Abbas: Israel igniting Jerusalem

[shira]

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said Saturday that Israel's approval of more housing units in east Jerusalem would "ignite" the city.

Speaking at an Arab League summit in Libya Abbas said, "Jerusalem is the jewel of the crown and the key to peace – harming it will ignite fire."

"It is impossible to continue with peace efforts while construction resumes in the settlements. Saving Jerusalem from its 'Jewification' is a duty bestowed on each and every one of us," said Abbas.

"We emphasize that we will cling on to every grain of soil and every stone in Jerusalem. There will be no agreement that does not guarantee the end of the Israeli occupation of our land, especially holy Jerusalem as the capital of the Palestinian state."

more...
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3868807,00.html

[Mosby]

1. If J-lem is so holy to Palestinians

why do they turn their backs to it when they pray?

[Violet_Crumble]

2. Sorry, but that comment comes across as a bit on the bigoted side n/t

[cali]

8. a bit? that's straight out, unadulterated bigotry. fuck that crap.

[Violet_Crumble]

14. Yeah, I did understate it...

All I know is when I read that post, I got the same slimed on, gotta have a shower to wash it off feeling that I get when I read antisemitic comments. I do hope Mosby returns to this thread and explains why he'd say something so horrible...

[Mosby]

19. The al-Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock

are holy sites for Muslims, but what justification is there for considering all of J-lem holy to Muslims? No where in the Quran is J-lem even mentioned. In the past various Islamic dynasties controlled the city for more than 1300 years and yet none of them made the city a capitol of any dynasty, moreover during Turkish control the city was allowed to deteriorate, The Dome of the Rock even collapsed at one point. If you look at the sites considered holy to Muslims, they are specific places like mosques or cemeteries not cities.

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Now I'm not going to be so understated...

What you said was ugly and bigoted, which comes as no surprise considering you hang out on a forum that's run by Arab and Muslim hating extremists. For someone such as you who claims to be so opposed to bigotry, it does appear to me that the only bigotry yr really opposed to is antisemitism and not bigotry against Muslims or Arabs...

[cali]

7. ugh. what stupid bigotry. disgusting.

[IndianaGreen]

12. Jerusalem should be razed to the ground, and plutonium spread all over it

that will end this stupid religious conflict for at least the next 100,000 years.

Religion is the scourge of the human race. As Emma Goldman wrote in 1910:

Religion! How it dominates man's mind, how it humiliates and degrades his soul. God is everything, man is nothing, says religion. But out of that nothing God has created a kingdom so despotic, so tyrannical, so cruel, so terribly exacting that naught but gloom and tears and blood have ruled the world since gods began.

[Violet_Crumble]

16. While religion causes a lot of hate, more hate isn't the answer...

Plus I think normal and sane people who live in Jerusalem may have a problem with yr solution...

[IndianaGreen]

17. You have two children, one named Israel and the other Palestine, and they are quarreling over a toy

A toy you gave to one, but told him to share with the other. As a mother, what would you do? The answer is simple: take the toy away from both!

[oberliner]

3. That is a pretty strong statement from Abbas

When he refers to "every grain of soil and every stone in Jerusalem" is he including the Jewish Quarter in the Old City?

[azurnoir]

5. which Jewish Quarter the pre 67 one or thr the artificially created

on the conquered territory with the demolition of the Moroccan Quarter within mere days of the conquest as a starting point

[oberliner]

6. Have you ever been to the Old City Jerusalem?

If so, you know what the Jewish Quarter is.

That's what I am wondering about. Is Abbas including that section in the remarks he made?

There is a map on Wikipedia that may help you:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter_(Jerusalem) (Map can be found in the little box on the right at the top of the article)

Do you see on the above map where the "Western Wall Plaza" is indicated? That is the area where the Moroccan Quarter was located. Do you think that Abbas is only referring to that area or to the whole of the area indicated on the above map?

[azurnoir]

10. Thanks your attempt at obsfucation answered nicely n/t

[oberliner]

11. To try to be more clear

My question, that you still have not answered, is whether or not you think Abbas is including any portion of the area on that map when he talks about Jerusalem.

[azurnoir]

13. you were quite clear in your rather leading question

are you saying that Abbas is no different from the Israeli's? or somehow worse?let me ask which side is actively claiming land?

[oberliner]

18. I just want to know whether Abbas is refering to the entire Old City or not

That is the point that I am asking about.

[shaayecanaan]

20. I think the question was pretty clear myself...

whether the Jewish quarter amounts to only the old Jewish quarter, or the plaza, which was created by the destruction of the Moroccan quarter, including the crushing to death of Palestinians who were unable or unwilling to leave their homes.

[Scurrilous]

4. Eyewitness Report on the Judaization of East Jerusalem

<snip>

"From now on, I can never say I didn't know. This, thanks to Hagit Ofran, director of Peace Now's "Settlement Watch," who spends four hours schlepping us around East Jerusalem to see Palestinian properties that have been expropriated by the Israeli government or by Jewish settlers. We're a six-member delegation from Americans for Peace Now, the U.S. counterpart of Ofran's group, and we've come to assess the damage.

All the world knows by now that Interior Minister Eli Yishai announced the approval, during Vice President Biden's visit, of 1600 new housing units to be built for Jews in Ramat Shlomo. But Ramat Shlomo is just the tip of an iceberg that expands by the day as ultra-Orthodox and radical right-wing settlers work overtime to Judaize Palestinian neighborhoods in East Jerusalem.

When Israel unilaterally annexed the area in 1967, creating a metropolis three times the size of Jerusalem's pre-war borders, its 70,000 Arab residents were given residency status, not full citizenship. Today there are 250,000 Palestinians in the city, a third of its population. They pay taxes and receive social security and health benefits, but can't hold passports. They have voting rights in the municipality; theoretically, they could win a third of the seats in the Jerusalem City Council, but they don't exercise their vote as a statement of opposition to Israeli control.

Despite the annexation of East Jerusalem, which has never been recognized by the international community, the city has for years remained two separate entities. Arabs didn't wander about in Jewish neighborhoods and Jews rarely ventured into the Arab section. Then the settlers started planting themselves here, there, and everywhere, to advance their "undivided Jerusalem" agenda, and with their presence to make all Israelis feel the whole city belongs to them. Like settlers in the West Bank, those in East Jerusalem are busy creating "facts on the ground" to interrupt Palestinian contiguity between East Jerusalem and the West Bank, and prevent the Palestinian Authority from claiming the Arab part of the city as their capitol (a quid pro quo for any permanent agreement).

As the settlers take over one Arab house and hilltop after another, they demand security protection for themselves and their large families, further draining Israel's strained budget. According to Hagit Ofran, Peace Now's settlement watchdog, for every settler house, the government has to fund three round-the-clock guards, private police who perform like an escort service. In the Old City, Ofran has seen two little boys running down the street with two big guards with guns running after them to protect them. Protecting settlers costs Israeli taxpayers 54 four million shekels a year.

Since 1967, the Jerusalem municipality has issued five times as many housing permits for Jews than for Palestinians. Lately, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat has been condemning as "illegal" Palestinian homes that no Israel government paid attention to before. Because East Jerusalem never had zoning laws or urban planning oversight, Palestinians simply jerry-built their houses to accommodate their growing families. Suddenly, the authorities are closing in.

On past trips to the Territories, I've toured the large settlements initiated by the government on land confiscated beyond the Green Line to create a ring around the city and isolate it from West Bank. Today, with Hagit Ofran, we're looking at Jewish enclaves stuck smack in the middle of Arab neighborhoods expressly to Judaize East Jerusalem and make it difficult for any government to negotiate a shared city. Chutzpah is too tame a word for this behavior. My mother would have called it a shonde (disgrace)."

more

[cali]

9. While I agree with Abbas that the building of more housing for Jewish Israelis

in East Jerusalem, is a hostile act that can bring nothing but strife, I'm a bit perplexed about his statement about the "Jewification of Jerusalem". Jerusalem has long had a large Jewish population- and I mean well before 1948. By the 1870s, Jerusalem was majority Jewish.

[shaayecanaan]

21. Its not a new term....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaization_of_Jerusalem

[shaayecanaan]

22. Further...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaization_of_the_Galilee

whereby "Judaization" become official government policy for the first time.

[oberliner]

24. Fascinating discussion pages for both of those Wikipedia articles

For a collaborative project, some articles seem to be quite the one or two person shows.

[shaayecanaan]

25. Usually people adopt a single article

and then it gets fought out. Sort of like this place.

[azurnoir]

15. another article on Jerusalem that is informative

Jerusalem is a divided city. Since 1948 it has been a divided city and it will always remain a divided city. The political leadership of Israel speaks of a consensus on the future status of Jerusalem. This consensus, defined as the Israeli policy, supposedly is as follows: All of Jerusalem is Israel's eternal, undivided capital. All of Jerusalem must remain under Israeli sovereignty forever. I maintain that this is not really the consensus of Israeli opinion on Jerusalem but is in fact a rather narrow view of what should be the future of this city. The true consensus, as opposed to this mythical consensus, can be stated as follows:

All Israelis believe and desire that:

1. Jerusalem must never return to the status it had prior to June 1967. Jerusalem should never be physically divided. It must remain an open city with free access throughout its boundaries for all.

2. Personal security and security of property must be guaranteed for all in all parts of the city. No one should have to fear getting a knife in his back in any part of the city and no one should have to fear getting his car torched or other property damaged in any part of the city.

3. The new Jewish neighbourhoods built in East Jerusalem after 1967 must remain under Israeli sovereignty.

4. The Jewish Holy Places must remain under Israeli control. (This does not include the top of Temple Mount where Jews are not allowed to enter by Jewish Law).

Why do I think this is the true consensus? To begin with, if Israelis (and even Jerusalemites) were asked to draw a map of today's municipal boundaries, very few would be capable of completing the task. Moreover, if Israelis were asked to name the 18 neighbourhoods of Arab East Jerusalem, almost none of them would be able to do so.

If you asked Israelis how many of them have visited in those Arab neighbourhoods, the answer would be almost none. If you asked who would be interested in visiting those Arab neighbourhoods, the answer would be the same.

http://www.commongroundnews.org/article.php?id=20924&lan=en&sid=0&sp=0

the author of the article is Israeli Gershon Baskin and the link is a bit about him

http://www.ipcri.org/files/gbcv.html