Dubai Police Chief Says He Knows an Israeli When He Sees One

[oberliner]

Dubai’s police chief, Gen. Dahi Khalfan al-Tamim, said on Monday that the famously open city may soon block people who look or sound like Israelis from entering, no matter what passport they produce.

Until now, the police chief told a local newspaper, Dubai had allowed Israelis with dual citizenship to use a second passport to enter the emirate. That may change, though, after the police in Dubai found that 27 suspects in the assassination of a visiting Hamas official were found to have traveled on forged British, Irish, French, German and Australian passports.

The National, an Abu Dhabi newspaper, reported on Monday that Mr. Tamim “claimed the police could identify Israelis by physical features and the way they speak.”

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/dubai-police-chief-says-he-knows-an-israeli-when-he-sees-one/

[rocktivity]

1. Sounds like he doesn't know a smart police chief when he sees one

rocktivity

[proteus_lives]

2. Really?

He sounds like an Arab Barney Fife.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

3. Begining to look more and more that way

I tend to think like Chavez his statements are more for regional not global consumption. Neither realize how asinine they sound outside of their little corner of the globe

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Leaves one to wonder....

...will that apply to all Israelis?

[Igel]

5. I'm pretty sure that if you have an Israeli passport

and try to use it to enter Dubai the answer is "no"--unless special permission is granted. I've heard--but don't know if I believe--that it's Israeli citizens that are banned but that enforcement is a bitch so they just draw the line at passports.

I do have to wonder how they handle Arab Israelis, now that you mention it. Perhaps they're always granted "special permission."

[Ken Burch]

7. Most Israeli Arabs are dirt poor, thanks to years of discrimination. They can't AFFORD to travel.

n/t.

[oberliner]

12. That is completely false

Most Israeli Arabs are not dirt poor and many of them do travel to other countries.

[Ken Burch]

13. A tiny handful could afford a ticket to Dubai.

Most have never been treated as equals in Israeli society. Even if they have equality in theory, it's never been given in practice.

The fact that there might be a handful of wealthy collaborators is meaningless. There were a handful of wealthy blacks in South Africa in the old days.

[oberliner]

14. This is not true

First of all, there is no such thing as a ticket to Dubai from Israel so there is really no way of knowing what something like that would cost.

A ticket to Dubai from Egypt costs the equivalent of around 400 American dollars.

Many more than a "tiny handful" of Israeli Arabs could afford that.

And they are not "wealthy collaborators" whatever the hell that means.

Israeli Arabs have a much higher average income than citizens of most of the other states in the region.

[Ken Burch]

15. Apologists for the South African regime

liked to point out that blacks in South Africa had a higher income level than blacks in other African countries.
As if that justified the sjambok, the bantustans, banning orders and Robben Island.


(and no, I'm not saying you ARE comparable to an apologist for apartheid, but you need to see where the arguments get to sounding similar.)

[oberliner]

16. Apologists for the South African regime have nothing to do with your false claim

There is one, and only one, point that I am making here.

You made this statement:

7. Most Israeli Arabs are dirt poor, thanks to years of discrimination. They can't AFFORD to travel.

I believe that statement to be false.

My assertion is that most Israeli Arabs are not dirt poor and that many of them (more than a tiny handful) can afford to travel and do so.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

22. "but our second-class citizens have it GOOD!"

[shaayecanaan]

23. That's not true, either...

the average income of Arab Israelis is less than half that of Jews - about USD $13,000.00 a year. For a single-income family that is below the poverty line.

The average income in Saudi Arabia is about $25,000 USD (for Saudis). The other wealthy gulf states, Bahrain, Oman, Qatar etc have reasonably similar income levels.

Obviously Jordan, Syria, Iraq and Egypt have much lower per capita incomes. On the other hand, on a purchasing power parity basis a person with an income of $10,000 in Syria would have a much higher standard of living than someone with a similar income in Israel.

When I was a junior hotel manager in the late 90s, I would estimate we had about 200 Israeli guests, about 200 Lebanese guests and about 100 Saudi guests over a 6 year period. Not one of the Israelis was Arab.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Thanks for correcting that...

I spotted it and was going to go off looking up average incomes in that region, but I got distracted and didn't get round to it...

[oberliner]

27. Please feel free to look up average incomes in the region

You will find that all of the information I presented is accurate:

Israeli Arabs have a much higher average income than citizens of most of the other states in the region.

Any research into that question will confirm that fact.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. You didn't post any actual incomes...

What you posted wasn't true, and thanks to Shaay for correcting you. He's posted information that shows yr wrong,so maybe you should just go back to taking petty swipes at how I post...

[oberliner]

39. What I posted was true, there was no correction. Link provided.

No information presented shows that anything I posted was wrong.

Perhaps looking at Wikipedia might help you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

You will note Israel at a rate of 28,271. Assuming the claim that the Arab-Israeli average is half of that - their rate would be a little over 14,135

The countries in the region with a higher rate than 14,135 are:

Qatar, Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, Oman, and Saudi Arabia.

The countries in the region with a lower rate than 14,135 are:

Yemen, Iraq, Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Algeria, Iran, Tunisia, and Lebanon.

Thus, the statement regarding Israeli Arabs having a higher average income than most of the countries (10 vs. 6) in the region is an accurate one.

In terms of the countries in the immediate area of Israel (Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt) - Israeli Arabs have an average income about two to three times higher than any of their neighbors.

[Violet_Crumble]

40. No, it wasn't. It was you trying to make out Israeli Arabs have it good...

btw, you really should read this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x303590#304061

[oberliner]

26. Israeli Arabs have double to triple the average income of the countries you mentioned

You mentioned Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt.

You can add Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, and Algeria to that list.

[oberliner]

28. Which countries does the "etc." represent?

The only countries where the per capita income is higher are the four Gulf States that you mentioned plus Kuwait. You, of course, realize that four of those countries, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, and Kuwait, have a combined population that is not even 1/10th the population of Egypt, where the per capita income is about three times lower than that of Israeli Arabs. In any case, the remaining dozen countries have significantly lower per capita incomes than do Israeli Arabs, thus confirming the accuracy of my statement.

[LeftishBrit]

29. The thing is, what does 'average' income mean in a place like Saudi Arabia?

There are quite a number of people there who are obscenely rich and that may bring up the average per capita income artificially. What is the proportion of people who have a *low* income?

There is no doubt that Israeli Arabs suffer a lot of economic discrimination, and this is reflected in health and life expectancy.

How well Arabs do in other states is not strictly relevant to that (though it's relevant to the general issue of poverty in the Middle East). After all, it's not as though most Israeli Arabs could move to these countries even if they wished to.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I agree that how well Arabs do in other states isn't relevant to...

...the fact that Israeli Arabs do suffer from economic discrimination, and I'm not sure why Oberliner brought it up. An example I'd use to show how it's not relevant to that is to point out that indigenous Australians do suffer from economic discrimination and are much worse off than non-indigenous Australians. Many don't travel, but some do, and on another forum I used to post on, supporters of Pauline Hanson used to argue that because some are well off and do travel that represents indigenous people on average. I could also point out that the average income of an indigenous Australian is far more than that of the average salary in Papua New Guinea or the Solomon Islands, but pointing that out isn't relevant and doesn't take away from the obvious fact that they're a group that suffers from economic discrimination and poverty....

[oberliner]

41. Your claims are completely unsupported by facts

You seem to have no idea what the average income of an indigenous Australian is also.

[Violet_Crumble]

42. Well you best educate me then as to what they are and what was wrong with my post...

If you disagree with what I had to say about how average income of a region is irrelevant to economic discrimination, feel free to add something to the conversation explaining why you don't agree. But right now I'm finding yr bizarre reaction to what I said about indigenous Australians to be very similar to a reaction that members of One Nation used to give on a forum I posted on ages ago. Surely you don't want to have anything in common with them? It's a fact that indigenous Australians are victims of long-term discrimination and racism. The last thing I expected was a DUer reacting the way you did...

[LeftishBrit]

46. Where did Oberliner or anyone say that indigenous Australians are NOT victims of long-term

discrimination and racism?

You sometimes read all kinds of things into posts that are not there. I suppose we all do at times, but right at the moment you seem to be reading a number of posts according to your suspicions, rather than what's actually said.

[Violet_Crumble]

47. "Your claims are unsupported by facts" That's the one...

So don't accuse me of seeing something that's not there when it most definately is....

I suppose we all do at times...

'You suppose'? You might want to go back and read some of Oberliner's posts aimed at me and then you might work out why I find it so annoying that you turn up at this particular point to tell me off...

[LeftishBrit]

50. Well, since you've brought it up...

You might want to go back and read some of your posts aimed at Oberliner and then you might work out why I find it such a mixture of annoying and funny that you turn up to tell me or him off for this particular reason...

You are as you say yourself pretty blunt about telling someone when you think they're wrong. Fair enough; no harm in being so. But it's a bit funny when you then complain about someone else telling you bluntly when *he* thinks you're wrong.

To get back to the issues, I agree that Arabs suffer severe economic discrimination in Israel; and support the New Israel Fund and similar organizations for that and other reasons, despite the fact that some politicians and journalists would think I'm a dangerous foreign subversive for that reason.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I might if I didn't suspect it was going to be more like the false accusation you just did...

Sorry, but you did just pop up and accuse me of seeing something that wasn't there when it most definately was. Also, I did NOT complain about someone else telling me blunthy when *he* thinks I'm wrong, and I've actually got no idea at all about what yr referring to now.

[shaayecanaan]

44. What does it mean in a place like Israel?

Somewhere between a little and a whole lot.

Obviously, the average income of an Arab Israeli in nominal figures is higher than a Jordanian (I think its $13,000 vs $5,000 from memory). I think the average in Lebanon is about $5,000 as well (from memory).

But obviously, the cost of living is a lot less. I bought a villa nearly on the beach for $86,000 USD, admittedly a few years ago. You would be flat out buying anything comparable in Israel for anything less than five to eight times that number.

[LeftishBrit]

48. Thanks for pointing this out...

Even in the UK, there can be a huge difference between the position of someone living in London and someone with the same income living in the north of England.

[Ken Burch]

6. And I'm sure he's seen at least two or three of them....somewhere...

in a book, maybe...

or does that just mean he'll keep out anybody who looks like Ziva David?

[Alamuti Lotus]

8. Wonderfully retarded bluster

Considering that this buffoon allowed one of the dumbest teams of assassins in the history of espionage commit this clumsy murder under his watch, his statements are just funny.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. Farrakhan's an anti-semite, too.

Meanwhile, 30,000 new housing units are being planned for the ring around Ramallah.

Oh well.

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. Please don't pay attention to that stuff...

I mean, really, some guy SAID something. That's far more important than real, actual actions with ongoing tangible results. Please.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

17. Exactly. 16 posts on a bunch of silly fluff. 30,000 housing units? Crickets.

[oberliner]

18. More than 10 percent of those posts being yours

Although I do agree with you in the sense that numerous important OP's get ignored while less significant ones often result in numerous responses.

There are multiple posts on the ramblings of Martin Kramer for instance, one of which now has over thirty responses.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

19. Except unlike the idiot police chief, Kramer is warmly welcomed at Harvard. You think

these stories are equally silly?

Seriously?

You're the one who posted this nonsense. Why, if not to distract from real issues?

[oberliner]

20. Harvard warmly welcomes a lot of unpleasant people

The story I posted is directly related to an ongoing current international scandal related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The decisions made in Dubai will have real-life consequences for people in the region.

Kramer giving a speech at Harvard is really not going to have any impact on anything.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jefferson23]

30. By what measure do you make that assertion?

Re:"Kramer giving a speech at Harvard is really not going to have any impact on anything."

[LeftishBrit]

32. Well, compare Kramer's influence with that of Netanyahu, or Avigdor Lieberman, or Haniyeh

or Geert Wilders or Nick Griffin or Pat Robertson?


It really isn't quite on the same level.

That doesn't mean that it's not utterly disgusting, or that we shouldn't be talking about it, or that he shouldn't IMO be fired. But academics on the whole don't have that huge an influence. Comparable to Kramer is for instance Kevin McDonald with his antisemitic and generally neofascist nuttery, or Kanazawa of LSE, with his wild statements that all the problems of Africans are due to low IQs (published in a quite respectable psychology journal!), that feminism is 'evil', and that Ann Coulter should be president, the better to nuke some Muslims. These people are important; they should not be using their academic platforms to spread bigotry. But they are still not as influential as government members, or religious leaders like Pat Robertson. (How many people here had even heard of Kramer, McDonald or Kanazawa until this week? I have heard of the latter two because they work in areas a little too close to mine for comfort - though not VERY close; and I had not heard of Kramer until he came up here.)

[Jefferson23]

33. I appreciate the response.

I will await oberliners, as it relates to his remarks here:

"Harvard warmly welcomes a lot of unpleasant people
Edited on Thu Mar-04-10 02:33 PM by oberliner
The story I posted is directly related to an ongoing current international scandal related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The decisions made in Dubai will have real-life consequences for people in the region.

Kramer giving a speech at Harvard is really not going to have any impact on anything." (end)

I think it is difficult to measure the impact of Kramer's speech one way or the other, and although I do support academic freedom, even his, the posting and relevance of the OP seems to be what oberliner is questioning. I find his standing at Harvard relevant, but for me it is the lack of a strong response from fellow colleagues that is the most striking.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. Of course what academics say has an impact!

There's a connection between academia and the man in the street, and when hatred is brewing, they feed off each other. I learnt about that in detail when I did Genocide Studies, and the Armenian genocide and the destruction of European Jews were two examples that were gone into and the connections shown. The dehumanisation of a group by academics and professionals is one of the first stages of a genocide, and even if it doesn't go on to the further stages of physical destruction, it's most definately something that has influence and shouldn't be downplayed, which is exactly what Oberliner looks like he was doing...

[Violet_Crumble]

24. You do realise 'the ramblings of Martin Kramer' was a disgusting display of bigotry?

When you say things like that surely you can't wonder why I now suspect you of trying to minimise hatred towards Palestinians? Especially when yr always one of the first to voice yr outrage whenever someone has said something of an antisemitic nature...

[LeftishBrit]

31. This isn't a competition...

There is plenty of bigotry to go round on both sides; and all of it is to be condemned.

Kramer is disgusting, and the Kramer issue is particularly interesting (and revolting) to me because the issue of people misusing university status and 'research' to propagandize racism hits close to home, being a researcher myself, and in an area fairly close to one where some notorious abuses have occurred. But it's true that he's not wildly influential on wider political affairs. An anti-Arab bigot who is, is Avigdor Lieberman, and Oberliner has *certainly* posted anti-Lieberman posts.

[Violet_Crumble]

34. Never thought it was. But it is hypocritical and minimising bigotry against Palestinians...

I appreciate that you feel the way you do, but I was talking about Oberliner's different standards when it comes to the way he expresses outrage over anything he sees as antisemitic, and the way he minimised this example of bigotry against Palestinians by calling it 'ramblings' and insisting it won't have an impact on anything. While he took the time to count the number of posts where people have expressed condemnation of what Kramer said, he himself hasn't. Unlike you, Oberliner has never spoken up when any posters in this forum express bigoted views against Arabs and Muslims, though he demands others do it when it comes to antisemitism and then abused me because he didn't like the way I'd worded my opposition to what one poster had said...

[LeftishBrit]

45. I really don't think that anyone 'abused' you on any of those threads....

and certainly not Oberliner. (If you mean saying that your claims were unsupported by facts, that's not abuse, just disagreement.)

The only abuse by anyone on the Kramer threads was for Kramer himself, and he deserves it IMO.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. He most definately did abuse me in a thread before his short 'retirement'

That's what I was referring to. Would you like a link to the thread where Oberliner got stuck into me and attacked me for my criticism of someone who said something I considered to be offensive and verging on antisemitic? It was most definately abusive and nasty.

Anyway, that's not the point of what I was saying in my post. I was talking about the hypocrisy in minimising bigotry against Palestinians that way while at the same time behaving in a completely different manner when it comes to antisemitism..

[pelsar]

38. backing up PM here......

didnt know exactly where to put this post.....

this stuff is highly emotional...and when your involved and see whats going on with your own eyes, there are things you just don't forget and they keep coming back in your brain.....

PMs involved and her viewpoints when they are more or when they are less emotional are valid. Oh she really really really hates the israeli govt...and to a certain degree us israelis who have elected all of those govts which have affected her directly....but thats ok. It would absurd to believe otherwise. But i have never see simply hate toward individual "people"...as a whole, as in a blanket hate of people with israeli citizenship. Just as i do not hate Palestinians on the individual level, yet on a national level, as a society I do not trust them at this point to establish a stable strong society (that PM will blame us for-figured i would beat you to it- PM)

and her participation here gives us a credible viewpoint that has to be heard, no matter how much one disagrees or even understands (that part is important-not understanding is just as important as listening). Now that said, i assume eventually she will listen to my words of wisdom and ability to see the future and one day..say "gosh pelsar, you are just sooo smart"....(just a bit of levity....nothing more)

----
a word about posting about hamas and police chief in Dubai....that stuff too is important. Hamas's doing in gaza is not to be ignored. Everytime they expand their version of theocratic law, its should be made known and spread, and PM..you should be spreading it too...it does your cause no good to have hamas expanding their powerbase-its makes it tougher on the Palestinians and on us. Aiding hamas is NOT a good thing,

And the demonization of israelis by Dubais police chief....that too is part of the conflict-demonization be it subtle or blatant is to exposed, where ever and however.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

43. So much for dialogue. nt