% positive - I have no idea why. South Korea is non-white, non-Muslim, has a sizable Christian minority, I doubt there is any particular popular connection with either Israel or with the Arab world and they are far removed from any direct effects or emotional connection with any of the parties to the conflict - at least that I am aware of.