Hamas releases footage of 'Gaza clashes'

[Swede]

In the events on Friday, Maj. Eliraz Peretz and Staff Sgt. Ilan Sviatkovsky were killed in the Gaza Strip while pursuing a group of Palestinian militants trying to lay mines near the border fence. Two other soldiers were injured in the incident, and two militants were killed.

The Hamas website says that in the video, it is possible to see "the Special Forces (IDF soldiers) crossing outside the border area and then seen advancing westward. The forces get injured by Iz al-Din al-Qassam forces and then rescue forces come and evacuate the killed and injured soldiers."




http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1160165.html

[aquart]

1. Mining borders. What fun.

And what conclusion are we supposed to draw from this?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

2. That Palestinians aren't going to lay down like sheep?

That no matter how many of them Israel murders, they won't give up?
That they have the right to defend themselves?

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

6. If Palestinians did everything the Israeli government demanded

The IDF would kill all Palestinians. The military wing of the state has shown, over and over again, that it doesn't see Palestinians as human beings(Palestinians, for their part, don't collectively dehumanize Israelis).

You're the sort that still thinks it's a legitimate objective to PREVENT the Palestinians from having their own state. Or at least making it as small as possible, which is the same thing, since we all know that no state smaller than Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem could survive.

[pelsar]

13. you figured it out....i thought it was secret....

i just came back from training where were taught how best to kill all Palestinians, but we were told its a secret. How did you find out?

so tell me "o wise one" from where is your knowledge (ever notice how you never answer that one?...i would think that with your imagination you could at least come up with something.....Cpt Kirk told you?)

[azurnoir]

16. well let's see

are you denying that IDF troops are not taught the best way to kill?

[pelsar]

17. nah too obvious.....

this post of yours was a little more like the "have you stopped beating your wife" kind of question- a bit to obvious, your usually much better at it.

yes, some of the soldiers in the IDF are taught to kill enemy soldiers in a war environment. Perhaps you would like to manipulate that into something like:

IDF soldiers love to kill Palestinians and can't wait to cut of their ears and make necklaces out of them as is their tradition....if your going to be "true to form" you'll raise that into a question where there is some possibility that it might actually be true.....

I'll wait, but do better than the previous one....way too obvious.

-----------
btw its passover, i missed your subtle hint that maybe we kill christian/muslim children and drink their blood, i haven't been around DU that much, so perhaps you can link me to that post of yours?

[Ken Burch]

20. He wasn't making any such hint.

n/t.

[azurnoir]

24. No Pelsar was being insulting on another score

ps I am a she

[Ken Burch]

25. ok. sorry.

n/t.

[pelsar]

28. not insulted ...amused

it took me a while, about a year or so, to notice the subtle hints at our depravity...never written clearly by you.... like ken over here, no...your posts just raise the question that maybe, perhaps, it could be, that we are just a bunch of blood thirsty people. Sometimes it can be a fact stated in such a way as to hint that somehow IDF soldiers are different from others i.e racists...and to answer you is to fall into that trap....

like the last one:

heres the system:
yes some IDF soldiers are taught the best way to kill......... and then we back up to Kens accusation: The IDF would kill all Palestinians

and together we have combination that IDF soldiers are taught the best way to kill Palestinians. The obvious racist accusation in the combo is that Killing Palestinians is a special skill developed by the IDF, as opposed to being the standard army that learns to kill an "anonymous enemy" on the battlefield.
-----

Ken...you should take a few lessons, here, your much to obvious in your accusations, it serves the anti israel, anti semetic, anti colonial, anti democratic anti immigration, pro religious fanatics crowd much better . Please note I am not accusing anybody here of that list, i'm just listing that it will help those who do believe in those things.

[azurnoir]

23. We who Israeli's? n/t

[shira]

21. Bloodthirsty IDF? Nice. Real nice.

The casualty numbers are much higher for NATO forces, the USA, and UK in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm wondering if Ken would ever describe those forces using the same language. :eyes:

[Violet_Crumble]

18. No, she wasn't defending Hamas at all...

I've seen so many 'supporters' of Israel in this forum insist that Israel can do what it wants along its borders (in fact, in the case of the Green Line, way beyond that into the West Bank) in the name of self-defence. If Israel wanted to lay mines and booby-traps along its border with Gaza, there'd be full support for it from posters here, so if the Palestinians want to do the same thing along their border, then the same logic should apply and as long as they do it along their border, it should be totally acceptable. AFter all, everyone has the right to self-defence, not just Israel...

[pelsar]

14. so how does that work?

there is a blockade by egypt and israel because they are smuggling in weapons used to try to kill israelis......so they try to kill israelis in order to remove the blockade..

.....i'm sure there is some logic in there somewhere, its just not western.

[azurnoir]

3. were they on the Israeli side of the fence?

is your contention that the Palestinians have no right to self defense?

[Alamuti Lotus]

5. "self-defense" is the privilege of certain parties only.. *nt

[Ken Burch]

7. Indeed. In the eyes of the DU Likudniks, all Palestinians are obligated to be lambs

to the slaughter.

[proteus_lives]

8. Indeed. In the eyes of the DU Palestinian apologists, all Israelis are obligated to give up their

right to defend themselves.

[Ken Burch]

9. No. Just make it proportionate.

It's enough to make it "one for one", it doesn't have to be "ten for one", or more.

And it never had to include collective punishment like the roadblocks that made life miserable for all Palestinians, whether or not they as individuals had done anything.

There's no serious way that you can argue that OCL was necessary for Israel's survival.

[pelsar]

12. one for one?....so if they kill unarmed israelis....

with their kassams or by getting past the border fence and kill two children..

you point of view states, that in return, the Palestinians should bring to israel two children, line them up and then some IDF soldiers should kill them. Would that be proportionate?

exactly two children for two children.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

29. Proportionate to the number saved, not to the number killed!

I think that to a large extent the philosophy underlying Israeli military actions against Palestinians *is* vengeance rather than prevention, but it certainly ought not to be.

What "proportionality" means is not "are we killing more of them than they are killing of us", it's "is this action saving more lives than it costs".

There is something of a link between that and "are we killing more of them than they are killing of us" inasmuch as "how many of us are they killing" is a useful data point as to "how many of us are they likely to kill in the future", but it's an indirect link only.

The objection to e.g. OCL is not that it killed far more innocent Palestinians than the Palestinians had killed innocent Israelis in the past, but that since it killed far more innocent Palestinians than there was any chance of the Palestinians killing Israelis in the future it must have killed *far* more than the difference between the number of innocent Israelis killed if it had not taken place and the number killed since it did.

[azurnoir]

11. Oh the projection

it is truely amazing that posters on a liberal Democratic board would resort to such Bushian tactics

[proteus_lives]

15. Yeah, Palestinian apologists are all about projection.

[azurnoir]

26. Ah ha yet more projection but that's OK

I understand

[Donald Ian Rankin]

22. All Israelis are obligated to limit themselves to defending themselves.

In particular, they have an obligation to limit themselves to hanging on to their own country; the use of military force to prolong an illegal occupation is not "defence".

[Ken Burch]

27. Well said.

n/t.

[Scurrilous]

10. Yeah, what fun...

Israel's deadly legacy still lurks in Lebanon

<snip>

"Nearly four years after Israel littered southern Lebanon with mines during its devastating war with Hezbollah, teenager Mohammed al-Hajj Mussa can barely bring himself to speak of the day he lost his legs.

On August 11, 2006, the lean, dark-haired boy was riding behind his father on a motorbike to deliver food to a nearby town badly hit in the Israeli raids when a cluster bomb went off under one of the tyres.

"Later, I was told that I was found in a creek about four hours after the explosion," Mohammed, now 15, told AFP at his rundown home in the Palestinian refugee camp of Al-Bass, located in the southern coastal town of Tyre.

"I came to when they were pulling me out of the water, and I knew it. I could see my legs falling apart."

That same night, the UN Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1701 calling for an end to the hostilities and three days later, the month-long war was over.

But Israel left a deadly legacy: the United Nations estimates that Israeli jets dropped more than four million cluster bombs in southern Lebanon in the summer battles.

Ninety percent of the bombs were dropped in the final 72 hours before the ceasefire after Resolution 1701 was adopted, the United Nations says.

Around 40 percent of the munitions failed to detonate on impact, rendering them de facto anti-personnel mines.

The munitions have killed 46 and maimed over 300 civilians since 2006, according to Lebanese army and UN figures.

Most of the victims are sappers, farmers and unsuspecting children, who mistake the shiny objects for toys."

more

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Apparently it's okay for Israel to do it n/t